This is what im thinking about running. Zero play testing atm, dont have an idea on the SB yet other then lifebane zombie because I predict alot of GW aggro popping up.
Hmm, interesting, it looks similar to my list, except he went with a 2-2 split of RR/thoughtseize as opposed to only one. I also disagree with the dragon since it seems inferior to thundermaw, which was only run as a 2 of most of the time.
EDIT: also noticed that he didn't choose to run abrupt decay in his 75, which I also find a little questionable, but I guess this is just a test list.
I really like abrupt decay. Having one early can answer quite a few problematic things. With boros reckoner maybe coming back no way to gain life anymore effectively, slowing aggro down is nice.
Alrighty. We are testing against a 9 deck gauntlet(gb rock and jund are in it) and see how that goes. I'll post back with the results on how things go and if we convert to the jund side.
Reckoner without checklands in Jund is being extremely greedy, I don't think we can successful use those. About Elvish Mystic I prefer Caryatid since it blocks and can ramp into more things and can't be burnt right away. I miss some form of CA there, and powerhouses like Reaper of the Wilds and Stormbreath Dragon. Nonetheless I like the list more as a sketch and will procceed from yours taking out things I don't like.
Right now, I'm trying to fit 2 Primeval Bounty and a second Underworld Connections, but not sure about what to cut. Maybe 1 Stormbreath? Although it's been practically the best guy in the deck alongside Reaper of the Wilds, and is a huge mana sink. Desecration Demon is not so great when you're behind on board presence, thats why he got cut to 3: I'd prefer to drop a Reaper over a Demon any time of the week except when I have the board practically dominated. Also, is the removal right or should I play more Doom Blade / Putrefy / Mizzium Mortars and less jets?
EDIT: Some number of Thoughtseizes MD is also missing, and some source of lifegain like Bow / Whip. Also, is our manabase that greedy or can we make room for 1-2 Mutavault? That would give us a resilient source of damage alongside Keyrunes, Xenagos, and Bounty.
Reckoner without checklands in Jund is being extremely greedy, I don't think we can successful use those. About Elvish Mystic I prefer Caryatid since it blocks and can ramp into more things and can't be burnt right away. I miss some form of CA there, and powerhouses like Reaper of the Wilds and Stormbreath Dragon. Nonetheless I like the list more as a sketch and will procceed from yours taking out things I don't like.
Right now, I'm trying to fit 2 Primeval Bounty and a second Underworld Connections, but not sure about what to cut. Maybe 1 Stormbreath? Although it's been practically the best guy in the deck alongside Reaper of the Wilds, and is a huge mana sink. Desecration Demon is not so great when you're behind on board presence, thats why he got cut to 3: I'd prefer to drop a Reaper over a Demon any time of the week except when I have the board practically dominated. Also, is the removal right or should I play more Doom Blade / Putrefy / Mizzium Mortars and less jets?
EDIT: Some number of Thoughtseizes MD is also missing, and some source of lifegain like Bow / Whip. Also, is our manabase that greedy or can we make room for 1-2 Mutavault? That would give us a resilient source of damage alongside Keyrunes, Xenagos, and Bounty.
The elvish mystic are just to help hitting an earlier curve, even if they come down T2 (basically caryatid 5-6). I don't like read the bones, or Thoughtsieze, the life loss is just too much. Mono-red is going to be very very difficult to deal with. The amount of red sources is very high and supports reckoner pretty well. Reckoner is much better vs. burn deck then most 3 or 4 drops. Red deck is going to crush this deck almost regardless, I'm just hedging.
The elvish mystic are just to help hitting an earlier curve, even if they come down T2 (basically caryatid 5-6). I don't like read the bones, or Thoughtsieze, the life loss is just too much. Mono-red is going to be very very difficult to deal with. The amount of red sources is very high and supports reckoner pretty well. Reckoner is much better vs. burn deck then most 3 or 4 drops. Red deck is going to crush this deck almost regardless, I'm just hedging.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
So I accidentally wrote myself a primer as I'm still trying to nail down an initial decklist. I can post my slightly biased ramblings if anyone wants to read the whole thing, but the main thing that came out of it is testing three copies of Deathrite Shaman. It's our cheapest route to gaining life, it eats removal like a boss, it gives us the option to block against aggro, we don't mind blowing it out via Anger of the Gods, it gives us reach, clears graveyards if you choose to play Underworld Cerberus...I mean, sure, his first ability blanks for the most part, but you're already getting two creatures for the price of one (Scavenging Ooze and Grim Lavamancer). We don't have to be TOO greedy here, lol.
As an authority on red decks and a guy who's been testing Jund a lot, RDW crushes jund >_>
Sylvan Caryatid, Anger of the Gods, Magma Jet, and on a minor note Keyrune play a crucial keyrole here in containing them until we stabilize with bigger creatures and with lifegain, be it Primeval Bounty, Scavenging Ooze, or Whip / Bow. I'm not saying it's easy, but the matchup it's not that harsh to say that it "crushes". Just be wary of shocks, Seize and Read the Bone lifeloss.
@Saxman2112: Is DRS that viable? Now that Flashback and Snapcaster are gone, and its first ability practically blanks, I don't thing it can help.
@Saxman2112: Is DRS that viable? Now that Flashback and Snapcaster are gone, and its first ability practically blanks, I don't thing it can help.
