Did testing tonight against a RW Boros fast deck and a RB Aggro fast deck. Did pretty well! Things that I've noticed.
1) Prophet is insane if it sticks on the board. Definitely moving to a 3-of in my deck.
2) Did some obscure testing, and Bane Alley Broker was AMAZING once Prophet hit battlefield. Like basically a filter/2mana card draw every turn. I don't know if this is actually a thing, but it was sick interaction.
3) Card draw seems to be the biggest problem I can see with BUG ATM. I think Jace is a must, if not a 3-of. Opportunity/Urban Evo make A LOT of sense, especially if you have a Prophet on the board. Read the Bones would be great, but is TERRIBLE against aggro.
4) Dumbledore Sphinx is a good card. He can stone wall things pretty decent, and although Scry 3 isn't card draw, it's REALLY good.
I'm going to be making some adjustments to my deck for sure.
Against a UW/x control, could Savage Summoning -> Aetherling be a thing?
I don't think it's really necessary.
Last set, U/W/x had the option to either counter a spell, Resto Angel, or think twice during our turn. This allowed them to win without ever really tapping out on their own turn.
If they want to win now, they HAVE to resolve either Aetherling or stick an Elspeth. To make that happen, they HAVE to tap out for Jace, read the bones, or divination so they can draw into it. They can't really just jam counterspells into the main and expect to realistically win against any real aggro deck. Especially with cards like Thoughtseize in the mix.
So this leads into something I want to suggest...
Boon Saytr and Dissolve. I understand having the Double Blue or the Double Green turn 3 in a 3 color deck sounds like a pipe dream, but the mana isn't that terrible and with the Sylvan Caraytid, our fixing isn't that terrible.
These 2 cards allow us the same (Resto or Counter) interaction that previous control decks had that was pretty backbreaking. I think it's a pretty powerful option, but maybe I'm wrong?
On Dissolve: I played it at first but I realized for us it might be better to use Psychic Strike as we dont need extra Scry but we could benefit from the extra mill if we are MB Ooze or Shaman, plus the UB instead of UU makes it easier to cast.
On Dissolve: I played it at first but I realized for us it might be better to use Psychic Strike as we dont need extra Scry but we could benefit from the extra mill if we are MB Ooze or Shaman, plus the UB instead of UU makes it easier to cast.
From my testing the 1UU cost was tough to hit early. Psychic Strike might be the way to go. Fuel for Ooze, potentially can screw up an opponent's scry.
I have to say that Far//Away is really an all-star against early aggro, and it can save a creature from Verdict as well which is relevant.
I'm considering Urban Evolution instead of Read The Bones. I'd rather have the extra draw and mana ramp than paying 2 life. RTB seems awesome, but not unless you've got some serious lifegain. Playing against aggro RTB is the worst to be holding.
On Dissolve: I played it at first but I realized for us it might be better to use Psychic Strike as we dont need extra Scry but we could benefit from the extra mill if we are MB Ooze or Shaman, plus the UB instead of UU makes it easier to cast.
You're right, Psychic Strike seems just way easier here. The point though seems to have made it across. Holding 3 mana to have the option to flash in a creature or counter their spell is a really solid capability for a deck to have. I am going to give this a test run for the next couple days.
CMC is as essential for counterspells as it is for CA. Urban Evolution costs 5, Read the Bones only 3 AND it's easier to cast (2B vs. 3GU). Urban Evo just seems too late-game and the extra land you get is quite unnecessary at that point. If you're running 24+ lands and 4x Sylvan Caryatid, then that may not be that much of a problem. But if you're running anything less, I'd stick with Read the Bones and/or Opportunity, with some Urban Evo in the SB perhaps.
My deck I'm running Omenspeaker and not Caryatid. I may when I get some Caryatids, but I'm not convinced that it's the best play. I'm not necessarily highly impressed by Omenspeaker right now either, and am eyeing Frostburn Weird even though he poops on the BUG flavor by being red. He's better against aggro builds and seems like a decent semi-aggressive two drop against control.
