Thanks Slow. I'm unable to quote due to not having enough posts yet.
I have actually made room for it (changes at bottom). I took this to my locals last night and went 1-1 drop (basketball).
R1 vs Naya Midrange
G1 I opened really well and derped so hard. Long story short, I wasted a Detention Sphere and miscounted turns and got Domri Ulted.
Sided: -1 Brimaz, -2 Advent, -1 Prophet (filler), -1 Dictact (now not in build) for +2 Blind Obedience , +2 Verdict, +2 Rambulance. In hindsight I probably could've/should've? put in Deicide/Selesnya Charm
G2 The deck did what it was supposed to and I curved out well.
G3 I derped hard here too. I ran into an overloaded Mizzium Mortars on turn 5 and had a little juice left. He then dropped Ruric Thar, Xenagodded it and then dropped Ghor-Clan -.-. The next turn I completely derped blockers. He had an active Xenagod, Ruric and Reckoner to my Horizon Chimera, Fleecemane (not monstrous), Courser and 4/4 Voice Token. I single blocked everything instead of double blocking Ruric (I was drawing D.Sphere the next turn).
R2 vs Block Dredge
New player and they were really tired. Easy 2-0.
I did make a few changes to the list as well
Main:
+2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
-1 Dictate
-1 Courser
Side:
-2 Reprisal
+2 Mistcutter
I'm not fully sure on my side yet. The main seems quite solid to me, but I wouldn't mind attempting to pit in 1 Ephara.
Should I be playing Aetherling? Dissolve (not sure if mana can support it)? I also want to fit in something that can deal with Stormbreath/Blood Baron/etc outside of Elspeth and racing with Archangel.
I would say no to Aetherling. It generally doesn't do what a midrange deck wants. I've played Bant with 1 and 2 of Aetherling and it has won me a game or to, but more often I've died holding it before I could cast it with 7 mana. Aetherling fits better in a Bant control/walkers list because you are aiming to stall to win. Midrange decks build pressure to win.
I don't recommend dissolve as much as negate. If your midrange deck is built properly, the only things that you need to worry about are 1) not over committing for sweeps, 2) losing to spell that kills you. Usually the spells that will kill you aren't creatures. You can usually block creatures and typically even get a draw to find a answer/blocker. Cards that kill are noncreature- Sphinx Revelation, Underworld Connections, a perfect Downfall, a timely Thoughtseize, an Assemble the Legion, an Elspeth. Keeping up two mana for negate is easy and inconspicuous. Keeping up dissolve mana? Obvious. Also Negate is easier to cast. I've lost before because I took someone's advise to SB dissolve over negate. I wil never make that mistake again.
Thanks Slow. I'm unable to quote due to not having enough posts yet.
I have actually made room for it (changes at bottom). I took this to my locals last night and went 1-1 drop (basketball).
R1 vs Naya Midrange
G1 I opened really well and derped so hard. Long story short, I wasted a Detention Sphere and miscounted turns and got Domri Ulted.
Sided: -1 Brimaz, -2 Advent, -1 Prophet (filler), -1 Dictact (now not in build) for +2 Blind Obedience , +2 Verdict, +2 Rambulance. In hindsight I probably could've/should've? put in Deicide/Selesnya Charm
G2 The deck did what it was supposed to and I curved out well.
G3 I derped hard here too. I ran into an overloaded Mizzium Mortars on turn 5 and had a little juice left. He then dropped Ruric Thar, Xenagodded it and then dropped Ghor-Clan -.-. The next turn I completely derped blockers. He had an active Xenagod, Ruric and Reckoner to my Horizon Chimera, Fleecemane (not monstrous), Courser and 4/4 Voice Token. I single blocked everything instead of double blocking Ruric (I was drawing D.Sphere the next turn).
R2 vs Block Dredge
New player and they were really tired. Easy 2-0.
I did make a few changes to the list as well
Main:
+2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
-1 Dictate
-1 Courser
Side:
-2 Reprisal
+2 Mistcutter
I'm not fully sure on my side yet. The main seems quite solid to me, but I wouldn't mind attempting to pit in 1 Ephara.
Should I be playing Aetherling? Dissolve (not sure if mana can support it)? I also want to fit in something that can deal with Stormbreath/Blood Baron/etc outside of Elspeth and racing with Archangel.
I would say no to Aetherling. It generally doesn't do what a midrange deck wants. I've played Bant with 1 and 2 of Aetherling and it has won me a game or to, but more often I've died holding it before I could cast it with 7 mana. Aetherling fits better in a Bant control/walkers list because you are aiming to stall to win. Midrange decks build pressure to win.
I don't recommend dissolve as much as negate. If your midrange deck is built properly, the only things that you need to worry about are 1) not over committing for sweeps, 2) losing to spell that kills you. Usually the spells that will kill you aren't creatures. You can usually block creatures and typically even get a draw to find a answer/blocker. Cards that kill are noncreature- Sphinx Revelation, Underworld Connections, a perfect Downfall, a timely Thoughtseize, an Assemble the Legion, an Elspeth. Keeping up two mana for negate is easy and inconspicuous. Keeping up dissolve mana? Obvious. Also Negate is easier to cast. I've lost before because I took someone's advise to SB dissolve over negate. I wil never make that mistake again.
That's a fair point. I'm splashing it as a 'finisher' for control. There isn't much control in my area atm though. Consider Aetherling cut. Now what to replace it with... I don't feel Arbor Colossus is worth it as a 1-of, or if my mana base can support it.
Dissolve vs Negate argument makes sense, I'll make that change.
How has Ephara been working for you? I'm debating putting one in my build. Just not sure what to cut for it.
Ephara feels good to me, though my build is very creature heavy, which makes her better. I think 2 is the right number. I've tried 3 before and it's a bit much. One seems silly to me, too much variance without enough upside. I could easily see cutting her and running Ajani and/or Jace as your card advantage. If I had Ajani, I would try it for sure. Being able to dig for a kiora/Elspeth or D Sphere/Banishing Light is really good.
