I think the objections on the mana base are valid. In my opinion, to run this deck efficiently enough to be relevant, we have to either 1) push a color to tertiary and cut down on the scrylands (remember: scrylands force us to play more shocks untapped), or 2) we have to cut down on the low curve double cost cards such as Anger, Brimaz and Downfall. I've chosen the former, and I've cut white down to 2x Sin Collector, 4x Blood Baron, 2x Helix and 2x Elspeth, which means I've given up on Chained, Brimaz ++ for the sake of playing Anger and Downfall reliably on turn three and Thoughtseize as early as possible, and not shock myself 6-8 every single game.
This is my current mana base for your consideration.
I can promise you that this runs smoothly, but I'll leave to you to decide whether it's worth the cutbacks on white. I think it is.
Edit:
We had 100 pages of testing, tournament results, card discussions and different takes on the deck, and here OP has thrown it all right out of the window and started off with a completely different deck list that, for many reasons explored and explained in the other thread, just doesn't work well enough. Not even a link back to Kamahl's thread. OP's list is a fresh take, and I really do appreciate that, but I'd regard it as just that: A fresh take, not a summary of the only direction this deck can go in. That's not how the Dega midrange thread of this forum should start out imho.
I'm currently playing with BWR Mid/Control with the addition of Purphoros + creature entering the battlefield. I'm posting here my current list so fell free to comment.
Here is our fundamental difference. I will preface this by saying that this is my opinion. You cannot make a competent control deck out of these colors. We lack both card advantage and synergies. Our ability to grind out long games is very limited. Mono Black Devotion has some incredibly powerful synergies that grind out games with multiple Gray Merchants and card advantage from Nightveil Specter Underworld Connections. I consider this one of the control/aggro-control decks in the meta. U/W/x Control has a plethora of card advantages engines in Jace, Architect of Thought, Supreme Verdict on 2 or more creatures, and the almighty Sphinx's Revelation. There are others decks as well, like Bant Superfriends, but these are the main players in the format for good reason. Our color combination either does not have access to these cards (Blue card Advantage) or can use them albeit in poorer circumstances (ie. Pack Rats and Underworld Connections). Think back to the old B/W/R decks. They were definitely more control based. They contained many synergies, mostly revolving around the graveyard/discard and Boros Reckoner/Blasphemous Act, and could create card advantage through those same options, Blasphemous Act 2 or more creatures and Faithless Looting combined discard, flashback, and recursion. Those are something we lack currently. What are our advantages? We have extremely efficient and powerful creatures. We have some of the best point-and-click, one-for-one removal. We also have a variety of options to attack the metagame at unique angles. If you want to make a B/W/R control deck (or even aggro-control), I will stop chastising your choices, but I feel as it is just simply an inferior choice compared to other control-like decks in the format. This is why I choose to explore aggressive options. It utilizes our strengths and maximizes our potential in both theorycraft and in my testing against the current metagame.
Edit: I think these two approaches may belong in different threads.
I don't think that I agree all that much with you here. For starters I think that the synergy that mono-B gets with Gray Merchant is not necessarily a strong thing for a control shell since control decks usually want to have finishers that are unconditional. Moreover, I think that it is fairly accepted that the B/W deck is a control deck in the sense that it is Mono-B except that it has just replaced Gray Merchant with Blood Baron and thrown in some Elspeth. So I don't think Gray Merchant, Underworld Connections, and Nightveil Specter are the things that are holding Mono-B as a control deck.
The fact that we don't have access to as many X for Ones as Sphinx control is not ideal. Control decks do want some X for Ones so that they can get card advantage, no doubt. We do have, however, read the bones (which I think is better than Underworld unless you want the devotion), Merciless Eviction (albeit a little slow) and Rakdos's Return. Beyond that, if you really were looking to get over on your opponent you could play Sin Collector, which I'm not a fan of but that is not this discussion. All in all I think we have some avenues to card advantage if you wanted it.
So I do think there are some relatively decent control options for our colors. I don't think that we are going to agree on Pack Rat which is fine. But just as a note, the only differences between the deck that you posted and the deck that I posted were essentially that I'm not running Reckoners main, I don't have Brimaz or Helix in my deck. Instead I have Pack Rat, more Downfalls and Traveler's Amulet for mana consistency. The decks really aren't all that dissimilar so I think this is just coming down to semantics of deck building and how we are playing our respective decks. All I'm saying is that I'm not sure there is a need for a new thread based on the differences between our decks.
Ratchet Bomb is a cheap answer to a resolved Master of Waves, Pack Rat and allot of the shenanigans that is GW aggro. It's versatility i what makes it compliment other removal so well.
Cool, thanks. I'll definitely have to check it out. Though I don't see myself as running more than 1 of them. I think that it is a good option that doesn't strain color problems though.
I think the objections on the mana base are valid. In my opinion, to run this deck efficiently enough to be relevant, we have to either 1) push a color to tertiary and cut down on the scrylands (remember: scrylands force us to play more shocks untapped), or 2) we have to cut down on the low curve double cost cards such as Anger, Brimaz and Downfall. I've chosen the former, and I've cut white down to 2x Sin Collector, 4x Blood Baron, 2x Helix and 2x Elspeth, which means I've given up on Chained, Brimaz ++ for the sake of playing Anger and Downfall reliably on turn three and Thoughtseize as early as possible, and not shock myself 6-8 every single game.
This is my current mana base for your consideration.
I can promise you that this runs smoothly, but I'll leave to you to decide whether it's worth the cutbacks on white. I think it is.
I agree with you about cutting back on scry lands. I personally advocate running strong in one color, having a good complimentary color and then lightly splashing the last one. And then only playing 4 scry lands of the strong and complimentary color. Personally I'm running BW and splashing red for dreadbore and Rakdos's Return essentially. Anger of the Gods is on the fence right now. Either way. I think that black is clearly the strong primary color and it is better to splash/cut red than to cut white. I think that the advantages that you get from white are too much greater (Blood Baron, Elspeth, Brimaz, Thune) than the contributions from red (Stormbreath Dragon, Anger of the Gods). I'm not considering R/W cards here since those wouldn't matter which you are splashing.
We had 100 pages of testing, tournament results, card discussions and different takes on the deck, and here OP has thrown it all right out of the window and started off with a completely different deck list that, for many reasons explored and explained in the other thread, just doesn't work well enough. Not even a link back to Kamahl's thread. OP's list is a fresh take, and I really do appreciate that, but I'd regard it as just that: A fresh take, not a summary of the only direction this deck can go in. That's not how the Dega midrange thread of this forum should start out imho.
If you are curious about where I talked about the differences in those things you can check out post #8 here in this thread. I started, and intend to finish though we'll see, a primer that is in line with the discussions that were taking place in the old thread. I was semi-infrequently active in the old thread (I was in and out posting every couple of weeks/months) but I did read most of that thread and have a fairly decent (in my opinion) understanding of the deck. I've been testing and playing with this deck since Theros rotated in. Either way, there is a look towards the old thread in my post here in this thread. Granted it is not as general as you might be looking for, I do discuss a lot of different cards and my thoughts on them. Including the manabase (ignore the mutavault inclusion as much, but I was right, it is the first thing brought up when I want to include Pack Rat in the deck even though I think Pack Rat is strong enough without the mutavault, either way).
I'm currently playing with BWR Mid/Control with the addition of Purphoros + creature entering the battlefield. I'm posting here my current list so fell free to comment.