Currently, I'm most concerned about surviving early and fast aggro. Everybody is giddy over Mono-Red burn and fast aggros after UW Control lost to it. We need all the removal and early blockers as possible. And life total is fragile. I don't like Read The Bones, because turn 3-4 when you can cast it to gain the CA you need, you can easily be at 10 life or less because of creature damage/shocklands, doing an additional 2 damage to yourself and leaving you without counter magic up against a Purphoros, God of the Forge/Fanatic Of Mogis. I'd feel better about Divination, but I'm tuning my deck for the aggro matchup and IMO, Urban will be good after I stabilize via Reaper/removal to actually get ahead of the aggro in mana and CA. I found that post-Reaper against aggro, we are kinda waiting, because we can't swing favorably unless we can kill all their things, or have creature advantage. While in stabilize mode waiting to get our answers to win, they can top deck Lightning Strikes/Boros Charms. I feel like against aggro a mid-range CA engine like Jace/Urban/Divination that doesn't reduce our life total is exactly what is needed.
I'm personally less worried about control decks because I think our "mid-range" of Reaper Of The Wilds/Prognostic Sphinx beats control. We don't have to overcommit to the board to do significant damage, so that means dodging Supreme with Simic/Golgari Charms and using the hexproof to handle detention spheres and azorious charms/doom blades/etc. In these cases, Urban can help very significantly against control decks, because we get CA and can get ahead in mana.
The other reason I am playing Urban is because I upped my Prophet Of Kruphix count to 3. That card is sick good, and the biggest reason I want to play BUG. You play Prophet, pass, untap on their turn, counter their thing, they pass, untap, play Urban while they are tapped out, pass, untap with tons of mana and CA. Too good.
Another tip: With the huge resurgence of aggro decks, move all Thoughtseize(f you are running them) to SB, stick to Duress if you are running disruption MB. As Thoughtseize will go SB in all this matchups we better prepare for it in G1, as we have the upper hand against UW, Esper with our pack of removal/counter which is superior than theirs (plus we have more CA and our creature package is anti-spot removal)
Another tip: With the huge resurgence of aggro decks, move all Thoughtseize(f you are running them) to SB, stick to Duress if you are running disruption MB. As Thoughtseize will go SB in all this matchups we better prepare for it in G1, as we have the upper hand against UW, Esper with our pack of removal/counter which is superior than theirs (plus we have more CA and our creature package is anti-spot removal)
I been thinking much along the same lines and is a good tip and frees up room MB. There is more I want to add but at work and will post again when I get home.
I made a few changes to my MD after testing and talking to my LGS owner, who top 8's SCG stuff all the time. I respect his advice.
I'm still sold on the DRS, as he saved me several times by either gaining me 2 life when I needed it, or zapping my opponent for 2. 3 DRS/2 Scooze is the way I see myself playing it Friday.
I took out Abrupt Decay main, as I mainly had them for Ashiok or Domri. We decided that taking them out and adding a hero's downfall will take care of the job. I can always side them in if they are really needed. An extra Jace was added, because he changes the game. Everytime he hit the board, the opponent was never happy, no matter what I was playing against. I'm also adding Golgari Charm SB to save my guys against verdict if necessary. It might make a spot MB, we'll see.
The main change that was made was for the Whip. I believe in this version, it is better than the Bow. Since my finisher is AEtherling, the whip makes him dang near indestructible, since he can exile himself to satisfy the whip and remain in play. The +1/+1 counter the bow gave was nice, but I hardly used it. Maybe on the caryatid to make it a bigger threat as a blocker (with the deathtouch), that is the only part I will likely miss. The lifegain is overridden by the whip, as now everything has lifelink. I don't run Swan Song, so the 2 damage part also is really not used by me. Also, since I am removing things from my graveyard to gain life or make my opponent lose it, I don't use that ability much either.
I made a few changes to my MD after testing and talking to my LGS owner, who top 8's SCG stuff all the time. I respect his advice.