As for Aetherling, I've played it against a UWx control multiple times. A couple times it has won me the game. Other times it hasn't because they just have so much late game reach. I think I've found that the "best" way to defeat control in our matchup is drop solo must-answer threats, and keep that pressure up. And try to have Negate ready for the Sphinx Rev. Mistcutter and early Fleecemane's/Voices and the like. Overload their supply of answers, and they tumble.
Replacing Aetherling? A one of Arbor Colossus wouldn't feel great for me either. You want a long game finisher for control? Maybe Primeval Bounty? That's a good one-of. Either that or maybe the other Jace? Control can lose real fast to his mill.
I'm not sure about Ephara in mine. I'll see how it goes. I still need to pick up 1 Archangel (at least borrow) for a tourney tomorrow.
One of Arbor does seem pointless. I'll try Jace Memory Adept, but I think finding room for 2 Rapid Hybridization would be the better side deck choice. I'm leaning towards cutting the Blind Obedience and going 1 Memory/Bounty and 2 Rapid. I'm also not sold on the Nyx-Fleece Ram, would Centaur Healer be better (assuming I can find 2)?
Thanks for taking the time to help. I really appreciate it!
I played for the first time with Ram, and it was excellent. I guess 3 life in a chunk is better than spread out, but Ram can block anything profitably. I prefer unflinching courage in the side board. One of the games against a burn deck I turn 2 NyxFleece Ram, turn 3 Unflinching courage it for a 2/7 Ram gaining 3 life every turn. Too good against a burn deck
I think Rapid is a good sideboard card, but I personally haven't "liked" it. Don't know why, I just never seem to have it the moment I need it. And even when I do it feels... Fine I guess. Lemme know how it feels for you. YMMV
Just a quick report of the 18 man tourney I attended today. I can go into more detail is people want, just ask :).
R1 vs Gw Monsters
G1 and G2 were fairly similar. Nykthos and a Voyaging Satyr or two and hitting 4-5 consistantly of Garruk Caller of Beasts... I made one misplay here that I can identify which was in G2, I played a Kiora instead of sphinx's Rev for 3 when I needed a board wipe.
0-1
R2 vs BUG Midrange
G1 was a fairly good and close game
G2 I kept an iffy hand and 3 Sylvan Primordials later...
G3 we drew in time, but I shouldn't've kept this hand. 4 Land, Jace, Archangel and Rev.
0-1-1
R3 vs Wg Cats (paired down)
2 easy games. He mulled to 5 in G1 and I had double Detention Sphere. G2 he scooped it up after God's Willing-ing a Vanguard of Brimaz with a Eidolon of Countless Battles for white to dodge a Detention Sphere. he was having a day where everything went wrong.
1-1-1
R4 vs Block BG Graveyard (paired down)
Only played one here. I got off the Horizon Chimera, Rev and Archangel combo. She just scooped here and gave a 2-0 win
2-1-1
Then we cut to the top 8.
Top 8 vs Brave Naya
G1 I got early control, but Selesnya Charm Charm (exile) + 2 Boros Reckoner put me too far behind
G2 I got mana screwed. I kept a hand of Island, Temple of Plenty, Voice, D. Sphere, Jace, Kiora and Nyx-Fleece Ram. I scryed away a Verdict and hit my next land (Plenty) on turn 6. Before then I stupidly blocked a Voice with the Caryatid I drew the turn before and got blown out by a Selesnya Charm. While this was happening, I was being hit with a Brimaz with Unflinching Courage on it...
Final thoughts:
I was happy to an extent with how the deck performed. It seemed to do nothing a fair bit though. This could just be my inexperience with the deck as this is the 2nd time I've played with it.
I sided out Mystics and Advents in most games. Are they worth the mainboard spot? Or am I siding completely wrong?
I felt extremely confident with the deck and only lost to nut draws by an opponent. Here's a review of my matches.
Round 1 - BR Minotaurded Aggro
My opponent simply stood no chance in this match up. Game 1 I kept a hand with 2 land, 2 Caryatid's, 1 Courser, and 2 Sheep. He never got through for damage. 2nd game he gave me the play and once again I quickly assembled a wall and beat him with Archangel.
Round 2 - Naya Hexproof
Game 1 was a close game. He stacked 3 Unflinching Courage's and a Madcap Skills on 1 Bassara Tower Archer and still had trouble. He had to use Boros Charm's to hit me for 26 three times to finally kill me. I had played 3 Sheep, 3 Caryatid's, 2 Courser's, and 2 Archangel's. Game 2 I played Unexpected Results on turn 3 and hit Elspeth which ran away with the game. Game 3 I had my wall up again and he stumbled on hitting his 4th mana on curve. I curved into Primeval Bounty on turn 6 and it quickly gave me the win.
Round 3 - Naya Aggro
There was just nothing I could do Game 1. I was curving out nicely, but my opponent had 3 Chained to the Rocks, 2 Mizzium Morters, and 2 Banishing Light in the first 6 turns. Not to mention he laid down Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, and Advent of the Wurm on curve. I don't think I could have played the first game in any way to actually win. Game 2 I was curving out nicely again and my opponent only hit 1 Chained early. Hit Caryatid, Courser, and double Sheep on curve, and then I missed my 5th land drop with 2 Archangel's in my hand. I was able to nueter his Smiter and Wurm with Agoraphobia, but he continued to lay creatures while I couldn't find my 5th land. I have no doubt that I win game 2 if I hit my 5th land on time. Turns out my opponent plays 4 Chained, 4 Banishing Light, and 3 Morters main.