For starters I think that if you want to abuse the Purphoros trigger, then you need to have more cards that do that so it will be a consistent game plan. Right now, only having 2 Purphoros makes it an inconsistent draw. I would probably jump that to 3. Outside of that you only have 5-ish Purhporos enablers (2 Assemble, 2 Ghost Dad, and 1 Elspeth). This leaves the draw for your plan extremely inconsistent. You could easily get one piece without the other. I would up that to 4 Assemble and at least 2 Elspeth, though I'm an advocate of 3. You need to up those because you aren't playing enough other creatures to get the real value out of Purphoros (only 4 Reckoners and 1 Sin Collector). You could easily see in a game, 1 Purphoros, 2 Reckoners and the rest being spells (that are not Assemble or Elspeth) with your current numbers. Since Purphoros doesn't really do anything on his own I'm against it (I don't like conditional finishers, see almost any other post in the thread for explanation) but if that is the plan you want then you need to make it the ut-most consistent.
Also, you should not be playing anger of the gods main. Not only does it wipe your board, there also are not enough decks in the meta that you would capitalize on with a maindeck Anger. I talk about this elsewhere as well.
I would bring Thoughtseize to 4, I think that is in an all or nothing proposition. Reducing the numbers to guard against drawing it late game only insures that you have a worse chance drawing it when you need it (T1-4).
I'm not sure I would play 2 ratchet bombs in the main, but again I don't have a lot of testing with this card in the meta. I'm not sure how it would perform in your deck.
With the mana you are in a tricky situation. I think that you need to have 2 colors that you rely on and then splash the third. If you want to play Obzedat then I think the two colors would be B and W. However that leaves red to just being a splash, yet your deck revolves around having red. In that sense you might want to be playing RWb, splashing only for Thoughtseize, Blood Barons maybe, and Dreadbore. As much as I like Downfalls, if you are just splashing B then I think that they should be cut. Thoughtseize is also a suspect splash. That might also need to go.
Some other cards I would consider if I were in this plan would be: Boros Charm, Young Pyromancer, and definitely Pack Rat (though again, a suspect splash).
You want cards that can either protect your creature advancement or cards that can create creatures out of nothing.
In that sense I would be running a manabase looking like this
and would entertain running traveler's amulet so that you could guarantee getting the colors you need when you want them. I wouldn't run scry lands that are not in your 2 main colors. This is the same for shock lands. The only reason I would say run 4 blood crypt is because you need the mountains for chained to the rocks while still having access to black.
For starters I think that if you want to abuse the Purphoros trigger, then you need to have more cards that do that so it will be a consistent game plan. Right now, only having 2 Purphoros makes it an inconsistent draw. I would probably jump that to 3. Outside of that you only have 5-ish Purhporos enablers (2 Assemble, 2 Ghost Dad, and 1 Elspeth). This leaves the draw for your plan extremely inconsistent. You could easily get one piece without the other. I would up that to 4 Assemble and at least 2 Elspeth, though I'm an advocate of 3. You need to up those because you aren't playing enough other creatures to get the real value out of Purphoros (only 4 Reckoners and 1 Sin Collector). You could easily see in a game, 1 Purphoros, 2 Reckoners and the rest being spells (that are not Assemble or Elspeth) with your current numbers. Since Purphoros doesn't really do anything on his own I'm against it (I don't like conditional finishers, see almost any other post in the thread for explanation) but if that is the plan you want then you need to make it the ut-most consistent.
Also, you should not be playing anger of the gods main. Not only does it wipe your board, there also are not enough decks in the meta that you would capitalize on with a maindeck Anger. I talk about this elsewhere as well.
I would bring Thoughtseize to 4, I think that is in an all or nothing proposition. Reducing the numbers to guard against drawing it late game only insures that you have a worse chance drawing it when you need it (T1-4).
I'm not sure I would play 2 ratchet bombs in the main, but again I don't have a lot of testing with this card in the meta. I'm not sure how it would perform in your deck.
With the mana you are in a tricky situation. I think that you need to have 2 colors that you rely on and then splash the third. If you want to play Obzedat then I think the two colors would be B and W. However that leaves red to just being a splash, yet your deck revolves around having red. In that sense you might want to be playing RWb, splashing only for Thoughtseize, Blood Barons maybe, and Dreadbore. As much as I like Downfalls, if you are just splashing B then I think that they should be cut. Thoughtseize is also a suspect splash. That might also need to go.
Some other cards I would consider if I were in this plan would be: Boros Charm, Young Pyromancer, and definitely Pack Rat (though again, a suspect splash).
You want cards that can either protect your creature advancement or cards that can create creatures out of nothing.
In that sense I would be running a manabase looking like this
and would entertain running traveler's amulet so that you could guarantee getting the colors you need when you want them. I wouldn't run scry lands that are not in your 2 main colors. This is the same for shock lands. The only reason I would say run 4 blood crypt is because you need the mountains for chained to the rocks while still having access to black.
Those are just my two cents though.
Thank you for your comments, I'm new with this archetype and your cooments shows that you have a lot more experience. I've made some changes and now the list looks like that
I run one in the main and one in the SB. It is moderately useful on occasion. When it works it feels really good.
I've been wanting to MB 1-2 ench/artifact hate spells, but I'm having a hard time deciding, so help me out please:
1) Do you find that RE hits gods often enough for it to not be replaced by Wear/Tear?
2) Dy you find that RE hits non-artifact enchantments often enough for it to not be replaced by Shattering Blow?
Sometimes I'm thinking that [edit: the lack of] a maindeckable enchantment hate card, such as Mortify or O-Ring, is what keeps this deck at "very good" instead of "almost-top tier". Bident of Thassa and Underworld Connections hurts so bad, especially if a key strategy is to use Rakdos's Return/Sin Collector/Thoughtseize to get your opponent in top deck mode. If I could have an answer to those cards that wasn't otherwise dead, it would be incredible.
There is a crazy amount of strategic variation between different deck lists in this thread. This shell can go in so many directions, so your mileage may vary, but I strongly believe that shredding your opponent's hand with Sin Collector and Thoughtseize, and then Rakdos's Return, is crucial in (my variation of) this deck. That's the direction I'm trying to take this in. I know some of you will disagree on Return, but in my experience it's only bad against the occational aggro matchup, and even then it's not that bad, you can always at least go 1-for-1 in game 1 and side it out. If you're using Anger of the Gods, Warleader's Helix and Boros Reckoner, the general aggro matchup is pretty much a non-issue anyway. In all the other matchups, Return wins games unless your opponent has reliable card draw. That last bit is the big issue here.
If you're regularly succeeding in emptying your opponent's hand by turn 4-5-6, Stormbreath Dragon is suddenly highly playable in this deck because you know that they can't deal with it unless they luck out and top deck some removal. You get at least a few hits in before Dragon gets hit, and sometimes it doesn't, but if it does, you should have Blood Baron or Elspeth out by then to finish the deal. But then there's Bident and Underworld Connections. Those are the cards I pick with Thoughtseize 99% of the time if I get the chance, but TS alone isn't reliable enough. With no reliable way to take those two cards out after they stick, Rakdos's Return isn't as good, which in turn means that my removable creatures aren't as good as they should either. If we could have a maindeckable answer to Bident and UC, I feel that this deck would really click.
Lastly, a quick note about Anger of the Gods. This is another thing that is probably going to be met with some disagreement, but I've had great success with 2-3 Anger in the main. Yes, it is completely dead against UW/Esper control, and has to be sided out in that matchup. But it wins me games against U-devotion that I'd otherwise lose. It makes any other aggro/weenie build look utterly ridiculous. It often wipes 3+ mana dorks. And against B-devotion it's not incredible, sure, but it's at the very least a 1-for-1 every time; it reliably kills Pack Rat (that's a big deal) and it takes out Nightveil Specter. With Reckoner it also takes down Desecration Demon in a pinch, though Reckoner rarely sticks against B-dev, though when it happens, DD is exiled and can't be brought back with Whip. But generally, if you're not running a lot of x/<4 creatures yourself (and that's a big if), it's a 2+-for-1 a lot more often than it's dead, and it's not that bad as a 1-for-1. Don't be so quick to write it off; it's good in some variations of this deck, bad in others.
