This is the list i have been testing with for a week or so now and i'm really liking the build so far. It is very strong against U/W/x control. RDW is a little tougher but if you're able to clear the board long enough to keep Jace online you can usually stabilize nicely.
I really like how cyclonic rift is working in the main, it can get a pesky enchantment or creature of the board for a moment, maybe give you a chance to draw into a counter spell. It's a "pseudo" board wipe late game, can hit Blood Baron as well as take Obzedat out for a turn.
I'm still testing Bow of Nylea but so for its doing pretty decent with helping stabilize my health against aggro decks and the +1 counter is nice with each creature we have.
I would like a little help cleaning up my sideboard, i'm just not getting the numbers right and could possibly be missing something completely.
This is the list i have been testing with for a week or so now and i'm really liking the build so far. It is very strong against U/W/x control. RDW is a little tougher but if you're able to clear the board long enough to keep Jace online you can usually stabilize nicely.
I really like how cyclonic rift is working in the main, it can get a pesky enchantment or creature of the board for a moment, maybe give you a chance to draw into a counter spell. It's a "pseudo" board wipe late game, can hit Blood Baron as well as take Obzedat out for a turn.
I'm still testing Bow of Nylea but so for its doing pretty decent with helping stabilize my health against aggro decks and the +1 counter is nice with each creature we have.
I would like a little help cleaning up my sideboard, i'm just not getting the numbers right and could possibly be missing something completely.
Makes me glad people keep giving the Bow a chance, I've tried it since day one and loved it each time.
I like your twist but just one question, one many times is the Rift Overloaded or used only for creatures? Because if its only to bounce creatures you could play Voyage's End instead and get the free Scry 1, also, if you have the Bow main for lifegain why not Read the Bones instead of Divination? But I understand that without the Ooze main it could be hard to rely on a singleton copy of the bow.
Makes me glad people keep giving the Bow a chance, I've tried it since day one and loved it each time.
I like your twist but just one question, one many times is the Rift Overloaded or used only for creatures? Because if its only to bounce creatures you could play Voyage's End instead and get the free Scry 1, also, if you have the Bow main for lifegain why not Read the Bones instead of Divination? But I understand that without the Ooze main it could be hard to rely on a singleton copy of the bow.
Voyage's End only hits creatures. Rift hits any permanent. Big difference at the end of the day. Although, Voyage can target your own creatures, which makes it good in a different way.
This is the list i have been testing with for a week or so now and i'm really liking the build so far. It is very strong against U/W/x control. RDW is a little tougher but if you're able to clear the board long enough to keep Jace online you can usually stabilize nicely.
I really like how cyclonic rift is working in the main, it can get a pesky enchantment or creature of the board for a moment, maybe give you a chance to draw into a counter spell. It's a "pseudo" board wipe late game, can hit Blood Baron as well as take Obzedat out for a turn.
I'm still testing Bow of Nylea but so for its doing pretty decent with helping stabilize my health against aggro decks and the +1 counter is nice with each creature we have.
I would like a little help cleaning up my sideboard, i'm just not getting the numbers right and could possibly be missing something completely.
Golgari Charm doesn't have much to offer your deck. The regenerate is fine, but you dont have a large team anyway.
Thoughtseize would only really be for the control matchup.
Abrupt Decay/Doom Blade/Ratchet Bomb for aggro matchups.
Dispel/Negate for control matches.
Fade into Antiquity to be able to deal with Gods, DSpheres, and various Enchantments/Artifacts.
Ashiok is fine if you want it. Lose Dispel for it.
As for the deck list, it seems good. Definitely more of a late game control than alot of the other mid-late builds floating around. The biggest problem I see in your deck is that against control, you only have 4 spells that can stop Sphinx, and 6 that can stop Aetherling. They likely have 4 and 1-2, which means you have only a bit of wiggle room for using counterspells on anything else (Elspeths, Jace, etc). I guess what I'm saying is, being that your build is built more for late game wins, I think you need a slightly better countermagic suite main board. Maybe cut a Rift for a Psychic Strike. And/or a Divination. Though that might not be a good choice.
So this is what I came up with after reading a lot of other deck lists really attractive to the eyes. I was looking over the article on TCG player and Biefall's list I liked both sides except the article was a midrange deck and I wanted a more control feature so a little mixing...This is what I came up with let me know what you think.
Siding Vs aggro
+2 doom blades
+2 Bow of Nylea
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-3 Duress
I feel like duress is not as needed vs a aggro player sure they can burn but if we can land a bow we can slow the loss of life and I feel that Vraska as a 5 cmc is a bit slower so +2 doom blades can help. I relize chandra is a thing but we have Hero's downfall for Planeswalkers like that.
Siding Vs Control - UW, Esper, Bant Control and any other control deck that relies on Sphinx to win..
+3 negate
+2 notion thief
+2 golgari charm
+2-4 Thoughtseize depending on what version of control you are vsing
The reason we remove abrupt decay is because the other creatures we own probably can dodge most removal other than supreme...abrupt decay would only free a planeswalker which is good but we still have a golgari charm to break them free I relize we have 2 so you have to decide regen creatures or free a planeswalker we also have vraska still in mainboard and she can do work as well. Notion thief just to stop that incredible sphinx for a million thats all I can say stop that draw end their game right on the spot so they draw nothing and you draw a card...at instant speed plus you have a body on the board. Thats all I got please let me know what you guys think its my rough draft.
So this is what I came up with after reading a lot of other deck lists really attractive to the eyes. I was looking over the article on TCG player and Biefall's list I liked both sides except the article was a midrange deck and I wanted a more control feature so a little mixing...This is what I came up with let me know what you think.
