The reason I did this to the deck is that Reaper is amazing with Domri! Underworld Cerberus works well with lotleth troll also it turns off the whip and thats a bonus. It just works so well with board presence. And the side board is amazing.
Im really wanting to play test this deck. And I keep seeing everyone say that the Troll is basically the best card/win con in this deck. Not having played the card I don't see why it is SO good, is it simply because you just leave 1 swamp open all the time to regen it? Also, are you ever discarding creatures out of your hand to pump it up? I can see possibly discarding the deadbridge goliath to give it +1/+1 and then next turn scavenging it.. but that would be pretty late game and the game will already be well in hand by then/out of hand by then.
Would love a more detailed analysis as to how to SB, especially from your list ConsiderWhy ( I would like to play the more simplified version before splashing more red)
Also how exactly are we supposed to use the boon satyr? And I like the ghor-clan rampager... do you just discard those 90% of the time for the obvious +4/+4 but wouldnt you also get the +1/+1 for the troll?
Playing with the Troll and using him properly takes practice. You got to be able to read the game state to see if it is worth discarding creatures to pump him. There is games where he is just a 2/1 regenerating wall, other games where he gets several creatures discarded to him to make him into a regenerating trampler.
Boon Satyr is the same way. There is games where you want to use him for his bestow ability to have something like your Elvish Mystic trade up, bestow him on a Witchstalker or Lotleth Troll for a big beater, flash him into play so he is like a haste creature, etc.
That's what I like about this deck, it doesn't necessarily play a very linear strategy. The cards are flexible and have different roles into different matchups/game states.
So dumb question, if a person sweeps the board with supreme verdict and you have a troll out... you can still regen it right. So what beats the troll if you have the open mana to regen it? I assume a detention sphere right.. what else?
My removal of choice: Putrefy. Also, you have to keep mana and that's a whole different argument, on whether you consider Troll as a 3 drop or a conditional 2 drop.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bringing Turbo-Hydra back to Standard...
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
I appreciate it, Id personaly probably have to consider it a 3 drop. But then its like you basically have to play everything a turn late to keep that extra mana open. Im really looking forward to play testing this deck. What list do you use Doom?
I think everyone should read this article, I think it defines this deck perfectly. I will go into an in depth post later as to why this is, to me, an aggro-control deck.
So, to create a meaningless checklist (people love checklists), I thought I'd provide a list of the choices that are very necessary to master and how I'd approach them.
1.
Regen on Loleth Troll. This guy is such a conditional 2-drop. Some decks, you have got to start putting the pressure early. Some decks you want to hold up until T3 (or really, this actually means when you have GBB so you can cast and regen). I find myself just running out Loleth Troll on T2 in most games. We're a versatile deck but we'd much rather be on the aggro end of the spectrum. We're (I mean, me and maybe people who actually like winning) running 4 Loleth Trolls. Don't act like this is an "all the eggs in one basket" deck. Knowing when to keep up for regen is the most important part of this deck because this guy either (1) clogs up the board against aggro (2) creates a difficult to remove attacker against control and (3) something that can regen and then grow to undealwittable sizes against midrange. The regen helps us win games. Unfortunately, Loleth Troll isn't a good enough card to ride all the way to the end. So....
2.
Knowing when to bestow or knowing when to flash in Boon Satyr. This is easier, I think. Against control, I am much more want to flash him after a board wipe or a tap out for Jace (duh). This is also our removal against an attacking BBoV. Against mid-range, I usually bestow unless I'm going for the aggro kill. Against aggro I wish I had Witchstalker or something else in hand (see: this card is just a Murder against aggro, ew). Ha, well, whatever. The card is good enough to warrant a spot in the 60.
3.
