There is still a lot of non-basic lands in standard and a lot of decks with greedy mana bases to use them. I don't see how burning earth in a very effective mono red deck would be surprising.
Don't get me wrong I like Dega, but 3 Wear // Tear in the SB might not be enough.
There is still a lot of non-basic lands in standard and a lot of decks with greedy mana bases to use them. I don't see how burning earth in a very effective mono red deck would be surprising.
Don't get me wrong I like Dega, but 3 Wear // Tear in the SB might not be enough.
I don't think many decks will be that greedy with mana bases. I really feel as if Dega is one of the few decks that can run a greedy mana base. Additionally, boros reckoner is a huge pitstop to those decks, and with helix and bloodbaron, they'd need an amazing curve to beat you. in which case, so be it.
I rather have the diversity and power that that colors give me than to just bend towards the power of burning earth.
here's where i'm at. maybe too slow. But i'm not sold on playing sin collector as my boros reckoners 5-6 in my list.
I don't think many decks will be that greedy with mana bases. I really feel as if Dega is one of the few decks that can run a greedy mana base. Additionally, boros reckoner is a huge pitstop to those decks, and with helix and bloodbaron, they'd need an amazing curve to beat you. in which case, so be it.
I rather have the diversity and power that that colors give me than to just bend towards the power of burning earth.
There's only 1 creature in Big red typically that Boros Reckoner can block without dying, that being Ash Zealot. Everything else turns into Boros Reckoner going 1 for 1 on bigger threats, let alone they have their own Reckoners.
They also run Mizzium Mortars and seem to have no problem with Blood Baron.
Their curve is actually better than ours and don't have to deal with any tapped lands what so ever.
There's a lot of hype on Esper Control for rotation currently and many people testing Bug/Dega lists. These decks alone are more than enough reason for burning earth to see a lot of play.
big red and rdw are two very different things and pacing is very different. what exactly about big red is giving you problems?
Ive played this match on cockatrice (lul) and rarely have problems. I've never seen main deck burning earth in those lists either, but then anything can happen in a new format.
are u suggesting we just roll over and not play 3 colors because of the threat of one card?
No. I'm suggesting we need a better answer than just 3 Wear // Tear against 4 burning earth in game two. This is against a deck that doesn't have to deal with tapped lands and shocking themselves to hold off threats and are playing a lot of our threats, like Boros Reckoner and Stormbreath Dragon.
They also seem to have no problem dealing with Blood Baron and if we did get down an Underworld Cerberus, they tend to get more from it's death than we do even if they 2 or 3 for 1 it.
I'm sorry if I give off the impression that i'm whining or complaining, but I honestly just want to improve the list and not "just roll over."
No. I'm suggesting we need a better answer than just 3 Wear // Tear against 4 burning earth in game two. This is against a deck that doesn't have to deal with tapped lands and shocking themselves to hold off threats and are playing a lot of our threats, like Boros Reckoner and Stormbreath Dragon.
They also seem to have no problem dealing with Blood Baron and if we did get down an Underworld Cerberus, they tend to get more from it's death than we do even if they 2 or 3 for 1 it.
I'm sorry if I give off the impression that i'm whining or complaining, but I honestly just want to improve the list and not "just roll over."
Burning earth is much easier to deal with in big red than it is in drw. Big red is slower and plays more removal. Thus duress, thought seize, sin collector and rakdos returns all become viable. IMO, the real threat in that deck is e,her swallower.
If you can't figureoutnhow to play around a card, not sure what I can advise. While burningearthmis problematic, it is far from the end of the world. It's like saying u must play 4 pithing needles and 4 despise to deal with aetherling.... Don't dilute your deck just out of fear of one card that quite frankly doesn't win the game on its own ..
There's a new white 3 management enchantment removal spell that also lets you gain 3 life. I forget what it's called though. Destroys BE and you don't take any dmg. also pretty good against Hammer of Purhopos, seems like a decent enough sideboard card for big red.
