Mainboard thoughtseize was good. Decided shocking myself just for sin collectors wasn't good enough. Tried disciple over gift of orzhova today... and it was alright. Much worse if they have a skullcrack, but otherwise it was reasonable.
Went for the 3rd jarad over the 1 korozda guildmage because I think Jarad gets you those wins out of nowhere that are probably better than incremental advantages that korozda GM might have.
I beat UW heroic, GW aggro, Wr humans, and went to time vs monoB splashing R.
Thoughts: Might go with a gatecreeper vine over the manaweft sliver. 19 lands tonight played much better than a 20 land version I played a few days ago. Thoughtseize was quite good mainboard. Occasionally did miss having the drown in filths though, particularly vs the first 3 decks. Not sure if it deserves slots.
Btw I am disappointed this thread / deck wasn't called He Went to Jarad after all!
Its K I've called mine that since I've been working on it. (Originally it was Gary Went to jarads but then grey merchant got cut when the deck went all mana dorks)
question, is deathrite a must in the deck? I'm asking cause I dont have it and I dont feel like spending for a playset if it's not a must for the deck. Any opinions on cutting them for something else?
You could not run them, you also could not run grisly salvage, the deck is strictly better if you run them but you know its possible I mean you aren't getting dqed as long as the deck is 60.
I know you said you cut DiF for meta reasons, but if you were to keep them in, what would you remove?
TBH I'm happy conely cut the DiF in his latest brew as the card is ****ing terrible and although I was hoping he would stop promoting it. Run Abrupt decay or thoughtseize md, throughtseize hits demon, decay reliably hits just about everything else that is a problem for you. Personally I prefer decay as it has a better chance of hitting ooze than thoughtseize does.
Just tested the deck a bit myself, using a pretty standard list minus DRS (didn't have them on me). I liked Rot Farm Skeleton as an answer to Desecration Demon, it was pretty hilarious.
I keep coming back to Pharika's Mender, I keep thinking it might be worth a slot.
Rot farm is interesting but as much as I like mender the deck doesn't want to be too top heavy and it wants the demon as catch all removal and a huge evasive threat.
Testing season 1: I prefer 4 DRS over the Elvish Mystic, maybe they are the slots I need to have them in MB. Also, I'm worry about the lack of removal, if I face a creature bigger than mine I'll have a problem.
I'm not feeling the white splash. But maybe it is the answer for the control matchup (which has been much worse for me than monoblue).
He cut it from his new article, you don't do that in a deck with 19 lands, its too cute and it makes the early game less consistent. Sin collector is also absolutly terrible against non-esper decks, just stick to thoughtseize.
No, I don't think I would. I don't see what adding more trolls would do to improve the matchups that are difficult for the deck.
They're actually really good against esper as they they have to d-sphere to kill them. Troll can slow roll a win and threatens a very short clock with nighthowler so tapping out is a no go as well.
I think those decks are gearing up to face mono blue. In almost any other matchup, whip is incredible and has to stay somewhere in the 75.
TBH I would sb it, not because its not great but because the deck needs to be 28-29 creatures and 12 spells to dredge effectively. That gives you room for the 8 enablers and 4 removal.
People really need to start reading this card better. It returns all creatures from graveyard to hand, effectively killing Nighthowler, making Jarad a 2/2 and turning Nemesis to 6CC.
...at which point you discard them all back to the yard via the troll and swing for the lulz. I've been testing it to hilarious effect.
Private Mod Note
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"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright,
it may take some time to explain." Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Dropbox: You can lose a flash drive, but you'll never lose a dropbox!
So guys, time to order some cards. Do I order Overgrown Tombs and Deathrite Shaman-s for this deck and build it?
yes, since shamans will never go down in price and shocks are modern you can't lose value, deck is fun as hell.
So I went to FNM with the following list taking third place 4-1
A few cards I was testing as one offs side and main
rot farm skeleton: as a one of the card was simply amazing. A few games playing from the graveyard made all the difference. One game vs esper he literally won it himself. If I ever drew it in hand he just got tossed to a troll. One is perfect, he is a card I never want to see 2 of but am always happy to see 1
Gyre Sage: another card I was trying instead of a catryd. I remember once I wish it was a mana dork when I used it. It ended up producing the mana when I had to have it anyways. A few times I was incredibly glad it wasn't a caryatid. Will keep as a 1 of unless I get rid of it or go 2-2 with caryatids.
abrupt decay, hero's downfall, and ultamit price knew I wanted some removal side but didn't know which way to go, ult price was meh since I didn't care about any of those creatures, heros downfall never got sided in but I used abrupt decay all evening. Main creature I needed to kill was boros reckoned, so it's going to be 2 decays and 1 downfall
Matchups
Rw Burn 0-2
Both games he topdecked the perfect burn spells turn before I attacked for lethal.. Scrying in that deck is just silly...
Naya creatures? 2-0
Weird deck, he ended up doing ok going 3-1-1 but just every creature I played outclassed his almost two fold.
UW control with creature side 2-0
He just couldn't keep up with huge creatures game 1.
Game 2 he tried his creature sidebored which was even worse... He didn't know what to do and I could tell.
Esper control 2-0 (standard Starcitygames list)
Game 1 he just couldn't deal with rot farm skeleton lol. He used sphere on my troll and nemesis and just kept killing the skeleton...
Game 2 he dropped turn 5 blood baron, that's after my lifebane got his other one lol. But insterestily enough I find blood baron not a problem at all. He couldn't swing with it cause my nemesis woulda crushed it. And eventually I was able to Jared him to death. Last turn he sphinxes for 10 and I still was able to do like 25 damage to him for well past lethal.
Big boros 2-0
Game one was him mulling to 5 and my opening 7 cards were perfect. Going first I ended up turn 3 casting two nemisis... He just looked at me and scooped...
Game 2 was me causing a little damage, he counters by two boros reckoners but is unable to attack. We durtle a little but my late game just slaughters his. My shadowborns laugh at his dragons and he can't attack with reckoners... I was able to just wait untill I saw Jerid and shoot him down.
Overall the deck is really fun and a lot of other decks just cant handle such big creatures so fast. You come out of the gate gate fast and your late game is amazing.
But never did see a scooze and no one sides grave hate so we will see. I know I can't play this deck every Monday and FNM but it's great.
As for card changes. Mainbored I tossed in 2 thoughtsieze replacing drown in filth. I still like having one since my area is aggro heavy and thoughtsieze isn't always the best for that.
Side got some changed however. I find when I side I more often then not want to side in creatures vs non creatures since it makes the deck flow better. Mistcutter vs monoU and control just are amazing and keep the creature count high. Green god is a trial because 9 times out of 10 I found I wish my lotleth troll gave my other creatures trample instead. Most of the time night howler on troll just doesn't work right or you draw them out of order. So I am testing one nylea mainbored. I will let you know.
Updated list, after a few test matches I am much happier with the side.
as for bad matchups I find that blood baron is worthless vs this deck. He is simply outclassed by nemesis and rarely can attack because I would just smash them back for much more damage. Also elves with nighthowler enchanted are a great way to stop barons lol....
Scavenging ooze. So far I have played a few matchups vs this little bugger... Easily the worst card to play against... I still win half the matchups vs them but it's not very easy at all...
Esper/UW control. Honestly the two times I played vs them I didn't drop a game... I can almost see them siding grave hate if I keep it up lol...
Mono blue. It got hated out of my meta so I am litterally the only person who plays it (my other deck) so I have yet to play vs it.... But I got mistcutters and golgary Charm side so who knows.
Looks like a lot of fun and it’s great you’ve had such success with it. How has the drop in numbers of Filth affected the deck?
Not sure... Havnt tested it much but I have noticed once the deck gets rolling you really don't care what creatures your opponent players because they are just outclassed. The big creatures that I need to remove are scooze, reckoner, and nightviel.
Thoughtsieze is situational and probably go back to sidebored. My meta is mostly aggro and creature based except for last FNM where midrange seemed the most.
Best decks last FNM
1: naya control
2: Wb humans
3: bg dredge (me)
4: BRW midrange
So I feel thoughtsieze is the way to go right now. If anything I will probably bring abrupt decay in those two slots since I need reliable removal more then 2 more graveyard fillers.
How have people found the deck when not playing Whip of Erebos? I've found that it has helped quite significantly in a few matchups, like against a few aggro decks. It puts me out of range of their hits, and punishes them twice for attacking (my huge creatures plus lifegain).
I've noticed people are playing it less and less now, but I'm hesitant to do so because it has helped me win so many matches.
How have people found the deck when not playing Whip of Erebos? I've found that it has helped quite significantly in a few matchups, like against a few aggro decks. It puts me out of range of their hits, and punishes them twice for attacking (my huge creatures plus lifegain).
I've noticed people are playing it less and less now, but I'm hesitant to do so because it has helped me win so many matches.
I honestly am going to put it back in the side since I have been having a hard time vs RW burn, they always seem to kill me one turn too soon and just don't care about my creatures
put this together on MODO this morning and have been playing it all day. what a blast!! i have been running 4 shadowborn demons and only 3 nemesis of mortals: the demon is a HOUSE in this deck! i have also been only running 19 lands and 1 jarad. will post up my decklist when i get a bit of time. i also run 3 abrupt decay/2 hero's downfall main. don't like the lack of removal in some of the lists ive seen but it's just my personal preference
I put this deck together and played a few games with it, I really wanted it to be good but I couldn't win a single game. I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong but it seems extremely luck dependent, I lost to some Bant hexproof nonsense because all I could play was Caryatids while all my Communes and Salvages hit nothing but chunks of lands and more Communes and Salvages. Is that just one of those things that happens? Was I extremely unlucky? Or can this deck just do nothing and lose some games
This is the deck I tried.
I thought Pit Fight and Reaper of the Wilds would be clever but they turned out to be pretty bad. Reaper was just really out of place with the rest of the deck and I don't think I had a good opportunity to play Pit Fight once.
Been really interested in this deck since its inception and testing it like mad. I can say for sure that it is OUTRAGEOUSLY fun to play with and incredibly explosive. Definitely appreciate everyone's discussion in the thread, lotta good ideas being thrown around and the deck has made a ton of progress from the original. Here's what I've been working with:
My $.02:
1. Following an offhand suggestion earlier in the thread, I put in Gatecreeper Vine and found I like it a lot more than Sylvan Caryatid . Tutoring up land has been much more valuable to me than the ramp and allows me to comfortably play 19 lands vs. 20. I'll keep any starting hand with two mana and a GCV or Grisly Salvage , easy.
Basically this change came about after getting my mana dorks totally blown out on board wipes over and over again ( Anger of the Gods is particularly nasty w/exile clause). Seriously, you CANNOT recover from that. Golgari Charm is nice tech, obviously, but it's all too easy to dredge right past them. Smoothing out the land plays is superior to ramping because it's hard to consistently draw them with such a low count. I don't feel like I'm losing out with the ramp-aspect because I'm not really ramping into anything in particular.
Regarding the drop from 0/3 to 0/2: I do hate giving up the point of toughness because it can hurt vs. blitz aggro but the GCV's have the advantage of never being tapped. I could see the drop from 3 to 2 toughness being critical if you're in an aggro-heavy meta (mine isn't) so it might not be the right call there. You miss that toughness point vs. Mutavault big time, too.
I'm also wondering about doing something like a 3-3-3-3 split on DRS, GCV, Elvish Mystic , and Caryatid. (I do hate to give up the shaman's utility though, he is a WORKHORSE). I don't think going above 12 mana dorks is worthwhile though, it would really begin to dilute the threat density in the deck.
Would love to hear what others think about this.
2. I really not into Drown in Filth . Unreliable, sorcery speed, and a major nonbo with DRS's potential ramp. I'm much preferring Rot Farm Skeleton as extra dredge - he's a great pitch to Lotleth Troll , keeps Desecration Demon at bay, and makes for really awkward combat's for the opponent - block and likely lose a creature (4/1!) to feed my dredge, or take 4 on the face? Started with a 1-of per other's suggestions here, now moved up to 2. I like seeing him. If the 2nd comes up he can just rot (harhar) in my graveyard the whole game.
3. Commune with the gods might be the weakest card in this deck. Seriously, I think I hate casting this thing. Sorcery speed and only picks up creatures (or the max 3 enchantments in this list…). It gets the job done, but just barely. In the future I'd like to test running another Deadbridge Chant main and 3x CWtG's - I find DBC to be a major bomb, PACKS the GY for our money cards and gives recurring card advantage (major props if you can use your Shamans to mold your GY for max value on creatures, that's a lot easier on paper than IRL though). Anyway, it's something to consider.
4. I'm definitely getting good value out of Abrupt Decay in the MD. It's such a versatile card and we need some kind of removal for the early game before Shadowborn Demon . It's never been a dead card in my hand and it's ammo for a DRS in the 'yard. I could also see swapping this out for Heros Downfall . Either way, I find having a little bit of removal is important. Scavenging Ooze is not your friend.
Misc thoughts:
*A 4-tet of Trolls is a must, in my opinion. His trample action and Jarad's fling are the main win cons here, as Nemesis of Mortals is so easily chump blocked.
*I stick with just 2 Jarad's because in a pinch you can always sac the lands to get him back for a mortal fling (tapping the lands, sacking the lands, then eating said lands with 2 DRS to cast Jarad is obviously the ultimate magic christmasland scenario)
*Don't have much to say on the sideboard at the moment - I'm not settled on anything and just going on gut for siding. Definitely like the following:
but not sure on the numbers. The other cards in there are just my most recent guesses, essentially. Could see going up to 2 on whips in SB for vs. aggro but I hate the nonbo with the rest of the deck as creatures get exiled from the GY. Slum Reaper seems sweet, but not sure where to use him.
*I think the suggestion of Flesh//Blood could be worth exploring. Seems like legitimate bomb potential.
Anyway, I think this deck has some potential to grow still and could be a solid competitor at some point. At least until it gets too popular and people start siding Rest in Peace
My $.02:
1. Following an offhand suggestion earlier in the thread, I put in Gatecreeper Vine and found I like it a lot more than Sylvan Caryatid .
I think I suggested GCV-- and I play it over the manaweft sliver. I don't think I would put it in over more than 1 caryatid because there have been occasions where I put nighthowler on caryatid to have a giant hexproof wall. Eventually I found Jarad and flung the caryatidhowler twice to kill my opponent.
I have a very similar build, or had, rather. I eventually realized that it just worked better to play white for ghost daddy, AoS, o ring, and ashen rider. the drown doesn't really work too well is another problem. Not because of not hitting lands, but because 4 cards isn't enough and it rarely actually removes something effectively. I would be totally sold on it if it were instant but unfortunately it has to be not so great. Shadowborn is a house of course, and Nemesis I have found to be a pretty brutal play, especially as a 10/10 for 4-7 even. However, the best way it works it seems is WITH a whip, otherwise a 10/10 just isn't good enough, which is sad to say but it's true. He is blocked all day long and in the end you just putter out unless you are gaining life with the whip with it. 10/10 with lifelink is, I think, at least 3 times better than a 10/10. It is such a devastating attacker and blocker. Another great way I have found to play it is with Mogis's Marauder. When you have a surprise intimidate haste lifelink 10/10 you seal the game right there. With a Nighthowler in the mix it just becomes stupid. Also, GRAY MERCHANT is just freaking bonkers and should be included for sure. It really screws up your opponents plans. It forces them into a defensive position when they were in an offensive position the turn prior. And whipping gary back is just stupidly powerful. I think this really as a shot at being an underground "surprise I'm going to win with Nivmagus Elemental or Nivix Cyclops!" type deal. It isn't good enough yet with the cards available to be a reckoning force in competitive magic. Other decks do what this deck does but faster, cheaper, and more consistently. A major issue is that pure value town is dominating. There are just so many cards that are blatantly powerful that decks like this will have a hard time keeping up as things stand. I do expect there to be some gems in the next set that will contribute to making this deck shine. When that day comes, I will be all over this hoe. :3
Land count is a little higher than other builds due to having only 8 mana dorks, Scavenging Ooze is in the deck so that you can remove creatures from your opponents graveyard in case of a Underworld Cerberus trigger, Varolz, the Scar-Striped, and Tymaret, the Murder King are used as sacrifice outlets, and everything else is self explanatory.
Comments, constructive criticism, and questions always welcome.
EDIT: Took out the Rot Farm Skeleton for another forest. Don't know how people are managing with so few lands in their decks.
Took this to FNM today-- there were only 8 people though so we just did 3 rounds... guess people are busy with holidays and stuff. Anyway, here were my matches:
1-2 MonoBlue
Lost to multiple master of waves and never saw my golgari charms, ultimate price, putrefy, etc to kill them. I am going to buy a set of skylashers and try and see how to improve this horrible matchup...
2-1 MonoBlack splashing Red
This guy splashed red for chandra pyromaster, stormbreath dragon, mizzium mortars and some other stuff. They were close games, but the backbreaker here was whip of erebos and nighthowler. They bought me enough time so that I could sacrifice dudes to tap his desecration demons and swing in for the win.
2-1 RB Aggro
Spike jesters, tormented heroes, mogis' marauder, cackler, madcap skills... He just ran me over game 1, but once i sided into removal and nylea's disciple I was able to stem the bleeding. I feel like he sided poorly because in games 2 and 3 I saw xathrid necromancer and lifebane zombie. I suspect if he stayed low curve and streamlined, I would have lost. Golgari charm is amazing here.
I still don't understand Underworld Cerberus. If it dies, it kills Nighthowler and makes Jarad a 2/2. Then you get a hand full of Nemesis which you can't cast cheaply. It also makes Deathrite useless late game.
I think he uses it to make it so his opponents can't target cards in his graveyard. He uses scavenging ooze in response to cerberus' dies trigger to limit the opponent's benefit. And if lotleth troll happens to be in play or in the graveyard, he can easily pitch the creatures he picks up back into the graveyard.
I don't think Tyramet/Cerberus is better than Jarad/Shadowborn though
I feel like not playing at least 4 removal spells in the main deck is a big, big mistake, as can be seen by your description of your matchups.
It's certainly reasonable to mainboard removal spells and leave the thoughtseizes in the board. I might try it next once I figure out how many I'll even have in the sideboard. I plan to have some number of skylashers to shore up the monoU matchup. Likely it will be the 2 lifebane zombies and a whip of erebos leaving for a set of 3 skylashers. Slum reaper hasn't been terrible so far but I don't think I've tested it enough to make the call. It hasn't been amazing though so I could see it dropping out too.
However, with regards to the RB match... if I had had a thoughtseize in hand, I would've been perfectly fine (forcing him to discard madcap skills). So replacing the thoughtseizes with removal wouldn't have helped me there.
Been thinking about trying this deck at my LGS. How does it fare against U/W or esper control and RWB midrange. They are the most played decks other than mono red at my shop.
Hey - i'm not really a dredge kind of player most of the time but i was being a super johnny today and trying to figure out if there was a way to crack auramancer.
What i at first conceived was a bestow deck which turned into a nighthowler deck which eventually became something that resembled this list in quite a few ways.
I bring it up because one person mentioned the need for a way to reliably recur threats, and auramancer does that pretty well if there's enough bestow creatures. It also makes you more consistently able to have whip of erebos.
So my list (which was never tested by the way) had shamans, mystics, salvage, commune, nighthowler, lotleth troll, jarad and whip of erebos as the centerpieces. I figured that the big plays would be something like:
Cast auramancer, return nighthowler to hand, bestow nighthowler on auramancer. Then auramancer swings until killed, the nighthowler repeats the threat as a creature, then jarad recurs and flings nighthowler. Something like that. I also had pack rats and cartel aristocrats and a few other bestow creatures for what that's worth.
So i'm not going to invest too much time in this but i'd love to hear from a more experienced dredge player if any of you have considered this angle? The auramancer seems like it could shape some interesting plays for you guys.
Hey - i'm not really a dredge kind of player most of the time but i was being a super johnny today and trying to figure out if there was a way to crack auramancer.
What i at first conceived was a bestow deck which turned into a nighthowler deck which eventually became something that resembled this list in quite a few ways.
I bring it up because one person mentioned the need for a way to reliably recur threats, and auramancer does that pretty well if there's enough bestow creatures. It also makes you more consistently able to have whip of erebos.
So my list (which was never tested by the way) had shamans, mystics, salvage, commune, nighthowler, lotleth troll, jarad and whip of erebos as the centerpieces. I figured that the big plays would be something like:
Cast auramancer, return nighthowler to hand, bestow nighthowler on auramancer. Then auramancer swings until killed, the nighthowler repeats the threat as a creature, then jarad recurs and flings nighthowler. Something like that. I also had pack rats and cartel aristocrats and a few other bestow creatures for what that's worth.
So i'm not going to invest too much time in this but i'd love to hear from a more experienced dredge player if any of you have considered this angle? The auramancer seems like it could shape some interesting plays for you guys.
the deck runs 19-20 lands on average, adding another color for auramancer will just make the mana too unreliable for it. furthermore the only thing we can return will be nighthowler and that does not help the deck in anyway at all.
In a bestow deck it may be a decent idea but it's not gonna work for this deck
4 elvish mystic
3 jarad, golgari lich lord
3 lotleth troll
4 nemesis of mortals
4 nighthowler
2 shadowborn demon
4 sylvan caryatid
1 manaweft sliver
3 Thoughtseize
4 grisly salvage
1 whip of erebos
8 forest
4 overgrown tomb
7 swamp
1 deadbridge chant
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 golgari charm
2 nylea's disciple
1 slum reaper
1 Lotleth troll
1 whip of erebos
1 Putrefy
1 Ultimate Price
2 Shadowborn demon
Mainboard thoughtseize was good. Decided shocking myself just for sin collectors wasn't good enough. Tried disciple over gift of orzhova today... and it was alright. Much worse if they have a skullcrack, but otherwise it was reasonable.
Went for the 3rd jarad over the 1 korozda guildmage because I think Jarad gets you those wins out of nowhere that are probably better than incremental advantages that korozda GM might have.
I beat UW heroic, GW aggro, Wr humans, and went to time vs monoB splashing R.
Thoughts: Might go with a gatecreeper vine over the manaweft sliver. 19 lands tonight played much better than a 20 land version I played a few days ago. Thoughtseize was quite good mainboard. Occasionally did miss having the drown in filths though, particularly vs the first 3 decks. Not sure if it deserves slots.
Its K I've called mine that since I've been working on it. (Originally it was Gary Went to jarads but then grey merchant got cut when the deck went all mana dorks)
You could not run them, you also could not run grisly salvage, the deck is strictly better if you run them but you know its possible I mean you aren't getting dqed as long as the deck is 60.
TBH I'm happy conely cut the DiF in his latest brew as the card is ****ing terrible and although I was hoping he would stop promoting it. Run Abrupt decay or thoughtseize md, throughtseize hits demon, decay reliably hits just about everything else that is a problem for you. Personally I prefer decay as it has a better chance of hitting ooze than thoughtseize does.
Rot farm is interesting but as much as I like mender the deck doesn't want to be too top heavy and it wants the demon as catch all removal and a huge evasive threat.
Not running both is almost definitely terrible.
He cut it from his new article, you don't do that in a deck with 19 lands, its too cute and it makes the early game less consistent. Sin collector is also absolutly terrible against non-esper decks, just stick to thoughtseize.
They're actually really good against esper as they they have to d-sphere to kill them. Troll can slow roll a win and threatens a very short clock with nighthowler so tapping out is a no go as well.
TBH I would sb it, not because its not great but because the deck needs to be 28-29 creatures and 12 spells to dredge effectively. That gives you room for the 8 enablers and 4 removal.
...at which point you discard them all back to the yard via the troll and swing for the lulz. I've been testing it to hilarious effect.
it may take some time to explain."
Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
So I went to FNM with the following list taking third place 4-1
A few cards I was testing as one offs side and main
rot farm skeleton: as a one of the card was simply amazing. A few games playing from the graveyard made all the difference. One game vs esper he literally won it himself. If I ever drew it in hand he just got tossed to a troll. One is perfect, he is a card I never want to see 2 of but am always happy to see 1
Gyre Sage: another card I was trying instead of a catryd. I remember once I wish it was a mana dork when I used it. It ended up producing the mana when I had to have it anyways. A few times I was incredibly glad it wasn't a caryatid. Will keep as a 1 of unless I get rid of it or go 2-2 with caryatids.
abrupt decay, hero's downfall, and ultamit price knew I wanted some removal side but didn't know which way to go, ult price was meh since I didn't care about any of those creatures, heros downfall never got sided in but I used abrupt decay all evening. Main creature I needed to kill was boros reckoned, so it's going to be 2 decays and 1 downfall
Here is what is used
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Gyre Sage
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Nighthowler
3 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
2 Shadowborn Demon
4 Nemesis of Mortals
4 Commune with the Gods
3 Drown in Filth
4 Grisly Salvage
Lands:20
7 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
7 Swamp
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ultimate Price
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Nylea's Disciple
1 Shadowborn Demon
Matchups
Rw Burn 0-2
Both games he topdecked the perfect burn spells turn before I attacked for lethal.. Scrying in that deck is just silly...
Naya creatures? 2-0
Weird deck, he ended up doing ok going 3-1-1 but just every creature I played outclassed his almost two fold.
UW control with creature side 2-0
He just couldn't keep up with huge creatures game 1.
Game 2 he tried his creature sidebored which was even worse... He didn't know what to do and I could tell.
Esper control 2-0 (standard Starcitygames list)
Game 1 he just couldn't deal with rot farm skeleton lol. He used sphere on my troll and nemesis and just kept killing the skeleton...
Game 2 he dropped turn 5 blood baron, that's after my lifebane got his other one lol. But insterestily enough I find blood baron not a problem at all. He couldn't swing with it cause my nemesis woulda crushed it. And eventually I was able to Jared him to death. Last turn he sphinxes for 10 and I still was able to do like 25 damage to him for well past lethal.
Big boros 2-0
Game one was him mulling to 5 and my opening 7 cards were perfect. Going first I ended up turn 3 casting two nemisis... He just looked at me and scooped...
Game 2 was me causing a little damage, he counters by two boros reckoners but is unable to attack. We durtle a little but my late game just slaughters his. My shadowborns laugh at his dragons and he can't attack with reckoners... I was able to just wait untill I saw Jerid and shoot him down.
Overall the deck is really fun and a lot of other decks just cant handle such big creatures so fast. You come out of the gate gate fast and your late game is amazing.
But never did see a scooze and no one sides grave hate so we will see. I know I can't play this deck every Monday and FNM but it's great.
As for card changes. Mainbored I tossed in 2 thoughtsieze replacing drown in filth. I still like having one since my area is aggro heavy and thoughtsieze isn't always the best for that.
Side got some changed however. I find when I side I more often then not want to side in creatures vs non creatures since it makes the deck flow better. Mistcutter vs monoU and control just are amazing and keep the creature count high. Green god is a trial because 9 times out of 10 I found I wish my lotleth troll gave my other creatures trample instead. Most of the time night howler on troll just doesn't work right or you draw them out of order. So I am testing one nylea mainbored. I will let you know.
Updated list, after a few test matches I am much happier with the side.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Gyre Sage
2 Lotleth Troll
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Nighthowler
3 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
2 Shadowborn Demon
4 Nemesis of Mortals
2 Thoughtseize
4 Commune with the Gods
1 Drown in Filth
4 Grisly Salvage
Lands:20
7 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
7 Swamp
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Nylea's Disciple
1 Shadowborn Demon
Scavenging ooze. So far I have played a few matchups vs this little bugger... Easily the worst card to play against... I still win half the matchups vs them but it's not very easy at all...
Esper/UW control. Honestly the two times I played vs them I didn't drop a game... I can almost see them siding grave hate if I keep it up lol...
Mono blue. It got hated out of my meta so I am litterally the only person who plays it (my other deck) so I have yet to play vs it.... But I got mistcutters and golgary Charm side so who knows.
EDH
BU LazavUB
GU Momir VigUG
Not sure... Havnt tested it much but I have noticed once the deck gets rolling you really don't care what creatures your opponent players because they are just outclassed. The big creatures that I need to remove are scooze, reckoner, and nightviel.
Thoughtsieze is situational and probably go back to sidebored. My meta is mostly aggro and creature based except for last FNM where midrange seemed the most.
Best decks last FNM
1: naya control
2: Wb humans
3: bg dredge (me)
4: BRW midrange
So I feel thoughtsieze is the way to go right now. If anything I will probably bring abrupt decay in those two slots since I need reliable removal more then 2 more graveyard fillers.
EDH
BU LazavUB
GU Momir VigUG
I've noticed people are playing it less and less now, but I'm hesitant to do so because it has helped me win so many matches.
I honestly am going to put it back in the side since I have been having a hard time vs RW burn, they always seem to kill me one turn too soon and just don't care about my creatures
EDH
BU LazavUB
GU Momir VigUG
Which list did you put together?
This is the deck I tried.
I thought Pit Fight and Reaper of the Wilds would be clever but they turned out to be pretty bad. Reaper was just really out of place with the rest of the deck and I don't think I had a good opportunity to play Pit Fight once.
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
3 Lotleth Troll
4 Nemesis of Mortals
4 Nighthowler
3 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
2 Shadowborn Demon
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Pit Fight
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Hero's Downfall
Sorceries: 4
4 Commune with the Gods
Lands: 20
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Golgari Guildgate
8 Forest
5 Swamp
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
1 Shadowborn Demon
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
2 Dark Betrayal
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Deadbridge Chant
2 Lifebane Zombie
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Gatecreeper Vine
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Nighthowler
4 Nemesis of Mortals
2 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
2 Shadowborn Demon
2 Rot Farm Skeleton
4 Grisly Salvage
1 Deadbridge Chant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Golgari Guildgate
8 Forest
5 Swamp
1 Deadbridge Chant
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Golgari Charm
1 Shadowborn Demon
2 Slum Reaper
2 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Heros Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
1 Whip of Erebos
My $.02:
1. Following an offhand suggestion earlier in the thread, I put in Gatecreeper Vine and found I like it a lot more than Sylvan Caryatid . Tutoring up land has been much more valuable to me than the ramp and allows me to comfortably play 19 lands vs. 20. I'll keep any starting hand with two mana and a GCV or Grisly Salvage , easy.
Basically this change came about after getting my mana dorks totally blown out on board wipes over and over again ( Anger of the Gods is particularly nasty w/exile clause). Seriously, you CANNOT recover from that. Golgari Charm is nice tech, obviously, but it's all too easy to dredge right past them. Smoothing out the land plays is superior to ramping because it's hard to consistently draw them with such a low count. I don't feel like I'm losing out with the ramp-aspect because I'm not really ramping into anything in particular.
Regarding the drop from 0/3 to 0/2: I do hate giving up the point of toughness because it can hurt vs. blitz aggro but the GCV's have the advantage of never being tapped. I could see the drop from 3 to 2 toughness being critical if you're in an aggro-heavy meta (mine isn't) so it might not be the right call there. You miss that toughness point vs. Mutavault big time, too.
I'm also wondering about doing something like a 3-3-3-3 split on DRS, GCV, Elvish Mystic , and Caryatid. (I do hate to give up the shaman's utility though, he is a WORKHORSE). I don't think going above 12 mana dorks is worthwhile though, it would really begin to dilute the threat density in the deck.
Would love to hear what others think about this.
2. I really not into Drown in Filth . Unreliable, sorcery speed, and a major nonbo with DRS's potential ramp. I'm much preferring Rot Farm Skeleton as extra dredge - he's a great pitch to Lotleth Troll , keeps Desecration Demon at bay, and makes for really awkward combat's for the opponent - block and likely lose a creature (4/1!) to feed my dredge, or take 4 on the face? Started with a 1-of per other's suggestions here, now moved up to 2. I like seeing him. If the 2nd comes up he can just rot (harhar) in my graveyard the whole game.
3. Commune with the gods might be the weakest card in this deck. Seriously, I think I hate casting this thing. Sorcery speed and only picks up creatures (or the max 3 enchantments in this list…). It gets the job done, but just barely. In the future I'd like to test running another Deadbridge Chant main and 3x CWtG's - I find DBC to be a major bomb, PACKS the GY for our money cards and gives recurring card advantage (major props if you can use your Shamans to mold your GY for max value on creatures, that's a lot easier on paper than IRL though). Anyway, it's something to consider.
4. I'm definitely getting good value out of Abrupt Decay in the MD. It's such a versatile card and we need some kind of removal for the early game before Shadowborn Demon . It's never been a dead card in my hand and it's ammo for a DRS in the 'yard. I could also see swapping this out for Heros Downfall . Either way, I find having a little bit of removal is important. Scavenging Ooze is not your friend.
Misc thoughts:
*A 4-tet of Trolls is a must, in my opinion. His trample action and Jarad's fling are the main win cons here, as Nemesis of Mortals is so easily chump blocked.
*I stick with just 2 Jarad's because in a pinch you can always sac the lands to get him back for a mortal fling (tapping the lands, sacking the lands, then eating said lands with 2 DRS to cast Jarad is obviously the ultimate magic christmasland scenario)
*Don't have much to say on the sideboard at the moment - I'm not settled on anything and just going on gut for siding. Definitely like the following:
- 1x Golgari Charm
- 1x Shadowborn Demon
- 1x Thoughtseize
- 1x Deadbridge chant
but not sure on the numbers. The other cards in there are just my most recent guesses, essentially. Could see going up to 2 on whips in SB for vs. aggro but I hate the nonbo with the rest of the deck as creatures get exiled from the GY. Slum Reaper seems sweet, but not sure where to use him.*I think the suggestion of Flesh//Blood could be worth exploring. Seems like legitimate bomb potential.
Anyway, I think this deck has some potential to grow still and could be a solid competitor at some point. At least until it gets too popular and people start siding Rest in Peace
I think I suggested GCV-- and I play it over the manaweft sliver. I don't think I would put it in over more than 1 caryatid because there have been occasions where I put nighthowler on caryatid to have a giant hexproof wall. Eventually I found Jarad and flung the caryatidhowler twice to kill my opponent.
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
7 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Nighthowler
2 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
3 Underworld Cerberus
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Whip of Erebos
Land count is a little higher than other builds due to having only 8 mana dorks, Scavenging Ooze is in the deck so that you can remove creatures from your opponents graveyard in case of a Underworld Cerberus trigger, Varolz, the Scar-Striped, and Tymaret, the Murder King are used as sacrifice outlets, and everything else is self explanatory.
Comments, constructive criticism, and questions always welcome.
EDIT: Took out the Rot Farm Skeleton for another forest. Don't know how people are managing with so few lands in their decks.
4 elvish mystic
3 jarad, golgari lich lord
3 lotleth troll
4 nemesis of mortals
4 nighthowler
2 shadowborn demon
4 sylvan caryatid
1 gatecreeper vine
3 Thoughtseize
4 grisly salvage
1 whip of erebos
8 forest
4 overgrown tomb
7 swamp
1 deadbridge chant
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 golgari charm
2 nylea's disciple
1 slum reaper
1 abrupt decay
1 whip of erebos
1 Putrefy
1 Ultimate Price
2 Shadowborn demon
Took this to FNM today-- there were only 8 people though so we just did 3 rounds... guess people are busy with holidays and stuff. Anyway, here were my matches:
1-2 MonoBlue
Lost to multiple master of waves and never saw my golgari charms, ultimate price, putrefy, etc to kill them. I am going to buy a set of skylashers and try and see how to improve this horrible matchup...
2-1 MonoBlack splashing Red
This guy splashed red for chandra pyromaster, stormbreath dragon, mizzium mortars and some other stuff. They were close games, but the backbreaker here was whip of erebos and nighthowler. They bought me enough time so that I could sacrifice dudes to tap his desecration demons and swing in for the win.
2-1 RB Aggro
Spike jesters, tormented heroes, mogis' marauder, cackler, madcap skills... He just ran me over game 1, but once i sided into removal and nylea's disciple I was able to stem the bleeding. I feel like he sided poorly because in games 2 and 3 I saw xathrid necromancer and lifebane zombie. I suspect if he stayed low curve and streamlined, I would have lost. Golgari charm is amazing here.
I think he uses it to make it so his opponents can't target cards in his graveyard. He uses scavenging ooze in response to cerberus' dies trigger to limit the opponent's benefit. And if lotleth troll happens to be in play or in the graveyard, he can easily pitch the creatures he picks up back into the graveyard.
I don't think Tyramet/Cerberus is better than Jarad/Shadowborn though
It's certainly reasonable to mainboard removal spells and leave the thoughtseizes in the board. I might try it next once I figure out how many I'll even have in the sideboard. I plan to have some number of skylashers to shore up the monoU matchup. Likely it will be the 2 lifebane zombies and a whip of erebos leaving for a set of 3 skylashers. Slum reaper hasn't been terrible so far but I don't think I've tested it enough to make the call. It hasn't been amazing though so I could see it dropping out too.
However, with regards to the RB match... if I had had a thoughtseize in hand, I would've been perfectly fine (forcing him to discard madcap skills). So replacing the thoughtseizes with removal wouldn't have helped me there.
What i at first conceived was a bestow deck which turned into a nighthowler deck which eventually became something that resembled this list in quite a few ways.
I bring it up because one person mentioned the need for a way to reliably recur threats, and auramancer does that pretty well if there's enough bestow creatures. It also makes you more consistently able to have whip of erebos.
So my list (which was never tested by the way) had shamans, mystics, salvage, commune, nighthowler, lotleth troll, jarad and whip of erebos as the centerpieces. I figured that the big plays would be something like:
Cast auramancer, return nighthowler to hand, bestow nighthowler on auramancer. Then auramancer swings until killed, the nighthowler repeats the threat as a creature, then jarad recurs and flings nighthowler. Something like that. I also had pack rats and cartel aristocrats and a few other bestow creatures for what that's worth.
So i'm not going to invest too much time in this but i'd love to hear from a more experienced dredge player if any of you have considered this angle? The auramancer seems like it could shape some interesting plays for you guys.
the deck runs 19-20 lands on average, adding another color for auramancer will just make the mana too unreliable for it. furthermore the only thing we can return will be nighthowler and that does not help the deck in anyway at all.
In a bestow deck it may be a decent idea but it's not gonna work for this deck