Siding Vs aggro
+2 doom blades
+2 Bow of Nylea
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-3 Duress
I feel like duress is not as needed vs a aggro player sure they can burn but if we can land a bow we can slow the loss of life and I feel that Vraska as a 5 cmc is a bit slower so +2 doom blades can help. I relize chandra is a thing but we have Hero's downfall for Planeswalkers like that.
Siding Vs Control - UW, Esper, Bant Control and any other control deck that relies on Sphinx to win..
+3 negate
+2 notion thief
+2 golgari charm
+2-4 Thoughtseize depending on what version of control you are vsing
The reason we remove abrupt decay is because the other creatures we own probably can dodge most removal other than supreme...abrupt decay would only free a planeswalker which is good but we still have a golgari charm to break them free I relize we have 2 so you have to decide regen creatures or free a planeswalker we also have vraska still in mainboard and she can do work as well. Notion thief just to stop that incredible sphinx for a million thats all I can say stop that draw end their game right on the spot so they draw nothing and you draw a card...at instant speed plus you have a body on the board. Thats all I got please let me know what you guys think its my rough draft.
I think your list looks pretty solid! A couple thoughts.
1) Keep in mind that when going for the long game, your list has only 2 cards that can possibly gain you life. Between RTB and shock lands, you will need to conserve your life total. Against quick aggro matchups, this situation will be worsened. My list, I run 3 Ooze MB and I might run a 4th if I owned one, because RDW aggro is serious.
2) The more I've tested, the more that I think Vraska is not a great choice. Her -3 can't hit Gods, the only UW control things she can hit are Planeswalkers (but we have downfall), and D Spheres. Her ultimate is... Awesome, but not reliable. I love Vraska, I just don't see a place for her. Against midrange, she's decent though most mid-range will probably be running Obzedat who she interacts poorly with. I think there are good alternatives to Vraska. Golgari Charm hits pesky enchants (dsohere, whip), can wipe x/1's and gives an option to survive Verdicts. More Putrefy is not bad either as it can destroy Spears, Bidents, Hammers, Bows, and the popular mid-late-range Whips while being creature removal as well. I would consider dropping Vraska as she isn't a great win-con or board dominator.
3) Notion Thief. I worry about siding this in and not having it or not having the mana open for it at the right time. If they successfully Rev, and then you draw this? I don't know. I'm not saying don't run it, but I am saying test it and let us know how it works. Personally, I just want to be able to negate/strike/dissolve it.
4) Ultimate Price. I would change this for a Putrefy immediately. It's just to narrow IMO.
5) Your counts on Reaper/Prognostic Aetherling look good. I'm running 4 Reaper and 1 Sphinx. 2 Aetherlings is good for this deck.
I think your list looks pretty solid! A couple thoughts.
1) Keep in mind that when going for the long game, your list has only 2 cards that can possibly gain you life. Between RTB and shock lands, you will need to conserve your life total. Against quick aggro matchups, this situation will be worsened. My list, I run 3 Ooze MB and I might run a 4th if I owned one, because RDW aggro is serious.
2) The more I've tested, the more that I think Vraska is not a great choice. Her -3 can't hit Gods, the only UW control things she can hit are Planeswalkers (but we have downfall), and D Spheres. Her ultimate is... Awesome, but not reliable. I love Vraska, I just don't see a place for her. Against midrange, she's decent though most mid-range will probably be running Obzedat who she interacts poorly with. I think there are good alternatives to Vraska. Golgari Charm hits pesky enchants (dsohere, whip), can wipe x/1's and gives an option to survive Verdicts. More Putrefy is not bad either as it can destroy Spears, Bidents, Hammers, Bows, and the popular mid-late-range Whips while being creature removal as well. I would consider dropping Vraska as she isn't a great win-con or board dominator.
3) Notion Thief. I worry about siding this in and not having it or not having the mana open for it at the right time. If they successfully Rev, and then you draw this? I don't know. I'm not saying don't run it, but I am saying test it and let us know how it works. Personally, I just want to be able to negate/strike/dissolve it.
4) Ultimate Price. I would change this for a Putrefy immediately. It's just to narrow IMO.
5) Your counts on Reaper/Prognostic Aetherling look good. I'm running 4 Reaper and 1 Sphinx. 2 Aetherlings is good for this deck.
Looks great! Good luck!
Thanks for the post!
As my list is similar you made me think twice about running Vraska or not, she's not stellar against aggro and against Control she doesnt do enough, it will take me 4+ turns to play my assassins IF she doesnt get D. Sphered and IF they dont have a sweeper (or another sphere, which they'll have because they cant target anything else in the deck) I dont think she'll serve a purpose, I might main a Bow or another Ooze against aggro and stuff.
I also agree with you, you'll want to have at least 3 copies of Putrefy in your 75, you want to have an answer against Whip/Hammer/Sphere AND removal, its the most versatile card in the list and will have a target every game.
As my list is similar you made me think twice about running Vraska or not, she's not stellar against aggro and against Control she doesnt do enough, it will take me 4+ turns to play my assassins IF she doesnt get D. Sphered and IF they dont have a sweeper (or another sphere, which they'll have because they cant target anything else in the deck) I dont think she'll serve a purpose, I might main a Bow or another Ooze against aggro and stuff.
I also agree with you, you'll want to have at least 3 copies of Putrefy in your 75, you want to have an answer against Whip/Hammer/Sphere AND removal, its the most versatile card in the list and will have a target every game.
Agreed!
I would also say I'm gonna be sideboarding 2x Fade Into Antiquity. People will be running Gods, and the only way to stop em is to counter it, thought seize it, or Fade it. I want to have an answer in my sideboard to Purphorus shenanigans that will surely show up at local FNM's.