Playing Reaper of the Wilds T4 or T6. This is hard. I find myself playing her T4 against aggro. They really can't kill her so whatever, that's easy. Against mid-range I at least want to play her into deathtouch mana. But more likely with hexproof mana because most play removal that will deal with her. That requires knowing the removal they run. Against control I play her T6 most days. However, if I have a good follow up and need to put pressure on, she comes out T4. You don't want to get in a war of attrition with Esper which will occur if you play her T6. Keep in mind Thoughtseize gets rid of her just as well as playing her without 2 mana open.
4.
Knowing when to pitch to Loleth Troll. This is pretty hard but doesn't have as huge of impact on our deck, I think (unless you're dumb and pitching your entire hand). I find myself pitching, as mentioned previously, against mid-range. I never ever pitch against control or if they run BBoV. I pitch fairly often against aggro. I pitch things everything except for Polukranos, World Eater (against aggro) and Boon Satyr (against everything). Pitching a lot to Loleth Troll causes us to look a bit like Bant Hexproof of last year. It's a really good ability. Just don't be dumb and run it into a bad time. If you pitch a bunch, you get the occasional blow-out when they play Devour Flesh. Sometimes is pays to have patience and not pitch. Sometimes it pays to pitch, especially if they can't deal with him. Note: pitching gets worse game 2. You can figure out the reasoning.
5.
You have Elvish Mystic and Thoughtseize in your opening hand. What do you do? Well, this isn't the whole picture. Ideally, you've got a T2 3 drop to ramp into. If not, I'd think long and hard before I T1 Mystic. If game 1, you play Mystic and hold onto Thoughtseize and then they play swamp and Thoughtseize and rip your next turn drop, you're going to have a bad time. This takes a serious knowledge about your meta. No one can help you if you don't want to collect information about your opponent pre-match. Do this, even if you're an aggro deck, and you'll know the T1 play. Thoughtseize also gets in the way of our Loleth Troll plays if it's not T1. Consider how this card fits in your meta and when it should be played. It might not even fit.
I hope this helps a bit.
Splashing a 3rd color seems greedy. You're playing Loleth Troll. If you play him into a removal spell you need GBB. You're playing a number of creatures with double color costs. Most can't even play Mutavault. You're only playing 23-24 mana. Not 26. Your mana will not have moves like Jagger. It will not be smooth like Keith Stone. Good luck playing aggro with a broken curve because, "God, this deck keeps on screwing me with mana!" Standard decks function well following KISS. Follow it.
Don't like losing to mana screw? Don't play three colors.
@lugger91, was just working on a post like that, here is what I was working on:
I basically like to break down cards into three categories:
How is it against aggro; how is it against midrange; how is it against control? Here is a basic card by card breakdown of my deck choices:
Reaper of the Wilds - Can play the role of being a big blocker; can be an expensive removal spell and a good "Voltron" card; can be a difficult to deal with threat.
Witchstalker - Excellent card at being a blocker; good "Voltron" type card; can be a difficult to deal with threat.
Boon Satyr - Can be a removal spell; "Voltron" piece; provides suprise damage (EOT or "Voltroning").
Varolz, the Scar-Striped - Can be an excellent blocker; "Voltron" enabler; can be a difficult to deal with threat.
Lotleth Troll - Excellent blocker; good creature to "Voltron"; can be a difficult to deal with threat.
Scavenging Ooze - Gains life; can quickly become the biggest creature on the board; cheap, effienct beater.
Elvish Mystic - Trades with X/1 creatures; allows us to power out threats faster; allows us to be able to cast more spells per turn.
Whip of Erebos - Gains life; recurs threats.
Hero's Downfall - Clears the path for our creatures; best removal type; takes out Planeswalkers.
Abrupt Decay - Clears the path for our creatures; best removal type; has other relevant targets.
Thoughtseize - Take away their best threat; take away their removal; know their hand.
Gift of Orzhova - Gains life; excellent "Voltron" piece.
Golgari Charm - Sweeper; Regeneration; very relevant targets.
Doom Blade - Cheap, efficient removal.