I run one in the main and one in the SB. It is moderately useful on occasion. When it works it feels really good.
I've been wanting to MB 1-2 ench/artifact hate spells, but I'm having a hard time deciding, so help me out please:
1) Do you find that RE hits gods often enough for it to not be replaced by Wear/Tear?
2) Dy you find that RE hits non-artifact enchantments often enough for it to not be replaced by Shattering Blow?
1. I definitely find the ability to exile indestructible gods worth one extra mana over Tear, especially in a midrange deck.
2. Since enchantments in this block are a problem way more often than artifacts, a thousand times yes.
Neither of those cards do everything you'd want it to do. Revoke Existence hits enchantments, gods, some creatures, and a rare Pithing Needle should it come up. I find myself boarding it in on most games.
I run one in the main and one in the SB. It is moderately useful on occasion. When it works it feels really good.
I've been wanting to MB 1-2 ench/artifact hate spells, but I'm having a hard time deciding, so help me out please:
1) Do you find that RE hits gods often enough for it to not be replaced by Wear/Tear?
2) Dy you find that RE hits non-artifact enchantments often enough for it to not be replaced by Shattering Blow?
Sometimes I'm thinking that [edit: the lack of] a maindeckable enchantment hate card, such as Mortify or O-Ring, is what keeps this deck at "very good" instead of "almost-top tier". Bident of Thassa and Underworld Connections hurts so bad, especially if a key strategy is to use Rakdos's Return/Sin Collector/Thoughtseize to get your opponent in top deck mode. If I could have an answer to those cards that wasn't otherwise dead, it would be incredible.
There is a crazy amount of strategic variation between different deck lists in this thread. This shell can go in so many directions, so your mileage may vary, but I strongly believe that shredding your opponent's hand with Sin Collector and Thoughtseize, and then Rakdos's Return, is crucial in (my variation of) this deck. That's the direction I'm trying to take this in. I know some of you will disagree on Return, but in my experience it's only bad against the occational aggro matchup, and even then it's not that bad, you can always at least go 1-for-1 in game 1 and side it out. If you're using Anger of the Gods, Warleader's Helix and Boros Reckoner, the general aggro matchup is pretty much a non-issue anyway. In all the other matchups, Return wins games unless your opponent has reliable card draw. That last bit is the big issue here.
If you're regularly succeeding in emptying your opponent's hand by turn 4-5-6, Stormbreath Dragon is suddenly highly playable in this deck because you know that they can't deal with it unless they luck out and top deck some removal. You get at least a few hits in before Dragon gets hit, and sometimes it doesn't, but if it does, you should have Blood Baron or Elspeth out by then to finish the deal. But then there's Bident and Underworld Connections. Those are the cards I pick with Thoughtseize 99% of the time if I get the chance, but TS alone isn't reliable enough. With no reliable way to take those two cards out after they stick, Rakdos's Return isn't as good, which in turn means that my removable creatures aren't as good as they should either. If we could have a maindeckable answer to Bident and UC, I feel that this deck would really click.
Lastly, a quick note about Anger of the Gods. This is another thing that is probably going to be met with some disagreement, but I've had great success with 2-3 Anger in the main. Yes, it is completely dead against UW/Esper control, and has to be sided out in that matchup. But it wins me games against U-devotion that I'd otherwise lose. It makes any other aggro/weenie build look utterly ridiculous. It often wipes 3+ mana dorks. And against B-devotion it's not incredible, sure, but it's at the very least a 1-for-1 every time; it reliably kills Pack Rat (that's a big deal) and it takes out Nightveil Specter. With Reckoner it also takes down Desecration Demon in a pinch, though Reckoner rarely sticks against B-dev, though when it happens, DD is exiled and can't be brought back with Whip. But generally, if you're not running a lot of x/<4 creatures yourself (and that's a big if), it's a 2+-for-1 a lot more often than it's dead, and it's not that bad as a 1-for-1. Don't be so quick to write it off; it's good in some variations of this deck, bad in others.
I ran Wear/Tear before BNG, but I switched over to Revoke Existence as soon as I could, yes, for the ability to hit Gods before they become creatures. That use alone outweighs the small disadvantage in sorcery-speed.
Regarding Rakdos's Return, I also have run it in different Dega decks. In this devotion-centric world, however, my current deck runs Pack Rat, which seems to measure up in a very good way to most Blue and Green-based devotion decks. With Pack Rat, I am usually holding excess lands rather than playing them, which runs counter to getting a big RR, so I have taken it out.
Lastly, I agree with you on running Anger of the Gods in the main. I have been experimenting with Bile Blight in its place, but Anger is just better, if your mana base can handle it.
Regarding Rakdos's Return, I also have run it in different Dega decks. In this devotion-centric world, however, my current deck runs Pack Rat, which seems to measure up in a very good way to most Blue and Green-based devotion decks. With Pack Rat, I am usually holding excess lands rather than playing them, which runs counter to getting a big RR, so I have taken it out.
A perfect example of what I mean. I might guess that if you're running Rat and not Return, you're not running Stormbreath Dragon or Elspeth either, at least not in significant numbers? Some cards exclude others in these builds.
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So I stepped away from this deck towards the end of born of the gods, but funny enough I played BW control online preBNG and have been playing BR postBNG and have been testing RW a bit. The two I've played online feel way better than BWR already and after playing them I think I can pin down why.
I don't think this deck's mana base has to be much worse or worse at all than a 2 color deck's manabase. I really don't think mana consistency should be the issue as long as you use common sense. Like don't expect to support double black, double red, and double white early at the same time. So then what do you actually sacrifice when you go 3 colors? Basic lands and mutavault. If you're not aggressive, you probably don't mind playing a few tapped lands that let you dig deeper, but a removal spell one turn later might mean you're taking an extra 3 damage you didn't have to or didn't get to play a that important permanent before dissolve mana is up. Then there are shock lands. If you are trying to play a mono black underworld connections type of strategy you are just making your job way harder by occasionally doing 2 damage to yourself.
I also found in playing the three 2 color decks that make up this deck, that there wasn't a whole lot I wanted from the color I was missing. Admittedly BR could use some of white's side board cards, BW could perhaps take more aggressive creatures from red, and RW could use black's removal, but for the most part all the cards that worked well together were already in those colors. I think trying to cram all these "good cards" into one deck doesn't actually work that well because the cards aren't actually that great and they don't really work towards a unified strategy. I guess there's the idea of playing a controlling game and then winning with our amazing bombs, but our bombs are not that good on their own. Stormbreath wants to be in a deck that can generate mana or where he's topping an aggressive curve. Blood Baron is situationally good, but he's amazing coming out of the sideboard for decks you actually want him against. Elspeth is actually always good, but you need a tighter control deck to actually get to her and protect her. That and the only reliable card advantage engine in these colors is underworld connections, which becomes a lot worse without gray merchant to help you stablize. BW does do the same thing without gray merchant, but they also run fewer shock lands and I think mono black is probably overall better at that strategy, but being BW gives you an edge against black decks and also elspeth is a really good card.
My only suggestion could be to find real synergies in the three colors that pushes it beyond decks that exist with less restrictive mana bases.
tl:dr version:
1. I think you can work around mana consistency, but you can't work around having to run scry and shock lands and not getting mutavault.