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First off, Big Red with BE in the MB is an anomaly.
Another thing about Big Red is that half of their nonland cards are noncreature cards, Duress and Sin Collector do work here, and Thoughtseize is better here than against traditional Red decks because they are a bit slower.
Recognize the signs of a Big Red deck.
Don't keep hands you cannot play somewhat aggressively, regardless of the match.
Don't overcommit SB slots for fringe scenarios.
Also keep in mind, that not all Big Red lists run Mortars in the main, and even then, the most problematic card for Blood Baron is actually Chandra, Pyromaster.
Tinkering around with various things, I find this list to be a little amusing. I have not gotten in the testing I would like to get in with it, but it is not entirely half bad.
Trading Post has proven to be a pretty versatile 4 drop, being able to pick me up some life or throw down some blockers. It can also draw a card in a pinch, which usually means you are losing anyways. But it can also get back the Whip.
The Whip with Obzedat just seemed fun. I have not really gotten it off too many times, but it is there. The extra Lifelink is pretty cool out of nowhere, but with a bunch of Blood Baron's it seems... gimmicky. It kind of acts like a 5th Blood Baron though and with Reckoners it can just be a win when you combo out for a bunch of life.
Elspeth is still, incredibly slow. I am sure it is because I am so use to Aurelia, Thundermaw and Stormbreath being able to quickly close the game.
What I really am liking about the list, is more or less the lessons I am taking from it.
Whip can be just bonkers, and I think a more creature-centric build could profit off of it, whilst giving us access to infinite life out of Reckoner to maybe just force concession.
Elspeth is still, incredibly slow. I am sure it is because I am so use to Aurelia, Thundermaw and Stormbreath being able to quickly close the game.
I like this list and have been a fan of the whip since it was shown. Why not take out elspeth and add one more whip and one aurelia. Since Aurelia and whip combo pretty well?
Any list in here not running Chandra needs to run her. Seriously. She is ridiculous in EVERY matchup. Give her a try and you'll be amazed at how many games she wins you.
Any list in here not running Chandra needs to run her. Seriously. She is ridiculous in EVERY matchup. Give her a try and you'll be amazed at how many games she wins you.
I am not sold on aurelia. she doesn't do enough. she requires a specific board set up to be good. I understand that she can win you a game out of no where but that does not out way the number of times when she is mediocre. .
on tap lands 6 has been ok for me. this deck really needs to play its three four and five drops on curve.
chain to the rocks has been pretty average so far I have been liking two.
RR is still testing poorly. control will just counter it or I never have enough mana to make it impactful. thoughtseize does enough with sin collector out of sb.
on peak eruption. its not constructed playable. if the damage was to creatures or players then mayby.
DD has been running fine in the four drop slot and he allows for two spells to be played turn five or six if you can manage it. right now I prefer demon over whip but honestly I only gotten whip in play when it mattered a few times so my sample size is too small to judge.
The thing about Aurelia, is that even when she does not have creatures to turn sideways with, she swings for 6 and leaves a blocker behind... that is still impressive, especially when the blocker has a X/4 booty.
Chained to the Rocks is a great. I am sorry you are only finding it average. The beg selling point is really the matches where you are facing things like Desecration Demon or another big fatty that cannot be mortars, Helix or Doom Bladed away. Speaking of which, I have even cut Doom Blade for it in some lists I have been playing with and really don't entirely miss it all that much. However, I love Doom Blade anyways so it always comes back in simply because of that.
Why is RR getting countered? Sin Collector and Thoughtseize are superb at setting it up. This deck should be shredding their hand completely if you are packing these.
I agree with Peak Erruption. The only thing that would trigger it to really see play is Chained to the Rocks, and I don't even think the prevalence of that card is going to exist outside of maybe this deck and Bigrw decks if they even exist.
So what is the main point of Desecration Demon?
The Whip seems to give this guy a complete run for his money in some lists. Reckoner with Lifelink is stupid and probably should just not happen... ever. Whip with Obzedat is incredibly powerful as you are swinging your life for 7 every turn, and you can just continuously bring him back.