Like I said, it's worth a shot. Could be flat-out terrible. But we get double the life per creature we exile, it's not a blank against control, and it's far more useful to topdeck later than Sylvan Caryatid, though to be fair, I'm trying my hardest to dodge playing Caryatid for now. Give me another week and I'll likely change my tune.
Small note, mostly to myself: If DRS becomes a thing, we'll have to up the 2-mana removal spells to maximize mana each turn, which probably means more Doom Blade/Dreadbore/Abrupt Decay so we can kill and exile reliably T3-T4 without having to shock ourselves too much to keep tempo.
What do people think about Shadowborn Demon? Great stats for a good price, has evasion, 6 toughness, dodges a lot of removal, and has inmediate board impact. Only downside is that we run little creatures, so his second ability can be problematic at times.
After other days of testing I found that we're pretty much dead against Big Red and its variants: what do you suggest to do against it? I'm still without sideboard (except from 4 Anger of the Gods vs. aggro), so I think Jund will need some card to fight those matchups.
I haven't gotten to play the matchup yet, so can you fill us in as to exactly why Big Red is tough to beat?
I've been thinking about Crypt Incursion as a way to gain life, as it seemed the most potent. Otherwise, I'm not certain where we're going to get more lifegain without drastic measures, or just protecting Scavenging Ooze until WAY late to maximize the lifegain that provides.
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Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
- Deathrite Shaman: Okay, 1st ability is blank, but can heal us and burn to the face.
- Scavenging Ooze: Heals, grows big and blocks.
- Bow of Nylea: Great utility here, as I said I like this more than whip, because on average this will win us more life the first turn, where it matters. Plus, drops earlier, and turns unused mana into +1/+1 counters EOT, which can be great on stalemates.
- Whip of Erebos: Lifelink on all creatures is great, but we don't play much creatures that gain 3+ life save Stormbreath / Reaper / Desecration Demon (which can be tapped). Reanimation is not that relevant.
- Primeval Bounty: Comes late in the game, but if it lands, we have a lot of utility in a hard to remove permanent, on top of gaining 3 life with every land drop.
I got a little testing in at FNM, mostly against Esper and a UG midrange shell with 10 mainboard counters.
Cards I was impressed with:
-Deathrite Shaman. I was flat-out shocked at how well he performed. Even without ramping for land, just being a Grim Lavamancer went a very long way to securing wins and protecting my life total, but I mostly burned people out.
-Reaper of the Wilds. I think we've said a lot about this card, but it continues to be an absolute house.
-Stormbreath Dragon. People hold back their removal specifically for SB, which is a testament to his power.
-Lifebane Zombie. Cheap evasive pressure, free information. Taking cards is merely a bonus.
Cards I tested, but was most definitely NOT impressed with:
-Polis Crusher. Even though it can be a 7/7 trample, the whole pro enchantments thing and blowing up enchantments really doesn't matter when you just win the game when he goes monstrous that turn/the next turn, or he just dies.
-Desecration Demon. It's a dude. A big, flying, practically vanilla target. Sure, he's got a big body, but I was never super excited to cast him.
-Whip of Erebos. I moved it to the board for now, but I will tell you the worst feeling in the world is looking at the Whip and wishing it were removal instead.
-Scavenging Ooze. Honestly, at this point, he's a bear. I was able to out-grow a Desecration Demon in a topdeck war, but that was about the only highlight. Otherwise, he was a 2/2, sometimes a 3/3 before he died.
-Magma Jet. It's a blank against midrange and control. The scry was not nearly as helpful as I had hoped, and the 2 damage is pretty abysmal. Sideboard some copies for G2+3 against aggro, but otherwise, just play hard removal.
Problem cards that we'll need to deal with:
-Blood Baron is a real threat. Exile/discard him if you see him or kill your opponent quickly, or else make sure you hold a Mortars for him, otherwise it's lights out. And even then, if he's backed by removal or counters, we're just flat out dead.
-Counterspells. With Cavern gone, we have no real way of sticking our threats outside of going deep with Mistcutter Hydra, and it seems to have gotten to the point where blue-based decks are more than happy to 1-for-1 us.
Cards I'm on the fence about:
-Vraska. There's only one copy, and when she's good, she's great. But when you've already got control of the game, she's not that great. Probably gonna move her to the board for a while as well.
-The 25th land. This is just going to take a lot more testing. Sample size tonight was way too small to get a good read on how the deck feels with and without it.
Overall, I'm just thinking about tuning it to be full midrange and concede game 1 to aggro, and just go all in on removal in G2, which means Underworld Connections in the main. Read The Bones is alright, but it is a one-shot deal compared to the every-turn threat of drawing a card (which draws counters and D-Spheres).
Big Edit: Something doesn't feel right about the mana base, either. Slamming 12 shocks and 4 Temple of Abandon and filling in with basics feels pretty terrible (and red heavy).
Hate to double post, but I got some good juice from yesterday’s testing that I want to get out there. I might have solved all our current problems by first of all stating that I was wrong. I think Sylvan Caryatid is probably a 4-of, no questions asked. Reason why I was so hesitant is because all things considered, having a single blocker on T2 and ramping into another single blocker T3 against aggro didn’t really seem all that exciting. Trying to answer weenie decks by spot removal, hoping to block enough damage here and there, and so on and so forth is a little too reactive, even for a deck like Jund. Also, having spots for things like Abrupt Decay and Anger of the Gods as general catch-alls seems more like an unnecessary evil than anything else. So wat do?