Round 4 - BW Aristocrats
Game 1 we both durdled around with no gas for the first 7-8 turns. He landed Elspeth first, and I responded with my own next turn which was met with a Hero's Downfall. He ended up edging out Game 1. Game 2 I landed an Elspeth on turn 6 and his only answer was a banishing light which I D-Sphere'd. He didn't draw any other answers and I won via emblem. We started Game 3 with 4 minutes left in the round and I took quick control with a couple Courser's on the field. My opponent landed Blood Baron, but I answered with a Kiora to fog it until I hit 7 mana and stole it with my Siren. I killed his Elspeth with the Blood Baron but I fell 1 turn short of killing him. I ticked my own Elspeth to 7 on turn 4 with a Kiora Emblem and an army of soldiers. Unfortunately, his own army of soldiers prevented me from getting lethal through. Emblem on my next turn would've won me the game.
So I finished 2-1-1 and took 4th over my last opponent on tiebreakers. The Naya Aggro deck took 1st place beating RWU Control in the finals. After FNM, I feel like Kiora is the weakest planeswalker in my deck, and I feel like Kalonian Hydra needs to go. I'm also thinking of a couple Rapid Hybridization on the side. I think I'm going to bring Armada Wurm back into the deck as I feel a lack of trample really hindered my deck all night. I feel a 3rd Siren would help as well. I was never upset to see her, I either got to steal something, or play her early and beef her up via Archangel or Ajani.
That's an interesting build. I'll have to try out Sheep in the main.
Do you feel you have too many Planeswalkers? How has 10 been working for you?
Do you like Agrophobia?
Why no D. Sphere mained? Also, why 3 Sphere and 2 Light? Wouldn't 4:1 be better?
Have you ever wished you had a Verdict?
I've never felt like I had too many planeswalkers in my hand, especially since they are all win conditions. I love Agoraphobia! It's so good for neutering opponent's early threats, especially Master of the Feast. I decided to go with no removal in the mainboard, I think that was a bad choice honestly for how my deck was built. As for the ratio, there's so many people playing Banishing Light mainboard that I have used my Banishing lights to force them into using multiples of banishing lights on me. 1 D-Sphere then wraps up all of their lights while mine fall off and exile more stuff. Again, I do think I made a mistake in having no removal main board. I have never wished I had a verdict, not once.
Made the following changes for a SCG IQ yesterday.
-1 Kalonian Hydra
-1 Unexpected Results
-1 Eidolon of Countless battles
-1 Ephara, God of the Polis
+1 Hypnotic Siren
+2 Advent of the Wurm
+1 Armada Wurm
I went 2-2-1 at the IQ.
Round 1 - Brave Naya
I won 1-0-1, my opponent couldn't even begin to crack my wall.
Round 2 - Jund Monsters
We drew here, 1-1-1. In game 1, he used 3 Ghor-Clan Rampager's on his Courser to get through 3 of my sheep. He used a Domri to fight his Polukranos against my first Wurm token. I stole his Courser with a Siren, which he took back with Abrupt Decay. He then drained the rest of his removal on my Courser's, Armada Wurm, and an Archangel. After he burned his removal, he laid Stormbreath to go for the win, but I had 2 more Siren's in my hand. I stole his Stormbreath and his Courser once again. After burning a couple Walkers and making a big Scavenging Ooze, he scooped when he couldn't get to my Elspeth which was about to ultimate. Game 2 he went very aggressive while I kept an OK hand. He played 2 Courser's, 3 Mystics, 2 Mutavault's, and a Xenagos in the first 5-6 turns. I was unable to hold off the attack backed up by Ghor-Clan's and he killed me with 30 seconds left in the round. We agreed to the draw instead of playing 5 turns.
Round 3 - Esper Control
I lost game 1 here unfortunately. I was unable to find a Mistcutter before he laid Elspeth. Game 2 went very well, I played an early Sheep and Courser, both met D-Sphere's. He countered my EOT Advent on T4, and I top decked my 2nd one which landed. That hit him for 10 damage before he removed it. I then laid Armada Wurm after he tapped out for Jace. I hit him for 10 and he rev'd for 3 to live but found no answer. Game 3 was terrible for both of us. He kept at 7 and I went to 5. Kept a hand with 3 walker's, 1 Skylasher, and 1 Temple of Mystery. Scry'd a Rev down T1, and drew a 2nd Temple on my Second draw, left a land on top. Laid Skylasher EOT. I drew a 2nd Skylasher, planned to play it after he Verdict away my first. He missed his 4th land drop so I EOT dropped the 2nd Skylasher. He never found a 4th land, nor did I and I rode the Skylasher's to victory. He was stuck with 3 Verdict's in hand. I win 2-1.
Round 4 - RW Burn
I can't be more upset about this match, I should NEVER lose it. In both games, I saw a total of 2 Courser's, 1 Sheep, and no Archangel's. Lost 0-2.
Round 5 - Bant Control/Sage of Hours
Knew I had no chance going in. My deck can NOT beat combo decks. I never expected to run into this deck, unfortunately I did. He went infinite turns both games.
So I've decided that I have to add more Win conditions, I can't afford to durdle around so long. I'm going to move the Mistcutter's to the sideboard and add 2 Kalonian Hydra's. I will also be adding 1 or 2 more Archangel of Thune's. I'd like to also fit in the other 2 Advent's to run the full 4. Friend's are pushing me to run the Prophet but I don't feel like I want to with the number of Planeswalker's I have. I guess I may try it though. I hate to use 5 mana for a 2/3 body that can be burned away so easily. I'm open to all suggestions.
Thanks Slow. It's provided a good bit of insight on some card choices :). And got me to try and find Sirens and Agrophobia lol.
I'm looking at 'rebuilding' my version, what do people feel of the following cards? This is an attempt to get some good discussion, etc going. I hope this hasn't been gone through already.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos - while he is a win con, too often he seems to not be able to do anything because of board state Voice of Resurgence - great card, but doesn't seem to fit with the deck Elvish Mystic - I always seemed to side this out, same as with Voice Horizon Chimera - not sure what to think on this card, it's a good combo piece and I like it, just not sure if it's good enough Selesnya Charm - I seemed to board it in constantly. Is it mainboard worthy? Supreme Verdict - Worth the side/mainboard slots? My meta is a mix of GWx aggro and GB Dredge with the random splashes of other decks. Courser if Kruphix - I get it's a good card and all, but is 4 really necessary? Nyx-Fleece Ram - Is this worth mainboarding? Or is it a side card? Detention Sphere vs Banishing Light - What ratios do people think work best? Why? Fleetfeather Cockatrice - Answer to Stormbreath and co. Advent of the Wurm - Is this needed? At how many? Prophet of Kruphix - Is this needed? I don't feel it is as there are better cards in the 5 drop spot.