2. There's doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to play these 3 colors since the third color doesn't add anything that synergizes with the first two.
3. Trying to play control style just makes us a worse BW and an even worse mono black.
Had a game vs U/W control. My decklist is spotty at best (revoke/aotg main. couple of them). Seized a Verdict T1. Game went on a few turns. T6 he jaced for two and took nothing special. Next turn he did it again took a Aetherling. My Turn and I seized it. He quit after that. : P
Needs a definitive shell to work properly. White 1st, Black 2nd, Red 3rd. The AotG is sketchy, but works ok.
Anxious to see what JIN brings to it.
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Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
1) The deck is undefined. Since the OP and most of the posters strays far away from the previously well-established Mythic/Dega Midrange shell, people in this thread discuss pretty much any deck in these colors. That means there's not much to discuss, everyone is posting what they want to play, and get no replies because it's not the same deck that the other posters want to play. Just look at the deck lists, you'll see anything from Purphoros to Spike Jester, Master of Cruelties and Ash Zealot. Nobody even mentioned aggro or devotion in the previous thread, the deck lists were pretty consistent.
2) Orzhov Midrange/Control is doing very well right now. I can imagine that it cannibalizes on this deck because its strategy is similar, more streamlined (and more boring imho) and it doesn't have to deal with balancing three colors.
3) Post quality declined significantly in this subforum when it stopped being restricted to Competitive members after the forum redesign. The discussion is no longer competitively oriented, which makes it less attractive for competitive players, who would have the most to contibrute to a thread like this. You pretty much didn't see people posting untested deck lists in the previous thread.
I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, just calling it like I see it. I wasn't a Competitive member myself, so I'm just like you.
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What do you guys think about Chandra? I have been running 3 and I would say anything less is criminal! She gives you so much value through card advantage. Also, her ability to stop blockers is really good for punching through damage.
I'm currently working on a strict control deck. Especially with a preference towards winning through attrition. Thoughtseize, Rakdos Return, Sin Collector, etc.
For win conditions i have 2 Elspeth, 2 Blood Baron 2 Assemble the Legion.
I might want to incorporate whip + obzedat but i feel a though that would require a gross amount of creatures I dont want.
Also, Boros Reckoner is no longer a valid card in standard in my opinion. The UW decks verdict him away and disregard him. The GR decks now splash black for removal and also just get too big for him. Mono U is way better in pretty much all ways. Master is immune to him. The flyers ignore it, and tidebinder taps it. Mono B mainboards lifebanes, bile blights, and doomblades now so he isnt valid.
Brimaz might be better but the removal is still way to good for grindy creatures.
What do you guys think about Chandra? I have been running 3 and I would say anything less is criminal! She gives you so much value through card advantage. Also, her ability to stop blockers is really good for punching through damage.
I'm currently working on a strict control deck. Especially with a preference towards winning through attrition. Thoughtseize, Rakdos Return, Sin Collector, etc.
For win conditions i have 2 Elspeth, 2 Blood Baron 2 Assemble the Legion.
I might want to incorporate whip + obzedat but i feel a though that would require a gross amount of creatures I dont want.
Also, Boros Reckoner is no longer a valid card in standard in my opinion. The UW decks verdict him away and disregard him. The GR decks now splash black for removal and also just get too big for him. Mono U is way better in pretty much all ways. Master is immune to him. The flyers ignore it, and tidebinder taps it. Mono B mainboards lifebanes, bile blights, and doomblades now so he isnt valid.
Brimaz might be better but the removal is still way to good for grindy creatures.
I tried a Dega control-style deck (I used all of the cards you have listed, with the exception of Whip), but it just didn't work out. Maybe you will have better luck.
The problems were basically two-fold. The first was that a Dega control shell has no real way to prevent a spell from resolving, you have to either make them discard it or remove it after it is played. That means that you have to run a ton of varied answers, from 1-for-1 removal, sweepers for little guys, enchantment/artifact/plainswalker removal, and so forth. Dega certainly has all of those tools available, but with a big consistency issue -- the "draw the right answer at the right time" problem.
The second issue is of course the mana. Without green, you not only have to draw the right answer, you have to have the right colors to cast that answer. Having all 3 Temples certainly helps, but over a long tournament you will give up a few games to your mana problems.
Don't get me wrong -- when the deck was drawing well, it was great. For a FMN or a small tournament, it may work out well for you, but the overall consistency issues are tough. Good luck!
2) Orzhov Midrange/Control is doing very well right now. I can imagine that it cannibalizes on this deck because its strategy is similar, more streamlined (and more boring imho) and it doesn't have to deal with balancing three colors.
Indeed, this is what I've switched to for the past month or so. I have found it to be doing most of what I tried to do in Dega colors just a little better. Boros Reckoner was one of my main draws to running these colors, and ever since I stopped running that card I've been lessening my Red to the point where I just decided to swap out my removal for more Doom Blade and Ultimate Price and go 2 color.
Bant Walkers, however, is a fairly popular pet deck at my LGS for some reason, and the lack of Dreadbore is definitely noticeable there. I'm not certain how often most people run across it, though.
I'm sticking with Dega Midrange/Control, with or without a good support thread. Some of the red cards are too good to pass up. Stormbreath Dragon complements Blood Baron perfectly, Dragon wins the games that Baron doesn't. And Rakdos's Return and Anger of the Gods are really good right now. My current list is closer to Rakdos than Orzhov, but some of the white cards are crucial.
No Reckoner, no Brimaz, no Zombie
I find that running no or almost no creatures <4CMC leaves my opponent with a lot of dead removal in hand, which is a huge advantage. Anger of the Gods, Bile Blight, Lighting Strike, Magma Jet and Drown in Sorrow are all pretty much dead cards against this decklist, and that's on top of all the white removal that doesn't hit Dragon or Baron (or Elspeth except Sphere). I'm not counting Sin Collector, because if they remove him, I'm still 2-for-1. I suppose you could say the same about Lifebane Zombie, but only if he actually hits something in the hand, which makes him a sideboard option. Since I'm not playing Zombie for the aggressive 3/1, I'd rather kill those creatures after they land than play the hand lottery.
A very nice perk with running no or almost no creatures <4CMC is Haunted Plate Mail. I know how janky it looks, I snubbed it for months myself, but try one if your deck allows it. Run no more than 2x. Play on turn 4, block on your opponent's turn, activate it in the pre-combat phase and either 1) play a Dragon and attack with both, or 2) attack with Plate Mail, play a Baron post-combat and equip it in your next pre-combat. Swinging with a 8/8 Baron often takes over the game. Mail is also good when you're struggling, since he sticks around when you've been Verdicted. (A quick note about running multiples: If you've got two out and no creatures, you can stack the 0 ability to make them both creatures. That works. The reason for not running more than 1-2 is that they're too slow by themselves, you won't really have time to equip more than one on another creatures. Also, they attract Spheres since Baron/Dragon have pro-white.)
Phoenix vs. Demon
I'm actually testing out Flame-Wreathed Phoenix instead of Desecration Demon, and I think I might like him better than Demon. They die to all the same removal, and the bird doesn't flunk out when you need it the most like Demon sometimes does. Phoenix' worst drawback is the Anger non-bo, and he's a 3/3 more often than I thought he would. Anyway, the jury's still out, so don't get caught up on that.
What draw?