The answer, my friends: Gaze of Granite. Without ramp, it’s a pseudo-1CC/token killer T4. With Caryatid showing up and blocking some damage as well as providing ramp, it becomes a full-on board wipe. More importantly, it isn’t a straight up dead card against midrange and control. It’s a maindeckable answer to Chained to the Rocks and Detention Sphere, and when times get super desperate and you eventually flood out, it gives us another out to Blood Baron.
All that being said, I present my newest decklist:
Polukranos replaces Desecration Demon as the lesser of two feel-bad creatures. For the most part, it doesn't matter who you stick as a finisher when you gain control of the game. It matters a ton, however, when you still need to interact with your opponent. From a losing position, especially versus aggro, Desecration Demon might as well not even be there. I had a few feel-bad moments like that yesterday with and against RDW. I don't mind 3, 4, or 5-for-1ing myself by trading out a creature since you can make X = 2 for Polu's ability on curve and smoke their entire board. Just think of it as a slow, glorified removal spell.
Speaking of DD being invisible, I brought back one mainboard Whip. Nothing worse than Unearthing a creature only to get it tapped down. As I was testing against RDW and WBR midrange, I had the same thought about my then-mainboarded Underworld Connections as I had about the Whip as well: seeing two copies in the same game, let alone in your opening hand, feels absolutely abysmal. However, the Whip is a concession to the fact that we need to gain life in bulk, and more often than not, we can't wait for piddly 1-2 life here-and-there engines like DRS, Scooze, and the mana-intensive Bow of Nylea. We can also dig for it if it becomes necessary, which is a better proposition than having them clog your hand instead of actual answers.
While we're on the right path, I don't think we're absolutely settled. While it's true that Gaze of Granite removes problematic permanents, I think it's still too mana intensive even with ramp to be useful. I'd rather have a catch-all package with Dreadbore, Abrupt Decay and Anger of the Gods. I tested Shaman out of curiosity too, and he's too good to pass. We need some sources of lifegain, and Shaman fills that role while also being a Grim Lavamancer We need our creatures to be hard to deal with (of which we already have some), have some kind of value, or block profitably. Finally, we need to back our already resilient threats with disruption to make them impossible to get rid of and ride them to victory. On top of these things, we need some sources of draw and card advantage in order to dig for the answers we need, and back up all these with some Planeswalkers. So now, the deck can be divided in:
1): Catch-all answers, which are dead in the minimum number of matchups possible.
These are our options. I stated that Gaze of Granite is subpar, and Anger of the Gods is dead against control, but then again Supreme Verdict that UWx decks pack are dead against control too and we desperately need a sweeper. Lightning Strike is inferior to both Doom Blade in the sense that Doom Blade hits everything that Lightning Strike kills, and is inferior to Magma Jet in the sense that Jet provides CA. However, it is there and it's a option if you see many x/3's and can go to the face vs Control for added reach.
Shaman is a house and a must answer threat, so he also falls in the "Value Creatures" section. He can deal 4-6 damage to the face in a match, and heals us for 2 which is highly appreciated. Also eats removal like a champ. Scavenging Ooze gains 1 life and grows and can be activated multiple times a turn and in response of damage-based removal. About the artifacts, I think the best we can do is a split: Bow is mana intensive, and for Whip to work well you need to have out a creature with 3+ power. Primeval Bounty is the best one since it turns our land drops into 3 life; we can even play shocks untapped and gain 1 life instead of losing 2, and serves as a valuable wincon that is hard to deal with.
Maybe I'm missing some, but this is what we have. Both Reaper and Stormbreath excel at what they do, and we can all agree that these are staple creatures and probably our trademark in this season. Haunted Plate Mail and Rakdos Keyrune are also hard to deal with, especially for control, because they dodges sweepers and sorcery speed removal, and both provide a nice offense and defense. They're never dead since you can equip Plate Mail and ramp with Keyrune. Ruric has a nice body, has Reach and Vigilance, and while it has no protections, it's hard to deal with in the sense that you still eat one last hit from him should you target it with removal.
Deathrite Shaman and Ooze gain life and push some damage through. Caryatid blocks like a champ and ramps, and Lifebane Zombie gives info, takes a creature, and is an evasive hitter, but he's more of a SB option. Sire doubles as disruption and is also hard to deal with without topdecking an answer. Cerberus can be a powerful card that gives us back our threats if they somehow died, and alongside Whip's reanimation and Xenagos' and Primeval token, ensures we have a recursive supply of neverending creatures, and he also has great stats and evasiveness for it's cost. About Polukranos vs Demon:
Polukranos:
+ Blocks Blood Baron of Vizkopa.
+ Can become monstruous on curve while dealing 2 damage to some creature, or split 1-1 damage.
+ Potential mana sink late game that can take out some creatures while getting bigger.
- Dumb beater. Can be chumpblocked 24/7.
- Can be targeted via Doom Blade, which Baron decks pack.
- Legendary, so multiples in hand are dead.
- His ability can be pretty difficult to get value from.
Desecration Demon:
+ Great lockdown after a sweeper.
+ Does a nice job backed up by both sweepers and targeted removal.
+ Evasive.
+ If it doesn't grow bigger, he makes a edict. Every combat phase.