Duress - Take away removal; take away non-creature threats; take away counterspells.
Pithing Needle - Cheap, efficient answer to multiple card types.
I would replacedreg mangler with witchstalker and elvish mystic with sylvan cariatid. Hexprof is huge nowadays
I could dig witchstalker over mangler, but this deck has a lot of powerful turn 2 plays with mystic. But caryatid is an option. One that I may explore.
Im happy to see the thread move along this decks good and deserves to be talked about. The idea of it being an agro control deck is great I have always felt playing more creatures in the deck is the way to go because all of the effects in the deck center around creatures doing something usually dieing lol.
The last list on here was good and had very valid points thumbs up on boon satyr example. I do have thoughtseize but my friend wanted to play Mono black devotion so i let him use them they where in my sideboard and willl be added back as soon as they can lol.
know on a side note I never said that I had mana screw the deck dosnt realy on red that bad, GCR is not even makeing the cut any more and the Cerberus is amazing and domri just dose work witht the deck.Sylvan caryatid also helps alot better utopia tree is better! and can stop agro nicely.
If i ex-plane the manabase I made. The stomping grounds went in for forests aswell as the 2 temples and the blood crypts went in for swamps. Now the mutavaults i agree are greedy but I took the giuldgates out for them cause CITPT lands suck and i only wanted 2 with scry and when the B/g scry land comes out its replaceing the r/g one's! Also you can scavenge on to a mutavault it works really well at beating up control, and mutavault helps win games faster. Trust me i,ve been playing them and thoughtseize sence they came out in the lorwyn set thier good and can both be used in this deck.
I could dig witchstalker over mangler, but this deck has a lot of powerful turn 2 plays with mystic. But caryatid is an option. One that I may explore.
dreg mangler is a solid card. A 3/3 haste possibly on turn 2 is pretty huge, don't forget about scavange; he's not useless if they spend the resources to kill him. I can't see a situation where I'd rather have witchstalker over it, at least in the main deck.
I've yet to see a list where caryatid is essential, though it's too useful of a card to rule out completely. Keep in mind that mystic can attack, that makes a difference when you consider scavange and boon satyr.
Don't dismiss Witchstalker so quickly, it is very good in all matchups. I would rather cast it over Dreg Mangler in almost every circumstance. I had Dreg Mangler in here at first, but it was quickly replaced.
Witchstalker is better against aggro decks because it shuts their removal off, same in the midrange matchup, and control has to answer it (and they don't have many answers to it) or they lose quickly to it.
Lastly, it is just a superior creature to "Voltron" with.
yea so far I really like having dreg mangler and mystic in the deck. They add a really aggressive attack to it. Im not liking Experiment One though. He feels a little lacking and is a horrid top deck. Might replace him with something else.
Might just replace him with caryatid but I dont think 8 mana dorks is really needed with this deck. Although getting to 4 mana is SUPER important.
Also scavenging Ooze is a pretty good card. Maybe a 2/2 split with him and caryatid is an option.
thoughts on that?
Edit: I dont discount Witchstalker at all. I just like my dmg hastey. If i find room in the board for stalker i'd play him or if mangler just proves to be lacking. Everytime i play mangler im going to imagine it being stalker, and see if the game plays out any different. It very well might. But I do think witchstalker is really good right now.
There has never been a time when playing Witchstalker that I wish it were Dreg Mangler. Never. A 3CMC Hexproof on a 3/3 body is far too valuable in a format filled with premium spot removal.
We play him T2 and we want to T3 into a good 4 drop which is.... Reaper? We don't always want to play Reaper T4 and it's not exactly the biggest beater around. Caryatid is great when you're ramping into Polukranos and DD. Those guys on T3 is awesome.
However, in this deck, we have a bunch of critical 3 drops. What does Caryatid do for this?
Answer: becomes a blocker assuming we hit T3 land for our 3 drop. That's not ramp. That's following the same curve as anyother deck.