Whip is almost good enough to just flat out replace our 4 drops all together. The only thing preventing that from happening as far as I can tell, is the fact that it is Legendary.
What I like about Whip it it's ability to pulls us into a powerful endgame in many different variations. Aurelia with it is just nuts, even if she is alone. Slower lists can run things like Angel of Serenity or Ashen Rider for a powerful bit of inevitability and Whip also opens up options to just cheat things like this into play as well.
Whip seems like the best 4 drop this deck has had the privilege of seeing.
So if you do not use Wear/Tear out of the board, what are you doing against Enchantment stack decks or Burning Earth?
Srry i meant to say i prefer DD over whip. My fault.
control decks are running about 10 counters with more in sb with scrye they are seeing counters very frequently. that is how its getting countered. we have talked a lot about RR in the old thread if you want ill elaborate more on it if you want but ill leave it at; control plays more counters now ,we don't ramp, and it competes with turn 5 and 6 plays where I really want to be casting two spells. while it can blow some games out of the water like aurelia, however, it doesn't happen enough like that to make up for the rest of the time when its mediocre.
I can't comment with any confidence as to the whip or its playability I just haven't tired it enough. DD has been fine because with the cheap removal he doesn't get tapped as often as he did and when he does its not as bad as it used to be.
as far as enchantments most of them are still terrible. I can't reliably beat rdw when they have the nut burning earth draw and wear/tear is not improving the problem. this match seems mire dependant on anger of gods and life gain. that leaves d-sphere and unflinching courage. both can get hit by glare of heresy. glare also has applications in some control match ups and vs the mirror.
I have given some serious thought into testing legions initiative. many for the supreme verdict decks. it improves sin collect ability to fit through omen speaker, it negates wraths and can be a nice boon to creatures with etb abilities. never mind this just sounds bad.
I've read every page here, so I'm not sure why you're being so curt. Care to elaborate without being such a pissant?
The main issue with Chandra for us, as opposed to something like Big Red, is that when we are casting her, it is generally at a time of stabilization and for that, she just does not do enough.
In the later stages of the game, she is just weaker than something like Elspeth, or anything else we could be playing.
She was good when Thragtusk decks were around because she could let Blood Baron get through or start flipping over Thundermaw Hellkites off the top when plays like that mattered a lot more, however Blood Baron worries less about green with the rotation of Thragtusk. We can now just use a removal spell to get it out of our way, and we don't need to flip over Thundermaws to negate the life gain aspect.
She just does not do enough when she needs to. It if it is too early, she is probably not your best play, if it is too late, she is probably outclassed by something else.
She is good, but in this deck, not good enough. If I may say so.
Srry i meant to say i prefer DD over whip. My fault.
control decks are running about 10 counters with more in sb with scrye they are seeing counters very frequently. that is how its getting countered. we have talked a lot about RR in the old thread if you want ill elaborate more on it if you want but ill leave it at; control plays more counters now ,we don't ramp, and it competes with turn 5 and 6 plays where I really want to be casting two spells. while is can blow some games out of the water like aurelia, however it doesn't happen enough like that enough to make up for the rest of the time when its mediocre.
Hmm. I wonder if you are just on a bad streak or maybe electing the wrong targets? Idk. I really have not had an issue with them countering return.The real problem I have is grinding them into a top deck war where they just come back with a revelations, and that is simply because I am just being way too aggressive with my discard.
Is anyone else having issues like this? Maybe it is just me not having the issue out of luck.
I can't comment with any confidence as to the whip or its playability I just haven't tired it enough. DD has been fine because with the cheap removal he doesn't get tapped as often as he did and when he does its not as bad as it used to be.
Battling through a single Reckoner with a whip out is... really hard to do. A second one generally means you are exhausting resources or losing pressure and the third one usually means you are just too far behind.
That is in regards to aggro and Midrange.