+ Immune to Doom Blade
- Abysmal if you're behind.
- Agains creature hordes, it's like he's not there.
- Gives your opponent choices.
- Reanimating him with whip just to get him tapped sucks.
Thoughtseize is the premier disruption spell. It can turn a keepable seven into a trash-worthy six. It can take out the only removal spell that can deal with our threat. It can kill Baron and Aetherling before they resolve. Lifebane Zombie takes out Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, Fleecemane Lion Boros Reckoner, opposing Reaper of the Wilds, Fiendslayer Paladin, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Obzedat, Ghost Council, and Aurelia the Warleader. Duress doubles the number of Thoughtseize we can pack against Control and Midrange. Rakdos Return can pretty much seal a game, and Sire of Insanity is more or less a Rakdos Return on a stick. I miss Blightning. Shame they didn't reprint it as a Rakdos Card in RTR / DGM.
I hate to admit it, but I think Chandra may be a necessary evil. His 0 ability lets us dig deeper, and the +1 might prove useful at times. Underworld Connections keeps the card flow going, and Magma Jet doubles as a removal spell / 2 to the face. Read the Bones not only lets us draw, but also to select what to draw.
I've added Primeval Bounty to the list since it's a hard to deal with permanent with three abilities (that you can activate multiples a turn). Vraska is proving slightly better than Xenagos with her ability to eat permanents out or doing a 2-for-1 with her +1. If we manage to resolve her ultimate vs anything (specially control) backed up with hand disruption it's practically game. Xenagos still packs a punch with hasty 2/2 tokens that can close a game and ramping for extra 1-2 mana with his +1. About Chandra, I've already talked about her before.
I don't believe i heard or saw of a single Jund list at this weekends SCG event, did anyone else?
I think the pieces are there for this to be another top tier deck this standard season, perhaps once the meta-game has settled a little and there aren't a million mono-red decks?
I don't believe i heard or saw of a single Jund list at this weekends SCG event, did anyone else?
I think the pieces are there for this to be another top tier deck this standard season, perhaps once the meta-game has settled a little and there aren't a million mono-red decks?
This is true, as we have a pretty good matchup against the field as a whole, but I'm getting closer and closer to believing that RDW versus us is practically a bye for them. Their basic draws put us in burn range by turn 4, and that's not including us shocking ourselves to play removal. And then they bring in Burning Earth game 2 and the game's just over.
I'm also processing Zephyr's last post. Lots of good analysis in there, and we can make a better picture of what's going on since we saw the SCG Open yesterday (spoiler alert: RDW, Esper/UW control, RG Monsters). I'll post back later this evening.
Reaper of the Wilds - Comes down turn 3 or 4 as a solid wall that aggro has plenty of difficulty getting around. There is plenty of removal available to handle Hydras coming down mid-game and Reaper + Caryatid + Rakdos Keyrune do an exceptional job of locking up the board against most everything else. The Reaper has far exceeded my expectations so far.
Chandra, Pyromaster - Excellent source of CA. I've really enjoyed her so far in this list. Her 0 often equates to "draw a card" as there are so many strong/efficient top decks to hit.
Putrefy + Dreadbore - This combination has been serving me extremely well, with Dreadbore providing cheap unconditional removal, and Putrefy providing instant speed answers when necessary (Obzedat). Right now I think I'd rather play this combo over any mix of Hero's Downfall. I really think it would be a mistake not to play at least two Dreadbore main deck, especially given aggro and UW control's showing last weekend in Worcester.
There are a few line items here that I'm still unsure about:
Magma Jet - I've run into a few situations where I've been able to get clever with Magma Jet + Rakdos Keyrune to take down some large attackers or blockers, however sometimes I've found myself wishing I was holding hard removal instead. The ability to set up your next draw or two (especially with Chandra/UC) and to potentially sort out land drops are definitely positives, however.
Primeval Bounty - Definitely a bomb if it hits the board, but PB might fit better into the sideboard. Doing so would open up space for another Dragon/hand disruption/removal depending on the metagame.
Bow of Nylea is a card I'd like to try out here. The recurring lifegain and ability to buff up Caryatids seems like they could be good. The second ability can also put Desecration Demon within reach of Mizzium Mortars or opposing Stormbreath Dragons within reach of Magma Jet. Hasty deathtouch satyr tokens from Xenagos could also be fun.
I tested briefly with Deathrite Shaman, but so far I've been happier with Lifebane Zombie + Scavenging Ooze to push through damage and gain life. Shaman would definitely be a fit though if Reanimator becomes a thing again.
One last note -- the mana base here actually doesn't feel too bad. It will be nice to replace the guildgates with additional temples once we get the Golgari and Rakdos versions, but for now the CIPTs haven't seemed to impact the deck's tempo significantly.
I'll start testing with both cards, as they offer a nice 3-drop (Boon Satyr can kill Blood Baron by flashing and blocking, Nighthowler can get out of hand pretty quickly with our removal, Demons and discard) and they offer the flexibility of Bestow for such a low price: Nighthowler grows as the game advances so he's not a dead topdeck ever, and Satyr can be flashed for Bestow late in the game into a creature. Both of them are hard to deal with because Bestow essentially grants them two lives.