I'm trying to get by without draw in the main. This is not the fastest of decks, but I usually don't feel like I've got a turn to spare to play a three-mana draw, I want to play answers or threats every turn. I like the idea of 1x/2x Bones in the main, but I feel like I'm rarely happy to see it in my hand. I side them in against control, and I'm generally happier with Bones than Connections when I'm not running Rat or devotion to black. No draw in the main means scry is more important, which makes Magma Jet better.
Anger of the Gods aggro players
I keep changing between 2x/3x/4x Anger in the main, I can't seem to decide. They are just so incredibly good in so many matchups, but when they're dead, they're dead, though they're only completely dead against UW/Esper. They're even moderately useful against MBD and G/R. 4x in the 75 without a doubt, and at least 2x in the main is good in my opinion. More Anger in the main means fewer Jets in the main, because only a limited amount of your removal can be damage and not destroy, there are a lot of fatties out there.
Slaughter Games - it actually slaughters games
2-3x Slaughter Games in the side wins certain matchups. Slaughtering Gray Merchant of Asphodel is the most satisfying thing to do in standard since the Reckoner + Blasphemous Act combo. They're good against UW/Esper too, let's see how those decks do without Ætherling and Rev.
A thought just popped into my head about using Whip of Erebos instead of Haunted Plate Mail. Maybe the whip in the sideboard instead of another plate mail? Just kind of writing what I'm thinking. The life gain would be pretty nice. Since there's no way of getting our creatures back, might as well flash 'em in, snag some life and do some damage. Blood Baron of Vizkopa has it already, but all of our other creatures having it too would be sweet. Even Elspeth, Sun's Champions soldier tokens with life link would be kind of neat. What do you think?
For Whip of Erebos to pull its weight, you need to play it for the revival ability and consider the lifelink as a bonus. My list runs too few creatures in the main for Whip to do enough; 8 revivable creatures (not counting Sin Collector because it doesn't to enough at that point in the game) is not enough, I might get to whip it once or twice in a game. At that rate, I'd wish I'd drawn another threat instead of the Whip.
I think about 16 whippable creatures would be an minimum to run Whip. With my current color balance, that would probably be 4x Reckoner, 4x Dragon, 4x Baron and 4x Demon/Phoenix. To make room for that, I'd have to cut enough Elspeth and/or removal/disruption to make room for the extra creatures and the whip(s), and I'm not particularly interested in neither, because Elspeth is too good to pass up and the answer package is just barely enough to keep up with RG and MUD as it is (though Reckoner mainboard would help a lot in those matchups).
Ghost Counsil would sweeten the deal significantly, of course, but then you'd have to play red as the tertiary color to support his cost, which makes Dragon hard to cast, Reckoner very unreliable, and Anger/Jet impossible to use. This would start to look a bit like Orzhov splash red.
Not saying that any or all of the above couldn't work, just that it's not an easy swap, you'd have to change the list significantly to make it work. I encourage you to try it out and report back.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
So I have recently returned to standard, having played Dega midrange in the past. I have had some fun playing around and I really like the idea of shifting our game to the end game.
At this point its obviosuyl a work in progess but against some of the teired field on cockatrice I'm doin pretty good. I think the best matchups are against the controlish decks. I have a great time against mono-black and those that splash. The eidelon really muddles with their life totals and they will typically answer it. I'm just not sure if it should be a set of 4 pack rats, but at least I force a couple of damage for them to remove it. Seems better, but not sure.
I've been running Dega midrange since rotation, and while I've had some decent success, I keep running into the UW control buzzsaw. I practically need to engineer my deck either solely to beat control, or to beat the rest of the field.
Against control decks, I cut anger of the gods, blind obedience, 2 lifebanes, and mizzium mortars (unless they're playing esper and have blood baron) and I bring in the duresses and slaughter games, plus revoke if I cut mortars. I still get steamrolled, and I'm not sure how I can play it any better.
Help?
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
He tried Aegis of the Gods recently as well to combat burn, but he hasn't faced our local burn players yet. He does very well against control and midrange. The only times he seems to struggle is against hyper aggro, but that seems to be a fading strategy. Hope this can help some of you.
Edit: On another note, you guys don't only have to run the good Anti-Control cards to beat control. Forcing control to answer a threat every turn will win you the game. Force them to answer with their mana and they can't be proactive. If they're constantly tapping out to not die, they're not Rev'ing and they're not playing walkers.
The best things you could do for dega is in the above post. Thoughtseize and Underworld Connections are your best weapons against control. Of course you could add a couple of Sin Collectors and maybe try 1 Sire of Insanity if control is really prevalent in your meta. But it is how you utilize Thoughtseize to help resolve your threats and how long you can keep your connections drawing you into threats that will help your matchups there.
Edit: On another note, you guys don't only have to run the good Anti-Control cards to beat control. Forcing control to answer a threat every turn will win you the game. Force them to answer with their mana and they can't be proactive. If they're constantly tapping out to not die, they're not Rev'ing and they're not playing walkers.
Here's the flaw in that logic. UW control has more answers than we have threats. (Doubly so if they're in black because of devour flesh to pick off blood baron or stormbreath) RG monsters' strength lies in that any one thing on the board can kill you, but the midrange build doesn't have that luxury - we're threat light and answer-heavy by the nature of the color combination. As long as we can't serve for lethal damage, they can sit back and wait to clear the board, and have enough mana to trade one-for-one the rest of the game.
There's a line of thinking to play the standard midrange stuff in the mainboard, and smokescreen into *****loads of burn as a countermeasure. I'm not entirely sure how that's be viable however - we'd need to devote a lot more maindeck spots to damage spells, as well as re-jiggering the mana base. Not sure how it'd work, really.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
This is my current mana base for your consideration.
I can promise you that this runs smoothly, but I'll leave to you to decide whether it's worth the cutbacks on white. I think it is.
Edit:
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I'm currently playing with BWR Mid/Control with the addition of Purphoros + creature entering the battlefield. I'm posting here my current list so fell free to comment.
4 Godless Shrine
2 Blood Crypt (will get 2 more)
3 Temple of Triumph
3 Temple of Silence
4 Swamp
4 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Sin Collector
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Read the Bones
4 Dreadbore
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Elspeth, Sun Champion
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Last Breath
2 Underworld Connections
2 Sin Collector
2 Dark Betrayal
I don't think that I agree all that much with you here. For starters I think that the synergy that mono-B gets with Gray Merchant is not necessarily a strong thing for a control shell since control decks usually want to have finishers that are unconditional. Moreover, I think that it is fairly accepted that the B/W deck is a control deck in the sense that it is Mono-B except that it has just replaced Gray Merchant with Blood Baron and thrown in some Elspeth. So I don't think Gray Merchant, Underworld Connections, and Nightveil Specter are the things that are holding Mono-B as a control deck.
The fact that we don't have access to as many X for Ones as Sphinx control is not ideal. Control decks do want some X for Ones so that they can get card advantage, no doubt. We do have, however, read the bones (which I think is better than Underworld unless you want the devotion), Merciless Eviction (albeit a little slow) and Rakdos's Return. Beyond that, if you really were looking to get over on your opponent you could play Sin Collector, which I'm not a fan of but that is not this discussion. All in all I think we have some avenues to card advantage if you wanted it.
So I do think there are some relatively decent control options for our colors. I don't think that we are going to agree on Pack Rat which is fine. But just as a note, the only differences between the deck that you posted and the deck that I posted were essentially that I'm not running Reckoners main, I don't have Brimaz or Helix in my deck. Instead I have Pack Rat, more Downfalls and Traveler's Amulet for mana consistency. The decks really aren't all that dissimilar so I think this is just coming down to semantics of deck building and how we are playing our respective decks. All I'm saying is that I'm not sure there is a need for a new thread based on the differences between our decks.