For control, the whip doubles up as recursion, which is really nice with things like Obzedat.
It seems far more powerful than Demon, but then again, I have not tested this card anywhere near the level I have tested Demon out. Whip just seems to contribute well to games I should otherwise be losing.
as far as enchantments most of them are still terrible. I can't reliably beat rdw when they have the nut burning earth draw and wear/tear is not improving the problem. this match seems mire dependant on anger of gods and life gain. that leaves d-sphere and unflinching courage. both can get hit by glare of heresy. glare also has applications in some control match ups and vs the mirror.
Anger of the Gods has been far from a saving grace against red aggro decks for me.
Your points about Glare are completely valid though and will sway me to try it out for sure.
I have given some serious thought into testing legions initiative. many for the supreme verdict decks. it improves sin collect ability to fit through omen speaker, it negates wraths and can be a nice boon to creatures with etb abilities. never mind this just sounds bad.
So with that being taken into consideration, Whip and more creatures seems pretty robust with Initiative. I like Initiative, it could be pretty sweet in general, but including the Whip just seems nuts, assuming LI would put them back into play... even if it does not it could be wild.
EDIT
LI would not bring them back into play after the whip. So never mind.
The main issue with Chandra for us, as opposed to something like Big Red, is that when we are casting her, it is generally at a time of stabilization and for that, she just does not do enough.
In the later stages of the game, she is just weaker than something like Elspeth, or anything else we could be playing.
She was good when Thragtusk decks were around because she could let Blood Baron get through or start flipping over Thundermaw Hellkites off the top when plays like that mattered a lot more, however Blood Baron worries less about green with the rotation of Thragtusk. We can now just use a removal spell to get it out of our way, and we don't need to flip over Thundermaws to negate the life gain aspect.
She just does not do enough when she needs to. It if it is too early, she is probably not your best play, if it is too late, she is probably outclassed by something else.
She is good, but in this deck, not good enough. If I may say so.
I can see how that may be the case in a three-color deck like this. Would you say she is better positioned against control than, say, Elspeth? I would think this would be the case given how little pressure control decks will be putting on you in the early game, and would definitely consider running 2-3 in the sideboard for those matchups. She's just so hard for control to deal with outside of Detention Sphere or Dreadbore, and running her simply increases your threat density against them (they can't counter EVERYTHING).
If I have early TS, turn 3 or earlier, usually ill take in this order finisher, revelations., verdict, counter. its very hand dependant so its hard to stick to guidlines on what to pick. so far the control decks have, grixas and u/w, been able to have enough removal and counters to manage my threats. without enough early threats control gets to coast until turn 4. I am gona take a look at mindsparker and see what happens. if anything he will force me to redo the mana base.
Why are you not taking counters above everything else?
You take the Counter to give yourself an opening, or if you had one, take the removal to protect your guy. From there, you start dismantling their ways of winning or fueling.
Their finishers are generally slow, as well as Revelations. You can hold off on taking those until later, because they won't be using them early simply because of their cost. You have time to prepare for those things as well as advance by focusing on counter, then removal, then the draw and finishers.
Against decks like Grixis, you probably do not win game 1. But this is an example of where Whip can just overhaul the game, letting you focus on taking their counter then recurring what they remove.
I don't think Magma Jet is where you want to be in this deck. A spell that deals 2 damage is just not good enough. In aggro is smooths your draws and worst case scenario can go to the head as reach. In midrange just does not kill enough creatures to warrant inclusion.
Also I like the deck with 24 lands + 3 Rakdos Keyrune. The Keyrune fills an empty 3 drop slot, fixes our mana, can give aggro fits and skips right up to our powerful 5 drops in Baron/Obzedat/Stormbreath, which can be crucial against other midrange decks. It lifts a lot of weight for a simple mana artifact.
The main issue with Chandra for us, as opposed to something like Big Red, is that when we are casting her, it is generally at a time of stabilization and for that, she just does not do enough.
In the later stages of the game, she is just weaker than something like Elspeth, or anything else we could be playing.