EDIT: It's very, very sucky and offers too little, but if we desperately need lifegain and the options aren't enough, there's always Brindle Boar
4 sylvan caryatid
4 reaper of the wild
2 underworld cerberus
2 polukranos world eater
2 vraska the unseen
2 xenagos the reveler
3 thoughtsieze
3 dreadbore
3 abrupt decay
2 rakdos return
2 primeval bounty
4 overgrown tomb
4 blood crypt
4 forest
4 swamp
4 mountain
This is what im thinking about running. Zero play testing atm, dont have an idea on the SB yet other then lifebane zombie because I predict alot of GW aggro popping up.
So any thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?
Modern:
BRG DEMIGOD Jund GRB
UB TEZZ Control BU
Red has some of the best spells this rotation, it's a disservice to yourself to not run an additional color, despite a shocky/slow manabase.
edit: Oh yeah, Slaughter Games is pretty damn good vs. most decks, too.
Username: Cabz
Rakdos Keyrune and potential 5 and 6 drops like Underworld Cerberus, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Sire of Insanity all deserve a special mention.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I really like abrupt decay. Having one early can answer quite a few problematic things. With boros reckoner maybe coming back no way to gain life anymore effectively, slowing aggro down is nice.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jund-planeswalkers-19-09-13-1/
4x Blood Crypt
2x Forest
3x Gruul Guildgate
4x Mountain
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Rakdos Guildgate
4x Stomping Ground
4x Temple of Abandon
4x Boros Reckoner
2x Elvish Mystic
1x Polukranos, World Eater
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Doom Blade
4x Magma Jet
3x Mizzium Mortars
2x Rakdos's Return
4x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Vraska the Unseen
3x Xenagos, The Reveler
1x Rakdos Keyrune
Reckoner without checklands in Jund is being extremely greedy, I don't think we can successful use those. About Elvish Mystic I prefer Caryatid since it blocks and can ramp into more things and can't be burnt right away. I miss some form of CA there, and powerhouses like Reaper of the Wilds and Stormbreath Dragon. Nonetheless I like the list more as a sketch and will procceed from yours taking out things I don't like.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
3 Temple of Abandon
3 Golgari Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Desecration Demon
3 Stormbreath Dragon
Planeswalkers (5)
2 Vraska the Unseen
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Magma Jet
1 Putrefy
Sorceries (8)
1 Rakdos Return
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Read the Bones
Artifacts (2)
2 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Underworld Connections
Right now, I'm trying to fit 2 Primeval Bounty and a second Underworld Connections, but not sure about what to cut. Maybe 1 Stormbreath? Although it's been practically the best guy in the deck alongside Reaper of the Wilds, and is a huge mana sink. Desecration Demon is not so great when you're behind on board presence, thats why he got cut to 3: I'd prefer to drop a Reaper over a Demon any time of the week except when I have the board practically dominated. Also, is the removal right or should I play more Doom Blade / Putrefy / Mizzium Mortars and less jets?
EDIT: Some number of Thoughtseizes MD is also missing, and some source of lifegain like Bow / Whip. Also, is our manabase that greedy or can we make room for 1-2 Mutavault? That would give us a resilient source of damage alongside Keyrunes, Xenagos, and Bounty.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
The elvish mystic are just to help hitting an earlier curve, even if they come down T2 (basically caryatid 5-6). I don't like read the bones, or Thoughtsieze, the life loss is just too much. Mono-red is going to be very very difficult to deal with. The amount of red sources is very high and supports reckoner pretty well. Reckoner is much better vs. burn deck then most 3 or 4 drops. Red deck is going to crush this deck almost regardless, I'm just hedging.
With Anger of the Gods and Magma Jet, Red decks should not crush Jund Midrange.
Username: Cabz
As an authority on red decks and a guy who's been testing Jund a lot, RDW crushes jund >_>
Anyway, here's a list:
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Reaper of the Wild
3 Desecration Demon
3 Stormbreath Dragon
Spells: 19
4 Thoughtseize
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Putrefy
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Magma Jet
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Read The Bones
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple of Silence
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Duress
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Underworld Connections
2 Xenagos, The Reveler
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Polis Crusher
This might actually be all kinds of terrible, but it's worth a peek into.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
Sylvan Caryatid, Anger of the Gods, Magma Jet, and on a minor note Keyrune play a crucial keyrole here in containing them until we stabilize with bigger creatures and with lifegain, be it Primeval Bounty, Scavenging Ooze, or Whip / Bow. I'm not saying it's easy, but the matchup it's not that harsh to say that it "crushes". Just be wary of shocks, Seize and Read the Bone lifeloss.
@Saxman2112: Is DRS that viable? Now that Flashback and Snapcaster are gone, and its first ability practically blanks, I don't thing it can help.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Like I said, it's worth a shot. Could be flat-out terrible. But we get double the life per creature we exile, it's not a blank against control, and it's far more useful to topdeck later than Sylvan Caryatid, though to be fair, I'm trying my hardest to dodge playing Caryatid for now. Give me another week and I'll likely change my tune.
Small note, mostly to myself: If DRS becomes a thing, we'll have to up the 2-mana removal spells to maximize mana each turn, which probably means more Doom Blade/Dreadbore/Abrupt Decay so we can kill and exile reliably T3-T4 without having to shock ourselves too much to keep tempo.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
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I haven't gotten to play the matchup yet, so can you fill us in as to exactly why Big Red is tough to beat?