Cool, thanks. I'll definitely have to check it out. Though I don't see myself as running more than 1 of them. I think that it is a good option that doesn't strain color problems though.
I agree with you about cutting back on scry lands. I personally advocate running strong in one color, having a good complimentary color and then lightly splashing the last one. And then only playing 4 scry lands of the strong and complimentary color. Personally I'm running BW and splashing red for dreadbore and Rakdos's Return essentially. Anger of the Gods is on the fence right now. Either way. I think that black is clearly the strong primary color and it is better to splash/cut red than to cut white. I think that the advantages that you get from white are too much greater (Blood Baron, Elspeth, Brimaz, Thune) than the contributions from red (Stormbreath Dragon, Anger of the Gods). I'm not considering R/W cards here since those wouldn't matter which you are splashing.
If you are curious about where I talked about the differences in those things you can check out post #8 here in this thread. I started, and intend to finish though we'll see, a primer that is in line with the discussions that were taking place in the old thread. I was semi-infrequently active in the old thread (I was in and out posting every couple of weeks/months) but I did read most of that thread and have a fairly decent (in my opinion) understanding of the deck. I've been testing and playing with this deck since Theros rotated in. Either way, there is a look towards the old thread in my post here in this thread. Granted it is not as general as you might be looking for, I do discuss a lot of different cards and my thoughts on them. Including the manabase (ignore the mutavault inclusion as much, but I was right, it is the first thing brought up when I want to include Pack Rat in the deck even though I think Pack Rat is strong enough without the mutavault, either way).
For starters I think that if you want to abuse the Purphoros trigger, then you need to have more cards that do that so it will be a consistent game plan. Right now, only having 2 Purphoros makes it an inconsistent draw. I would probably jump that to 3. Outside of that you only have 5-ish Purhporos enablers (2 Assemble, 2 Ghost Dad, and 1 Elspeth). This leaves the draw for your plan extremely inconsistent. You could easily get one piece without the other. I would up that to 4 Assemble and at least 2 Elspeth, though I'm an advocate of 3. You need to up those because you aren't playing enough other creatures to get the real value out of Purphoros (only 4 Reckoners and 1 Sin Collector). You could easily see in a game, 1 Purphoros, 2 Reckoners and the rest being spells (that are not Assemble or Elspeth) with your current numbers. Since Purphoros doesn't really do anything on his own I'm against it (I don't like conditional finishers, see almost any other post in the thread for explanation) but if that is the plan you want then you need to make it the ut-most consistent.
Also, you should not be playing anger of the gods main. Not only does it wipe your board, there also are not enough decks in the meta that you would capitalize on with a maindeck Anger. I talk about this elsewhere as well.
I would bring Thoughtseize to 4, I think that is in an all or nothing proposition. Reducing the numbers to guard against drawing it late game only insures that you have a worse chance drawing it when you need it (T1-4).
I'm not sure I would play 2 ratchet bombs in the main, but again I don't have a lot of testing with this card in the meta. I'm not sure how it would perform in your deck.
With the mana you are in a tricky situation. I think that you need to have 2 colors that you rely on and then splash the third. If you want to play Obzedat then I think the two colors would be B and W. However that leaves red to just being a splash, yet your deck revolves around having red. In that sense you might want to be playing RWb, splashing only for Thoughtseize, Blood Barons maybe, and Dreadbore. As much as I like Downfalls, if you are just splashing B then I think that they should be cut. Thoughtseize is also a suspect splash. That might also need to go.
Some other cards I would consider if I were in this plan would be: Boros Charm, Young Pyromancer, and definitely Pack Rat (though again, a suspect splash).
You want cards that can either protect your creature advancement or cards that can create creatures out of nothing.
In that sense I would be running a manabase looking like this
and would entertain running traveler's amulet so that you could guarantee getting the colors you need when you want them. I wouldn't run scry lands that are not in your 2 main colors. This is the same for shock lands. The only reason I would say run 4 blood crypt is because you need the mountains for chained to the rocks while still having access to black.
Those are just my two cents though.
Thank you for your comments, I'm new with this archetype and your cooments shows that you have a lot more experience. I've made some changes and now the list looks like that
4 Godless Shrine
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Silence
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Plains
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Sin Collector
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Desecration Demon
1 Mogis God of Slaughter
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Thougthseize
4 Read the Bones
4 Dreadbore
3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Elspeth, Sun Champion
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Last Breath
1 Underworld Connections
3 Assemble the Legion
1 Erebos
1 Revoke Existence
Mogis is here because I don't have a blood baron to add , but it will be his slot soon.
Her Shop on Etsy
THS-KTK: Rabble Red
RTR-THS: Dega Midrange
INN-RTR: Boros Humans
SOM-INN: B/u Control
Modern: Mono-Black Infect
I've been wanting to MB 1-2 ench/artifact hate spells, but I'm having a hard time deciding, so help me out please:
1) Do you find that RE hits gods often enough for it to not be replaced by Wear/Tear?
2) Dy you find that RE hits non-artifact enchantments often enough for it to not be replaced by Shattering Blow?
Sometimes I'm thinking that [edit: the lack of] a maindeckable enchantment hate card, such as Mortify or O-Ring, is what keeps this deck at "very good" instead of "almost-top tier". Bident of Thassa and Underworld Connections hurts so bad, especially if a key strategy is to use Rakdos's Return/Sin Collector/Thoughtseize to get your opponent in top deck mode. If I could have an answer to those cards that wasn't otherwise dead, it would be incredible.
There is a crazy amount of strategic variation between different deck lists in this thread. This shell can go in so many directions, so your mileage may vary, but I strongly believe that shredding your opponent's hand with Sin Collector and Thoughtseize, and then Rakdos's Return, is crucial in (my variation of) this deck. That's the direction I'm trying to take this in. I know some of you will disagree on Return, but in my experience it's only bad against the occational aggro matchup, and even then it's not that bad, you can always at least go 1-for-1 in game 1 and side it out. If you're using Anger of the Gods, Warleader's Helix and Boros Reckoner, the general aggro matchup is pretty much a non-issue anyway. In all the other matchups, Return wins games unless your opponent has reliable card draw. That last bit is the big issue here.
If you're regularly succeeding in emptying your opponent's hand by turn 4-5-6, Stormbreath Dragon is suddenly highly playable in this deck because you know that they can't deal with it unless they luck out and top deck some removal. You get at least a few hits in before Dragon gets hit, and sometimes it doesn't, but if it does, you should have Blood Baron or Elspeth out by then to finish the deal. But then there's Bident and Underworld Connections. Those are the cards I pick with Thoughtseize 99% of the time if I get the chance, but TS alone isn't reliable enough. With no reliable way to take those two cards out after they stick, Rakdos's Return isn't as good, which in turn means that my removable creatures aren't as good as they should either. If we could have a maindeckable answer to Bident and UC, I feel that this deck would really click.
Lastly, a quick note about Anger of the Gods. This is another thing that is probably going to be met with some disagreement, but I've had great success with 2-3 Anger in the main. Yes, it is completely dead against UW/Esper control, and has to be sided out in that matchup. But it wins me games against U-devotion that I'd otherwise lose. It makes any other aggro/weenie build look utterly ridiculous. It often wipes 3+ mana dorks. And against B-devotion it's not incredible, sure, but it's at the very least a 1-for-1 every time; it reliably kills Pack Rat (that's a big deal) and it takes out Nightveil Specter. With Reckoner it also takes down Desecration Demon in a pinch, though Reckoner rarely sticks against B-dev, though when it happens, DD is exiled and can't be brought back with Whip. But generally, if you're not running a lot of x/<4 creatures yourself (and that's a big if), it's a 2+-for-1 a lot more often than it's dead, and it's not that bad as a 1-for-1. Don't be so quick to write it off; it's good in some variations of this deck, bad in others.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
1. I definitely find the ability to exile indestructible gods worth one extra mana over Tear, especially in a midrange deck.