That's why you play Elvish Mystic over Caryatid.
If you find yourself wanting to play Caryatid either turn this deck into a 4 drop deck or convince yourself to not run Caryatid; then run more beats or removal.
Just want to post up some results from the Tournament Practice Room tonight.
Match 1: 2-0
Rw Aggro deck that splashes for Chained to the Rocks. Completely crushed him, he has a hard time interacting with my creatures and my removal controls his Boros Reckoners.
Match 2: 0-2
UW Control. First game I have a really bad draw and he has a really good one. Second game I got him down to two life, but he has a handful of Azouris Charms and Celestial Flares, if I just draw one discard spell this game I win, but no luck.
Match 3: 2-1
Mono Red. First game he crushes me, second game I have a bunch of cheap removal and Scavenging Ooze wins me the game. Third game is just the same, this time with creatures to trade with him early game then Scavenging Ooze wins me the game. It's not unusual to have a Scavenging Ooze at about a 10/10 in this matchup. The second game I had a Whip of Erebos in my hand but never really got a chance to cast it.
The fact that I was able to go 3-1 (5-3) with the above deck list says something about this deck archtype. I am currently in the works of getting the last pieces for the deck right now, just haven't been really rushing it to be honest.
The MVP of the night was Witchstalker followed closely by Lotleth Troll. These two guys are just so powerful with all the targeted removal running around.
For the UW matchup, if I had the full compliment of Thoughtseizes and Duress from the sideboard, I like this matchup. Golgari Charm was really good as well (the second game I could have probably won if I had one more Swamp to cast a second Golgari Charm for his Supreme Verdict after he countered the first one or if I had drawn one discard spell to finish him off, oh well).
Interesting list slater, what are your thoughts on Varolz, the Scar-Striped? The more I play him, the less I like him. I'm thinking of probably cutting him to one or two.
I like him at 2. His ability helps in the mid to late game by making our creatures that are in play far more threatening. I really like scavenging onto Reaper of the Wilds, Witchstalker, and Lotleth Troll; it makes those early creatures that they dealt with into pump spells to finish out games. Other times he helps create bigger creatures so that we have the biggest guys on the board in creature matchups. And he regenerates, which is always a plus.
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Boon Satyr
4 Dreg Mangler
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
3 Deadbridge goliath
4 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hero’s Downfall
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Golgari Guildgate
9 Forest
8 Swamp
4 Domri rade, 3 Underworld Cerberus and 2-3 Chor-clan Rampager.
It works well hear it is sorry op!
Lands creatures
6 forest 4 elvish mystic
1 swamp 4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 temple of abandon 4 Lotleth Troll
4 stomping ground 3 Scavenging Ooze
4 overgrown tomb 3 Boon satyr
4 blood crypt 3 dreg mangler
3 mutavault 2 deadbridge goliath
3 reaper of the wilds
non- creature 3 underworld Cerberus
2 ghor-clan rampager
4 domri rade
2 putrefy
side board
3 rakdos's return 3 golgari charm
2 underworld connections 3 hero's downfall
2 arbor colossus 1 xenagos, the reveler
1 garruk, caller of beasts
The reason I did this to the deck is that Reaper is amazing with Domri! Underworld Cerberus works well with lotleth troll also it turns off the whip and thats a bonus. It just works so well with board presence. And the side board is amazing.
Would love a more detailed analysis as to how to SB, especially from your list ConsiderWhy ( I would like to play the more simplified version before splashing more red)
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Boon Satyr is the same way. There is games where you want to use him for his bestow ability to have something like your Elvish Mystic trade up, bestow him on a Witchstalker or Lotleth Troll for a big beater, flash him into play so he is like a haste creature, etc.
That's what I like about this deck, it doesn't necessarily play a very linear strategy. The cards are flexible and have different roles into different matchups/game states.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/pvs-playhouse-aggro-control/
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
I hope this helps a bit.