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
- Stormbreath Dragon
- Burning Earth
- Boros Reckoner
Burning Earth can be killed with SB Golgari Charm and MB Vraska if they pack it G1. When they cast it G2 and 3, float GB and when BE resolves, crash it with a Charm. Boros Reckoner dies to Doom Blade, Putrefy, Abrupt Decay, Hero's Demise, Dreadbore and Vraska without hurting us. Mizzium Mortars, Stormbreath Dragon, Reaper of the Wilds are more painful ways for dealing with it (unless the opponent is not smart enough and points the ability to Reaper, which will in turn activate Hexproof). Dragon is killed by Doom Blade, Putrefy, Dreadbore, Hero's Demise, Mizzium Mortars, Vraska, Desecration Demon and our own Dragon. For everything else, we just have to gain life like crazy.
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3 Blood Crypt
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Golgari Guildgate
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Nighthowler
3 Desecration Demon
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Underworld Cerberus
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Magma Jet
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dreadbore
2 Putrefy
1 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Whip of Erebos
I've been thinking about Crypt Incursion as a way to gain life, as it seemed the most potent. Otherwise, I'm not certain where we're going to get more lifegain without drastic measures, or just protecting Scavenging Ooze until WAY late to maximize the lifegain that provides.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
- Deathrite Shaman: Okay, 1st ability is blank, but can heal us and burn to the face.
- Scavenging Ooze: Heals, grows big and blocks.
- Bow of Nylea: Great utility here, as I said I like this more than whip, because on average this will win us more life the first turn, where it matters. Plus, drops earlier, and turns unused mana into +1/+1 counters EOT, which can be great on stalemates.
- Whip of Erebos: Lifelink on all creatures is great, but we don't play much creatures that gain 3+ life save Stormbreath / Reaper / Desecration Demon (which can be tapped). Reanimation is not that relevant.
- Primeval Bounty: Comes late in the game, but if it lands, we have a lot of utility in a hard to remove permanent, on top of gaining 3 life with every land drop.
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Cards I was impressed with:
-Deathrite Shaman. I was flat-out shocked at how well he performed. Even without ramping for land, just being a Grim Lavamancer went a very long way to securing wins and protecting my life total, but I mostly burned people out.
-Reaper of the Wilds. I think we've said a lot about this card, but it continues to be an absolute house.
-Stormbreath Dragon. People hold back their removal specifically for SB, which is a testament to his power.
-Lifebane Zombie. Cheap evasive pressure, free information. Taking cards is merely a bonus.
Cards I tested, but was most definitely NOT impressed with:
-Polis Crusher. Even though it can be a 7/7 trample, the whole pro enchantments thing and blowing up enchantments really doesn't matter when you just win the game when he goes monstrous that turn/the next turn, or he just dies.
-Desecration Demon. It's a dude. A big, flying, practically vanilla target. Sure, he's got a big body, but I was never super excited to cast him.
-Whip of Erebos. I moved it to the board for now, but I will tell you the worst feeling in the world is looking at the Whip and wishing it were removal instead.
-Scavenging Ooze. Honestly, at this point, he's a bear. I was able to out-grow a Desecration Demon in a topdeck war, but that was about the only highlight. Otherwise, he was a 2/2, sometimes a 3/3 before he died.
-Magma Jet. It's a blank against midrange and control. The scry was not nearly as helpful as I had hoped, and the 2 damage is pretty abysmal. Sideboard some copies for G2+3 against aggro, but otherwise, just play hard removal.
Problem cards that we'll need to deal with:
-Blood Baron is a real threat. Exile/discard him if you see him or kill your opponent quickly, or else make sure you hold a Mortars for him, otherwise it's lights out. And even then, if he's backed by removal or counters, we're just flat out dead.
-Counterspells. With Cavern gone, we have no real way of sticking our threats outside of going deep with Mistcutter Hydra, and it seems to have gotten to the point where blue-based decks are more than happy to 1-for-1 us.
Cards I'm on the fence about:
-Vraska. There's only one copy, and when she's good, she's great. But when you've already got control of the game, she's not that great. Probably gonna move her to the board for a while as well.
-The 25th land. This is just going to take a lot more testing. Sample size tonight was way too small to get a good read on how the deck feels with and without it.
Overall, I'm just thinking about tuning it to be full midrange and concede game 1 to aggro, and just go all in on removal in G2, which means Underworld Connections in the main. Read The Bones is alright, but it is a one-shot deal compared to the every-turn threat of drawing a card (which draws counters and D-Spheres).
Big Edit: Something doesn't feel right about the mana base, either. Slamming 12 shocks and 4 Temple of Abandon and filling in with basics feels pretty terrible (and red heavy).
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
The answer, my friends: Gaze of Granite. Without ramp, it’s a pseudo-1CC/token killer T4. With Caryatid showing up and blocking some damage as well as providing ramp, it becomes a full-on board wipe. More importantly, it isn’t a straight up dead card against midrange and control. It’s a maindeckable answer to Chained to the Rocks and Detention Sphere, and when times get super desperate and you eventually flood out, it gives us another out to Blood Baron.