She was good when Thragtusk decks were around because she could let Blood Baron get through or start flipping over Thundermaw Hellkites off the top when plays like that mattered a lot more, however Blood Baron worries less about green with the rotation of Thragtusk. We can now just use a removal spell to get it out of our way, and we don't need to flip over Thundermaws to negate the life gain aspect.
She just does not do enough when she needs to. It if it is too early, she is probably not your best play, if it is too late, she is probably outclassed by something else.
She is good, but in this deck, not good enough. If I may say so.
I might be wrong, but I always thought a stable board was exactly when you did want to play Chandra. I agree she has very little immediate impact in the early game, but whoa boy do the scales tip the longer she is out drawing you free cards to where you dominate the mid/late game?
Don't get me wrong I like Dega, but 3 Wear // Tear in the SB might not be enough.
I don't think many decks will be that greedy with mana bases. I really feel as if Dega is one of the few decks that can run a greedy mana base. Additionally, boros reckoner is a huge pitstop to those decks, and with helix and bloodbaron, they'd need an amazing curve to beat you. in which case, so be it.
I rather have the diversity and power that that colors give me than to just bend towards the power of burning earth.
here's where i'm at. maybe too slow. But i'm not sold on playing sin collector as my boros reckoners 5-6 in my list.
I'd like to fit assemble the legion, more chained to the rocks and more anti aggro cards but really don't know what i should look towards.
lifebane zombie is something i was debating as well, but i'll let the format flesh out before playing it
There's only 1 creature in Big red typically that Boros Reckoner can block without dying, that being Ash Zealot. Everything else turns into Boros Reckoner going 1 for 1 on bigger threats, let alone they have their own Reckoners.
They also run Mizzium Mortars and seem to have no problem with Blood Baron.
Their curve is actually better than ours and don't have to deal with any tapped lands what so ever.
There's a lot of hype on Esper Control for rotation currently and many people testing Bug/Dega lists. These decks alone are more than enough reason for burning earth to see a lot of play.
Ive played this match on cockatrice (lul) and rarely have problems. I've never seen main deck burning earth in those lists either, but then anything can happen in a new format.
are u suggesting we just roll over and not play 3 colors because of the threat of one card?
They also seem to have no problem dealing with Blood Baron and if we did get down an Underworld Cerberus, they tend to get more from it's death than we do even if they 2 or 3 for 1 it.
I'm sorry if I give off the impression that i'm whining or complaining, but I honestly just want to improve the list and not "just roll over."
Burning earth is much easier to deal with in big red than it is in drw. Big red is slower and plays more removal. Thus duress, thought seize, sin collector and rakdos returns all become viable. IMO, the real threat in that deck is e,her swallower.
If you can't figureoutnhow to play around a card, not sure what I can advise. While burningearthmis problematic, it is far from the end of the world. It's like saying u must play 4 pithing needles and 4 despise to deal with aetherling.... Don't dilute your deck just out of fear of one card that quite frankly doesn't win the game on its own ..
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
Another thing about Big Red is that half of their nonland cards are noncreature cards, Duress and Sin Collector do work here, and Thoughtseize is better here than against traditional Red decks because they are a bit slower.
Also keep in mind, that not all Big Red lists run Mortars in the main, and even then, the most problematic card for Blood Baron is actually Chandra, Pyromaster.
EDIT
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Artifacts(3)
2 Trading Post
1 Whip of Erebos
Enchantments (3)
3 Chained to the Rocks
Instants(9)
3 Warleader's Helix
4 Magma Jet
2 Devour Flesh
Sorceries (8)
2 Dreadbore
1 Rakdos's Return
3 Thoughtseize
2 Read the Bones
2 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Mutavault
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Duress
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Warleader's Helix
3 Wear // Tear
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
Tinkering around with various things, I find this list to be a little amusing. I have not gotten in the testing I would like to get in with it, but it is not entirely half bad.
