I don't think so. I know you can respond to an Undying creature with Scavenging Ooze, and the trigger never happens because the creature is no longer in the graveyard.
Longer explanation: Yes, the creature dies. And the ability from Athreos goes on the stack. You respond with Scavening Ooze targeting the creatures that just entered the graveyard. Scavenging Ooze exiles the creature, you don't pay for Athreos his ability and there is nothing to put back in the hand (It isn't in the graveyard anymore.)
Yeah, I believe this is how it would go. You're saying, "sure, get your creature back from the graveyard" but since it is no longer in the graveyard, there is nothing to take back.
It's similar to if you had Rest in Peace up. No need to pay 3 since that creature gets exiled since it hits the graveyard first.
Longer explanation: Yes, the creature dies. And the ability from Athreos goes on the stack. You respond with Scavening Ooze targeting the creatures that just entered the graveyard. Scavenging Ooze exiles the creature, you don't pay for Athreos his ability and there is nothing to put back in the hand (It isn't in the graveyard anymore.)
Yeah, I believe this is how it would go. You're saying, "sure, get your creature back from the graveyard" but since it is no longer in the graveyard, there is nothing to take back.
It's similar to if you had Rest in Peace up. No need to pay 3 since that creature gets exiled since it hits the graveyard first.
It's different than with Rest in Peace because RIP acts as a replacement effect and the creature never actually "dies"
But yes, you can exile the create and choose not to pay the life with Athreos.
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I'm a Nyx Weaver believer after more testing. Opponent attacks with board against my tapped Weaver with Nighthowler bestowed. I exile Weaver for a Shadowborn Demon, Nighthowler blocks and kills something. Next turn I cast the demon and kill his biggest guy. So great.
Plus, I like that you have additional reach versus stuff like Archangel of Thune and Desecration Demon. (And it straight up blocks a Nightveil Specter, no problem.)
I like your deck, but what do you think of cutting one Lotleth Troll for a fourth Satyr Wayfinder? Helps your "dredge" a little more and helps you find your lands that you really need. Also, I really think that Deathrite Shaman should be in the main deck, maybe for a couple Shadowborn Demons so that you can put those in the sideboard. I mean, yes a 5/6 flier is really good even against control, but Deathrite Shaman is so good in this deck. And with the 2 Deathrite Shamans, I think you could go back down to 20 lands to get your creature count back up to 30, which I think is where this deck wants to be in every game.
As well, you will notice that the only non-permanent spells in my deck are Grisly Salvage and Commune with the Gods and this is simply because I was often either not casting the spells that I had because I had better things to do and/or "dredging" them away. Between these two spells, we have great tutors/card drawers and I want to count on them as much as possible to create resources for me.
Biggest thing that I like about Nemesis of Mortals is that it allows you to often cast two spells on turn 3/4, which is really important for getting out in front of control. I often find myself casting a mana dork turn 1/2, casting a "dredger" turn 2/3, then casting another "dredger" and following that up with a Nemesis of Mortals on turn 3/4, which is a very powerful start to a game.
Anyway, to wrap this up, I really think that GB "Gravy" decks have a lot potential coming soon, and that you can play one of two different styles; either using the graveyard for "Tarmogoyf" style cards or using it as a resource for card advantage. Let me know what you think.
How has this worked out for you? I have an FNM tomorrow and started testing this today, but have already run into problems. For one, it slows the deck down considerably, and it’s not as if the deck were Aggro to start with! 3 out of 5 games I went up against last week with my BG deck were against some sort of Burn or Aggro/Burn variant, using cards like Madcap Skills, and lots of little creatures. I, however, couldn’t throw out enough creatures to block them all. Any time I didn’t block a creature I took 4 or 5 damage since they’d hit me with a Titan’s Strength.
In fact, after testing your build awhile, I’ve decided to add in some Nylea’s Disciples to help offset any lifeloss. I’m also feeling the lack of Loltrolls and Caryatids, so I might stick one of each back in.
I would never play less then 3 Sylvan Caryatids, very important to the deck to help slow down agro decks and help you ramp. This deck really wants to be casting two spells turn 3/4 to get as much "dredge" done as possible. I find that if I have two "dredgers" turn 3/4 I almost never lose. Also, not big on Nylea's Disciples honestly, being a 3/3 it dies way to easily and they run Skullcrack more often then not. If you read my post above, you will see that I use a much different style deck against those decks as often having just one big creature on the board isn't enough. You as well need a way to grind life with stuff like Scavenging Ooze or Courser of Kruphix and Whip of Erebos beats them. I have been having great results against red based agro decks using this strategy.
As for changing the name of the deck, go [deck = whatever] with no spaces.
Bugger, looks like I’ll have to trade aggressively for some Scoozes then! I have precisely zero at the moment. I do have one Courser though. I suppose I liked the idea of splashing red and including a playset of Rampagers for extra damage and giving things like NoM trample.
How has this worked out for you? I have an FNM tomorrow and started testing this today, but have already run into problems. For one, it slows the deck down considerably, and it’s not as if the deck were Aggro to start with! 3 out of 5 games I went up against last week with my BG deck were against some sort of Burn or Aggro/Burn variant, using cards like Madcap Skills, and lots of little creatures. I, however, couldn’t throw out enough creatures to block them all. Any time I didn’t block a creature I took 4 or 5 damage since they’d hit me with a Titan’s Strength.
In fact, after testing your build awhile, I’ve decided to add in some Nylea’s Disciples to help offset any lifeloss. I’m also feeling the lack of Loltrolls and Caryatids, so I might stick one of each back in.
If your local meta is that fast, then you need the Caryatids to replace the Deathrite Shaman. Also, put in 2 Courser of Kruphix in place of the Pyrewild Shaman and Xenagos. Then, I would replace the scry lands with more basic lands. This should help speed you up, curve out better, and block until you can build an insurmountable board state.
The Ghor-clan Rampagers are primarily to be Bloodrushed onto a Nighthowler'd creature, but I often hard cast them because they make good Nighthowler targets themselves.
Hope that helps.
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I'm interested in trying this deck. I've been playing Kibler's golgari aggro for a while. It just seems the new sets aren't offering any new tools for it and its getting outclassed by new cards. New cards see, to be more geared with this kind of golgari strategy in mind.
My question to players of this deck are
1). How do you guys deal with throwing away key cards into the graveyard? I feel like there might be a chance you might throw away key sideboard cards. That would suck.
I'm interested in trying this deck. I've been playing Kibler's golgari aggro for a while. It just seems the new sets aren't offering any new tools for it and its getting outclassed by new cards. New cards see, to be more geared with this kind of golgari strategy in mind.
My question to players of this deck are
1). How do you guys deal with throwing away key cards into the graveyard? I feel like there might be a chance you might throw away key sideboard cards. That would suck.
2). Is this deck difficult to pilot?
3). What are the bad matchups for this deck?
1) It is nice to know we won't be drawing it. In a game where you don't mill it, you will have no idea if you do or don't draw it. I find the certainty of it appealing. Also, milling has only the slightest effect on drawing a specific card, and only if you understand how card counting works.
2) On a scale of 1 to 5, 5 being legacy storm, and 1 being modern hexproof, I would rate it like so: Combat math 1, setup 3, choosing removal targets 2, sideboarding 3, playing effeiciently 4. So overall I would say no.
3. Depends who you ask. Mono blue devotion and red based aggro or burn seem to be the most complained about.
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Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
1). How do you guys deal with throwing away key cards into the graveyard? I feel like there might be a chance you might throw away key sideboard cards. That would suck.
It definitely happens, but its not as backbreaking as you think. In general youre either growing your howlers, finding whip targets, or feeding drs. Charm and Thoughtseize are binned sometimes, thats why you run multiples. You want them in your opening hand and then youre ok not drawing them for the rest of the game... Either way unlike classic dredge you *are* drawing each turn, so you might see more.
2). Is this deck difficult to pilot?
There are definitely some crucial decision trees, but this is also a deck with an "oops, i win" feel. Personally ive always felt close to winning even if i didnt, you're definitely bringing the game to your opponent. Plus you're abusing DRS, thats always fun. Theres a lot of combat phase shenanigans happening, too.
3). What are the bad matchups for this deck?
Fast burn, u devotion and anything running Scooze or Kiora.
So what cards will have the biggest impact on this deck? I have some thoughts, but I think its tough to chose what to remove for them.
Kruphix's Insight is interesting, but I think we would need to run a lot more Enchantment creatures and be more of a Eidolon of Blossoms deck. I think this card will have its biggest impact post-Ravnica. Grisly Salvage is just better, right?
Pharika, God of Affliction has been discussed previously I know, but I think thorough testing should be done to see if she fits or not, even if she's just a SB card.
Nyx Weaver is the card Im most interested about. It seems really good, its just what do we take out for it? Its possible that it doesn't belong because everything else is better, but the Reach against Mono U should make it a SB card at least.
Brain Maggot will be in my SB for sure, replacing thoughtseize. It may be that the crappy part of the card (where the player gets the card back) might not be worth it in the matchups I want it in, but having another body for a nighthowler is nice.
Master of the Feast is a card my buddy has been raving about, taking the place of Nemesis. His argument is that most of the time we're casting Nemesis for 3 or 4 anyway, so Master's evasion just makes him better. I will be testing him, but its possible he may be right or just way wrong. Or maybe it nudges something else out of the list.
Another thing I wanted to ask was what the correct manabase will be? Is Mana Confluence an auto 4 of? 2 of? And do we want a tap land in Temple of Malady? is that a 2 of? None of?
It's very standard, but I don't want to go too crazy initially with deck changes. Lotleth Troll, while I still think is a good card, is gone for Nyx Weaver. I feel that we don't want the full number of Temples because of how important it is our lands CIPT, but the scry is very useful. I'd aim for three at the most, I'm running two b/c that's all I have currently. I really don't like Mana Confluence, Pharika, or much else. Brain Maggot I'd like to fit in, but there's no room anywhere.
Comments on this archetype and some of the specific cards.
1. Sylvan Caryatid - People will argue the most with me here, but I hate this card in the list. I absolutely do not want a mana producer I cannot bestow on, and attack with. if I can't turn it sideways to deal damage, keep it out.
2. Lotleth Troll is incredible. Though I may someday consider 3, I'm very happy at 4 right now, as it closes games stupid quickly with Trample, and is very hard to remove. I swung with a like 9/8 trample troll on T4 against R/G monsters. His T4 Was Xenagos, and my T5 killed him when I cast Salvage EOT T4, and then literally just pitched my hand and plowed though the toughness of all his blockers. It was gross. Against Control, it's Sphere or bust, and it's great at killing Elspeth. Even against Mono B, it's VERY hard for them to kill, and races everything. Against just about anything else, it's worst case, it a blocker that blocks for DAYS.
3. I like Herald, it serve a purpose, but I have less need for it with Trolls and Trample, I like 2. Maybe 3. 4 was Way too many. There's also no direct Synergy in a synergy based deck.
4. Whip of Erebos - Why is anyone moving anywhere away from this card other than in on it? It's so good, gives so much staying power, and we can find it with serious consistency as a 2 of with Commune.
5. Jaraad, I'm at 2, I want 3. Card is so good. It's another "Nighthowler" type effect, it recurs in the late game, and can close a game the turn it comes down if it happens to go late. Having this guy and a whip in play makes you feel like you're cheating. I think the deck goes late more than people wanna say, but our cards get better in the late game, and we go over the top of EVERYTHING. I think we should put less focus on being super aggressive and just being consistent. What's with these 19/20 land lists? You're just asking for consistent mulligans. I'm thinking 21, possibly 22.
6. Nyx Weaver - This card will be amazing. The stats line up with what we would like from an early creature, blocks the obnoxious Specter for days, and the get a card from the grave ability is so good. Soooo good. Anything you've milled(AKA half your deck by the time you're looking to use it). It's practically a hard tutor for a 1 of answer, or a game closer, at instant speed. Much good.
7. Brain Maggot - Will also be very good, I will have some MB, some SB, but I doubt I'll play less than 4 in the 75.
8. Pharika - I think she's good, seriously. Nobody is forcing you to user her ability, she's safe to Bestow on, and is a big efficient Beater. She also bricks their ground troops, trumps re-animator strategies, and gives you death-touching bestow targets. I like her.
9. Kruphix's Insight, not terribly exciting. Would need to build around it to support it.
I really like some of the cards we're getting though, and will be sticking with this deck for awhile.
I'm a Nyx Weaver believer after more testing. Opponent attacks with board against my tapped Weaver with Nighthowler bestowed. I exile Weaver for a Shadowborn Demon, Nighthowler blocks and kills something. Next turn I cast the demon and kill his biggest guy. So great.
Plus, I like that you have additional reach versus stuff like Archangel of Thune and Desecration Demon. (And it straight up blocks a Nightveil Specter, no problem.)
I'm working on similar deck and Weaver has been performing better than I expected. He generates value during my upkeep, blocks all the little dorks, and then gets back my best card. Very strong. I'm running a mostly enchantment creature variant with 2 Extinguish All Hope.
Comments on this archetype and some of the specific cards.
1. Sylvan Caryatid - People will argue the most with me here, but I hate this card in the list. I absolutely do not want a mana producer I cannot bestow on, and attack with. if I can't turn it sideways to deal damage, keep it out.
I completely agree with you here. I cut the Caryatids a while back and, while it makes blocking against the hyper-aggro decks a little tougher, it really helps the deck produce more threats. Having a single Caryatid on board with a Nighthowler in hand is just plain annoying. I wanna beat people down.
2. Lotleth Troll is incredible. Though I may someday consider 3, I'm very happy at 4 right now, as it closes games stupid quickly with Trample, and is very hard to remove. Even against Mono B, it's VERY hard for them to kill, and races everything. Against just about anything else, it's worst case, it a blocker that blocks for DAYS.
I agree that Lotleth troll is a house. I can't go completely in on it being that great against Mono-blue. In fact, when I used to run Lotleth Trolls, I would side them out for Skylashers or Mistcutters. I think people unaccustomed to Standard Dredge underestimate Lotleth and how Trample can just..end games.
I replaced my Trolls with Ghor-Clan Rampagers since I'm on the Jund build, but if I went back to strictly GB I would have no less than 3 in my main board.
3. I like Herald, it serve a purpose, but I have less need for it with Trolls and Trample, I like 2. Maybe 3. 4 was Way too many. There's also no direct Synergy in a synergy based deck.
4. Whip of Erebos - Why is anyone moving anywhere away from this card other than in on it? It's so good, gives so much staying power, and we can find it with serious consistency as a 2 of with Commune.
I can't speak for others, but for me the main desirable attribute for Whip is the lifelink more than the reanimate ability. Don't get me wrong, the card is great, but I think Dredge benefits more from an insurmountable board state supported by a creature-heavy graveyard, than bringing back creatures from the graveyard itself.
With that, Whip of Erebos is more a support card for our deck than it is a main strategy (wheras Junk Reanimator relies on Whip/Obzedat's Aid). I side in Whip against aggro for the lifelink, and usually bring 1 in against Esper for some late-round reanimation.
5. Jaraad, I'm at 2, I want 3. Card is so good. It's another "Nighthowler" type effect, it recurs in the late game, and can close a game the turn it comes down if it happens to go late. Having this guy and a whip in play makes you feel like you're cheating. I think the deck goes late more than people wanna say, but our cards get better in the late game, and we go over the top of EVERYTHING. I think we should put less focus on being super aggressive and just being consistent. What's with these 19/20 land lists? You're just asking for consistent mulligans. I'm thinking 21, possibly 22.
Jarad is great, but since we can bring him back from the graveyard on our own, we can almost always pitch him after 'dredging'. And running more than 2 feels like it would lead to those awkward draws of having one in hand, one on the board, and one in the graveyard.
As for land counts, I think 20 is as greedy as we can get. With mana-dorks, Grisly Salvage, and Satyr Wayfinders, you can usually hit your 3rd land drop consistently enough to start making bombs. Going 21-22 lands is fair but it means you sacrifice some power for consistency - hard line to walk but worth testing.
6. Nyx Weaver - This card will be amazing. The stats line up with what we would like from an early creature, blocks the obnoxious Specter for days, and the get a card from the grave ability is so good. Soooo good. Anything you've milled(AKA half your deck by the time you're looking to use it). It's practically a hard tutor for a 1 of answer, or a game closer, at instant speed. Much good.
Nyx Weaver is just what this deck needs. It has a built-in enabler for our GY strategy, as well as replaces itself with - get this - any card of our choice from our GY.
Could we seriously ask for more? Maindecking 2 this weekend at the SCG Open in Cincy, may want more...
8. Pharika - I think she's good, seriously. Nobody is forcing you to user her ability, she's safe to Bestow on, and is a big efficient Beater. She also bricks their ground troops, trumps re-animator strategies, and gives you death-touching bestow targets. I like her.
I'm only barely sold on Pharika as a sideboard option for the mirror/reanimator match up, maybe Esper too - but even that is a stretch. She's only a beater with a hefty 7 GB devotion requirement which our deck isn't exactly flooding the board with tons of permanents (more like 2-3 strong ones). I doubt Pharika is online as a creature enough to make her worthy of a Nighthowler target, since as soon as she is offline the Nighthowler falls off. (Then using her ability makes that Nighthowler smaller). I discussed this pages back, and I think Pharika is counter-productive to our strategy and after testing, I still feel the same way.
It's not that the God is useless, it's that I can't fathom a real use for her that we can't get elsewhere for better value.
9. Kruphix's Insight, not terribly exciting. Would need to build around it to support it.
For those running heavy on Brain Maggot, Herald of Torment, and mainboard Whip of Erebos, this card is actually very very good and a strict upgrade to Commune. Also, I assume the Junk Reanimator decks will be running as many of these as they can.
My deck doesn't run enough enchantments to warrant playing this, however.
I share the excitement for what JOU brings this deck, and while I still believe Esper and Mono-black will continue to be the best decks in Standard, Dredge is a very strong strategy that can at any time of a game simply put an end to things.
Good luck to all in your testing and playing and I will post my results from the SCG Open this weekend on Monday/Tuesday.
Comments on this archetype and some of the specific cards.
1. Sylvan Caryatid - People will argue the most with me here, but I hate this card in the list. I absolutely do not want a mana producer I cannot bestow on, and attack with. if I can't turn it sideways to deal damage, keep it out.
I completely agree with you here. I cut the Caryatids a while back and, while it makes blocking against the hyper-aggro decks a little tougher, it really helps the deck produce more threats. Having a single Caryatid on board with a Nighthowler in hand is just plain annoying. I wanna beat people down.
2. Lotleth Troll is incredible. Though I may someday consider 3, I'm very happy at 4 right now, as it closes games stupid quickly with Trample, and is very hard to remove. Even against Mono B, it's VERY hard for them to kill, and races everything. Against just about anything else, it's worst case, it a blocker that blocks for DAYS.
I agree that Lotleth troll is a house. I can't go completely in on it being that great against Mono-blue. In fact, when I used to run Lotleth Trolls, I would side them out for Skylashers or Mistcutters. I think people unaccustomed to Standard Dredge underestimate Lotleth and how Trample can just..end games.
I replaced my Trolls with Ghor-Clan Rampagers since I'm on the Jund build, but if I went back to strictly GB I would have no less than 3 in my main board.
3. I like Herald, it serve a purpose, but I have less need for it with Trolls and Trample, I like 2. Maybe 3. 4 was Way too many. There's also no direct Synergy in a synergy based deck.
4. Whip of Erebos - Why is anyone moving anywhere away from this card other than in on it? It's so good, gives so much staying power, and we can find it with serious consistency as a 2 of with Commune.
I can't speak for others, but for me the main desirable attribute for Whip is the lifelink more than the reanimate ability. Don't get me wrong, the card is great, but I think Dredge benefits more from an insurmountable board state supported by a creature-heavy graveyard, than bringing back creatures from the graveyard itself.
With that, Whip of Erebos is more a support card for our deck than it is a main strategy (wheras Junk Reanimator relies on Whip/Obzedat's Aid). I side in Whip against aggro for the lifelink, and usually bring 1 in against Esper for some late-round reanimation.
5. Jaraad, I'm at 2, I want 3. Card is so good. It's another "Nighthowler" type effect, it recurs in the late game, and can close a game the turn it comes down if it happens to go late. Having this guy and a whip in play makes you feel like you're cheating. I think the deck goes late more than people wanna say, but our cards get better in the late game, and we go over the top of EVERYTHING. I think we should put less focus on being super aggressive and just being consistent. What's with these 19/20 land lists? You're just asking for consistent mulligans. I'm thinking 21, possibly 22.
Jarad is great, but since we can bring him back from the graveyard on our own, we can almost always pitch him after 'dredging'. And running more than 2 feels like it would lead to those awkward draws of having one in hand, one on the board, and one in the graveyard.
As for land counts, I think 20 is as greedy as we can get. With mana-dorks, Grisly Salvage, and Satyr Wayfinders, you can usually hit your 3rd land drop consistently enough to start making bombs. Going 21-22 lands is fair but it means you sacrifice some power for consistency - hard line to walk but worth testing.
6. Nyx Weaver - This card will be amazing. The stats line up with what we would like from an early creature, blocks the obnoxious Specter for days, and the get a card from the grave ability is so good. Soooo good. Anything you've milled(AKA half your deck by the time you're looking to use it). It's practically a hard tutor for a 1 of answer, or a game closer, at instant speed. Much good.
Nyx Weaver is just what this deck needs. It has a built-in enabler for our GY strategy, as well as replaces itself with - get this - any card of our choice from our GY.
Could we seriously ask for more? Maindecking 2 this weekend at the SCG Open in Cincy, may want more...
8. Pharika - I think she's good, seriously. Nobody is forcing you to user her ability, she's safe to Bestow on, and is a big efficient Beater. She also bricks their ground troops, trumps re-animator strategies, and gives you death-touching bestow targets. I like her.
I'm only barely sold on Pharika as a sideboard option for the mirror/reanimator match up, maybe Esper too - but even that is a stretch. She's only a beater with a hefty 7 GB devotion requirement which our deck isn't exactly flooding the board with tons of permanents (more like 2-3 strong ones). I doubt Pharika is online as a creature enough to make her worthy of a Nighthowler target, since as soon as she is offline the Nighthowler falls off. (Then using her ability makes that Nighthowler smaller). I discussed this pages back, and I think Pharika is counter-productive to our strategy and after testing, I still feel the same way.
It's not that the God is useless, it's that I can't fathom a real use for her that we can't get elsewhere for better value.
9. Kruphix's Insight, not terribly exciting. Would need to build around it to support it.
For those running heavy on Brain Maggot, Herald of Torment, and mainboard Whip of Erebos, this card is actually very very good and a strict upgrade to Commune. Also, I assume the Junk Reanimator decks will be running as many of these as they can.
My deck doesn't run enough enchantments to warrant playing this, however.
I share the excitement for what JOU brings this deck, and while I still believe Esper and Mono-black will continue to be the best decks in Standard, Dredge is a very strong strategy that can at any time of a game simply put an end to things.
Good luck to all in your testing and playing and I will post my results from the SCG Open this weekend on Monday/Tuesday.
On Lol Troll, I was talking about Mono Black. Against Mono U, yeah, probably a good cut for either of the Pro G dudes.
On the Whip, yeah, the lifelink is the biggest thing by far, but the ability to whip back in the later game is still quite good against any game going longer than 6 or 7 turns
I feel like people almost treat Pharika as a card where they NEED to use her ability, and you don't. Like it's mostly just going to be another hard to deal with, constantly active, fetchable off commune/insight, beatstick. The ability won't be something you're ALWAYS interested in, kind of like whipping a creature back, but it gives you something to do to fill in those awkward spots where maybe you're out of gas, or just don't have a good target for the Nighthowler in your hand, and will be pretty awesome against control lists, always having at least a few points of pressure on your opppo. Point is, if you're in a position where you don't want to use her ability, you don't have to. You're probably winning. If you're in a position where you're GY creature count doesn't matter(AKA, no Nighthowler, Jarad, etc..) you're probably losing, and infinite deathtouchers can be quite good at stabilizing, and getting you back from behind, and will just sit there waiting for the Bestow Topdeck to look at closing out the game. The tech against other GY decks, and whatnot however, is just gravy, but pretty sweet gravy. Against other reanimator decks, I'm looking to Scooze in my SB, not Pharika, however she'll almost certainly be a 1 or even 2 of main.
Keep Nemesis and Caryatid. Drop the 2 Deathrite Shaman - since you have Caryatid, you have the mana dorks you need. Nyx Weaver is too good not to play main.
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Well I played the list above, with +2 Nyx-weavers and -1 Nemesis and -1 Caryatid.
Went 3-2. My only losses were to MBD. I don't think I know how to sideboard against them well. Desecration Demons were the end of me. One game I had to stare down 3, and another I had 2 to face by turn 5. Not sure what I could have done there. I did outrun a packrat setup, which made me happy.
Brain Maggot will help I think, but not sure what to do. I guess the life-link from whip or trample from Nylea would have been useful.
How have you guys been handling MBD?
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Well I played the list above, with +2 Nyx-weavers and -1 Nemesis and -1 Caryatid.
Went 3-2. My only losses were to MBD. I don't think I know how to sideboard against them well. Desecration Demons were the end of me. One game I had to stare down 3, and another I had 2 to face by turn 5. Not sure what I could have done there. I did outrun a packrat setup, which made me happy.
Brain Maggot will help I think, but not sure what to do. I guess the life-link from whip or trample from Nylea would have been useful.
How have you guys been handling MBD?
I hate to say this because it's such a cop-out, but it really is a luck-based matchup. You have plenty of answers to things Monoblack does, but it's all dependent on getting them the exact moment that it matters. The Golgari Charm for the T2 Pack Rat, the Ultimate Price for the Desecration Demon, another Charm for their Underworld Connections, Thoughtseize away Garys or whatever else, etc.
Meanwhile, Monoblack can literally do anything they want and have a better than half chance of winning, due to the consistency and redundancy of the deck.
If you find you're losing to Desecration Demon specifically, the only real advice I can give is more removal in the side, and racing them as hard as possible
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Yeah, I believe this is how it would go. You're saying, "sure, get your creature back from the graveyard" but since it is no longer in the graveyard, there is nothing to take back.
It's similar to if you had Rest in Peace up. No need to pay 3 since that creature gets exiled since it hits the graveyard first.
It's different than with Rest in Peace because RIP acts as a replacement effect and the creature never actually "dies"
But yes, you can exile the create and choose not to pay the life with Athreos.
Plus, I like that you have additional reach versus stuff like Archangel of Thune and Desecration Demon. (And it straight up blocks a Nightveil Specter, no problem.)
I like your deck, but what do you think of cutting one Lotleth Troll for a fourth Satyr Wayfinder? Helps your "dredge" a little more and helps you find your lands that you really need. Also, I really think that Deathrite Shaman should be in the main deck, maybe for a couple Shadowborn Demons so that you can put those in the sideboard. I mean, yes a 5/6 flier is really good even against control, but Deathrite Shaman is so good in this deck. And with the 2 Deathrite Shamans, I think you could go back down to 20 lands to get your creature count back up to 30, which I think is where this deck wants to be in every game.
This is the deck I've been testing online:
4 Nemesis of Mortals
2 Shadowborn Demon
2 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
3 Herald of Torment
4 Nighthowler
3 Lotleth Troll
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Commune with the Gods
Lands - 20
4 Overgrown Tomb
8 Forest
8 Swamp
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Shadowborn Demon
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Scavenging Ooze
In games against Rw Burn and Green decks (they play Scavenging Ooze) I side out my graveyard "counters" Nighthowler and Nemesis of Mortals and usually one each of Herald of Torment and Lotleth Troll for Shadowborn Demons, Polukranos, World Eater, Whip of Erebos and Scavenging Ooze and I've been having great results with that strategy. I've honestly been thinking about removing the graveyard "counters" and switching the deck up a little bit to use the graveyard as more of a resource for cards like Deathrite Shaman, Whip of Erebos, and Scavenging Ooze. If the deck goes more that route, I could see Pharika, God of Affliction and Nyx Weaver being very good. If I do go that route, I will probably go up to 4 Whip of Erebos as it would be more of a cornerstone of the deck, and there is a lot of enchantment removal running around right now. As a result of wanting to draw Whip of Erebos every game, I would probably fit in some number of Kruphix's Insight (maybe a 3/3/2 count?) into the deck. As well, that would allow me to play stuff like Underworld Connections and Bow of Nylea out of my sideboard. Not sure if Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord would still be good in there though (probably still good). Anyway, just some food for thought, I really think that Kruphix's Insight is a potential superstar card (really weird that it isn't more Pharika flavored honestly). Other cards that I will be testing are Brain Maggot (I really like this one in theory), Doomwake Giant, Bassara Tower Archer, Eidolon of Blossoms, Font of Fertility, and Strength from the Fallen. Lastly, I really think Mana Confluence is going to help this deck so much, and I'm not really big on playing tapped lands (Temple of Malady).
As well, you will notice that the only non-permanent spells in my deck are Grisly Salvage and Commune with the Gods and this is simply because I was often either not casting the spells that I had because I had better things to do and/or "dredging" them away. Between these two spells, we have great tutors/card drawers and I want to count on them as much as possible to create resources for me.
Biggest thing that I like about Nemesis of Mortals is that it allows you to often cast two spells on turn 3/4, which is really important for getting out in front of control. I often find myself casting a mana dork turn 1/2, casting a "dredger" turn 2/3, then casting another "dredger" and following that up with a Nemesis of Mortals on turn 3/4, which is a very powerful start to a game.
Anyway, to wrap this up, I really think that GB "Gravy" decks have a lot potential coming soon, and that you can play one of two different styles; either using the graveyard for "Tarmogoyf" style cards or using it as a resource for card advantage. Let me know what you think.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
How has this worked out for you? I have an FNM tomorrow and started testing this today, but have already run into problems. For one, it slows the deck down considerably, and it’s not as if the deck were Aggro to start with! 3 out of 5 games I went up against last week with my BG deck were against some sort of Burn or Aggro/Burn variant, using cards like Madcap Skills, and lots of little creatures. I, however, couldn’t throw out enough creatures to block them all. Any time I didn’t block a creature I took 4 or 5 damage since they’d hit me with a Titan’s Strength.
In fact, after testing your build awhile, I’ve decided to add in some Nylea’s Disciples to help offset any lifeloss. I’m also feeling the lack of Loltrolls and Caryatids, so I might stick one of each back in.
As for changing the name of the deck, go [deck = whatever] with no spaces.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
If your local meta is that fast, then you need the Caryatids to replace the Deathrite Shaman. Also, put in 2 Courser of Kruphix in place of the Pyrewild Shaman and Xenagos. Then, I would replace the scry lands with more basic lands. This should help speed you up, curve out better, and block until you can build an insurmountable board state.
The Ghor-clan Rampagers are primarily to be Bloodrushed onto a Nighthowler'd creature, but I often hard cast them because they make good Nighthowler targets themselves.
Hope that helps.
My question to players of this deck are
1). How do you guys deal with throwing away key cards into the graveyard? I feel like there might be a chance you might throw away key sideboard cards. That would suck.
2). Is this deck difficult to pilot?
3). What are the bad matchups for this deck?
1) It is nice to know we won't be drawing it. In a game where you don't mill it, you will have no idea if you do or don't draw it. I find the certainty of it appealing. Also, milling has only the slightest effect on drawing a specific card, and only if you understand how card counting works.
2) On a scale of 1 to 5, 5 being legacy storm, and 1 being modern hexproof, I would rate it like so: Combat math 1, setup 3, choosing removal targets 2, sideboarding 3, playing effeiciently 4. So overall I would say no.
3. Depends who you ask. Mono blue devotion and red based aggro or burn seem to be the most complained about.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
It definitely happens, but its not as backbreaking as you think. In general youre either growing your howlers, finding whip targets, or feeding drs. Charm and Thoughtseize are binned sometimes, thats why you run multiples. You want them in your opening hand and then youre ok not drawing them for the rest of the game... Either way unlike classic dredge you *are* drawing each turn, so you might see more.
There are definitely some crucial decision trees, but this is also a deck with an "oops, i win" feel. Personally ive always felt close to winning even if i didnt, you're definitely bringing the game to your opponent. Plus you're abusing DRS, thats always fun. Theres a lot of combat phase shenanigans happening, too.
Fast burn, u devotion and anything running Scooze or Kiora.
Modern
Mono-U Tron
Zombie Loam
Infect
Legacy
Delver
TES
Kruphix's Insight is interesting, but I think we would need to run a lot more Enchantment creatures and be more of a Eidolon of Blossoms deck. I think this card will have its biggest impact post-Ravnica. Grisly Salvage is just better, right?
Pharika, God of Affliction has been discussed previously I know, but I think thorough testing should be done to see if she fits or not, even if she's just a SB card.
Nyx Weaver is the card Im most interested about. It seems really good, its just what do we take out for it? Its possible that it doesn't belong because everything else is better, but the Reach against Mono U should make it a SB card at least.
Brain Maggot will be in my SB for sure, replacing thoughtseize. It may be that the crappy part of the card (where the player gets the card back) might not be worth it in the matchups I want it in, but having another body for a nighthowler is nice.
Master of the Feast is a card my buddy has been raving about, taking the place of Nemesis. His argument is that most of the time we're casting Nemesis for 3 or 4 anyway, so Master's evasion just makes him better. I will be testing him, but its possible he may be right or just way wrong. Or maybe it nudges something else out of the list.
Another thing I wanted to ask was what the correct manabase will be? Is Mana Confluence an auto 4 of? 2 of? And do we want a tap land in Temple of Malady? is that a 2 of? None of?
RGWNaya MidrangeWGR
RGR/G MonstersGR
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Nyx Weaver
3 Herald of Torment
4 Nemesis of Mortals
4 Nighthowler
2 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
2 Shadowborn Demon
4 Grisly Salvage
3 Commune with the Gods
2 Ultimate Price
7 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple of Malady
3 Mistcutter Hydra
4 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Shadowborn Demon
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Scavenging Ooze
It's very standard, but I don't want to go too crazy initially with deck changes. Lotleth Troll, while I still think is a good card, is gone for Nyx Weaver. I feel that we don't want the full number of Temples because of how important it is our lands CIPT, but the scry is very useful. I'd aim for three at the most, I'm running two b/c that's all I have currently. I really don't like Mana Confluence, Pharika, or much else. Brain Maggot I'd like to fit in, but there's no room anywhere.
1. Sylvan Caryatid - People will argue the most with me here, but I hate this card in the list. I absolutely do not want a mana producer I cannot bestow on, and attack with. if I can't turn it sideways to deal damage, keep it out.
2. Lotleth Troll is incredible. Though I may someday consider 3, I'm very happy at 4 right now, as it closes games stupid quickly with Trample, and is very hard to remove. I swung with a like 9/8 trample troll on T4 against R/G monsters. His T4 Was Xenagos, and my T5 killed him when I cast Salvage EOT T4, and then literally just pitched my hand and plowed though the toughness of all his blockers. It was gross. Against Control, it's Sphere or bust, and it's great at killing Elspeth. Even against Mono B, it's VERY hard for them to kill, and races everything. Against just about anything else, it's worst case, it a blocker that blocks for DAYS.
3. I like Herald, it serve a purpose, but I have less need for it with Trolls and Trample, I like 2. Maybe 3. 4 was Way too many. There's also no direct Synergy in a synergy based deck.
4. Whip of Erebos - Why is anyone moving anywhere away from this card other than in on it? It's so good, gives so much staying power, and we can find it with serious consistency as a 2 of with Commune.
5. Jaraad, I'm at 2, I want 3. Card is so good. It's another "Nighthowler" type effect, it recurs in the late game, and can close a game the turn it comes down if it happens to go late. Having this guy and a whip in play makes you feel like you're cheating. I think the deck goes late more than people wanna say, but our cards get better in the late game, and we go over the top of EVERYTHING. I think we should put less focus on being super aggressive and just being consistent. What's with these 19/20 land lists? You're just asking for consistent mulligans. I'm thinking 21, possibly 22.
6. Nyx Weaver - This card will be amazing. The stats line up with what we would like from an early creature, blocks the obnoxious Specter for days, and the get a card from the grave ability is so good. Soooo good. Anything you've milled(AKA half your deck by the time you're looking to use it). It's practically a hard tutor for a 1 of answer, or a game closer, at instant speed. Much good.
7. Brain Maggot - Will also be very good, I will have some MB, some SB, but I doubt I'll play less than 4 in the 75.
8. Pharika - I think she's good, seriously. Nobody is forcing you to user her ability, she's safe to Bestow on, and is a big efficient Beater. She also bricks their ground troops, trumps re-animator strategies, and gives you death-touching bestow targets. I like her.
9. Kruphix's Insight, not terribly exciting. Would need to build around it to support it.
I really like some of the cards we're getting though, and will be sticking with this deck for awhile.
I'm working on similar deck and Weaver has been performing better than I expected. He generates value during my upkeep, blocks all the little dorks, and then gets back my best card. Very strong. I'm running a mostly enchantment creature variant with 2 Extinguish All Hope.
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Herald of Torment
4 Nyx Weaver
3 Pharika, God of Affliction
3 Nighthowler
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Extinguish All Hope
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Golgari Guildgate
7 Forest
7 Swamp
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
I completely agree with you here. I cut the Caryatids a while back and, while it makes blocking against the hyper-aggro decks a little tougher, it really helps the deck produce more threats. Having a single Caryatid on board with a Nighthowler in hand is just plain annoying. I wanna beat people down.
I agree that Lotleth troll is a house. I can't go completely in on it being that great against Mono-blue. In fact, when I used to run Lotleth Trolls, I would side them out for Skylashers or Mistcutters. I think people unaccustomed to Standard Dredge underestimate Lotleth and how Trample can just..end games.
I replaced my Trolls with Ghor-Clan Rampagers since I'm on the Jund build, but if I went back to strictly GB I would have no less than 3 in my main board.
Echoes my thoughts here.
I can't speak for others, but for me the main desirable attribute for Whip is the lifelink more than the reanimate ability. Don't get me wrong, the card is great, but I think Dredge benefits more from an insurmountable board state supported by a creature-heavy graveyard, than bringing back creatures from the graveyard itself.
With that, Whip of Erebos is more a support card for our deck than it is a main strategy (wheras Junk Reanimator relies on Whip/Obzedat's Aid). I side in Whip against aggro for the lifelink, and usually bring 1 in against Esper for some late-round reanimation.
Jarad is great, but since we can bring him back from the graveyard on our own, we can almost always pitch him after 'dredging'. And running more than 2 feels like it would lead to those awkward draws of having one in hand, one on the board, and one in the graveyard.
As for land counts, I think 20 is as greedy as we can get. With mana-dorks, Grisly Salvage, and Satyr Wayfinders, you can usually hit your 3rd land drop consistently enough to start making bombs. Going 21-22 lands is fair but it means you sacrifice some power for consistency - hard line to walk but worth testing.
Nyx Weaver is just what this deck needs. It has a built-in enabler for our GY strategy, as well as replaces itself with - get this - any card of our choice from our GY.
Could we seriously ask for more? Maindecking 2 this weekend at the SCG Open in Cincy, may want more...
In my opinion, a strict upgrade to Thoughtseize in our sideboard.
I'm only barely sold on Pharika as a sideboard option for the mirror/reanimator match up, maybe Esper too - but even that is a stretch. She's only a beater with a hefty 7 GB devotion requirement which our deck isn't exactly flooding the board with tons of permanents (more like 2-3 strong ones). I doubt Pharika is online as a creature enough to make her worthy of a Nighthowler target, since as soon as she is offline the Nighthowler falls off. (Then using her ability makes that Nighthowler smaller). I discussed this pages back, and I think Pharika is counter-productive to our strategy and after testing, I still feel the same way.
It's not that the God is useless, it's that I can't fathom a real use for her that we can't get elsewhere for better value.
For those running heavy on Brain Maggot, Herald of Torment, and mainboard Whip of Erebos, this card is actually very very good and a strict upgrade to Commune. Also, I assume the Junk Reanimator decks will be running as many of these as they can.
My deck doesn't run enough enchantments to warrant playing this, however.
I share the excitement for what JOU brings this deck, and while I still believe Esper and Mono-black will continue to be the best decks in Standard, Dredge is a very strong strategy that can at any time of a game simply put an end to things.
Good luck to all in your testing and playing and I will post my results from the SCG Open this weekend on Monday/Tuesday.
Here is my list (so far) for this weekend:
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Nighthowler
2 Nyx Weaver
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
2 Shadowborn Demon
4 Nemesis of Mortals
4 Commune With the Gods
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Flesh // Blood
Lands: 20
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Grounds
2 Blood Crypt
2 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Abandon
4 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Brain Maggot
2 Witchstalker
2 Golgari Charm
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Skylasher
1 Rot Farm Skeleton
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Shadowborn Demon
1 Sire of Insanity
On Lol Troll, I was talking about Mono Black. Against Mono U, yeah, probably a good cut for either of the Pro G dudes.
On the Whip, yeah, the lifelink is the biggest thing by far, but the ability to whip back in the later game is still quite good against any game going longer than 6 or 7 turns
I feel like people almost treat Pharika as a card where they NEED to use her ability, and you don't. Like it's mostly just going to be another hard to deal with, constantly active, fetchable off commune/insight, beatstick. The ability won't be something you're ALWAYS interested in, kind of like whipping a creature back, but it gives you something to do to fill in those awkward spots where maybe you're out of gas, or just don't have a good target for the Nighthowler in your hand, and will be pretty awesome against control lists, always having at least a few points of pressure on your opppo. Point is, if you're in a position where you don't want to use her ability, you don't have to. You're probably winning. If you're in a position where you're GY creature count doesn't matter(AKA, no Nighthowler, Jarad, etc..) you're probably losing, and infinite deathtouchers can be quite good at stabilizing, and getting you back from behind, and will just sit there waiting for the Bestow Topdeck to look at closing out the game. The tech against other GY decks, and whatnot however, is just gravy, but pretty sweet gravy. Against other reanimator decks, I'm looking to Scooze in my SB, not Pharika, however she'll almost certainly be a 1 or even 2 of main.
4x Lotleth Troll
3x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Elvish Mystics
2x Deathrite Shaman
4x Nemesis of Mortals
2x Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
4x Nighthowler
3x Herald of Torment
2x Shadowborne Demon
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Grisly Salvage
3x Commune with the Gods
Spells
2x Ultimate Price
Land
8x Forest
7x Swamp
4x Overgrown TOmb
1x Temple of Malady
3x Thoughtseize
1x Brain Maggot (only have 1 atm)
1x Whip of Erebos
2x Lifebane Zombie
1x Shadowborne Demon
3x Golgari Charm
2x Mistcutter Hydra
1x Pithing Needle
My current thoughts are to drop the Nemesis of mortals and sylvan caryatid back by 1 each. Thoughts?
Went 3-2. My only losses were to MBD. I don't think I know how to sideboard against them well. Desecration Demons were the end of me. One game I had to stare down 3, and another I had 2 to face by turn 5. Not sure what I could have done there. I did outrun a packrat setup, which made me happy.
Brain Maggot will help I think, but not sure what to do. I guess the life-link from whip or trample from Nylea would have been useful.
How have you guys been handling MBD?
I hate to say this because it's such a cop-out, but it really is a luck-based matchup. You have plenty of answers to things Monoblack does, but it's all dependent on getting them the exact moment that it matters. The Golgari Charm for the T2 Pack Rat, the Ultimate Price for the Desecration Demon, another Charm for their Underworld Connections, Thoughtseize away Garys or whatever else, etc.
Meanwhile, Monoblack can literally do anything they want and have a better than half chance of winning, due to the consistency and redundancy of the deck.
If you find you're losing to Desecration Demon specifically, the only real advice I can give is more removal in the side, and racing them as hard as possible