All that being said, I present my newest decklist:
4 Blood Crypt
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Abandom
2 Golgari Guildgate
1 Mountain
5 Swamp
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
Spells: 19
3 Thoughtseize
2 Gaze of Granite
2 Doom Blade
2 Hero’s Downfall
2 Putrefy
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos’s Return
3 Read the Bones
1 Whip of Erebos
Some notes:
Polukranos replaces Desecration Demon as the lesser of two feel-bad creatures. For the most part, it doesn't matter who you stick as a finisher when you gain control of the game. It matters a ton, however, when you still need to interact with your opponent. From a losing position, especially versus aggro, Desecration Demon might as well not even be there. I had a few feel-bad moments like that yesterday with and against RDW. I don't mind 3, 4, or 5-for-1ing myself by trading out a creature since you can make X = 2 for Polu's ability on curve and smoke their entire board. Just think of it as a slow, glorified removal spell.
Speaking of DD being invisible, I brought back one mainboard Whip. Nothing worse than Unearthing a creature only to get it tapped down. As I was testing against RDW and WBR midrange, I had the same thought about my then-mainboarded Underworld Connections as I had about the Whip as well: seeing two copies in the same game, let alone in your opening hand, feels absolutely abysmal. However, the Whip is a concession to the fact that we need to gain life in bulk, and more often than not, we can't wait for piddly 1-2 life here-and-there engines like DRS, Scooze, and the mana-intensive Bow of Nylea. We can also dig for it if it becomes necessary, which is a better proposition than having them clog your hand instead of actual answers.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
1): Catch-all answers, which are dead in the minimum number of matchups possible.
1 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Putrefy
1 Doom Blade
1 Lightning Strike
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Gaze of Granite
These are our options. I stated that Gaze of Granite is subpar, and Anger of the Gods is dead against control, but then again Supreme Verdict that UWx decks pack are dead against control too and we desperately need a sweeper. Lightning Strike is inferior to both Doom Blade in the sense that Doom Blade hits everything that Lightning Strike kills, and is inferior to Magma Jet in the sense that Jet provides CA. However, it is there and it's a option if you see many x/3's and can go to the face vs Control for added reach.
2): Lifegain.
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Primeval Bounty
Shaman is a house and a must answer threat, so he also falls in the "Value Creatures" section. He can deal 4-6 damage to the face in a match, and heals us for 2 which is highly appreciated. Also eats removal like a champ. Scavenging Ooze gains 1 life and grows and can be activated multiple times a turn and in response of damage-based removal. About the artifacts, I think the best we can do is a split: Bow is mana intensive, and for Whip to work well you need to have out a creature with 3+ power. Primeval Bounty is the best one since it turns our land drops into 3 life; we can even play shocks untapped and gain 1 life instead of losing 2, and serves as a valuable wincon that is hard to deal with.
3): Creatures.
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Haunted Plate Mail
1 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Maybe I'm missing some, but this is what we have. Both Reaper and Stormbreath excel at what they do, and we can all agree that these are staple creatures and probably our trademark in this season. Haunted Plate Mail and Rakdos Keyrune are also hard to deal with, especially for control, because they dodges sweepers and sorcery speed removal, and both provide a nice offense and defense. They're never dead since you can equip Plate Mail and ramp with Keyrune. Ruric has a nice body, has Reach and Vigilance, and while it has no protections, it's hard to deal with in the sense that you still eat one last hit from him should you target it with removal.
1 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Desecration Demon
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Lifebane Zombie
1 Underworld Cerberus
Deathrite Shaman and Ooze gain life and push some damage through. Caryatid blocks like a champ and ramps, and Lifebane Zombie gives info, takes a creature, and is an evasive hitter, but he's more of a SB option. Sire doubles as disruption and is also hard to deal with without topdecking an answer. Cerberus can be a powerful card that gives us back our threats if they somehow died, and alongside Whip's reanimation and Xenagos' and Primeval token, ensures we have a recursive supply of neverending creatures, and he also has great stats and evasiveness for it's cost. About Polukranos vs Demon:
Polukranos:
+ Blocks Blood Baron of Vizkopa.
+ Can become monstruous on curve while dealing 2 damage to some creature, or split 1-1 damage.
+ Potential mana sink late game that can take out some creatures while getting bigger.
- Dumb beater. Can be chumpblocked 24/7.
- Can be targeted via Doom Blade, which Baron decks pack.
- Legendary, so multiples in hand are dead.
- His ability can be pretty difficult to get value from.
Desecration Demon:
+ Great lockdown after a sweeper.
+ Does a nice job backed up by both sweepers and targeted removal.
+ Evasive.
+ If it doesn't grow bigger, he makes a edict. Every combat phase.
+ Immune to Doom Blade
- Abysmal if you're behind.
- Agains creature hordes, it's like he's not there.
- Gives your opponent choices.
- Reanimating him with whip just to get him tapped sucks.
4): Disruption
1 Rakdos Return
1 Lifebane Zombie
1 Duress
1 Sire of Insanity
Thoughtseize is the premier disruption spell. It can turn a keepable seven into a trash-worthy six. It can take out the only removal spell that can deal with our threat. It can kill Baron and Aetherling before they resolve. Lifebane Zombie takes out Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, Fleecemane Lion Boros Reckoner, opposing Reaper of the Wilds, Fiendslayer Paladin, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Obzedat, Ghost Council, and Aurelia the Warleader. Duress doubles the number of Thoughtseize we can pack against Control and Midrange. Rakdos Return can pretty much seal a game, and Sire of Insanity is more or less a Rakdos Return on a stick. I miss Blightning. Shame they didn't reprint it as a Rakdos Card in RTR / DGM.