Trading Post has proven to be a pretty versatile 4 drop, being able to pick me up some life or throw down some blockers. It can also draw a card in a pinch, which usually means you are losing anyways. But it can also get back the Whip.
The Whip with Obzedat just seemed fun. I have not really gotten it off too many times, but it is there. The extra Lifelink is pretty cool out of nowhere, but with a bunch of Blood Baron's it seems... gimmicky. It kind of acts like a 5th Blood Baron though and with Reckoners it can just be a win when you combo out for a bunch of life.
Elspeth is still, incredibly slow. I am sure it is because I am so use to Aurelia, Thundermaw and Stormbreath being able to quickly close the game.
What I really am liking about the list, is more or less the lessons I am taking from it.
Whip can be just bonkers, and I think a more creature-centric build could profit off of it, whilst giving us access to infinite life out of Reckoner to maybe just force concession.
I like this list and have been a fan of the whip since it was shown. Why not take out elspeth and add one more whip and one aurelia. Since Aurelia and whip combo pretty well?
Edit: Here's what I would propose:
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Magma Jet
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Warleader's Helix
2 Read the Bones
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos' Return
3 Thoughtseize
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Do you even read the thread before posting?
on tap lands 6 has been ok for me. this deck really needs to play its three four and five drops on curve.
chain to the rocks has been pretty average so far I have been liking two.
RR is still testing poorly. control will just counter it or I never have enough mana to make it impactful. thoughtseize does enough with sin collector out of sb.
on peak eruption. its not constructed playable. if the damage was to creatures or players then mayby.
DD has been running fine in the four drop slot and he allows for two spells to be played turn five or six if you can manage it. right now I prefer demon over whip but honestly I only gotten whip in play when it mattered a few times so my sample size is too small to judge.
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Chained to the Rocks is a great. I am sorry you are only finding it average. The beg selling point is really the matches where you are facing things like Desecration Demon or another big fatty that cannot be mortars, Helix or Doom Bladed away. Speaking of which, I have even cut Doom Blade for it in some lists I have been playing with and really don't entirely miss it all that much. However, I love Doom Blade anyways so it always comes back in simply because of that.
Why is RR getting countered? Sin Collector and Thoughtseize are superb at setting it up. This deck should be shredding their hand completely if you are packing these.
I agree with Peak Erruption. The only thing that would trigger it to really see play is Chained to the Rocks, and I don't even think the prevalence of that card is going to exist outside of maybe this deck and Bigrw decks if they even exist.
So what is the main point of Desecration Demon?
The Whip seems to give this guy a complete run for his money in some lists. Reckoner with Lifelink is stupid and probably should just not happen... ever. Whip with Obzedat is incredibly powerful as you are swinging your life for 7 every turn, and you can just continuously bring him back.
Whip is almost good enough to just flat out replace our 4 drops all together. The only thing preventing that from happening as far as I can tell, is the fact that it is Legendary.
What I like about Whip it it's ability to pulls us into a powerful endgame in many different variations. Aurelia with it is just nuts, even if she is alone. Slower lists can run things like Angel of Serenity or Ashen Rider for a powerful bit of inevitability and Whip also opens up options to just cheat things like this into play as well.
Whip seems like the best 4 drop this deck has had the privilege of seeing.
So if you do not use Wear/Tear out of the board, what are you doing against Enchantment stack decks or Burning Earth?
I've read every page here, so I'm not sure why you're being so curt. Care to elaborate without being such a pissant?
control decks are running about 10 counters with more in sb with scrye they are seeing counters very frequently. that is how its getting countered. we have talked a lot about RR in the old thread if you want ill elaborate more on it if you want but ill leave it at; control plays more counters now ,we don't ramp, and it competes with turn 5 and 6 plays where I really want to be casting two spells. while it can blow some games out of the water like aurelia, however, it doesn't happen enough like that to make up for the rest of the time when its mediocre.