I think Brimaz is in a weird spot right now. He's terrible against Jund Monsters, ok against Mono B Devotion, and really good against Mono U. I also believe he's good against RW Burn.
Voice is more of an aggro deck plan. I just think the Sheep and Caryatid are better 2 drops. I'd consider it if we didn't have the sheep.
I've been thinking of the Elf in my deck lately as well but idk. I may experiment with it.
I think Horizon Chimera is too cute for the deck. It costs too much for the body IMO when the Sheep has a better body and lifegain.
Selesnya Charm is an excellent card and it depends on how you want to run the deck. I run 0 because my idea is that my creatures are just going to be bigger then yours, and that's how I plan to win. It is an excellent utility card though, and there have been times where I wish I had one.
Supreme Verdict seems to go against what our deck is. We're not control, we're very creature oriented, we don't want to wipe our creatures.
I think you could cut Courser to 3, but I love having 4. Many times my opponent has used removal on my first and second Courser's, and I want that 3rd one to keep gaining life. Courser also becomes very dangerous once Archangel of Thune hits the field.
I think the Sheep is mainly a meta call. If you run into a lot of aggro, it's very deserving of mainboard.
I like my split of 3/2. It gives me answers to Pro Blue sources, and I can keep a D Sphere for multiples of a different permanent.
The Cockatrice is an interesting idea. It answers both Stormbreath and Desecration Demon if they swing into it. The Monstrous ability is all upside as well.
Advent of the Wurm is your personal decision IMO. We have lots of finishers to choose from, I just happen to like ones that trample.
Prophet is a weird card. When it works, it's amazing and you can not lose. When you waste 5 mana just for them to eliminate it, you feel like you could have made better plays. I may playtest the prophet some this week.
I completely agree on Brimmaz. He's an amazing card, just not right now. At least, in my meta.
I think I'll be siding Cockatrice, just as an answer to Demon, Blood Baron, Stormbreath and co. It's also a good excuse to pull out the best foil I've seen :D.
Does Fleecemane Lion fall into the same category as Voice? Due to meta, I think I'll be playing 1-2 Verdict mained and Fleecemane seems to go quite well with it. My reasoning behind Verdict is that, while I won't be playing it if I'm ahead, if I manage to clear the board against aggro, they are usually done.
I was playing the other day and found an interesting ruling that's probably old news to you all, but I didn't know about it (granted, I've only been playing for ~5 months). Detention Sphere is on the stack and targeting something and it gets removed, the thing it was targeting is perma-banished.
I've yet to be impressed by Fleecemane myself. I don't want to spend 5 mana to give my Fleecemane +1/+1, Hexproof, and Indestructible. I want to spend 5 mana to play Ajani or other must answer threats. IDK if you follow the Pro Tour at all, but Adrian Sullivan has heavily abused that ruling on camera.
On another note, here's the new list I'm trying out that I've been having a blast with.
I know the main deck is currently 62. I'm trying to figure out what I want to take out, and what to put on the Side. The deck has been a blast to play so far. I think Prophet as a 2 of is alright. I think 3 would just be too many. I decided to change the mana base to help with the new direction of the deck. It's much more aggressive and I no longer have trouble finishing games. I brought the Ooze's mainboard with the increased creature count. I've only just started testing this build today, I'll post back up after some more testing.
I've yet to have a hand with no shocks or a Confluence in hand, so I tend to hit mostly on curve. I like the Temples because I can scry extra lands down early and late. I can also send that Elspeth or Armada Wurm that would be my first draw to the bottom. I'm really a fan of scrying over shocking myself. If I have problems curving out in testing, I'll add the missing shock's in and go down on temples.
I've yet to have a hand with no shocks or a Confluence in hand, so I tend to hit mostly on curve. I like the Temples because I can scry extra lands down early and late. I can also send that Elspeth or Armada Wurm that would be my first draw to the bottom. I'm really a fan of scrying over shocking myself. If I have problems curving out in testing, I'll add the missing shock's in and go down on temples.
I agree with this. With Ram, Caryatid, Courser, and Fleecemane/Voice, we have enough early drops and life gain to stay safe from aggro. The Scry lands are better for getting what you need, when you need it. Im not sure what the exact numbers should be on lands, but i prefer maxing out on scry lands.
So moving the Sheep to the Sideboard was a HUGE mistake. They need to be Mainboard IMO. I struggled to a 3-2 finish at FNM.
Round 1 - GR Monsters
I didn't see any of my mana ramp in game 1, and had nothing to do until T3. That's not good when your opponent plays T2 Domri, T3 Polukranos. Game 2 I had a couple caryatid's in my starting hand and curved out, drawing all gas. I absolutely demolished him this game, he scooped after I laid Armada Wurm with a Polukranos and another Wurm already on the field. Game 3 I mulligan'd to 6 and never saw a Caryatid or Elf. Kept a 3 land hand with Kiora, Ajani, and Elspeth in it. Just when I was about to turn the corner in this game, he laid Stormbreath and I had no way to deal with it and still win. Having 3 Mana Confluence's this game really hurt me. I lose 1-2, but this kid ended up winning out and taking 1st.
Round 2 - UB Combo
I hate facing this deck so much, and again I saw none of my mana ramp. He uses Artisan of Forms, Agent of the Fates, and Master of the Feast for finishers. Uses Hidden Strings, Triton Tactics, and other cheap target spells to constantly set off his heroic. Game 1 he kept my board clear with Heroic triggers. Game 2 he stumbled on mana and I capitalized by flooding the board and he could never catch up. Game 3 he curved out too well and laid 2 Agent's to keep the Heroic sac train going. I lost 1-2.