Splashing a 3rd color seems greedy. You're playing Loleth Troll. If you play him into a removal spell you need GBB. You're playing a number of creatures with double color costs. Most can't even play Mutavault. You're only playing 23-24 mana. Not 26. Your mana will not have moves like Jagger. It will not be smooth like Keith Stone. Good luck playing aggro with a broken curve because, "God, this deck keeps on screwing me with mana!" Standard decks function well following KISS. Follow it.
Don't like losing to mana screw? Don't play three colors.
:symg::symr::symb: Domri Jund
Its pretty much golgari aggro.
5 Swamp
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Mutavault
7 Forest
// Creatures
3 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Boon Satyr
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Experiment One
4 Dreg Mangler
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Desecration Demon
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
Thoughts? Its been playing really fluidly. Beat BG Midrange, WR Aggro, and BR Aggro. Its safe to say this deck can handle aggro decks fairly well.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
I basically like to break down cards into three categories:
How is it against aggro; how is it against midrange; how is it against control? Here is a basic card by card breakdown of my deck choices:
Reaper of the Wilds - Can play the role of being a big blocker; can be an expensive removal spell and a good "Voltron" card; can be a difficult to deal with threat.
Witchstalker - Excellent card at being a blocker; good "Voltron" type card; can be a difficult to deal with threat.
Boon Satyr - Can be a removal spell; "Voltron" piece; provides suprise damage (EOT or "Voltroning").
Varolz, the Scar-Striped - Can be an excellent blocker; "Voltron" enabler; can be a difficult to deal with threat.
Lotleth Troll - Excellent blocker; good creature to "Voltron"; can be a difficult to deal with threat.
Scavenging Ooze - Gains life; can quickly become the biggest creature on the board; cheap, effienct beater.
Elvish Mystic - Trades with X/1 creatures; allows us to power out threats faster; allows us to be able to cast more spells per turn.
Whip of Erebos - Gains life; recurs threats.
Hero's Downfall - Clears the path for our creatures; best removal type; takes out Planeswalkers.
Abrupt Decay - Clears the path for our creatures; best removal type; has other relevant targets.
Thoughtseize - Take away their best threat; take away their removal; know their hand.
Gift of Orzhova - Gains life; excellent "Voltron" piece.
Golgari Charm - Sweeper; Regeneration; very relevant targets.
Doom Blade - Cheap, efficient removal.
Duress - Take away removal; take away non-creature threats; take away counterspells.
Pithing Needle - Cheap, efficient answer to multiple card types.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
I could dig witchstalker over mangler, but this deck has a lot of powerful turn 2 plays with mystic. But caryatid is an option. One that I may explore.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
The last list on here was good and had very valid points thumbs up on boon satyr example. I do have thoughtseize but my friend wanted to play Mono black devotion so i let him use them they where in my sideboard and willl be added back as soon as they can lol.
know on a side note I never said that I had mana screw the deck dosnt realy on red that bad, GCR is not even makeing the cut any more and the Cerberus is amazing and domri just dose work witht the deck.Sylvan caryatid also helps alot better utopia tree is better! and can stop agro nicely.
If i ex-plane the manabase I made. The stomping grounds went in for forests aswell as the 2 temples and the blood crypts went in for swamps. Now the mutavaults i agree are greedy but I took the giuldgates out for them cause CITPT lands suck and i only wanted 2 with scry and when the B/g scry land comes out its replaceing the r/g one's! Also you can scavenge on to a mutavault it works really well at beating up control, and mutavault helps win games faster. Trust me i,ve been playing them and thoughtseize sence they came out in the lorwyn set thier good and can both be used in this deck.
dreg mangler is a solid card. A 3/3 haste possibly on turn 2 is pretty huge, don't forget about scavange; he's not useless if they spend the resources to kill him. I can't see a situation where I'd rather have witchstalker over it, at least in the main deck.
I've yet to see a list where caryatid is essential, though it's too useful of a card to rule out completely. Keep in mind that mystic can attack, that makes a difference when you consider scavange and boon satyr.
Witchstalker is better against aggro decks because it shuts their removal off, same in the midrange matchup, and control has to answer it (and they don't have many answers to it) or they lose quickly to it.
Lastly, it is just a superior creature to "Voltron" with.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
Might just replace him with caryatid but I dont think 8 mana dorks is really needed with this deck. Although getting to 4 mana is SUPER important.
Also scavenging Ooze is a pretty good card. Maybe a 2/2 split with him and caryatid is an option.
thoughts on that?
Edit: I dont discount Witchstalker at all. I just like my dmg hastey. If i find room in the board for stalker i'd play him or if mangler just proves to be lacking. Everytime i play mangler im going to imagine it being stalker, and see if the game plays out any different. It very well might. But I do think witchstalker is really good right now.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
But for this deck, I look at Sylvan Caryatid this way:
We play him T2 and we want to T3 into a good 4 drop which is.... Reaper? We don't always want to play Reaper T4 and it's not exactly the biggest beater around. Caryatid is great when you're ramping into Polukranos and DD. Those guys on T3 is awesome.
However, in this deck, we have a bunch of critical 3 drops. What does Caryatid do for this?
Answer: becomes a blocker assuming we hit T3 land for our 3 drop. That's not ramp. That's following the same curve as anyother deck.
That's why you play Elvish Mystic over Caryatid.
If you find yourself wanting to play Caryatid either turn this deck into a 4 drop deck or convince yourself to not run Caryatid; then run more beats or removal.
Match 1: 2-0
Rw Aggro deck that splashes for Chained to the Rocks. Completely crushed him, he has a hard time interacting with my creatures and my removal controls his Boros Reckoners.
Match 2: 0-2
UW Control. First game I have a really bad draw and he has a really good one. Second game I got him down to two life, but he has a handful of Azouris Charms and Celestial Flares, if I just draw one discard spell this game I win, but no luck.
Match 3: 2-1
Mono Red. First game he crushes me, second game I have a bunch of cheap removal and Scavenging Ooze wins me the game. Third game is just the same, this time with creatures to trade with him early game then Scavenging Ooze wins me the game. It's not unusual to have a Scavenging Ooze at about a 10/10 in this matchup. The second game I had a Whip of Erebos in my hand but never really got a chance to cast it.
Match 3: 1-0
Mono Black Devotion. Early game Duress removed his removal, Lotleth Troll and Witchstalker provided beat down, Hero's Downfall took out a Desecration Demon, then a Bestowed Boon Satyr on Lotleth Troll closed the game out. He rage quits.
So yeah, not bad considering this is what I am running right now for my deck, don't laugh:
3x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Witchstalker
4x Boon Satyr
2x Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4x Lotleth Troll
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Elvish Mystic
Spells - 13
1x Whip of Erebos
2x Putrefy
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Read the Bones
1x Golgari Charm
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Doom Blade
1x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Golgari Guildgate
9x Forest
6x Swamp
1x Whip of Erebos
2x Gift of Orzhova
1x Fade into Antiquity
3x Golgari Charm
2x Doom Blade
2x Duress
2x Dark Betrayal
2x Pithing Needle
The fact that I was able to go 3-1 (5-3) with the above deck list says something about this deck archtype. I am currently in the works of getting the last pieces for the deck right now, just haven't been really rushing it to be honest.
The MVP of the night was Witchstalker followed closely by Lotleth Troll. These two guys are just so powerful with all the targeted removal running around.
For the UW matchup, if I had the full compliment of Thoughtseizes and Duress from the sideboard, I like this matchup. Golgari Charm was really good as well (the second game I could have probably won if I had one more Swamp to cast a second Golgari Charm for his Supreme Verdict after he countered the first one or if I had drawn one discard spell to finish him off, oh well).
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710