I removed the ultimate price for a 3rd far//away
Well It went ok, I was 2-2 at the end of the night we had a small croud I guess they are gearing for states.
my game 1 went well I won 2-0 I was up against naya mid range the deck that utilizes xenagos, and domri I'm sure everyone knows what 1 im talking about
my game 2 I lost 2-1 went against a Green/White wheenie type of deck that uses fleecemane lion, voice, witchstalker, and thats pretty much all of what I saw I won game 1, he won game 2, and took game 3 because of a lack there of mana when I needed it I found myself getting 2 of my 3 far // away in hand and I never saw black mana for the life of me he just flooded the board and I lost
game 3 I vsed a RDW game 1 went very fast the usual I lost 2-0 game 2 I did not get a green source to save myself he was running a much slower hand and I had items to play that could end his game or slow him down a bit but when you dont get the mana you need on time especially missing drops can cost you the game pretty fast...
My last game I vsed a Esper control type of deck I did not get to use my notion thief so not sure how good he is just yet and prognostic sphinx is def great to have..after that I went 2-2 for the night only winning 1 theros pack.
on a side note I had time to vs one of my friends to play test against a more harder matchup vsing Esper Superfriends, I could not even if i wanted to get ahead vsing his deck w/o sideboard his planeswalkers were Jace, architect of thought, Ashiok, and Elspeth he destroyed me...after sideboard i could only destroy his hand to slow him down i got him to 9 but in the end i ran out of gas and he sphinxed for 11 or more just wiped me out...
also on Vraska she was good vs a jace, or domri. I will not lie vsing esper control really did me in I was blindsided we have removal but they just stack counters upon counters..I have no idea what to adjust to meet the difference possibly adding Dispel instead of notion? I def need help to figure that 1
Did some play testing last night with that brew, though 3 scavenging oozes were not in the main originally, however, after playing against aggro for half of the night I realized this deck is way too slow for the current aggro meta. And even with the oozes main board, it's a bad match up still. Against Mono-red aggro, best I could do was attempt to stabilize but he had too many creatures and I had not enough removal or blockers. Played against a G/B midrange deck, crushed it with little concern. Played against a white weenie deck and went 50/50 for the games. Depended on our opening hands. I need more play testing, but I really feel this deck needs more to do in the early game to not die.
Did some play testing last night with that brew, though 3 scavenging oozes were not in the main originally, however, after playing against aggro for half of the night I realized this deck is way too slow for the current aggro meta. And even with the oozes main board, it's a bad match up still. Against Mono-red aggro, best I could do was attempt to stabilize but he had too many creatures and I had not enough removal or blockers. Played against a G/B midrange deck, crushed it with little concern. Played against a white weenie deck and went 50/50 for the games. Depended on our opening hands. I need more play testing, but I really feel this deck needs more to do in the early game to not die.
When i first started testing i had Read the Bones and thoughtseize mainboard. but was getting destroyed by aggro decks. We are playing 10-12 shocks, 2-3 read the bones and 2-3 thoughtseize, thats a lot of self damage that we cant afford in those aggro games.
i moved thoughtseize to the sideboard and traded read the bones for divination. Im not saying divination is a better draw spell. its worse in the fact that it doesnt scry but its the same speed as RtB so youre not losing anything there, and youre not losing 2 life.
I removed the ultimate price for a 3rd far//away
Well It went ok, I was 2-2 at the end of the night we had a small croud I guess they are gearing for states.
my game 1 went well I won 2-0 I was up against naya mid range the deck that utilizes xenagos, and domri I'm sure everyone knows what 1 im talking about
my game 2 I lost 2-1 went against a Green/White wheenie type of deck that uses fleecemane lion, voice, witchstalker, and thats pretty much all of what I saw I won game 1, he won game 2, and took game 3 because of a lack there of mana when I needed it I found myself getting 2 of my 3 far // away in hand and I never saw black mana for the life of me he just flooded the board and I lost
game 3 I vsed a RDW game 1 went very fast the usual I lost 2-0 game 2 I did not get a green source to save myself he was running a much slower hand and I had items to play that could end his game or slow him down a bit but when you dont get the mana you need on time especially missing drops can cost you the game pretty fast...
My last game I vsed a Esper control type of deck I did not get to use my notion thief so not sure how good he is just yet and prognostic sphinx is def great to have..after that I went 2-2 for the night only winning 1 theros pack.
on a side note I had time to vs one of my friends to play test against a more harder matchup vsing Esper Superfriends, I could not even if i wanted to get ahead vsing his deck w/o sideboard his planeswalkers were Jace, architect of thought, Ashiok, and Elspeth he destroyed me...after sideboard i could only destroy his hand to slow him down i got him to 9 but in the end i ran out of gas and he sphinxed for 11 or more just wiped me out...
also on Vraska she was good vs a jace, or domri. I will not lie vsing esper control really did me in I was blindsided we have removal but they just stack counters upon counters..I have no idea what to adjust to meet the difference possibly adding Dispel instead of notion? I def need help to figure that 1
A couple points on the matchups against aggro and control.
Our worst matchup is against super-fast aggro for 2 reasons:
1) We don't have "sweepers" for 3 for 1 value. They get like 4-6 creatures on the board and we have a Puterfy... Woo.
2) We don't have significant amounts of Lifegain. Ooze is good, but requires a graveyard to effectively gain life. Yes Bow is good, but at a tempo loss of 2cmc per turn... Not a significant source of early life gain.
Against control, we need to nullify their crutches and be aggressive. Creatures, early/mid that beat down will get us there. We only need to not get swept out by verdict and not allow Sphinx to resolve.
Considering these factors is what led me to my current version. I will post it soon after some more testing. But let's talk specific cards to conquer the challenges listed above.
1) Abrupt Decay: Personally, I think this card is a trap. It is a great card, don't get me wrong. But it is confined to the point that it hurts our game plan. It deals with early aggro well... But so do many other cards. Yes it can hit dsphere and Ashiok and Underworld connections, but we have other spells that can answer those. Abrupt drawn late will almost always be a non-factor and that's why it is poor. BUG needs cards that are great early and late, and Abrupt doesn't hit both those criteria. When the opponent drops an Obzedat, trys to resolve Elspeth or drops a Blood Baron or Dragon, Aburpt is NOT what we need to be holding.
2) Far//Away is one of, if not the, best card in the deck. I think this is a minimum 4-of. Early game tempo play, mid game get two creatures off the board, or save our creature from a Verdict... With this card in hand we can deal with Hexproof creatures, blood baron, a pair of Reckoners, save our Reaper, the list goes on. It is essential against killing early aggro, and it helps protect our creatures before Aetherling.
3) Duress: I see this and Thoughtseize as side board cards. Why when they are so good? Because having more counterspells is more important. Sure you might be able to see the Verdict and pull it, or grab the Revelation/Jace. But they might draw one next turn anyway. We need to make sure that they don't resolve. Against aggro decks, they also aren't that great. With Duress, you might hit something, you might not. And spending 2 life on turn 1-2, just to grab their Firefist Striker is not a good play. Without significant lifegain, we cant afford to run thoughtseize MB because there are too many bad matchups for us. We need counterspells more than duress/thoughtseize. Counterspells only miss "uncounterable spells" but those are few. Counterspells hit creatures and don't cost us life. The information gained from looking at the opponent's hand is good, but BUG isn't a deck that needs this. We have a plan with a good set of cards that are nearly impossible to deal with. Maximize our cards and we don't need to "throw them off their game" with hand destruction. We control the board, not their hand.
4) Opportunity/ReadTheBones/Jace/Divination/etc. BUG is NOT the deck that has the best Card Advantage and we shouldn't try to be. We cant afford the life loss from Erebos/Underworld. Revelation decks will generate more CA then us over time. But we can easily win before CA becomes a problem. We stop them from hitting their CA, we beat em on the ground with difficult to remove creatures and we have Aetherling earlier because we run 2 of. We need to limit the amount of CA cards we run because we need to focus on the board. 2-3 Jace with 2-3 CA cards tops. I would say 4 cards main deck between Jace/opportunity/etc. The small amount of midrange CA we get with these, carry us to victory.
5) Sylvan Caryatid/Omenspeaker/Ooze/2-3cmc creatures: We need to be able to apply pressure on the board in the early game by having not only good defense, but also good offense. The reason I don't run Caryatid is because she doesn't pressure aggro potentially killing x/1s, and she doesn't pressure control because to them she is a temporary ramp card they plan to sweep. Early damage against control is essential for us being able to close out against them before late-late game. We don't need to over-commit to the board, but we do need to have some pressure in the early creatures that we play.
6) Golgari Charm: I've talked about this before, but I think this has far more impact in MB than is on the surface to be recognized. It helps in aggro because we can regen our creatures from seemingly terrible situations. It helps against control protecting from sweepers and blowing up DSphere, their best removal spell. It can wipe a board of x/1s, it blows up Whips and Hammers... It does so much so well. But most importantly, the stuff it can do is generally back-breaking. If we build with some early pressure, Control NEEDS to wipe the board and when they do, we have an answer.
7) Reaper Of The Wilds. This card IMO defines what our game plan is. She hits the board pretty early, she pressures control while being untargetable, and stonewalls aggro that can't remove her. We beat control protecting her via her abilities, Far//Away and Charm. We beat aggro by slowing them down via Reaper, and then getting CA and eliminating their threats and using their dead creatures for Lifegain and eventually dropping bombs (Aetherling/Sphinx) that they will lose to. Reaper should be a 4 of in my mind, no hesistation.
A couple points on the matchups against aggro and control.
Our worst matchup is against super-fast aggro for 2 reasons:
1) We don't have "sweepers" for 3 for 1 value. They get like 4-6 creatures on the board and we have a Puterfy... Woo.
2) We don't have significant amounts of Lifegain. Ooze is good, but requires a graveyard to effectively gain life. Yes Bow is good, but at a tempo loss of 2cmc per turn... Not a significant source of early life gain.
Against control, we need to nullify their crutches and be aggressive. Creatures, early/mid that beat down will get us there. We only need to not get swept out by verdict and not allow Sphinx to resolve.
Considering these factors is what led me to my current version. I will post it soon after some more testing. But let's talk specific cards to conquer the challenges listed above.
1) Abrupt Decay: Personally, I think this card is a trap. It is a great card, don't get me wrong. But it is confined to the point that it hurts our game plan. It deals with early aggro well... But so do many other cards. Yes it can hit dsphere and Ashiok and Underworld connections, but we have other spells that can answer those. Abrupt drawn late will almost always be a non-factor and that's why it is poor. BUG needs cards that are great early and late, and Abrupt doesn't hit both those criteria. When the opponent drops an Obzedat, trys to resolve Elspeth or drops a Blood Baron or Dragon, Aburpt is NOT what we need to be holding.
2) Far//Away is one of, if not the, best card in the deck. I think this is a minimum 4-of. Early game tempo play, mid game get two creatures off the board, or save our creature from a Verdict... With this card in hand we can deal with Hexproof creatures, blood baron, a pair of Reckoners, save our Reaper, the list goes on. It is essential against killing early aggro, and it helps protect our creatures before Aetherling.
3) Duress: I see this and Thoughtseize as side board cards. Why when they are so good? Because having more counterspells is more important. Sure you might be able to see the Verdict and pull it, or grab the Revelation/Jace. But they might draw one next turn anyway. We need to make sure that they don't resolve. Against aggro decks, they also aren't that great. With Duress, you might hit something, you might not. And spending 2 life on turn 1-2, just to grab their Firefist Striker is not a good play. Without significant lifegain, we cant afford to run thoughtseize MB because there are too many bad matchups for us. We need counterspells more than duress/thoughtseize. Counterspells only miss "uncounterable spells" but those are few. Counterspells hit creatures and don't cost us life. The information gained from looking at the opponent's hand is good, but BUG isn't a deck that needs this. We have a plan with a good set of cards that are nearly impossible to deal with. Maximize our cards and we don't need to "throw them off their game" with hand destruction. We control the board, not their hand.
4) Opportunity/ReadTheBones/Jace/Divination/etc. BUG is NOT the deck that has the best Card Advantage and we shouldn't try to be. We cant afford the life loss from Erebos/Underworld. Revelation decks will generate more CA then us over time. But we can easily win before CA becomes a problem. We stop them from hitting their CA, we beat em on the ground with difficult to remove creatures and we have Aetherling earlier because we run 2 of. We need to limit the amount of CA cards we run because we need to focus on the board. 2-3 Jace with 2-3 CA cards tops. I would say 4 cards main deck between Jace/opportunity/etc. The small amount of midrange CA we get with these, carry us to victory.
5) Sylvan Caryatid/Omenspeaker/Ooze/2-3cmc creatures: We need to be able to apply pressure on the board in the early game by having not only good defense, but also good offense. The reason I don't run Caryatid is because she doesn't pressure aggro potentially killing x/1s, and she doesn't pressure control because to them she is a temporary ramp card they plan to sweep. Early damage against control is essential for us being able to close out against them before late-late game. We don't need to over-commit to the board, but we do need to have some pressure in the early creatures that we play.
6) Golgari Charm: I've talked about this before, but I think this has far more impact in MB than is on the surface to be recognized. It helps in aggro because we can regen our creatures from seemingly terrible situations. It helps against control protecting from sweepers and blowing up DSphere, their best removal spell. It can wipe a board of x/1s, it blows up Whips and Hammers... It does so much so well. But most importantly, the stuff it can do is generally back-breaking. If we build with some early pressure, Control NEEDS to wipe the board and when they do, we have an answer.
7) Reaper Of The Wilds. This card IMO defines what our game plan is. She hits the board pretty early, she pressures control while being untargetable, and stonewalls aggro that can't remove her. We beat control protecting her via her abilities, Far//Away and Charm. We beat aggro by slowing them down via Reaper, and then getting CA and eliminating their threats and using their dead creatures for Lifegain and eventually dropping bombs (Aetherling/Sphinx) that they will lose to. Reaper should be a 4 of in my mind, no hesistation.
I 100% agree with this. I just did a reworking of my list last night and it is looking a lot better. I think we need to refocus on our game plan. There were some cards that got moved to the sideboard and maybe even getting cut altogether that I realized were in the list more because I wanted to play them, then cards that were better for the deck. I deen trying to keep my list as much of a control feel as possible but it's not really there, even more so then some of these lists running 14+ creatures.
I 100% agree with this. I just did a reworking of my list last night and it is looking a lot better. I think we need to refocus on our game plan. There were some cards that got moved to the sideboard and maybe even getting cut altogether that I realized were in the list more because I wanted to play them, then cards that were better for the deck. I deen trying to keep my list as much of a control feel as possible but it's not really there, even more so then some of these lists running 14+ creatures.
I think a 100% control deck could be possible in BUG, but it would need to be FAR different from where most of these decks are atm. And even then, until there is a black sweeper, I don't think it would "out-control" the UW master control deck.
Hey did anyone else see the Prime Speaker BUG deck that got a feature match for SCG Cleveland today? If so did you catch the decklist?
It looked pretty interesting but I didnt get a chance to watch the whole match :/
biefall im interested to see your list as ive kinda gone a more midrange route. im not so sure bug has the tools just yet to be a complete control deck
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Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
Ended up X-1-1, ALL my matches were against control (4 UW, 2 Esper, 1 American control).
Short comments: Miscutter Hydra won me EVERY GAME, hands down the best card in the 75 if your meta is ruled by control (specially because the SB contains 12 cards against the control matchup, this list makes it nigh unwinnable for them). The Sphinx didnt shined in any game, as it always ate a Far//Away or Verdict, so if you want to improve your aggro matchup, I recommend you switch these guys out MB for something else that can fight it efficiently as we dont have to worry about control anymore.
I'll write up a tournament report tomorrow, but I will try to contact a mod too because the TO hasnt posted and I would like to update list variants and tournament reports.
Thanks Biefall! I will def look over your list and do a few changes to mine I have only 2 misscutters but they should work nicely. Nice job ill be in NH for states in the morning
Ended up X-1-1, ALL my matches were against control (4 UW, 2 Esper, 1 American control).
Short comments: Miscutter Hydra won me EVERY GAME, hands down the best card in the 75 if your meta is ruled by control (specially because the SB contains 12 cards against the control matchup, this list makes it nigh unwinnable for them). The Sphinx didnt shined in any game, as it always ate a Far//Away or Verdict, so if you want to improve your aggro matchup, I recommend you switch these guys out MB for something else that can fight it efficiently as we dont have to worry about control anymore.
I'll write up a tournament report tomorrow, but I will try to contact a mod too because the TO hasnt posted and I would like to update list variants and tournament reports.
Congrats! Vary well played. I see you moved the Bow's to the SB. Bringing them in for aggro?
Hey did anyone else see the Prime Speaker BUG deck that got a feature match for SCG Cleveland today? If so did you catch the decklist?
It looked pretty interesting but I didnt get a chance to watch the whole match :/
They didn't roll the deck list. When I get time I'll look up that match again and see what we can make from it. I wouldn't call his deck a control deck though.
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Prognostic Sphinx
2 Ætherling
Instants & Sorceries
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Putrefy
1 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Far // Away
2 Divination
2 Syncopate
2 Essence Scatter
2 Opportunity
2 Psychic Strike
2 Cyclonic Rift
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Vraska the Unseen
Land :
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Watery Grave
3 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Deceit
4 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Duress
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dispel
1 Fade into Antiquity
1 Gaze of Granite
3 Thoughtseize
This is the list i have been testing with for a week or so now and i'm really liking the build so far. It is very strong against U/W/x control. RDW is a little tougher but if you're able to clear the board long enough to keep Jace online you can usually stabilize nicely.
I really like how cyclonic rift is working in the main, it can get a pesky enchantment or creature of the board for a moment, maybe give you a chance to draw into a counter spell. It's a "pseudo" board wipe late game, can hit Blood Baron as well as take Obzedat out for a turn.
I'm still testing Bow of Nylea but so for its doing pretty decent with helping stabilize my health against aggro decks and the +1 counter is nice with each creature we have.
I would like a little help cleaning up my sideboard, i'm just not getting the numbers right and could possibly be missing something completely.
Makes me glad people keep giving the Bow a chance, I've tried it since day one and loved it each time.
I like your twist but just one question, one many times is the Rift Overloaded or used only for creatures? Because if its only to bounce creatures you could play Voyage's End instead and get the free Scry 1, also, if you have the Bow main for lifegain why not Read the Bones instead of Divination? But I understand that without the Ooze main it could be hard to rely on a singleton copy of the bow.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
Voyage's End only hits creatures. Rift hits any permanent. Big difference at the end of the day. Although, Voyage can target your own creatures, which makes it good in a different way.
I would clean it up like this.
3 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Doom Blade
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dispel
3 Fade into Antiquity
2 Negate
Golgari Charm doesn't have much to offer your deck. The regenerate is fine, but you dont have a large team anyway.
Thoughtseize would only really be for the control matchup.
Abrupt Decay/Doom Blade/Ratchet Bomb for aggro matchups.
Dispel/Negate for control matches.
Fade into Antiquity to be able to deal with Gods, DSpheres, and various Enchantments/Artifacts.
Ashiok is fine if you want it. Lose Dispel for it.
As for the deck list, it seems good. Definitely more of a late game control than alot of the other mid-late builds floating around. The biggest problem I see in your deck is that against control, you only have 4 spells that can stop Sphinx, and 6 that can stop Aetherling. They likely have 4 and 1-2, which means you have only a bit of wiggle room for using counterspells on anything else (Elspeths, Jace, etc). I guess what I'm saying is, being that your build is built more for late game wins, I think you need a slightly better countermagic suite main board. Maybe cut a Rift for a Psychic Strike. And/or a Divination. Though that might not be a good choice.
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Vraska the Unseen
Creatures 12
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Prognostic Sphinx
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Aetherling
Spells 20
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Far // Away
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy
2 Psychic Strike
2 Syncopate
3 Duress
2 Read the Bones
2 Opportunity
1 Ultimate Price
4 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Watery Grave
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Negate
2 Doom Blade
2 Notion Thief
2 Golgari Charm
So this is what I came up with after reading a lot of other deck lists really attractive to the eyes. I was looking over the article on TCG player and Biefall's list I liked both sides except the article was a midrange deck and I wanted a more control feature so a little mixing...This is what I came up with let me know what you think.
Siding Vs aggro
+2 doom blades
+2 Bow of Nylea
-1 Vraska the Unseen
-3 Duress
I feel like duress is not as needed vs a aggro player sure they can burn but if we can land a bow we can slow the loss of life and I feel that Vraska as a 5 cmc is a bit slower so +2 doom blades can help. I relize chandra is a thing but we have Hero's downfall for Planeswalkers like that.
Siding Vs Control - UW, Esper, Bant Control and any other control deck that relies on Sphinx to win..
+3 negate
+2 notion thief
+2 golgari charm
+2-4 Thoughtseize depending on what version of control you are vsing
-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Far // Away
-1 Putrefy
-1 Ultimate Price
-1 Hero's Downfall
-2 Scavenging Ooze
The reason we remove abrupt decay is because the other creatures we own probably can dodge most removal other than supreme...abrupt decay would only free a planeswalker which is good but we still have a golgari charm to break them free I relize we have 2 so you have to decide regen creatures or free a planeswalker we also have vraska still in mainboard and she can do work as well. Notion thief just to stop that incredible sphinx for a million thats all I can say stop that draw end their game right on the spot so they draw nothing and you draw a card...at instant speed plus you have a body on the board. Thats all I got please let me know what you guys think its my rough draft.
I think your list looks pretty solid! A couple thoughts.
1) Keep in mind that when going for the long game, your list has only 2 cards that can possibly gain you life. Between RTB and shock lands, you will need to conserve your life total. Against quick aggro matchups, this situation will be worsened. My list, I run 3 Ooze MB and I might run a 4th if I owned one, because RDW aggro is serious.
2) The more I've tested, the more that I think Vraska is not a great choice. Her -3 can't hit Gods, the only UW control things she can hit are Planeswalkers (but we have downfall), and D Spheres. Her ultimate is... Awesome, but not reliable. I love Vraska, I just don't see a place for her. Against midrange, she's decent though most mid-range will probably be running Obzedat who she interacts poorly with. I think there are good alternatives to Vraska. Golgari Charm hits pesky enchants (dsohere, whip), can wipe x/1's and gives an option to survive Verdicts. More Putrefy is not bad either as it can destroy Spears, Bidents, Hammers, Bows, and the popular mid-late-range Whips while being creature removal as well. I would consider dropping Vraska as she isn't a great win-con or board dominator.
3) Notion Thief. I worry about siding this in and not having it or not having the mana open for it at the right time. If they successfully Rev, and then you draw this? I don't know. I'm not saying don't run it, but I am saying test it and let us know how it works. Personally, I just want to be able to negate/strike/dissolve it.
4) Ultimate Price. I would change this for a Putrefy immediately. It's just to narrow IMO.
5) Your counts on Reaper/Prognostic Aetherling look good. I'm running 4 Reaper and 1 Sphinx. 2 Aetherlings is good for this deck.
Looks great! Good luck!
Thanks for the post!
As my list is similar you made me think twice about running Vraska or not, she's not stellar against aggro and against Control she doesnt do enough, it will take me 4+ turns to play my assassins IF she doesnt get D. Sphered and IF they dont have a sweeper (or another sphere, which they'll have because they cant target anything else in the deck) I dont think she'll serve a purpose, I might main a Bow or another Ooze against aggro and stuff.
I also agree with you, you'll want to have at least 3 copies of Putrefy in your 75, you want to have an answer against Whip/Hammer/Sphere AND removal, its the most versatile card in the list and will have a target every game.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
Agreed!
I would also say I'm gonna be sideboarding 2x Fade Into Antiquity. People will be running Gods, and the only way to stop em is to counter it, thought seize it, or Fade it. I want to have an answer in my sideboard to Purphorus shenanigans that will surely show up at local FNM's.
Well It went ok, I was 2-2 at the end of the night we had a small croud I guess they are gearing for states.
my game 1 went well I won 2-0 I was up against naya mid range the deck that utilizes xenagos, and domri I'm sure everyone knows what 1 im talking about
my game 2 I lost 2-1 went against a Green/White wheenie type of deck that uses fleecemane lion, voice, witchstalker, and thats pretty much all of what I saw I won game 1, he won game 2, and took game 3 because of a lack there of mana when I needed it I found myself getting 2 of my 3 far // away in hand and I never saw black mana for the life of me he just flooded the board and I lost
game 3 I vsed a RDW game 1 went very fast the usual I lost 2-0 game 2 I did not get a green source to save myself he was running a much slower hand and I had items to play that could end his game or slow him down a bit but when you dont get the mana you need on time especially missing drops can cost you the game pretty fast...
My last game I vsed a Esper control type of deck I did not get to use my notion thief so not sure how good he is just yet and prognostic sphinx is def great to have..after that I went 2-2 for the night only winning 1 theros pack.
on a side note I had time to vs one of my friends to play test against a more harder matchup vsing Esper Superfriends, I could not even if i wanted to get ahead vsing his deck w/o sideboard his planeswalkers were Jace, architect of thought, Ashiok, and Elspeth he destroyed me...after sideboard i could only destroy his hand to slow him down i got him to 9 but in the end i ran out of gas and he sphinxed for 11 or more just wiped me out...
also on Vraska she was good vs a jace, or domri. I will not lie vsing esper control really did me in I was blindsided we have removal but they just stack counters upon counters..I have no idea what to adjust to meet the difference possibly adding Dispel instead of notion? I def need help to figure that 1
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Vraska the Unseen
Creatures 12
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Prognostic Sphinx
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Aetherling
Spells 20
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Far // Away
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy
2 Psychic Strike
2 Syncopate
3 Duress
2 Read the Bones
2 Opportunity
4 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Watery Grave
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Negate
2 Doom Blade
2 Notion Thief
2 Golgari Charm
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Breeding Pool
3 Temple of Mastery
3 Watery Grave
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Island
3 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Prognostic Sphinx
2 AEtherling
Spells
2 Essence Scatter
3 Syncopate
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Putrefy
2 Far // Away
1 Opportunity
3 Thoughtseize
2 Read the Bones
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Vraska, the Unseen
Did some play testing last night with that brew, though 3 scavenging oozes were not in the main originally, however, after playing against aggro for half of the night I realized this deck is way too slow for the current aggro meta. And even with the oozes main board, it's a bad match up still. Against Mono-red aggro, best I could do was attempt to stabilize but he had too many creatures and I had not enough removal or blockers. Played against a G/B midrange deck, crushed it with little concern. Played against a white weenie deck and went 50/50 for the games. Depended on our opening hands. I need more play testing, but I really feel this deck needs more to do in the early game to not die.
When i first started testing i had Read the Bones and thoughtseize mainboard. but was getting destroyed by aggro decks. We are playing 10-12 shocks, 2-3 read the bones and 2-3 thoughtseize, thats a lot of self damage that we cant afford in those aggro games.
i moved thoughtseize to the sideboard and traded read the bones for divination. Im not saying divination is a better draw spell. its worse in the fact that it doesnt scry but its the same speed as RtB so youre not losing anything there, and youre not losing 2 life.
A couple points on the matchups against aggro and control.
Our worst matchup is against super-fast aggro for 2 reasons:
1) We don't have "sweepers" for 3 for 1 value. They get like 4-6 creatures on the board and we have a Puterfy... Woo.
2) We don't have significant amounts of Lifegain. Ooze is good, but requires a graveyard to effectively gain life. Yes Bow is good, but at a tempo loss of 2cmc per turn... Not a significant source of early life gain.
Against control, we need to nullify their crutches and be aggressive. Creatures, early/mid that beat down will get us there. We only need to not get swept out by verdict and not allow Sphinx to resolve.
Considering these factors is what led me to my current version. I will post it soon after some more testing. But let's talk specific cards to conquer the challenges listed above.
1) Abrupt Decay: Personally, I think this card is a trap. It is a great card, don't get me wrong. But it is confined to the point that it hurts our game plan. It deals with early aggro well... But so do many other cards. Yes it can hit dsphere and Ashiok and Underworld connections, but we have other spells that can answer those. Abrupt drawn late will almost always be a non-factor and that's why it is poor. BUG needs cards that are great early and late, and Abrupt doesn't hit both those criteria. When the opponent drops an Obzedat, trys to resolve Elspeth or drops a Blood Baron or Dragon, Aburpt is NOT what we need to be holding.
2) Far//Away is one of, if not the, best card in the deck. I think this is a minimum 4-of. Early game tempo play, mid game get two creatures off the board, or save our creature from a Verdict... With this card in hand we can deal with Hexproof creatures, blood baron, a pair of Reckoners, save our Reaper, the list goes on. It is essential against killing early aggro, and it helps protect our creatures before Aetherling.
3) Duress: I see this and Thoughtseize as side board cards. Why when they are so good? Because having more counterspells is more important. Sure you might be able to see the Verdict and pull it, or grab the Revelation/Jace. But they might draw one next turn anyway. We need to make sure that they don't resolve. Against aggro decks, they also aren't that great. With Duress, you might hit something, you might not. And spending 2 life on turn 1-2, just to grab their Firefist Striker is not a good play. Without significant lifegain, we cant afford to run thoughtseize MB because there are too many bad matchups for us. We need counterspells more than duress/thoughtseize. Counterspells only miss "uncounterable spells" but those are few. Counterspells hit creatures and don't cost us life. The information gained from looking at the opponent's hand is good, but BUG isn't a deck that needs this. We have a plan with a good set of cards that are nearly impossible to deal with. Maximize our cards and we don't need to "throw them off their game" with hand destruction. We control the board, not their hand.
4) Opportunity/ReadTheBones/Jace/Divination/etc. BUG is NOT the deck that has the best Card Advantage and we shouldn't try to be. We cant afford the life loss from Erebos/Underworld. Revelation decks will generate more CA then us over time. But we can easily win before CA becomes a problem. We stop them from hitting their CA, we beat em on the ground with difficult to remove creatures and we have Aetherling earlier because we run 2 of. We need to limit the amount of CA cards we run because we need to focus on the board. 2-3 Jace with 2-3 CA cards tops. I would say 4 cards main deck between Jace/opportunity/etc. The small amount of midrange CA we get with these, carry us to victory.
5) Sylvan Caryatid/Omenspeaker/Ooze/2-3cmc creatures: We need to be able to apply pressure on the board in the early game by having not only good defense, but also good offense. The reason I don't run Caryatid is because she doesn't pressure aggro potentially killing x/1s, and she doesn't pressure control because to them she is a temporary ramp card they plan to sweep. Early damage against control is essential for us being able to close out against them before late-late game. We don't need to over-commit to the board, but we do need to have some pressure in the early creatures that we play.
6) Golgari Charm: I've talked about this before, but I think this has far more impact in MB than is on the surface to be recognized. It helps in aggro because we can regen our creatures from seemingly terrible situations. It helps against control protecting from sweepers and blowing up DSphere, their best removal spell. It can wipe a board of x/1s, it blows up Whips and Hammers... It does so much so well. But most importantly, the stuff it can do is generally back-breaking. If we build with some early pressure, Control NEEDS to wipe the board and when they do, we have an answer.
7) Reaper Of The Wilds. This card IMO defines what our game plan is. She hits the board pretty early, she pressures control while being untargetable, and stonewalls aggro that can't remove her. We beat control protecting her via her abilities, Far//Away and Charm. We beat aggro by slowing them down via Reaper, and then getting CA and eliminating their threats and using their dead creatures for Lifegain and eventually dropping bombs (Aetherling/Sphinx) that they will lose to. Reaper should be a 4 of in my mind, no hesistation.
I 100% agree with this. I just did a reworking of my list last night and it is looking a lot better. I think we need to refocus on our game plan. There were some cards that got moved to the sideboard and maybe even getting cut altogether that I realized were in the list more because I wanted to play them, then cards that were better for the deck. I deen trying to keep my list as much of a control feel as possible but it's not really there, even more so then some of these lists running 14+ creatures.
I think a 100% control deck could be possible in BUG, but it would need to be FAR different from where most of these decks are atm. And even then, until there is a black sweeper, I don't think it would "out-control" the UW master control deck.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
Nice! Can't wait to hear!
It looked pretty interesting but I didnt get a chance to watch the whole match :/
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
Creatures 14
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Prognostic Sphinx
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Aetherling
Spells 19
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Far // Away
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Putrefy
2 Psychic Strike
2 Syncopate
2 Read the Bones
2 Opportunity
1 Golgari Charm
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Temple of Mystery
4 Watery Grave
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Negate
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Gaze of Granite
Ended up X-1-1, ALL my matches were against control (4 UW, 2 Esper, 1 American control).
Short comments: Miscutter Hydra won me EVERY GAME, hands down the best card in the 75 if your meta is ruled by control (specially because the SB contains 12 cards against the control matchup, this list makes it nigh unwinnable for them). The Sphinx didnt shined in any game, as it always ate a Far//Away or Verdict, so if you want to improve your aggro matchup, I recommend you switch these guys out MB for something else that can fight it efficiently as we dont have to worry about control anymore.
I'll write up a tournament report tomorrow, but I will try to contact a mod too because the TO hasnt posted and I would like to update list variants and tournament reports.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
Congrats! Vary well played. I see you moved the Bow's to the SB. Bringing them in for aggro?
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
Creatures 15
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Aetherling
2 Desecration Demon
Spells 18
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Far // Away
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy
3 Psychic Strike
2 Syncopate
2 Opportunity
1 Cyclonic rift
1 Golgari Charm
4 Breeding Pool
3 Forest
2 Island
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Watery Grave
3 Thoughtseize
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Negate
2 Duress
2 misscutter hydra
2 golgari charm
1 gaze of granite
They didn't roll the deck list. When I get time I'll look up that match again and see what we can make from it. I wouldn't call his deck a control deck though.
Lifebane Zombie MD
Scavenging Ooze MD
Experiment One
Boon Saytr
Sylvan Caryatid MD
Polukranos World Eater MD
Reaper Of The Wilds
Prognostic Sphinx
Prime Speaker Zegana MD
Abrupt Decay MD
Far Away
Thoughtseize MD
Hero's Downfall
That's all that we saw from his deck. I marked cards that were in the first game.