Round 3 - Bye
Yay... I was feeling pretty crappy about the deck at this point.
Round 4 - Simic Evolve/Midrange
Faced a kid this time, but suddenly... I saw mana ramp! I curved out good in game 1 and absolutely over ran him. Game 2, the deck stumbled again and he beat me down with some Evolve creature that had a Forced Adaptation on it, and had Ajani, Caller of the Pride beefing it up. Game 3, I curved out well again with ramp early. Took the win 2-1.
Round 5 - UWR Control
Faced a guy that frequents our shop. We both started out joking about how bad our deck's had been to us all night. The best part is he thought I was still playing my Bant control deck. I obviously surprised him game 1 when I ran out an Elf on T1. I then continued to curve into threats he had to answer. I never overloaded the board, so he was having to Verdict 1-2 creatures. When he got down to 1 card I figured he was holding a walker when my Archangel of Thune stuck, So I dropped a Wurm token, and followed up with Kalonian Hydra on my turn. He turned out to be holding a Jace and didn't draw an answer. Game 2 I brought in all my Pro-Blue buddies from the Sideboard. Game 2 I was able to stick Prophet of Kruphix on T5, he burned his counterspells on 2 Advent of the Wurm's. I dropped an Archangel on his EOT and then Primeval Bounty on my turn. He couldn't find another Verdict on his turn and a Mistcutter for 6 sealed the game. So I won this one 2-0. I feel that I play against control extremely well, which probably comes from having played a control deck for 5 months.
The deck runs extremely well when I see my mana dorks in my opening hand, but otherwise having nothing to do until T3 or 4 is very, very bad. I'm going to add all 4 Sheep back into the main deck, and possibly look at some other considerations. I will be taking a week off from this deck though. I found a BUG Control deck that I plan to use this Friday for FNM and then a SCG IQ on Sunday.
That seems like it hurt :(. What did you end up cutting to make it a 60 card list?
Did you like the Mystics?
I'm enjoying playing the deck, not as much as I thought I would, but I'm enjoying it. I also might be giving it a little break as I had to borrow a few cards (eg Archangel and Breeding Pool) and the people wanted them back, with my store being sold out of both...
So I'll probs be going back to UWR Midrange/Naya Aggro or White Weenie for a bit, unfortunately...
It was a serious bummer to get boned the first 2 rounds. I cut the Spheres from the SB and moved 1 Scavenging Ooze and something else to the side.
I do like the Mystic's. They make a huge difference. The ability to T2 Courser or T3 Ajani is absolutely amazing.
I will be deciding after FNM what I will play for the IQ on Sunday. If this BUG list does well I will run it Sunday, if not I will switch back to Bant.
Hey guys, looking for some input on my deck. Taking this to GPT Salt Lake City next weekend, hoping you guys can give me some insight. I've been on a little hiatus since JOU came out but this was doing pretty well before then. I'm primarily concerned with my sideboard, I think it could be a lot better.
I would say no to Aetherling. It generally doesn't do what a midrange deck wants. I've played Bant with 1 and 2 of Aetherling and it has won me a game or to, but more often I've died holding it before I could cast it with 7 mana. Aetherling fits better in a Bant control/walkers list because you are aiming to stall to win. Midrange decks build pressure to win.
I don't recommend dissolve as much as negate. If your midrange deck is built properly, the only things that you need to worry about are 1) not over committing for sweeps, 2) losing to spell that kills you. Usually the spells that will kill you aren't creatures. You can usually block creatures and typically even get a draw to find a answer/blocker. Cards that kill are noncreature- Sphinx Revelation, Underworld Connections, a perfect Downfall, a timely Thoughtseize, an Assemble the Legion, an Elspeth. Keeping up two mana for negate is easy and inconspicuous. Keeping up dissolve mana? Obvious. Also Negate is easier to cast. I've lost before because I took someone's advise to SB dissolve over negate. I wil never make that mistake again.
That's a fair point. I'm splashing it as a 'finisher' for control. There isn't much control in my area atm though. Consider Aetherling cut. Now what to replace it with... I don't feel Arbor Colossus is worth it as a 1-of, or if my mana base can support it.
Dissolve vs Negate argument makes sense, I'll make that change.
How has Ephara been working for you? I'm debating putting one in my build. Just not sure what to cut for it.
As for Aetherling, I've played it against a UWx control multiple times. A couple times it has won me the game. Other times it hasn't because they just have so much late game reach. I think I've found that the "best" way to defeat control in our matchup is drop solo must-answer threats, and keep that pressure up. And try to have Negate ready for the Sphinx Rev. Mistcutter and early Fleecemane's/Voices and the like. Overload their supply of answers, and they tumble.
Replacing Aetherling? A one of Arbor Colossus wouldn't feel great for me either. You want a long game finisher for control? Maybe Primeval Bounty? That's a good one-of. Either that or maybe the other Jace? Control can lose real fast to his mill.
One of Arbor does seem pointless. I'll try Jace Memory Adept, but I think finding room for 2 Rapid Hybridization would be the better side deck choice. I'm leaning towards cutting the Blind Obedience and going 1 Memory/Bounty and 2 Rapid. I'm also not sold on the Nyx-Fleece Ram, would Centaur Healer be better (assuming I can find 2)?
Thanks for taking the time to help. I really appreciate it!
I think Rapid is a good sideboard card, but I personally haven't "liked" it. Don't know why, I just never seem to have it the moment I need it. And even when I do it feels... Fine I guess. Lemme know how it feels for you. YMMV
R1 vs Gw Monsters
G1 and G2 were fairly similar. Nykthos and a Voyaging Satyr or two and hitting 4-5 consistantly of Garruk Caller of Beasts... I made one misplay here that I can identify which was in G2, I played a Kiora instead of sphinx's Rev for 3 when I needed a board wipe.
0-1
R2 vs BUG Midrange
G1 was a fairly good and close game
G2 I kept an iffy hand and 3 Sylvan Primordials later...
G3 we drew in time, but I shouldn't've kept this hand. 4 Land, Jace, Archangel and Rev.
0-1-1
R3 vs Wg Cats (paired down)
2 easy games. He mulled to 5 in G1 and I had double Detention Sphere. G2 he scooped it up after God's Willing-ing a Vanguard of Brimaz with a Eidolon of Countless Battles for white to dodge a Detention Sphere. he was having a day where everything went wrong.
1-1-1
R4 vs Block BG Graveyard (paired down)
Only played one here. I got off the Horizon Chimera, Rev and Archangel combo. She just scooped here and gave a 2-0 win
2-1-1
Then we cut to the top 8.
Top 8 vs Brave Naya
G1 I got early control, but Selesnya Charm Charm (exile) + 2 Boros Reckoner put me too far behind
G2 I got mana screwed. I kept a hand of Island, Temple of Plenty, Voice, D. Sphere, Jace, Kiora and Nyx-Fleece Ram. I scryed away a Verdict and hit my next land (Plenty) on turn 6. Before then I stupidly blocked a Voice with the Caryatid I drew the turn before and got blown out by a Selesnya Charm. While this was happening, I was being hit with a Brimaz with Unflinching Courage on it...
Final thoughts:
I was happy to an extent with how the deck performed. It seemed to do nothing a fair bit though. This could just be my inexperience with the deck as this is the 2nd time I've played with it.
I sided out Mystics and Advents in most games. Are they worth the mainboard spot? Or am I siding completely wrong?
4 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Temple Garden
2 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Plenty
Creatures
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Elvish Mystic
2 Fleecemane Lion
2 Horizon Chimera
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Advent of the Wurm
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Detention Sphere
Planeswalkers
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Negate
2 Deicide
2 Rapid Hybridization
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Hypnotic Siren
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Eidolon of Countless Battles
1 Ephara, God of the Polis
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroe's
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Unexpected Results
1 Primeval Bounty
Land
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Mystery
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple Garden
3 Breeding Pool
1 Mana Confluence
1 Island
3 Skylasher
3 Detention Sphere
3 Agoraphobia
2 Banishing Light
2 Deicide
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Mistcutter Hydra
I felt extremely confident with the deck and only lost to nut draws by an opponent. Here's a review of my matches.
Round 1 - BR Minotaurded Aggro
My opponent simply stood no chance in this match up. Game 1 I kept a hand with 2 land, 2 Caryatid's, 1 Courser, and 2 Sheep. He never got through for damage. 2nd game he gave me the play and once again I quickly assembled a wall and beat him with Archangel.
Round 2 - Naya Hexproof
Game 1 was a close game. He stacked 3 Unflinching Courage's and a Madcap Skills on 1 Bassara Tower Archer and still had trouble. He had to use Boros Charm's to hit me for 26 three times to finally kill me. I had played 3 Sheep, 3 Caryatid's, 2 Courser's, and 2 Archangel's. Game 2 I played Unexpected Results on turn 3 and hit Elspeth which ran away with the game. Game 3 I had my wall up again and he stumbled on hitting his 4th mana on curve. I curved into Primeval Bounty on turn 6 and it quickly gave me the win.
Round 3 - Naya Aggro
There was just nothing I could do Game 1. I was curving out nicely, but my opponent had 3 Chained to the Rocks, 2 Mizzium Morters, and 2 Banishing Light in the first 6 turns. Not to mention he laid down Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, and Advent of the Wurm on curve. I don't think I could have played the first game in any way to actually win. Game 2 I was curving out nicely again and my opponent only hit 1 Chained early. Hit Caryatid, Courser, and double Sheep on curve, and then I missed my 5th land drop with 2 Archangel's in my hand. I was able to nueter his Smiter and Wurm with Agoraphobia, but he continued to lay creatures while I couldn't find my 5th land. I have no doubt that I win game 2 if I hit my 5th land on time. Turns out my opponent plays 4 Chained, 4 Banishing Light, and 3 Morters main.
Round 4 - BW Aristocrats
Game 1 we both durdled around with no gas for the first 7-8 turns. He landed Elspeth first, and I responded with my own next turn which was met with a Hero's Downfall. He ended up edging out Game 1. Game 2 I landed an Elspeth on turn 6 and his only answer was a banishing light which I D-Sphere'd. He didn't draw any other answers and I won via emblem. We started Game 3 with 4 minutes left in the round and I took quick control with a couple Courser's on the field. My opponent landed Blood Baron, but I answered with a Kiora to fog it until I hit 7 mana and stole it with my Siren. I killed his Elspeth with the Blood Baron but I fell 1 turn short of killing him. I ticked my own Elspeth to 7 on turn 4 with a Kiora Emblem and an army of soldiers. Unfortunately, his own army of soldiers prevented me from getting lethal through. Emblem on my next turn would've won me the game.
So I finished 2-1-1 and took 4th over my last opponent on tiebreakers. The Naya Aggro deck took 1st place beating RWU Control in the finals. After FNM, I feel like Kiora is the weakest planeswalker in my deck, and I feel like Kalonian Hydra needs to go. I'm also thinking of a couple Rapid Hybridization on the side. I think I'm going to bring Armada Wurm back into the deck as I feel a lack of trample really hindered my deck all night. I feel a 3rd Siren would help as well. I was never upset to see her, I either got to steal something, or play her early and beef her up via Archangel or Ajani.
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Do you feel you have too many Planeswalkers? How has 10 been working for you?
Do you like Agrophobia?
Why no D. Sphere mained? Also, why 3 Sphere and 2 Light? Wouldn't 4:1 be better?
Have you ever wished you had a Verdict?
Made the following changes for a SCG IQ yesterday.
-1 Kalonian Hydra
-1 Unexpected Results
-1 Eidolon of Countless battles
-1 Ephara, God of the Polis
+1 Hypnotic Siren
+2 Advent of the Wurm
+1 Armada Wurm
I went 2-2-1 at the IQ.
Round 1 - Brave Naya
I won 1-0-1, my opponent couldn't even begin to crack my wall.
Round 2 - Jund Monsters
We drew here, 1-1-1. In game 1, he used 3 Ghor-Clan Rampager's on his Courser to get through 3 of my sheep. He used a Domri to fight his Polukranos against my first Wurm token. I stole his Courser with a Siren, which he took back with Abrupt Decay. He then drained the rest of his removal on my Courser's, Armada Wurm, and an Archangel. After he burned his removal, he laid Stormbreath to go for the win, but I had 2 more Siren's in my hand. I stole his Stormbreath and his Courser once again. After burning a couple Walkers and making a big Scavenging Ooze, he scooped when he couldn't get to my Elspeth which was about to ultimate. Game 2 he went very aggressive while I kept an OK hand. He played 2 Courser's, 3 Mystics, 2 Mutavault's, and a Xenagos in the first 5-6 turns. I was unable to hold off the attack backed up by Ghor-Clan's and he killed me with 30 seconds left in the round. We agreed to the draw instead of playing 5 turns.
Round 3 - Esper Control
I lost game 1 here unfortunately. I was unable to find a Mistcutter before he laid Elspeth. Game 2 went very well, I played an early Sheep and Courser, both met D-Sphere's. He countered my EOT Advent on T4, and I top decked my 2nd one which landed. That hit him for 10 damage before he removed it. I then laid Armada Wurm after he tapped out for Jace. I hit him for 10 and he rev'd for 3 to live but found no answer. Game 3 was terrible for both of us. He kept at 7 and I went to 5. Kept a hand with 3 walker's, 1 Skylasher, and 1 Temple of Mystery. Scry'd a Rev down T1, and drew a 2nd Temple on my Second draw, left a land on top. Laid Skylasher EOT. I drew a 2nd Skylasher, planned to play it after he Verdict away my first. He missed his 4th land drop so I EOT dropped the 2nd Skylasher. He never found a 4th land, nor did I and I rode the Skylasher's to victory. He was stuck with 3 Verdict's in hand. I win 2-1.
Round 4 - RW Burn
I can't be more upset about this match, I should NEVER lose it. In both games, I saw a total of 2 Courser's, 1 Sheep, and no Archangel's. Lost 0-2.
Round 5 - Bant Control/Sage of Hours
Knew I had no chance going in. My deck can NOT beat combo decks. I never expected to run into this deck, unfortunately I did. He went infinite turns both games.
So I've decided that I have to add more Win conditions, I can't afford to durdle around so long. I'm going to move the Mistcutter's to the sideboard and add 2 Kalonian Hydra's. I will also be adding 1 or 2 more Archangel of Thune's. I'd like to also fit in the other 2 Advent's to run the full 4. Friend's are pushing me to run the Prophet but I don't feel like I want to with the number of Planeswalker's I have. I guess I may try it though. I hate to use 5 mana for a 2/3 body that can be burned away so easily. I'm open to all suggestions.
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I'm looking at 'rebuilding' my version, what do people feel of the following cards? This is an attempt to get some good discussion, etc going. I hope this hasn't been gone through already.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos - while he is a win con, too often he seems to not be able to do anything because of board state
Voice of Resurgence - great card, but doesn't seem to fit with the deck
Elvish Mystic - I always seemed to side this out, same as with Voice
Horizon Chimera - not sure what to think on this card, it's a good combo piece and I like it, just not sure if it's good enough
Selesnya Charm - I seemed to board it in constantly. Is it mainboard worthy?
Supreme Verdict - Worth the side/mainboard slots? My meta is a mix of GWx aggro and GB Dredge with the random splashes of other decks.
Courser if Kruphix - I get it's a good card and all, but is 4 really necessary?
Nyx-Fleece Ram - Is this worth mainboarding? Or is it a side card?
Detention Sphere vs Banishing Light - What ratios do people think work best? Why?
Fleetfeather Cockatrice - Answer to Stormbreath and co.
Advent of the Wurm - Is this needed? At how many?
Prophet of Kruphix - Is this needed? I don't feel it is as there are better cards in the 5 drop spot.
Voice is more of an aggro deck plan. I just think the Sheep and Caryatid are better 2 drops. I'd consider it if we didn't have the sheep.
I've been thinking of the Elf in my deck lately as well but idk. I may experiment with it.
I think Horizon Chimera is too cute for the deck. It costs too much for the body IMO when the Sheep has a better body and lifegain.
Selesnya Charm is an excellent card and it depends on how you want to run the deck. I run 0 because my idea is that my creatures are just going to be bigger then yours, and that's how I plan to win. It is an excellent utility card though, and there have been times where I wish I had one.
Supreme Verdict seems to go against what our deck is. We're not control, we're very creature oriented, we don't want to wipe our creatures.
I think you could cut Courser to 3, but I love having 4. Many times my opponent has used removal on my first and second Courser's, and I want that 3rd one to keep gaining life. Courser also becomes very dangerous once Archangel of Thune hits the field.
I think the Sheep is mainly a meta call. If you run into a lot of aggro, it's very deserving of mainboard.
I like my split of 3/2. It gives me answers to Pro Blue sources, and I can keep a D Sphere for multiples of a different permanent.
The Cockatrice is an interesting idea. It answers both Stormbreath and Desecration Demon if they swing into it. The Monstrous ability is all upside as well.
Advent of the Wurm is your personal decision IMO. We have lots of finishers to choose from, I just happen to like ones that trample.
Prophet is a weird card. When it works, it's amazing and you can not lose. When you waste 5 mana just for them to eliminate it, you feel like you could have made better plays. I may playtest the prophet some this week.
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I think I'll be siding Cockatrice, just as an answer to Demon, Blood Baron, Stormbreath and co. It's also a good excuse to pull out the best foil I've seen :D.
Does Fleecemane Lion fall into the same category as Voice? Due to meta, I think I'll be playing 1-2 Verdict mained and Fleecemane seems to go quite well with it. My reasoning behind Verdict is that, while I won't be playing it if I'm ahead, if I manage to clear the board against aggro, they are usually done.
I was playing the other day and found an interesting ruling that's probably old news to you all, but I didn't know about it (granted, I've only been playing for ~5 months). Detention Sphere is on the stack and targeting something and it gets removed, the thing it was targeting is perma-banished.
On another note, here's the new list I'm trying out that I've been having a blast with.
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Mystery
3 Breeding Pool
3 Temple Garden
3 Mana Confluence
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
Creatures
4 Elvish mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Archangel of Thune
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kalonian Hydra
2 Hypnotic Siren
2 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Armada Wurm
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Spells
3 Advent of the Wurm
1 Primeval Bounty
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
3 Agoraphobia
2 Skylasher
2 Detention Sphere
I know the main deck is currently 62. I'm trying to figure out what I want to take out, and what to put on the Side. The deck has been a blast to play so far. I think Prophet as a 2 of is alright. I think 3 would just be too many. I decided to change the mana base to help with the new direction of the deck. It's much more aggressive and I no longer have trouble finishing games. I brought the Ooze's mainboard with the increased creature count. I've only just started testing this build today, I'll post back up after some more testing.
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Is there a reason you max out on Scry Lands over Shock Lands?
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I agree with this. With Ram, Caryatid, Courser, and Fleecemane/Voice, we have enough early drops and life gain to stay safe from aggro. The Scry lands are better for getting what you need, when you need it. Im not sure what the exact numbers should be on lands, but i prefer maxing out on scry lands.
Round 1 - GR Monsters
I didn't see any of my mana ramp in game 1, and had nothing to do until T3. That's not good when your opponent plays T2 Domri, T3 Polukranos. Game 2 I had a couple caryatid's in my starting hand and curved out, drawing all gas. I absolutely demolished him this game, he scooped after I laid Armada Wurm with a Polukranos and another Wurm already on the field. Game 3 I mulligan'd to 6 and never saw a Caryatid or Elf. Kept a 3 land hand with Kiora, Ajani, and Elspeth in it. Just when I was about to turn the corner in this game, he laid Stormbreath and I had no way to deal with it and still win. Having 3 Mana Confluence's this game really hurt me. I lose 1-2, but this kid ended up winning out and taking 1st.
Round 2 - UB Combo
I hate facing this deck so much, and again I saw none of my mana ramp. He uses Artisan of Forms, Agent of the Fates, and Master of the Feast for finishers. Uses Hidden Strings, Triton Tactics, and other cheap target spells to constantly set off his heroic. Game 1 he kept my board clear with Heroic triggers. Game 2 he stumbled on mana and I capitalized by flooding the board and he could never catch up. Game 3 he curved out too well and laid 2 Agent's to keep the Heroic sac train going. I lost 1-2.
Round 3 - Bye
Yay... I was feeling pretty crappy about the deck at this point.
Round 4 - Simic Evolve/Midrange
Faced a kid this time, but suddenly... I saw mana ramp! I curved out good in game 1 and absolutely over ran him. Game 2, the deck stumbled again and he beat me down with some Evolve creature that had a Forced Adaptation on it, and had Ajani, Caller of the Pride beefing it up. Game 3, I curved out well again with ramp early. Took the win 2-1.
Round 5 - UWR Control
Faced a guy that frequents our shop. We both started out joking about how bad our deck's had been to us all night. The best part is he thought I was still playing my Bant control deck. I obviously surprised him game 1 when I ran out an Elf on T1. I then continued to curve into threats he had to answer. I never overloaded the board, so he was having to Verdict 1-2 creatures. When he got down to 1 card I figured he was holding a walker when my Archangel of Thune stuck, So I dropped a Wurm token, and followed up with Kalonian Hydra on my turn. He turned out to be holding a Jace and didn't draw an answer. Game 2 I brought in all my Pro-Blue buddies from the Sideboard. Game 2 I was able to stick Prophet of Kruphix on T5, he burned his counterspells on 2 Advent of the Wurm's. I dropped an Archangel on his EOT and then Primeval Bounty on my turn. He couldn't find another Verdict on his turn and a Mistcutter for 6 sealed the game. So I won this one 2-0. I feel that I play against control extremely well, which probably comes from having played a control deck for 5 months.
The deck runs extremely well when I see my mana dorks in my opening hand, but otherwise having nothing to do until T3 or 4 is very, very bad. I'm going to add all 4 Sheep back into the main deck, and possibly look at some other considerations. I will be taking a week off from this deck though. I found a BUG Control deck that I plan to use this Friday for FNM and then a SCG IQ on Sunday.
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Did you like the Mystics?
I'm enjoying playing the deck, not as much as I thought I would, but I'm enjoying it. I also might be giving it a little break as I had to borrow a few cards (eg Archangel and Breeding Pool) and the people wanted them back, with my store being sold out of both...
So I'll probs be going back to UWR Midrange/Naya Aggro or White Weenie for a bit, unfortunately...
I do like the Mystic's. They make a huge difference. The ability to T2 Courser or T3 Ajani is absolutely amazing.
I will be deciding after FNM what I will play for the IQ on Sunday. If this BUG list does well I will run it Sunday, if not I will switch back to Bant.
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Legacy - Lands
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3x Mistcutter Hydra
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Archangel of Thune
2x Prophet of Kruphix
2x Prime Speaker Zegana
2x Angel of Serenity
2x Rapid Hybridization
2x Banishing Light
3x Detention Sphere
3x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
3x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3x Forest
3x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
3x Plains
3x Temple Garden
2x Temple of Enlightenment
2x Temple of Mystery
2x Temple of Plenty
1x Mistcutter Hydra
1x Pithing Needle
2x Rapid Hybridization
2x Blind Obedience
2x Deicide
3x Last Breath
1x Detention Sphere
3x Dissolve