2. Since enchantments in this block are a problem way more often than artifacts, a thousand times yes.
Neither of those cards do everything you'd want it to do. Revoke Existence hits enchantments, gods, some creatures, and a rare Pithing Needle should it come up. I find myself boarding it in on most games.
Her Shop on Etsy
THS-KTK: Rabble Red
RTR-THS: Dega Midrange
INN-RTR: Boros Humans
SOM-INN: B/u Control
Modern: Mono-Black Infect
I ran Wear/Tear before BNG, but I switched over to Revoke Existence as soon as I could, yes, for the ability to hit Gods before they become creatures. That use alone outweighs the small disadvantage in sorcery-speed.
Regarding Rakdos's Return, I also have run it in different Dega decks. In this devotion-centric world, however, my current deck runs Pack Rat, which seems to measure up in a very good way to most Blue and Green-based devotion decks. With Pack Rat, I am usually holding excess lands rather than playing them, which runs counter to getting a big RR, so I have taken it out.
Lastly, I agree with you on running Anger of the Gods in the main. I have been experimenting with Bile Blight in its place, but Anger is just better, if your mana base can handle it.
A perfect example of what I mean. I might guess that if you're running Rat and not Return, you're not running Stormbreath Dragon or Elspeth either, at least not in significant numbers? Some cards exclude others in these builds.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I don't think this deck's mana base has to be much worse or worse at all than a 2 color deck's manabase. I really don't think mana consistency should be the issue as long as you use common sense. Like don't expect to support double black, double red, and double white early at the same time. So then what do you actually sacrifice when you go 3 colors? Basic lands and mutavault. If you're not aggressive, you probably don't mind playing a few tapped lands that let you dig deeper, but a removal spell one turn later might mean you're taking an extra 3 damage you didn't have to or didn't get to play a that important permanent before dissolve mana is up. Then there are shock lands. If you are trying to play a mono black underworld connections type of strategy you are just making your job way harder by occasionally doing 2 damage to yourself.
I also found in playing the three 2 color decks that make up this deck, that there wasn't a whole lot I wanted from the color I was missing. Admittedly BR could use some of white's side board cards, BW could perhaps take more aggressive creatures from red, and RW could use black's removal, but for the most part all the cards that worked well together were already in those colors. I think trying to cram all these "good cards" into one deck doesn't actually work that well because the cards aren't actually that great and they don't really work towards a unified strategy. I guess there's the idea of playing a controlling game and then winning with our amazing bombs, but our bombs are not that good on their own. Stormbreath wants to be in a deck that can generate mana or where he's topping an aggressive curve. Blood Baron is situationally good, but he's amazing coming out of the sideboard for decks you actually want him against. Elspeth is actually always good, but you need a tighter control deck to actually get to her and protect her. That and the only reliable card advantage engine in these colors is underworld connections, which becomes a lot worse without gray merchant to help you stablize. BW does do the same thing without gray merchant, but they also run fewer shock lands and I think mono black is probably overall better at that strategy, but being BW gives you an edge against black decks and also elspeth is a really good card.
My only suggestion could be to find real synergies in the three colors that pushes it beyond decks that exist with less restrictive mana bases.
tl:dr version:
1. I think you can work around mana consistency, but you can't work around having to run scry and shock lands and not getting mutavault.
2. There's doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to play these 3 colors since the third color doesn't add anything that synergizes with the first two.
3. Trying to play control style just makes us a worse BW and an even worse mono black.
Needs a definitive shell to work properly. White 1st, Black 2nd, Red 3rd. The AotG is sketchy, but works ok.
Anxious to see what JIN brings to it.
If so, here's why:
1) The deck is undefined. Since the OP and most of the posters strays far away from the previously well-established Mythic/Dega Midrange shell, people in this thread discuss pretty much any deck in these colors. That means there's not much to discuss, everyone is posting what they want to play, and get no replies because it's not the same deck that the other posters want to play. Just look at the deck lists, you'll see anything from Purphoros to Spike Jester, Master of Cruelties and Ash Zealot. Nobody even mentioned aggro or devotion in the previous thread, the deck lists were pretty consistent.
2) Orzhov Midrange/Control is doing very well right now. I can imagine that it cannibalizes on this deck because its strategy is similar, more streamlined (and more boring imho) and it doesn't have to deal with balancing three colors.
3) Post quality declined significantly in this subforum when it stopped being restricted to Competitive members after the forum redesign. The discussion is no longer competitively oriented, which makes it less attractive for competitive players, who would have the most to contibrute to a thread like this. You pretty much didn't see people posting untested deck lists in the previous thread.
I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, just calling it like I see it. I wasn't a Competitive member myself, so I'm just like you.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I'm currently working on a strict control deck. Especially with a preference towards winning through attrition. Thoughtseize, Rakdos Return, Sin Collector, etc.
For win conditions i have 2 Elspeth, 2 Blood Baron 2 Assemble the Legion.
I might want to incorporate whip + obzedat but i feel a though that would require a gross amount of creatures I dont want.
Also, Boros Reckoner is no longer a valid card in standard in my opinion. The UW decks verdict him away and disregard him. The GR decks now splash black for removal and also just get too big for him. Mono U is way better in pretty much all ways. Master is immune to him. The flyers ignore it, and tidebinder taps it. Mono B mainboards lifebanes, bile blights, and doomblades now so he isnt valid.
Brimaz might be better but the removal is still way to good for grindy creatures.
I tried a Dega control-style deck (I used all of the cards you have listed, with the exception of Whip), but it just didn't work out. Maybe you will have better luck.
The problems were basically two-fold. The first was that a Dega control shell has no real way to prevent a spell from resolving, you have to either make them discard it or remove it after it is played. That means that you have to run a ton of varied answers, from 1-for-1 removal, sweepers for little guys, enchantment/artifact/plainswalker removal, and so forth. Dega certainly has all of those tools available, but with a big consistency issue -- the "draw the right answer at the right time" problem.
The second issue is of course the mana. Without green, you not only have to draw the right answer, you have to have the right colors to cast that answer. Having all 3 Temples certainly helps, but over a long tournament you will give up a few games to your mana problems.
Don't get me wrong -- when the deck was drawing well, it was great. For a FMN or a small tournament, it may work out well for you, but the overall consistency issues are tough. Good luck!
Indeed, this is what I've switched to for the past month or so. I have found it to be doing most of what I tried to do in Dega colors just a little better. Boros Reckoner was one of my main draws to running these colors, and ever since I stopped running that card I've been lessening my Red to the point where I just decided to swap out my removal for more Doom Blade and Ultimate Price and go 2 color.
Bant Walkers, however, is a fairly popular pet deck at my LGS for some reason, and the lack of Dreadbore is definitely noticeable there. I'm not certain how often most people run across it, though.