I can't comment with any confidence as to the whip or its playability I just haven't tired it enough. DD has been fine because with the cheap removal he doesn't get tapped as often as he did and when he does its not as bad as it used to be.
as far as enchantments most of them are still terrible. I can't reliably beat rdw when they have the nut burning earth draw and wear/tear is not improving the problem. this match seems mire dependant on anger of gods and life gain. that leaves d-sphere and unflinching courage. both can get hit by glare of heresy. glare also has applications in some control match ups and vs the mirror.
I have given some serious thought into testing legions initiative. many for the supreme verdict decks. it improves sin collect ability to fit through omen speaker, it negates wraths and can be a nice boon to creatures with etb abilities. never mind this just sounds bad.
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The main issue with Chandra for us, as opposed to something like Big Red, is that when we are casting her, it is generally at a time of stabilization and for that, she just does not do enough.
In the later stages of the game, she is just weaker than something like Elspeth, or anything else we could be playing.
She was good when Thragtusk decks were around because she could let Blood Baron get through or start flipping over Thundermaw Hellkites off the top when plays like that mattered a lot more, however Blood Baron worries less about green with the rotation of Thragtusk. We can now just use a removal spell to get it out of our way, and we don't need to flip over Thundermaws to negate the life gain aspect.
She just does not do enough when she needs to. It if it is too early, she is probably not your best play, if it is too late, she is probably outclassed by something else.
She is good, but in this deck, not good enough. If I may say so.
Hmm. I wonder if you are just on a bad streak or maybe electing the wrong targets? Idk. I really have not had an issue with them countering return.The real problem I have is grinding them into a top deck war where they just come back with a revelations, and that is simply because I am just being way too aggressive with my discard.
Is anyone else having issues like this? Maybe it is just me not having the issue out of luck.
Battling through a single Reckoner with a whip out is... really hard to do. A second one generally means you are exhausting resources or losing pressure and the third one usually means you are just too far behind.
That is in regards to aggro and Midrange.
For control, the whip doubles up as recursion, which is really nice with things like Obzedat.
It seems far more powerful than Demon, but then again, I have not tested this card anywhere near the level I have tested Demon out. Whip just seems to contribute well to games I should otherwise be losing.
Anger of the Gods has been far from a saving grace against red aggro decks for me.
Your points about Glare are completely valid though and will sway me to try it out for sure.
So with that being taken into consideration, Whip and more creatures seems pretty robust with Initiative. I like Initiative, it could be pretty sweet in general, but including the Whip just seems nuts, assuming LI would put them back into play... even if it does not it could be wild.
EDIT
LI would not bring them back into play after the whip. So never mind.
I can see how that may be the case in a three-color deck like this. Would you say she is better positioned against control than, say, Elspeth? I would think this would be the case given how little pressure control decks will be putting on you in the early game, and would definitely consider running 2-3 in the sideboard for those matchups. She's just so hard for control to deal with outside of Detention Sphere or Dreadbore, and running her simply increases your threat density against them (they can't counter EVERYTHING).
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You take the Counter to give yourself an opening, or if you had one, take the removal to protect your guy. From there, you start dismantling their ways of winning or fueling.
Their finishers are generally slow, as well as Revelations. You can hold off on taking those until later, because they won't be using them early simply because of their cost. You have time to prepare for those things as well as advance by focusing on counter, then removal, then the draw and finishers.
Against decks like Grixis, you probably do not win game 1. But this is an example of where Whip can just overhaul the game, letting you focus on taking their counter then recurring what they remove.
Also I like the deck with 24 lands + 3 Rakdos Keyrune. The Keyrune fills an empty 3 drop slot, fixes our mana, can give aggro fits and skips right up to our powerful 5 drops in Baron/Obzedat/Stormbreath, which can be crucial against other midrange decks. It lifts a lot of weight for a simple mana artifact.
I might be wrong, but I always thought a stable board was exactly when you did want to play Chandra. I agree she has very little immediate impact in the early game, but whoa boy do the scales tip the longer she is out drawing you free cards to where you dominate the mid/late game?
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