5): Card Advantage
1 Magma Jet
1 Read the Bones
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
I hate to admit it, but I think Chandra may be a necessary evil. His 0 ability lets us dig deeper, and the +1 might prove useful at times. Underworld Connections keeps the card flow going, and Magma Jet doubles as a removal spell / 2 to the face. Read the Bones not only lets us draw, but also to select what to draw.
6): Planeswalkers
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Primeval Bounty
I've added Primeval Bounty to the list since it's a hard to deal with permanent with three abilities (that you can activate multiples a turn). Vraska is proving slightly better than Xenagos with her ability to eat permanents out or doing a 2-for-1 with her +1. If we manage to resolve her ultimate vs anything (specially control) backed up with hand disruption it's practically game. Xenagos still packs a punch with hasty 2/2 tokens that can close a game and ramping for extra 1-2 mana with his +1. About Chandra, I've already talked about her before.
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I think the pieces are there for this to be another top tier deck this standard season, perhaps once the meta-game has settled a little and there aren't a million mono-red decks?
This is true, as we have a pretty good matchup against the field as a whole, but I'm getting closer and closer to believing that RDW versus us is practically a bye for them. Their basic draws put us in burn range by turn 4, and that's not including us shocking ourselves to play removal. And then they bring in Burning Earth game 2 and the game's just over.
I'm also processing Zephyr's last post. Lots of good analysis in there, and we can make a better picture of what's going on since we saw the SCG Open yesterday (spoiler alert: RDW, Esper/UW control, RG Monsters). I'll post back later this evening.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Scavenging Ooze
2x Lifebane Zombie
3x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Stormbreath Dragon
Planeswalkers (3)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Xenagos, the Reveler
Instants (5)
3x Magma Jet
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Putrefy
Sorceries (9)
2x Thoughtseize
3x Dreadbore
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Rakdos's Return
2x Rakdos Keyrune
Enchantments (2)
1x Underworld Connections
1x Primeval Bounty
Lands (25)
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Blood Crypt
3x Stomping Ground
2x Temple of Abandon
2x Golgari Guildgate
1x Rakdos Guildgate
5x Forest
4x Swamp
1x Underworld Connections
1x Vraska the Unseen
1x Golgari Charm
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Lifebane Zombie
2x Thoughtseize
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Putrefy
2x Slaughter Games
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Sire of Insanity
A few cards have been definite standouts:
Reaper of the Wilds - Comes down turn 3 or 4 as a solid wall that aggro has plenty of difficulty getting around. There is plenty of removal available to handle Hydras coming down mid-game and Reaper + Caryatid + Rakdos Keyrune do an exceptional job of locking up the board against most everything else. The Reaper has far exceeded my expectations so far.
Chandra, Pyromaster - Excellent source of CA. I've really enjoyed her so far in this list. Her 0 often equates to "draw a card" as there are so many strong/efficient top decks to hit.
Putrefy + Dreadbore - This combination has been serving me extremely well, with Dreadbore providing cheap unconditional removal, and Putrefy providing instant speed answers when necessary (Obzedat). Right now I think I'd rather play this combo over any mix of Hero's Downfall. I really think it would be a mistake not to play at least two Dreadbore main deck, especially given aggro and UW control's showing last weekend in Worcester.
There are a few line items here that I'm still unsure about:
Magma Jet - I've run into a few situations where I've been able to get clever with Magma Jet + Rakdos Keyrune to take down some large attackers or blockers, however sometimes I've found myself wishing I was holding hard removal instead. The ability to set up your next draw or two (especially with Chandra/UC) and to potentially sort out land drops are definitely positives, however.
Desecration Demon - I'm on the fence about DD in this build. He definitely presents a must-answer threat, however I feel like mix of Lifebane Zombie/Reaper of the Wilds/Stormbreath Dragon can be enough to go over the top once the game has stabilized.
Primeval Bounty - Definitely a bomb if it hits the board, but PB might fit better into the sideboard. Doing so would open up space for another Dragon/hand disruption/removal depending on the metagame.
Bow of Nylea is a card I'd like to try out here. The recurring lifegain and ability to buff up Caryatids seems like they could be good. The second ability can also put Desecration Demon within reach of Mizzium Mortars or opposing Stormbreath Dragons within reach of Magma Jet. Hasty deathtouch satyr tokens from Xenagos could also be fun.
I tested briefly with Deathrite Shaman, but so far I've been happier with Lifebane Zombie + Scavenging Ooze to push through damage and gain life. Shaman would definitely be a fit though if Reanimator becomes a thing again.
One last note -- the mana base here actually doesn't feel too bad. It will be nice to replace the guildgates with additional temples once we get the Golgari and Rakdos versions, but for now the CIPTs haven't seemed to impact the deck's tempo significantly.
- Boon Satyr
I'll start testing with both cards, as they offer a nice 3-drop (Boon Satyr can kill Blood Baron by flashing and blocking, Nighthowler can get out of hand pretty quickly with our removal, Demons and discard) and they offer the flexibility of Bestow for such a low price: Nighthowler grows as the game advances so he's not a dead topdeck ever, and Satyr can be flashed for Bestow late in the game into a creature. Both of them are hard to deal with because Bestow essentially grants them two lives.
EDIT: It's very, very sucky and offers too little, but if we desperately need lifegain and the options aren't enough, there's always Brindle Boar
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
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