Mythic Midrange (WBR)

  • #101
    ill adjust how I value cards when TSing and see how that works.


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  • #102
    Quote from LewisCBR
    I might be wrong, but I always thought a stable board was exactly when you did want to play Chandra. I agree she has very little immediate impact in the early game, but whoa boy do the scales tip the longer she is out drawing you free cards to where you dominate the mid/late game?


    I took him to mean that he was attempting to stabilize the board at the time he'd normally play Chandra. But yeah, once stable, Chandra is an almost guaranteed game-ender.
  • #103
    kensanity, welcome back Wink

    We may be to a place where Doom Blade is out classed. Chained, Dreadbore, Mortars, and 4x Magma Jet/2-3x Helix for instant speed removal are often enough game 1. The only real outlier being Obzedat that I can think of which Doom Blade can't touch anyway. Perhaps a Hero's Demise or two somewhere in the 75 instead?

    I ran through a bunch of testing yesterday with Anger in the SB, 3x Mortars and Sin Collector main. While it was certainly nice to not blow up my Reckoner occasionally and to have a more consistent board presence on turn 3-4, the deck felt diluted comparatively. Sin Collector is an awesome card, but he is sideboard material for me. Anger SB/Main will be a meta call.

    The 4-drop slot is still something I have no great answer for. Ember Swallower is actually pretty solid. I don't get much use out of his Monstrous, but 5 toughness on a 4-drop that dodges Mortars and swings pretty hard is quite compelling. He blocks Baron which is nice.

    Haunted Plate Mail is only OK. Is it good enough to play multiple copies? It's cool that you can trigger them off each other and activate 2 Plate Mails at once, but I often can play him on turn 4-5, then not have enough mana to attach him on turns 5-7 because I want to be using that mana to play more threats. Whip costs the same to cast/activate, and provides an ongoing bonus of lifelink.

    Magma Jet is the only way to consistently hit your mana base and filter for the threats you need. It's relevant in almost all matchups, even if you are just nuking them to the face. I would maybe consider dropping from down to 3 copies if I wasn't reliably killing creatures... but so far I like having 4.

    I played with Legion's Initiative back in the day, but they were dropped when I went to Lifebane/Demon setups. It warrants more testing now with a Red/White creature base. 4/4 Boros Reckoners that don't die to Anger and Blood Barons that laugh at Mortars seem awesome Grin

    Edit: Here is the deck I am hoping to test either tonight or tomorrow. Great discussion today.

    9/18 WBRMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Land (24)
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Godless Shrine
    6x Mountain
    4x Sacred Foundry
    4x Temple of Silence
    2x Temple of Triumph

    Creature (13)
    4x Boros Reckoner
    2x Ember Swallower
    3x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
    3x Stormbreath Dragon
    1x Aurelia, the Warleader

    Instant (6)
    4x Magma Jet
    2x Warleader's Helix

    Sorcery (12)
    2x Dreadbore
    2x Mizzium Mortars
    3x Anger of the Gods
    2x Rakdos's Return
    3x Thoughtseize

    Enchantment (4)
    2x Legion's Initiative
    2x Whip of Erebos

    Artifact (2)
    2x Rakdos Keyrune



    Still working on the SB for this version
    Last edited by eldub: 9/18/2013 4:34:48 PM
  • #104
    Quote from Valdarith
    I took him to mean that he was attempting to stabilize the board at the time he'd normally play Chandra. But yeah, once stable, Chandra is an almost guaranteed game-ender.


    This is precisely what I meant.
  • #105

    EDIT

    LI would not bring them back into play after the whip. So never mind.


    Why would LI not bring them back. It should work the same way as obzedat and Aetherling do with the whip shouldn't it
  • #106
    I'm not going through all the pages of this thread just yet, but after playing the previous season with Jund, I think WBR is a natural choice for me. The biggest selling point is definitely lifegain. Jund needed lifegain, lots of lifegain, just to offset the lifeloss from our own draw spells. Now that Thragtusk and Huntmaster are gone, Obzedat, Blood Baron and Warleader's Helix are pretty much the only viable lifegain spells.

    I don't really know what I'm trying arrive at here, prolly just saying that I'm feeling the WBR combination for post-rotation standard metagame, and I'l prolly build a deck if I can amass the cards for it.
  • #107
    Quote from eldub
    kensanity, welcome back Wink

    We may be to a place where Doom Blade is out classed. Chained, Dreadbore, Mortars, and 4x Magma Jet/2-3x Helix for instant speed removal are often enough game 1. The only real outlier being Obzedat that I can think of which Doom Blade can't touch anyway. Perhaps a Hero's Demise or two somewhere in the 75 instead?

    I ran through a bunch of testing yesterday with Anger in the SB, 3x Mortars and Sin Collector main. While it was certainly nice to not blow up my Reckoner occasionally and to have a more consistent board presence on turn 3-4, the deck felt diluted comparatively. Sin Collector is an awesome card, but he is sideboard material for me. Anger SB/Main will be a meta call.

    The 4-drop slot is still something I have no great answer for. Ember Swallower is actually pretty solid. I don't get much use out of his Monstrous, but 5 toughness on a 4-drop that dodges Mortars and swings pretty hard is quite compelling. He blocks Baron which is nice.

    Haunted Plate Mail is only OK. Is it good enough to play multiple copies? It's cool that you can trigger them off each other and activate 2 Plate Mails at once, but I often can play him on turn 4-5, then not have enough mana to attach him on turns 5-7 because I want to be using that mana to play more threats. Whip costs the same to cast/activate, and provides an ongoing bonus of lifelink.

    Magma Jet is the only way to consistently hit your mana base and filter for the threats you need. It's relevant in almost all matchups, even if you are just nuking them to the face. I would maybe consider dropping from down to 3 copies if I wasn't reliably killing creatures... but so far I like having 4.

    I played with Legion's Initiative back in the day, but they were dropped when I went to Lifebane/Demon setups. It warrants more testing now with a Red/White creature base. 4/4 Boros Reckoners that don't die to Anger and Blood Barons that laugh at Mortars seem awesome Grin

    Edit: Here is the deck I am hoping to test either tonight or tomorrow. Great discussion today.

    9/18 WBRMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Land (24)
    4x Blood Crypt
    4x Godless Shrine
    6x Mountain
    4x Sacred Foundry
    4x Temple of Silence
    2x Temple of Triumph

    Creature (13)
    4x Boros Reckoner
    2x Ember Swallower
    3x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
    3x Stormbreath Dragon
    1x Aurelia, the Warleader

    Instant (6)
    4x Magma Jet
    2x Warleader's Helix

    Sorcery (12)
    2x Dreadbore
    2x Mizzium Mortars
    3x Anger of the Gods
    2x Rakdos's Return
    3x Thoughtseize

    Enchantment (4)
    2x Legion's Initiative
    2x Whip of Erebos

    Artifact (2)
    2x Rakdos Keyrune



    Still working on the SB for this version


    I haven't been gone. I just haven't posted because I haven't playtestee in depth till the entire set was spoiled and because a lot of my conclusions others have reached as well.

    Ember swallower is a solid card and I think its also one that gives our deck problems if we have to face it. Going to look into testing the whip as I have yet to do so.
  • #108
    Quote from Tantaburs
    Why would LI not bring them back. It should work the same way as obzedat and Aetherling do with the whip shouldn't it


    I read whip wrong, it should work now that I am reading it again. I was thinking Whip would be a replacement effect in which Initiative would no longer recognize what it exiled. But it is only a replacement effect if the creature goes anywhere else other than exile... if I am understanding this correctly now.
  • #109
    Just play tested it, and I'll defenately play with those kind of colors for the upcoming standard, I just atked with Underworld ceberus and aurelia 18 damage ouch!
    If you consider the whip in this deck you would probably want to test boros charm for infinite lifes combo with the reckoner :p
  • #110
    Here is a Whip list that I have been testing for the day. I kind of like it. However, my main list on the primer still stands as my current iteration. I just wanted to share this one with you guys since it has been pretty successful so far.

    Kamahl, the Fallen's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures (9)
    4 Boros Reckoner
    2 Sin Collector
    2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
    1 Stormbreath Dragon

    Legendary Creatures (5)
    2 Aurelia, the Warleader
    3 Obzedat, Ghost Council

    Enchantments (6)
    3 Chained to the Rocks
    3 Whip of Erebos

    Instants (5)
    3 Magma Jet
    2 Warleader's Helix

    Sorceries (10)
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Dreadbore
    1 Read the Bones
    2 Rakdos's Return
    2 Wild Guess

    Lands (25)
    4 Godless Shrine
    4 Blood Crypt
    4 Sacred Foundry
    3 Temple of Silence
    3 Temple of Triumph
    1 Rakdos Guildgate
    2 Mountain
    1 Swamp
    1 Plains
    2 Mutavault

  • #111
    whip almost certainly makes obzedat a necessity. I removed 2 demons from my list and added 2 whips and i really did enjoy having it. however, i didn't feel as if the whip was groundbreakking unless i already had boros reckoner out. this may push me towards playing obzedat as a 2 of but i'm pretty happy with 4 baron, 2 dragon and 1 aurelia (maybe remove 2 baron for 2 obzedat?)

    in the control matchup, chandra pyromaster did so much work. even though we have scry, in those matchups we need card draw to keep up with opponents. maybe a combination of chandra and underworld connections is enough?

    In my very limited testing, i like desecration demon quite a bit, although in my list i felt as my curve was very much on the high end. unsure at this point. an option is maybe cutting the plethora of 4 drops and using somethign like mindsparker/fiendslayer/sin collector alongside boros reckoner.

    i just feel that in a standard full of fatties, a 6/6 flyer that is black is not too shabby.

    also, i'm beginning to like duress better than sin collector. I want to hit enchantments/artifacts/planeswalkers and am not too concerned about the 2/1 body.
  • #112
    I read whip wrong, it should work now that I am reading it again. I was thinking Whip would be a replacement effect in which Initiative would no longer recognize what it exiled. But it is only a replacement effect if the creature goes anywhere else other than exile... if I am understanding this correctly now.

    This is correct. As long as the creature goes where the whip says it has to go (exile), then the whip doesn't care how it got there.
  • #113
    Thoughts about Gerry's list from SCG article? I don't think I can post list here, but his card choices are reckoners, demons, obzedats, read the bones, anger of the gods, whip, elspeth and usual removal+discard.
  • #114
    Quote from Smooth Criminal
    Thoughts about Gerry's list from SCG article? I don't think I can post list here, but his card choices are reckoners, demons, obzedats, read the bones, anger of the gods, whip, elspeth and usual removal+discard.


    I like Glare of Heresy in the sideboard, could be an interesting way to deal with several of the tools in use by U/W/x.

    The decision to not play main deck Thoughtseize is an interesting one, but if he wanted to play 4x Read the Bones, he had no other choice. I don't think the deck can support more than 4 cards that eat 2 life.

    The biggest exclusion seems to be Magma Jet, as he is trying to smooth out his draws with Read the Bones instead. It's an interesting choice and one I'm definitely willing to test.
  • #115
    His list is remarkably greedy.

    My main concern is that he is paying all of this life to just land Obzedat and hope to recover it back, which is a pretty tall glass to fill on the back off a single Whip. At least with things like Thoughtseize and the life loss, you can proactively try to protect yourself for the price of 2 life. The lack of Blood Baron is disturbing with only a single whip to try and pull him out of it. I understand that Anger of the Gods is suppose to do the work against red aggro decks, but red aggro decks can also realistically just burn you out after an AotG.
    Last edited by Kamahl, the Fallen: 9/19/2013 9:10:30 AM
  • #116
    Quote from Smooth Criminal
    Thoughts about Gerry's list from SCG article? I don't think I can post list here, but his card choices are reckoners, demons, obzedats, read the bones, anger of the gods, whip, elspeth and usual removal+discard.


    Why are you unable to post the list here? It would be nice to know what all the current discussion is about.
  • #117
    I fin that a lot of SCG sponsored lists are more FNM-fun rather than competitive. Due to them being able to sell more singles to the larger FNM crowd rather than the smaller competitive crowd.
    "Battlecruiser Operational"

    Disclaimer:I discuss cards based on my own experiences with MTG. Sometimes I am wrong, other times I am right. I always try to give legitimate reasons to my dislike of cards. Please do so yourself.

    Current Standard Deck:
    BWB BW Control/Midrange

    Modern Deck:
    BBBMono-Black 8-Rack

    Current EDH Decks:
    BWGTeneb's Harvest
    BGRProssh's Dragons
    UBGDamia's Control
  • #118
  • #119
    sin collector is remarkably weak in most matchs an at best a sb card vs control. even then duress still does a better job. Demon continues to put his weight. vs control he is counter bait for the more important finishers. I think 3 blood barons is is correct with one In the side. this next week I will look into trying chandra out in the main deck.


    Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
  • #120


    Hmm that does look incredibly greedy. Though I guess its a choice between drawing cards and losing life or disrupting your opponents hand.
    Looks like the option to draw outweighed the hand disruption.
    Also the lack of Blood Baron is really surprising considering how powerful that card is.
  • #121
    His list is remarkably greedy.

    My main concern is that he is paying all of this life to just land Obzedat and hope to recover it back, which is a pretty tall glass to fill on the back off a single Whip. At least with things like Thoughtseize and the life loss, you can proactively try to protect yourself for the price of 2 life. The lack of Blood Baron is disturbing with only a single whip to try and pull him out of it. I understand that Anger of the Gods is suppose to do the work against red aggro decks, but red aggro decks can also realistically just burn you out after an AotG.

    I like most his choices.
    - AotG is basically reckoners 5-8 against aggro. They will always be a stabilizing play.
    - read the bones is the spell I wanted the most in previous rotation. Deck has cards for every situation, but no good card selection, draw 2 lose 2 dug not deep enough and looting was card disadvantage.
    - whip + obzedat is so good it's a must play.

    I don't like chained to the rocks. You almost never will have a land to turn 1 it and after that you might as well play 2 cmc removal without fear of enchantment removal.

    Baron is very good against GW or WW deck and mediocre against other ones. I think Helix allows you to get around not playing full 4, but some number should definitely be in 75.
  • #122
    Can anyone explain why Magma Jet is so compelling? What am I missing. It is good in matches where we already have very strong game such as mono red. Against G/W aggro it doesn't kill anything efficiently (ie. kills one-drops for two mana). Against midrange I guess is can be used with a mortars to take out an X/6 (or again, inefficiently, a mana dork) and against control it is completely useless. I am not advocating that it should be completely cut, a 2 of has tested quite nicely, but I think that an auto 4 of is a bit crazy. Magma Jet was great back in the day, but creatures have grown much larger and more effecient since then and only scrying 2 is not worth it. Remember that in competitive Magic there are no sacred cows.

    Boros Reckoner is another creature that hasn't been testing as well as in the past. It is so much harder to two for one with him than it used to. Again he's really good against the fast aggro decks, but exceedingly mediocre against midrange (now with the 3 toughness Thragtusk out of the format). Against these decks it acts as a fragile removal spell, and not nearly the roadblock he used to be. Against control, Boros Reckoner doesn't put much of a clock out and, now that we have lost Blasphemous Act to really abuse the Reckoner, I think his prime has waned. In testing he works better as a 3 of, leaving room for more utility in my more powerful creatures and removal spells (also allows me to not feel so bad about main decking Anger of the Gods). What are your guys' thoughts on this and also my rant on Rakdos Keyrune before?

    Edit:
    Quote from Smooth Criminal
    I don't like chained to the rocks. You almost never will have a land to turn 1 it and after that you might as well play 2 cmc removal without fear of enchantment removal.

    Chained to the Rocks lets you play removal turn 2 without taking pain to a shockland. It also lets you play multiple removal spells in a turn while still playing scry lands/putting shocklands into play tapped. It's worth it. If they are diluting their deck by siding in enchant hate for your 2-3 Chain to the Rocks, I feel they are evaluating threats incorrectly. If enchantment hate is maindeck then we can revisit this. Until then I strongly suggest at least play-testing this if you play 10+ Mountains.
    Last edited by magik_freak: 9/19/2013 5:18:46 PM
  • #123
    Magma jet is cool because it is early removal and smooths out your draws. I can see replacing them with read the bones however I think having plays with 2 mana are very important . read the bones I feel is very slow . however, we can't ask for a better draw spell.

    We desperately need lifegain. Perhaps tweaking the mana base to RWb? This way we can play fiends layer with reckoner?

    I'm of the belief that the deck really needs a way to bridge us into hitting our 3 and 4 cmc drops.

    Also whip and obzedat is really powerful . however it forces the deck into making awkward mana base decisions.

    I personally wouldn't play less than four reckoner. Does so much work in aggressive match ups
  • #124
    Quote from magik_freak
    Can anyone explain why Magma Jet is so compelling? What am I missing. It is good in matches where we already have very strong game such as mono red. Against G/W aggro it doesn't kill anything efficiently (ie. kills one-drops for two mana). Against midrange I guess is can be used with a mortars to take out an X/6 (or again, inefficiently, a mana dork) and against control it is completely useless. I am not advocating that it should be completely cut, a 2 of has tested quite nicely, but I think that an auto 4 of is a bit crazy. Magma Jet was great back in the day, but creatures have grown much larger and more effecient since then and only scrying 2 is not worth it. Remember that in competitive Magic there are no sacred cows.


    Magma Jet has been invaluable to me so far in testing. The scry 2 is very important, that along with the scry lands helps keep the deck flowing and not run out of gas. Even if you're not killing something, sometimes I think it's perfectly acceptable to just Jet someone for the scry effect if you really need to draw into something. I don't think this deck would function as well without scry effects.

    Is everyone sold on using the Whip/Obzedat plan? Seems like most people here are trying out at least 1 whip. I will probably test it out this weekend but I'm not sure what to cut for it.

    Also, I tried out 2 Descration Demon and thought they were great. I feel like this deck needs a solid 4 drop and Demon is a great choice. I didn't have a problem with the double black, probably since I'm running 2 of the Rakdos Keyrunes.
  • #125
    Quote from kensanity
    Magma jet is cool because it is early removal and smooths out your draws. I can see replacing them with read the bones however I think having plays with 2 mana are very important . read the bones I feel is very slow . however, we can't ask for a better draw spell.

    We desperately need lifegain. Perhaps tweaking the mana base to RWb? This way we can play fiends layer with reckoner?

    I'm of the belief that the deck really needs a way to bridge us into hitting our 3 and 4 cmc drops.

    Also whip and obzedat is really powerful . however it forces the deck into making awkward mana base decisions.

    I personally wouldn't play less than four reckoner. Does so much work in aggressive match ups


    I've been thinking about taking at least one reckoner out of my main deck and moving him to the board. He is a house vs aggro but lost alot of his power vs midrange with thragtusk rotating. I mean he is still basicaly a removal spell but he seems to have lost alot of his brick wall powers.


    Also, I tried out 2 Descration Demon and thought they were great. I feel like this deck needs a solid 4 drop and Demon is a great choice. I didn't have a problem with the double black, probably since I'm running 2 of the Rakdos Keyrunes.


    I am in love with Demon. Im testing a much more controling version of the deck and demon is just a house agains't midrange and aggro.
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