Her Shop on Etsy
THS-KTK: Rabble Red
RTR-THS: Dega Midrange
INN-RTR: Boros Humans
SOM-INN: B/u Control
Modern: Mono-Black Infect
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Desecration Demon
1 Haunted Plate Mail
Removal (15)
3 Dreadbore
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Ultimate Price
2 Magma Jet
1 Revoke Existence
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Sin Collector
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Thoughtseize
Lands (26)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
4 Blood Crypt
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
4 Mountain
4 Swamp
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Slaughter Games
3 Boros Reckoner
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Read the Bones
1 Dreadbore
2 Revoke Existence
1 Haunted Plate Mail
No Reckoner, no Brimaz, no Zombie
I find that running no or almost no creatures <4CMC leaves my opponent with a lot of dead removal in hand, which is a huge advantage. Anger of the Gods, Bile Blight, Lighting Strike, Magma Jet and Drown in Sorrow are all pretty much dead cards against this decklist, and that's on top of all the white removal that doesn't hit Dragon or Baron (or Elspeth except Sphere). I'm not counting Sin Collector, because if they remove him, I'm still 2-for-1. I suppose you could say the same about Lifebane Zombie, but only if he actually hits something in the hand, which makes him a sideboard option. Since I'm not playing Zombie for the aggressive 3/1, I'd rather kill those creatures after they land than play the hand lottery.
A very nice perk with running no or almost no creatures <4CMC is Haunted Plate Mail. I know how janky it looks, I snubbed it for months myself, but try one if your deck allows it. Run no more than 2x. Play on turn 4, block on your opponent's turn, activate it in the pre-combat phase and either 1) play a Dragon and attack with both, or 2) attack with Plate Mail, play a Baron post-combat and equip it in your next pre-combat. Swinging with a 8/8 Baron often takes over the game. Mail is also good when you're struggling, since he sticks around when you've been Verdicted. (A quick note about running multiples: If you've got two out and no creatures, you can stack the 0 ability to make them both creatures. That works. The reason for not running more than 1-2 is that they're too slow by themselves, you won't really have time to equip more than one on another creatures. Also, they attract Spheres since Baron/Dragon have pro-white.)
Phoenix vs. Demon
I'm actually testing out Flame-Wreathed Phoenix instead of Desecration Demon, and I think I might like him better than Demon. They die to all the same removal, and the bird doesn't flunk out when you need it the most like Demon sometimes does. Phoenix' worst drawback is the Anger non-bo, and he's a 3/3 more often than I thought he would. Anyway, the jury's still out, so don't get caught up on that.
What draw?
I'm trying to get by without draw in the main. This is not the fastest of decks, but I usually don't feel like I've got a turn to spare to play a three-mana draw, I want to play answers or threats every turn. I like the idea of 1x/2x Bones in the main, but I feel like I'm rarely happy to see it in my hand. I side them in against control, and I'm generally happier with Bones than Connections when I'm not running Rat or devotion to black. No draw in the main means scry is more important, which makes Magma Jet better.
Anger of the
Godsaggro playersI keep changing between 2x/3x/4x Anger in the main, I can't seem to decide. They are just so incredibly good in so many matchups, but when they're dead, they're dead, though they're only completely dead against UW/Esper. They're even moderately useful against MBD and G/R. 4x in the 75 without a doubt, and at least 2x in the main is good in my opinion. More Anger in the main means fewer Jets in the main, because only a limited amount of your removal can be damage and not destroy, there are a lot of fatties out there.
Slaughter Games - it actually slaughters games
2-3x Slaughter Games in the side wins certain matchups. Slaughtering Gray Merchant of Asphodel is the most satisfying thing to do in standard since the Reckoner + Blasphemous Act combo. They're good against UW/Esper too, let's see how those decks do without Ætherling and Rev.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I think about 16 whippable creatures would be an minimum to run Whip. With my current color balance, that would probably be 4x Reckoner, 4x Dragon, 4x Baron and 4x Demon/Phoenix. To make room for that, I'd have to cut enough Elspeth and/or removal/disruption to make room for the extra creatures and the whip(s), and I'm not particularly interested in neither, because Elspeth is too good to pass up and the answer package is just barely enough to keep up with RG and MUD as it is (though Reckoner mainboard would help a lot in those matchups).
Ghost Counsil would sweeten the deal significantly, of course, but then you'd have to play red as the tertiary color to support his cost, which makes Dragon hard to cast, Reckoner very unreliable, and Anger/Jet impossible to use. This would start to look a bit like Orzhov splash red.
Not saying that any or all of the above couldn't work, just that it's not an easy swap, you'd have to change the list significantly to make it work. I encourage you to try it out and report back.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
3 boros reckoner
4 desecration demon
2 obzedat ghost council
2 aetheros god of passage
3 bloodbaron of vizkopa
2 aurelia the warleader
Instants:4
4 hero's downfall
Sorceries:11
3 thoughtseize
2 rakdos's return
2 dreadbore
2 mizzium mortars
2 read the bones
2 banishing light
1 whip of erebos
Lands:25
4 blood crypt
4 godless shrine
2 sacred foundry
4 temple of silence
4 temple of malice
2 temple of triumph
3 swamp
1 mountain
1 plains
2 deicide
2 underworld connections
2 slaughter games
2 fated retribution
3 doom blade
1 thoughtseize
1 mizzium mortars
2 spirit of the labyrinth
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Instants & Sorceries
4 Dreadbore
3 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Warleader's Helix
3 Gild
4 Anger of the Gods
3 Renounce the Guilds
2 Haunted Plate Mail
Lands (25)
4 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Malice
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Silence
3 Mountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
2 Plains
2 Mutavault
1 Swamp
3 Wear // Tear
1 Merciless Eviction
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Games
1 Renounce the Guilds
2 Fate Unraveler
At this point its obviosuyl a work in progess but against some of the teired field on cockatrice I'm doin pretty good. I think the best matchups are against the controlish decks. I have a great time against mono-black and those that splash. The eidelon really muddles with their life totals and they will typically answer it. I'm just not sure if it should be a set of 4 pack rats, but at least I force a couple of damage for them to remove it. Seems better, but not sure.
Here's what I'm packing currently.
4 Godless Shrine
4 Blood Crypt
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
3 Temple of Malice
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
Creatures (12)
4 Sin Collector
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Thoughtseize
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Blind Obedience
3 Skullcrack
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Underworld Connections
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Rakdos' Return
1 Blind Obedience
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Slaughter Games
2 Revoke Existence
3 Duress
3 Devour Flesh
Against control decks, I cut anger of the gods, blind obedience, 2 lifebanes, and mizzium mortars (unless they're playing esper and have blood baron) and I bring in the duresses and slaughter games, plus revoke if I cut mortars. I still get steamrolled, and I'm not sure how I can play it any better.
Help?
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Desecration Demon
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Underworld Connections
3 Read the Bones
4 Duress
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Rakdos's Return
He tried Aegis of the Gods recently as well to combat burn, but he hasn't faced our local burn players yet. He does very well against control and midrange. The only times he seems to struggle is against hyper aggro, but that seems to be a fading strategy. Hope this can help some of you.
Edit: On another note, you guys don't only have to run the good Anti-Control cards to beat control. Forcing control to answer a threat every turn will win you the game. Force them to answer with their mana and they can't be proactive. If they're constantly tapping out to not die, they're not Rev'ing and they're not playing walkers.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
Here's the flaw in that logic. UW control has more answers than we have threats. (Doubly so if they're in black because of devour flesh to pick off blood baron or stormbreath) RG monsters' strength lies in that any one thing on the board can kill you, but the midrange build doesn't have that luxury - we're threat light and answer-heavy by the nature of the color combination. As long as we can't serve for lethal damage, they can sit back and wait to clear the board, and have enough mana to trade one-for-one the rest of the game.
There's a line of thinking to play the standard midrange stuff in the mainboard, and smokescreen into *****loads of burn as a countermeasure. I'm not entirely sure how that's be viable however - we'd need to devote a lot more maindeck spots to damage spells, as well as re-jiggering the mana base. Not sure how it'd work, really.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP