The point of the deck is too get big as possible as quick as possible. If you are wasting a potential 5 mana on a recur spell rather than on nemesis or shadowborn to put pressure, you just fall off the scale.
Whip is a standard and necessary card to the deck. Even if its a single copy or two, its the reason why u would win almost 25-50% of your games, you recur something, swing in for 5+ per turn, and if u have another huge beat stick. Its a potential half of the opponent's life.
I wasn't trying to argue but i think i can see a major point of contention. From an outsider's perspective i think you're trying to use substandard cards. Some of them seem as if they were picked to fit the theme of past iterations of dredge. Nemesis for example is not good enough. That spot should be filled by a creature that dominates the board or not at all.
If not nemesis, (and nothing else seems to jump out at me), then it's possible that dredge just won't work if you try to build it the way it's been built in the past. I'm having the same darn problem with hexproof auras. That doesn't mean there isn't a solution, but it might require going outside your comfort zone.
There's definitely some support for dredge and some support for auras, and the whole bestow mechanic seems to be useless in constructed so far. I'm just speculating but i thought that there might be a way to combine a few of these ideas into one that works. Not quite auras (no hexproof) and not quite dredge.
I'm not saying that you should try to shoe-horn white mana into dredge so that you can use auramancer to recur a few nighthowlers, because that would be stupid. I'm saying that the tools that are available might support a dredge/bestow combo better than they support pure dredge. I can't take that challenge on right now because i'm still trying to figure out if there's an angle for hexproof, but i thought there might be a brave johnny in this crowd.
I don’t really think Auramancer fits here, but the best use I have found for her is attaching a Gift of Immortality to her in order to pull Auras from your graveyard.
ive been finding this deck incredibly infuriating. alot of the time it does nothing, some of the time it runs out of gas just short of winning. only a small percentage of the time is it explosive. when it goes off, it GOES OFF. unfortunately, at least for me, it doesn't happen that often. we need evasion of some sort. most of our massive dudes (jarad, nemesis, howler) have no evasion. only the demon flies and it's hard to make stick. i love the idea, just not convinced the tools are there to make it successful
ive been finding this deck incredibly infuriating. alot of the time it does nothing, some of the time it runs out of gas just short of winning.
it sounds like you might need to pick up a more recent stock list and practice with it a bit. lotleth troll, jarad, and deathrite are evasive damage sources. i run a whip that can also be a source of pressure in the later stages of the game.
i feel that with tight play, this deck has a good game against most any non monoU deck
ive been finding this deck incredibly infuriating. alot of the time it does nothing, some of the time it runs out of gas just short of winning. only a small percentage of the time is it explosive. when it goes off, it GOES OFF. unfortunately, at least for me, it doesn't happen that often. we need evasion of some sort. most of our massive dudes (jarad, nemesis, howler) have no evasion. only the demon flies and it's hard to make stick. i love the idea, just not convinced the tools are there to make it successful
I have found one of my favorite parts of this deck is the late game... Never runs out if gas for me.. Early can be hard at times. I also suggest one green god for trample.
I wasn't trying to argue but i think i can see a major point of contention. From an outsider's perspective i think you're trying to use substandard cards. Some of them seem as if they were picked to fit the theme of past iterations of dredge. Nemesis for example is not good enough. That spot should be filled by a creature that dominates the board.
I'm not saying that you should try to shoe-horn white mana into dredge so that you can use auramancer to recur a few nighthowlers, because that would be stupid. I'm saying that the tools that are available might support a dredge/bestow combo better than they support pure dredge. I can't take that challenge on right now because i'm still trying to figure out if there's an angle for hexproof, but i thought there might be a brave johnny in this crowd.
Bestow just doesn't fit this deck's goals. What exactly does bestow do that helps this deck win? Nothing as far as I can tell. Now Conley has already had some limited success with a dedicated dredge deck so I'm much more likely to try to focus on that. His suggestion of Gift of Orzhova is solid life gain and evasion which I want to try MD. Auramancers seems like a substandard card while on the subject.
Bestow just doesn't fit this deck's goals. What exactly does bestow do that helps this deck win? Nothing as far as I can tell. Now Conley has already had some limited success with a dedicated dredge deck so I'm much more likely to try to focus on that. His suggestion of Gift of Orzhova is solid life gain and evasion which I want to try MD. Auramancers seems like a substandard card while on the subject.
Yeah i figured there'd be plenty of dredge players who wouldn't care to hear about it, but the idea has an interesting and (potentially) sound basis and there's nowhere else i could've posted my message that would've reached as many dredge players as i can reach right here in the dredge thread. I'm really not trying to convince any of you guys to shove auramancer in a regular dredge deck. Auramancer is situationally powerful in a way that most other cards in standard are not. It can (under certain conditions that must be created) function like a 3 cmc tutor that also puts a 2/2 body on the board. Recall demonic tutor which allowed you to tutor for any card, and had a cmc of 2. The fact that auramancer gives you a creature justifies the added cost, but it does also restrict deck construction somewhat. As long as you're able to fill up the graveyard with valuable enchantments then auramancer can function at full strength. Nighthowler and whip of erebos are already valuable enchantments, and the gods are enchantments as well. That gives you a base of cards to choose from.
But i understand your perspective very well. The dredge deck that Conley is playing is not built around nighthowler and whip of erebos and auramancer. Two of those cards are present in dredge but they're to provide support for a more "traditional" dredge strategy that probably can't afford to use auramancers. The auramancers don't have enough cards that they can recur, and if they don't recur a card then they're just a bad grizzly bear. Unfortunately you don't have all the tools that you need to make this a type 1 sort of deck, or else you wouldn't be playing nemesis of coils. You're being forced to implement cards that are probably the best cards available. Your deck still wins when it works, but the deck only works often enough to tantalize you with its promise, (most likely) not often enough to win a big tournament.
If you believe that dredge only needs to find the right mix of cards then you're not going to be interested in auramancer, and i don't blame you. I am assuredly NOT recommending auramancer in a normal dredge build. I said before that i was looking for johnnies and that's honestly all i'm here for. I'm willing to help with your dredge problems too to some extent, but i've been doing that all along. The dredge concepts that you gentlemen (and Conley for that matter) have been discussing are only inconsistently good at this point because you don't have the requisite degree of synergy or strength. You have some of each, but not enough in combination to make this a tier 1 deck. You can afford to have some bad cards every now and then (like tidebender mage) if the context that you create enables them to become powerful. Hexproof works via the same concept. In the case of dredge you've got cards like nemesis and shadowborn demon that are very situational, and cards like grisly salvage and commune that are situational in ways that support the first group of cards, but the hero cards that are always powerful are cards like jarad and lotleth troll, and dredge really needs to have another (at least one more) of those imo, but i don't see one.
Drawing another parallel with hexproof, the difference between geist of saint traft and witchstalker is huge. Geist of saint traft beats people's faces in. It can end a game in 3 swings if the opponent shocked himself. Witchstalker needs 6 swings. Now i've built a hexproof deck that i feel is every bit as synergistic, maybe more so than bant enchant was, but the thing that i can't do a thing to change is the fact that geist of saint traft could occasionally save my ass all by himself whereas witchstalker is basically just a pile of mashed potatoes.
Since dredge doesn't have the world-beaters that it needs, it can only hope to improve by finding synergistic interactions. That's admittedly not a satisfying answer but it may help focus your search.
Extremely nice response and I'll put something together over the weekend to whet your appetite. I concur this deck doesn't have an extremely powerful card that just wins games. I think the power of dredge in the original Ravnica ruins that option most likely but maybe we can find something off the beaten path that at least wins some games until the next set.
This is the concept that I didn't have time to explore myself a few days ago. I appreciate the patience that the Dredge players have shown and if there's anyone interested in the concept I invite you to read this other thread. I don't want to make any further distractions here, so best of luck with vanilla Dredge. I have a sincere new appreciation for the concept after having spent the past couple days talking about it. Thank you.
the sideboard with probably be a mishmash of removal (doom blade/edicts), removal for planeswalkers (hero's downfall) and utility (golgari charm, more abrupt decay). any suggestions would be awesome!
Bestow just doesn't fit this deck's goals. What exactly does bestow do that helps this deck win? Nothing as far as I can tell.
THE most powerful play i've seen from this deck is a lotleth troll bestowed with a nighthowler. flinging with jarad would be cool at this point but i've never had enough mana.
THE most powerful play i've seen from this deck is a lotleth troll bestowed with a nighthowler. flinging with jarad would be cool at this point but i've never had enough mana.
Bestow itself is not the reason this deck has promise. Sure, it's powerful but only because these interactions fit together in a synergistic deck. Nighthowler is not a very powerful card except in certain situations. Same is true with loltroll and other cards used. Together in this deck, there is power but bestow is not the reason.
Been playing this for a few weeks and I love it! Lately though I've been having some issues with Rest In Peace and crypt incursion due to me running this list and 2 of the better players at my LGS running reanimator. How do you guys deal with spells like that esp. rest in peace. Im running golgari charms and abrupts but once a RIP resolves it hurts pretty bad. The best strategy Ive found is to pull out some of the stuff that relies on the GY and try to play midrange with demons and nemesis.
So I took my deck to another FNM, 5th event total and went x-1 again.. Netting second place. I am pretty happy with the deck at this point however placing it on the side for now since I am doing well enough that crypt incursion and rest in piece are starting to see sidebored. Also 2 other graveyard decks are popping up.
I like a lot of the one-ofs since I can search for then with salvage and commune.. They all proved usefull and each played its part...
Matchups
Match 1 (2-0)
Newish player with WU wheeny... Stomped it.
Match 2 (1-2)
Jund, game one I smashed it, too many large creatures for him to deal with...
Game 2-3 he sides in two scoozes, I side in all my scooze removal, anything that can kill it is in... Both game turn 2 scooze followed by no answeres... Bummer.. Then I proceed to beat him post sidebored like 5 games in row...
Match 3 (2-0)
Grixis mill.... His deck is good and actually didn't do too bad... But he is just feeding my over plan... Night howlers and Jerid where like 10/10 by turn 3...
Match 4 (2-1)
Rw devotion. Game one is close but between death right lifegain, bigger creatures and such we traded a bit, I got down to 3 health... Then I top decked my whip...
Game 2 was triple burning tree followed by ash zealot on his play...
Game 3 was me searching into double Nylea's deciles, never got below 10 health.
Match 5 (2-0)
Esper control
Both games he just can't deal with big threat after big threat... When each creature I drop is like 8/8 and bestowing my elves with 8/8 nighthowlers he just couldn't keep up. Swung through 3 revs first game and 1 rev and BBv game 2
Been playing this for a few weeks and I love it! Lately though I've been having some issues with Rest In Peace and crypt incursion due to me running this list and 2 of the better players at my LGS running reanimator. How do you guys deal with spells like that esp. rest in peace. Im running golgari charms and abrupts but once a RIP resolves it hurts pretty bad. The best strategy Ive found is to pull out some of the stuff that relies on the GY and try to play midrange with demons and nemesis.
you really just can't... Both cards just remove your strategy. I am heading over to bant control/profit for a bit...
my friend and I ran dredge yesterday and went 4-0 and 3-1 respectively. My only loss was because I showed up late.
played ww,monoU three times, monoR aggro, grixis control, gw midrange between the two of us and won them all. It really wasn't close. Skylashers in the board are great.
my friend and I ran dredge yesterday and went 4-0 and 3-1 respectively. My only loss was because I showed up late.
played ww,monoU three times, monoR aggro, grixis control, gw midrange between the two of us and won them all. It really wasn't close. Skylashers in the board are great.
Ya I have been noticing most of my wins aren't very close... But when you lose to side hate, you lose damn hard.... Esper control can get you pretty good without hate as well... And if monoU gets a big master or two then can out swarm you really fast..
WW is pretty ez and even more so with 3 golgary charms bored in
Have people experimented with Treasured Find? You can commune & grisly salvage again with it for 4 mana. Or you can fetch a whip / hero's downfall / demon / whatever from your graveyard back into your hand. Maybe a Nighthowler to bestow again.. etc.
I like it conceptually, though keeping the creature count high is important, and it doesn't do enough to deserve a spell slot. I like Auramancer a bit more, as it adds to the creature count. Maybe Pharika's Mender which has a respectable body, without needing additional colors, though she is a tad on the expensive side.
Then again, recurring creatures makes your other guys less effective, so I think the deck might be better with just adding more creatures. The non-creature spells just don't seem like something that worth recurring. Maybe if the deck ran a decent removal package.
Remember that Treasured Find is tempo loss. Whatever you recur with it has to make up for the mana spent recurring it. It's basically unplayable before turn six in other words, so you have to tailor around that specifically.
I don't know. I'm sure it can be made to work, I'm just not sure if it will be any better. Testing time I guess.
---
Has anyone tried Returned Centaur. He's an okay blocker that mills 4, then dies, adding to your GY creature count. Seems like a good play at any stage in the game, whether winning or losing. Sure, he isn't very impressive stat wise, but he serves a function and does it well.
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You have so many green creatures Garruk seems like it would be good -- along with a kalonian and you got reach -- pitch em if ya don't need em.
There are three reasons Garruk doesn't fit the deck.
1. The high creature count is to support three cards. Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, Nighthowler, and Nemesis of Mortals. The deck needs a large number of creatures in the graveyard, so it runs a large number of creatures to bin with mill spells. Garruk doesn't help bin creatures, only get them to our hands, which isn't important.
2. The reason the deck runs so many mana dorks is that it gets stronger with more creatures in the yard. The mana dorks are run in place of lands. They aren't there to ramp. Hence, Garruk costs way too much mana for this deck to cast reliably.
3. Garruk isn't a creature. Every non creature in the deck weakens the primary game plan. Because of this, all non creature need to be able to A) mill cards, or B) be so outright powerful that it makes up for the weakening of the deck overall. Garruk does neither of those.
As for the Hydra, it isn't going to make the deck any worse, but it doesn't have any synergy with the deck as whole. It works well with Jarad, which is nice. I could see it ran in some decks, but I wouldn't advocate it myself.
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played in a tuesday event... went 2-2 in 4 matches
0-2 vs White Weenies splashing black?
2-0 vs Mono Blue
2-0 vs an Esper aggro brew
0-2 vs Mono Black
Felt like i drew very poorly against the WW and monoB decks... no real breakthroughs or anything but i'm really underwhelmed by deadbridge chant. Also, I have a split of ultimate price, putrefy and abrupt decay in my SB and I always end up wanting all of them when I do want removal spells. Need a better read on the meta I expect to tighten that up, I think.
Im not a fan of nemesis. I didnt test it but on paper it looks bad. You'll cast it on turn 3 and after at most games. No evasion is big minus and its only good with jarad. With all the mana dorks you can cast a descreation demon or something. Is it really neccessary?
Im not a fan of nemesis. I didnt test it but on paper it looks bad. You'll cast it on turn 3 and after at most games. No evasion is big minus and its only good with jarad. With all the mana dorks you can cast a descreation demon or something. Is it really neccessary?
There are only four cards in standard that benefit from having a bunch of creatures in the yard. Jarad, howler, shadowborn, and NoM. Jarad is legendary, and has recursion, so he can't really be four of. 2-3 by popular opinion. Howler is already a four of, amd the demon is bad in some match ups. Sure, you could cut the NoM for more demons, but then you would only have 11 (high estimate) reasons to dredge, and your control match up woukd plummet. I'd say NoM is a necessary evil.
That said, you could cut some number of Nemesis and be alright, though I would't recommend cutting all of them. If you aren't expecting control, cut two and move the 2 demon main.
The problem with NoM is that he is a dumb beater. That is also the problem with most of the deck. But that is outweighed by the number of dumb beaters. Between Jarad, Howler, and Nemesis, the deck runs 11 cards that are basically 4 mana 10/10's. If your nemesis eats a doomblade you can always just cast another 10/10. If you are getting chump blocked, you are winning. I think Nemesis is just fine given his context and the lack of suitable replacements.
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Last week, we had 2 tournaments. A small one with money prizes and PTQ.
Won the small one and placed 21th on the PTQ (4-2)
Faced, Esper control, UW control, Naya and Esper humans.
And on the PTQ: Maze End(L), RG Monsters(W), Jund(L), MonoU(W), RWB Control(W) and Rakdos Aggro(W).
The Korozda Guildmage did a lot of work on some matches, but i think only 1 is correct, didn't like the 2nd one at all.
Almost always sided in the 3rd Demon, thinking about main decking it.
Not quite convinced with the sliver, Gyre Sage might be better.
MonoU is probably the worst matchup with this list at least game 1, need to test with a 3rd demon in the main.
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Whip is a standard and necessary card to the deck. Even if its a single copy or two, its the reason why u would win almost 25-50% of your games, you recur something, swing in for 5+ per turn, and if u have another huge beat stick. Its a potential half of the opponent's life.
If not nemesis, (and nothing else seems to jump out at me), then it's possible that dredge just won't work if you try to build it the way it's been built in the past. I'm having the same darn problem with hexproof auras. That doesn't mean there isn't a solution, but it might require going outside your comfort zone.
There's definitely some support for dredge and some support for auras, and the whole bestow mechanic seems to be useless in constructed so far. I'm just speculating but i thought that there might be a way to combine a few of these ideas into one that works. Not quite auras (no hexproof) and not quite dredge.
I'm not saying that you should try to shoe-horn white mana into dredge so that you can use auramancer to recur a few nighthowlers, because that would be stupid. I'm saying that the tools that are available might support a dredge/bestow combo better than they support pure dredge. I can't take that challenge on right now because i'm still trying to figure out if there's an angle for hexproof, but i thought there might be a brave johnny in this crowd.
it sounds like you might need to pick up a more recent stock list and practice with it a bit. lotleth troll, jarad, and deathrite are evasive damage sources. i run a whip that can also be a source of pressure in the later stages of the game.
i feel that with tight play, this deck has a good game against most any non monoU deck
I have found one of my favorite parts of this deck is the late game... Never runs out if gas for me.. Early can be hard at times. I also suggest one green god for trample.
EDH
BU LazavUB
GU Momir VigUG
Bestow just doesn't fit this deck's goals. What exactly does bestow do that helps this deck win? Nothing as far as I can tell. Now Conley has already had some limited success with a dedicated dredge deck so I'm much more likely to try to focus on that. His suggestion of Gift of Orzhova is solid life gain and evasion which I want to try MD. Auramancers seems like a substandard card while on the subject.
Yeah i figured there'd be plenty of dredge players who wouldn't care to hear about it, but the idea has an interesting and (potentially) sound basis and there's nowhere else i could've posted my message that would've reached as many dredge players as i can reach right here in the dredge thread. I'm really not trying to convince any of you guys to shove auramancer in a regular dredge deck. Auramancer is situationally powerful in a way that most other cards in standard are not. It can (under certain conditions that must be created) function like a 3 cmc tutor that also puts a 2/2 body on the board. Recall demonic tutor which allowed you to tutor for any card, and had a cmc of 2. The fact that auramancer gives you a creature justifies the added cost, but it does also restrict deck construction somewhat. As long as you're able to fill up the graveyard with valuable enchantments then auramancer can function at full strength. Nighthowler and whip of erebos are already valuable enchantments, and the gods are enchantments as well. That gives you a base of cards to choose from.
But i understand your perspective very well. The dredge deck that Conley is playing is not built around nighthowler and whip of erebos and auramancer. Two of those cards are present in dredge but they're to provide support for a more "traditional" dredge strategy that probably can't afford to use auramancers. The auramancers don't have enough cards that they can recur, and if they don't recur a card then they're just a bad grizzly bear. Unfortunately you don't have all the tools that you need to make this a type 1 sort of deck, or else you wouldn't be playing nemesis of coils. You're being forced to implement cards that are probably the best cards available. Your deck still wins when it works, but the deck only works often enough to tantalize you with its promise, (most likely) not often enough to win a big tournament.
If you believe that dredge only needs to find the right mix of cards then you're not going to be interested in auramancer, and i don't blame you. I am assuredly NOT recommending auramancer in a normal dredge build. I said before that i was looking for johnnies and that's honestly all i'm here for. I'm willing to help with your dredge problems too to some extent, but i've been doing that all along. The dredge concepts that you gentlemen (and Conley for that matter) have been discussing are only inconsistently good at this point because you don't have the requisite degree of synergy or strength. You have some of each, but not enough in combination to make this a tier 1 deck. You can afford to have some bad cards every now and then (like tidebender mage) if the context that you create enables them to become powerful. Hexproof works via the same concept. In the case of dredge you've got cards like nemesis and shadowborn demon that are very situational, and cards like grisly salvage and commune that are situational in ways that support the first group of cards, but the hero cards that are always powerful are cards like jarad and lotleth troll, and dredge really needs to have another (at least one more) of those imo, but i don't see one.
Drawing another parallel with hexproof, the difference between geist of saint traft and witchstalker is huge. Geist of saint traft beats people's faces in. It can end a game in 3 swings if the opponent shocked himself. Witchstalker needs 6 swings. Now i've built a hexproof deck that i feel is every bit as synergistic, maybe more so than bant enchant was, but the thing that i can't do a thing to change is the fact that geist of saint traft could occasionally save my ass all by himself whereas witchstalker is basically just a pile of mashed potatoes.
Since dredge doesn't have the world-beaters that it needs, it can only hope to improve by finding synergistic interactions. That's admittedly not a satisfying answer but it may help focus your search.
Extremely nice response and I'll put something together over the weekend to whet your appetite. I concur this deck doesn't have an extremely powerful card that just wins games. I think the power of dredge in the original Ravnica ruins that option most likely but maybe we can find something off the beaten path that at least wins some games until the next set.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11407279#post11407279
This is the concept that I didn't have time to explore myself a few days ago. I appreciate the patience that the Dredge players have shown and if there's anyone interested in the concept I invite you to read this other thread. I don't want to make any further distractions here, so best of luck with vanilla Dredge. I have a sincere new appreciation for the concept after having spent the past couple days talking about it. Thank you.
4 overgrown tomb
10 forest
6 swamp
dudes(29)
4 elvish mystic
3 deathrite shaman
4 sylvan caryatid
4 lotleth troll
4 nighthowler
1 rot farm skeleton
3 jarad, golgari lich lord
2 shadowborn demon
4 nemesis of mortals
4 grisly salvage
3 commune with the gods
removal (3)
3 abrupt decay
the sideboard with probably be a mishmash of removal (doom blade/edicts), removal for planeswalkers (hero's downfall) and utility (golgari charm, more abrupt decay). any suggestions would be awesome!
THE most powerful play i've seen from this deck is a lotleth troll bestowed with a nighthowler. flinging with jarad would be cool at this point but i've never had enough mana.
Bestow itself is not the reason this deck has promise. Sure, it's powerful but only because these interactions fit together in a synergistic deck. Nighthowler is not a very powerful card except in certain situations. Same is true with loltroll and other cards used. Together in this deck, there is power but bestow is not the reason.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Gyre Sage
2 Lotleth Troll
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Nighthowler
3 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
2 Shadowborn Demon
4 Nemesis of Mortals
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Grisly Salvage
1 Whip of Erebos
Lands:20
7 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
7 Swamp
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Thoughtseize
3 Golgari Charm
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Nylea's Disciple
1 Shadowborn Demon
I like a lot of the one-ofs since I can search for then with salvage and commune.. They all proved usefull and each played its part...
Matchups
Match 1 (2-0)
Newish player with WU wheeny... Stomped it.
Match 2 (1-2)
Jund, game one I smashed it, too many large creatures for him to deal with...
Game 2-3 he sides in two scoozes, I side in all my scooze removal, anything that can kill it is in... Both game turn 2 scooze followed by no answeres... Bummer.. Then I proceed to beat him post sidebored like 5 games in row...
Match 3 (2-0)
Grixis mill.... His deck is good and actually didn't do too bad... But he is just feeding my over plan... Night howlers and Jerid where like 10/10 by turn 3...
Match 4 (2-1)
Rw devotion. Game one is close but between death right lifegain, bigger creatures and such we traded a bit, I got down to 3 health... Then I top decked my whip...
Game 2 was triple burning tree followed by ash zealot on his play...
Game 3 was me searching into double Nylea's deciles, never got below 10 health.
Match 5 (2-0)
Esper control
Both games he just can't deal with big threat after big threat... When each creature I drop is like 8/8 and bestowing my elves with 8/8 nighthowlers he just couldn't keep up. Swung through 3 revs first game and 1 rev and BBv game 2
you really just can't... Both cards just remove your strategy. I am heading over to bant control/profit for a bit...
EDH
BU LazavUB
GU Momir VigUG
played ww,monoU three times, monoR aggro, grixis control, gw midrange between the two of us and won them all. It really wasn't close. Skylashers in the board are great.
Ya I have been noticing most of my wins aren't very close... But when you lose to side hate, you lose damn hard.... Esper control can get you pretty good without hate as well... And if monoU gets a big master or two then can out swarm you really fast..
WW is pretty ez and even more so with 3 golgary charms bored in
EDH
BU LazavUB
GU Momir VigUG
I like it conceptually, though keeping the creature count high is important, and it doesn't do enough to deserve a spell slot. I like Auramancer a bit more, as it adds to the creature count. Maybe Pharika's Mender which has a respectable body, without needing additional colors, though she is a tad on the expensive side.
Then again, recurring creatures makes your other guys less effective, so I think the deck might be better with just adding more creatures. The non-creature spells just don't seem like something that worth recurring. Maybe if the deck ran a decent removal package.
Remember that Treasured Find is tempo loss. Whatever you recur with it has to make up for the mana spent recurring it. It's basically unplayable before turn six in other words, so you have to tailor around that specifically.
I don't know. I'm sure it can be made to work, I'm just not sure if it will be any better. Testing time I guess.
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Has anyone tried Returned Centaur. He's an okay blocker that mills 4, then dies, adding to your GY creature count. Seems like a good play at any stage in the game, whether winning or losing. Sure, he isn't very impressive stat wise, but he serves a function and does it well.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
There are three reasons Garruk doesn't fit the deck.
1. The high creature count is to support three cards. Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, Nighthowler, and Nemesis of Mortals. The deck needs a large number of creatures in the graveyard, so it runs a large number of creatures to bin with mill spells. Garruk doesn't help bin creatures, only get them to our hands, which isn't important.
2. The reason the deck runs so many mana dorks is that it gets stronger with more creatures in the yard. The mana dorks are run in place of lands. They aren't there to ramp. Hence, Garruk costs way too much mana for this deck to cast reliably.
3. Garruk isn't a creature. Every non creature in the deck weakens the primary game plan. Because of this, all non creature need to be able to A) mill cards, or B) be so outright powerful that it makes up for the weakening of the deck overall. Garruk does neither of those.
As for the Hydra, it isn't going to make the deck any worse, but it doesn't have any synergy with the deck as whole. It works well with Jarad, which is nice. I could see it ran in some decks, but I wouldn't advocate it myself.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
0-2 vs White Weenies splashing black?
2-0 vs Mono Blue
2-0 vs an Esper aggro brew
0-2 vs Mono Black
Felt like i drew very poorly against the WW and monoB decks... no real breakthroughs or anything but i'm really underwhelmed by deadbridge chant. Also, I have a split of ultimate price, putrefy and abrupt decay in my SB and I always end up wanting all of them when I do want removal spells. Need a better read on the meta I expect to tighten that up, I think.
There are only four cards in standard that benefit from having a bunch of creatures in the yard. Jarad, howler, shadowborn, and NoM. Jarad is legendary, and has recursion, so he can't really be four of. 2-3 by popular opinion. Howler is already a four of, amd the demon is bad in some match ups. Sure, you could cut the NoM for more demons, but then you would only have 11 (high estimate) reasons to dredge, and your control match up woukd plummet. I'd say NoM is a necessary evil.
That said, you could cut some number of Nemesis and be alright, though I would't recommend cutting all of them. If you aren't expecting control, cut two and move the 2 demon main.
The problem with NoM is that he is a dumb beater. That is also the problem with most of the deck. But that is outweighed by the number of dumb beaters. Between Jarad, Howler, and Nemesis, the deck runs 11 cards that are basically 4 mana 10/10's. If your nemesis eats a doomblade you can always just cast another 10/10. If you are getting chump blocked, you are winning. I think Nemesis is just fine given his context and the lack of suitable replacements.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
The core of the deck usually remains the same in most of these, but Id like to get some input from someone that plays this deck regularly.
Thanks.
Been practicing since Dec with this build.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Manaweft Sliver
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Nighthowler
2 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
2 Shadowborn Demon
4 Nemesis of Mortals
2 Korozda Guildmage
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Grisly Salvage
Lands:19
7 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
6 Swamp
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Skylasher
3 Golgari Charm
3 Putrefy
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Shadowborn Demon
1 Abrupt Decay
Last week, we had 2 tournaments. A small one with money prizes and PTQ.
Won the small one and placed 21th on the PTQ (4-2)
Faced, Esper control, UW control, Naya and Esper humans.
And on the PTQ: Maze End(L), RG Monsters(W), Jund(L), MonoU(W), RWB Control(W) and Rakdos Aggro(W).
The Korozda Guildmage did a lot of work on some matches, but i think only 1 is correct, didn't like the 2nd one at all.
Almost always sided in the 3rd Demon, thinking about main decking it.
Not quite convinced with the sliver, Gyre Sage might be better.
MonoU is probably the worst matchup with this list at least game 1, need to test with a 3rd demon in the main.