I'm still sold on the DRS, as he saved me several times by either gaining me 2 life when I needed it, or zapping my opponent for 2. 3 DRS/2 Scooze is the way I see myself playing it Friday.
I took out Abrupt Decay main, as I mainly had them for Ashiok or Domri. We decided that taking them out and adding a hero's downfall will take care of the job. I can always side them in if they are really needed. An extra Jace was added, because he changes the game. Everytime he hit the board, the opponent was never happy, no matter what I was playing against. I'm also adding Golgari Charm SB to save my guys against verdict if necessary. It might make a spot MB, we'll see.
The main change that was made was for the Whip. I believe in this version, it is better than the Bow. Since my finisher is AEtherling, the whip makes him dang near indestructible, since he can exile himself to satisfy the whip and remain in play. The +1/+1 counter the bow gave was nice, but I hardly used it. Maybe on the caryatid to make it a bigger threat as a blocker (with the deathtouch), that is the only part I will likely miss. The lifegain is overridden by the whip, as now everything has lifelink. I don't run Swan Song, so the 2 damage part also is really not used by me. Also, since I am removing things from my graveyard to gain life or make my opponent lose it, I don't use that ability much either.
We shall see...
The bow doesn't give Caryatid deathtouch, bow only give attacking creatures deathtouch.
I was going over some of my older lists of my deck and I think it might be time to try doing some retesting now that more and more higher CMC spells are making their ways into peoples lists.
First, Deadbridge Chant. I will start by saying it does suffer from the same down side as Assemble the Legion being that it has no effect till your next turn and if top decked at the wrong time can be a vary bad thing. However, again like Assemble, if left alone it can turn the game around fast. You can think about it as adding a Cantrip to all your spells in a way and might be a sort of CA engine some here are looking for. With the added bonus of maybe sticking a finisher and still having all your mana open.
This brings me to the next one. Plasm Capture, I had turned it down before but before we were more about the Demon which really didn't need it but now with Reaper of the Wilds taking his place in more and more lists it would allow for a T4 counter then T5 Reaper and still have the 2 mana open to enable his hexproof as soon as he hits the table instead of praying he makes it till you untap. The extra mana also goes good with Deadbridge Chant or any of our Planeswalkers so we can play them and still keep plenty of mana open for counters or kills. Of course as well as jumping way ahead and slamming a T5 Aetherling and still having his blink mana.
Going to be retesting these and always open for info or thoughts.
I made a few changes to my MD after testing and talking to my LGS owner, who top 8's SCG stuff all the time. I respect his advice.
I'm still sold on the DRS, as he saved me several times by either gaining me 2 life when I needed it, or zapping my opponent for 2. 3 DRS/2 Scooze is the way I see myself playing it Friday.
I took out Abrupt Decay main, as I mainly had them for Ashiok or Domri. We decided that taking them out and adding a hero's downfall will take care of the job. I can always side them in if they are really needed. An extra Jace was added, because he changes the game. Everytime he hit the board, the opponent was never happy, no matter what I was playing against. I'm also adding Golgari Charm SB to save my guys against verdict if necessary. It might make a spot MB, we'll see.
The main change that was made was for the Whip. I believe in this version, it is better than the Bow. Since my finisher is AEtherling, the whip makes him dang near indestructible, since he can exile himself to satisfy the whip and remain in play. The +1/+1 counter the bow gave was nice, but I hardly used it. Maybe on the caryatid to make it a bigger threat as a blocker (with the deathtouch), that is the only part I will likely miss. The lifegain is overridden by the whip, as now everything has lifelink. I don't run Swan Song, so the 2 damage part also is really not used by me. Also, since I am removing things from my graveyard to gain life or make my opponent lose it, I don't use that ability much either.
We shall see...
This list looks pretty good. Did you do much testing against aggro? It looks like you would do quite well against control decks, but I'd be concerned about quick aggro matchups. Whip's lifelink and reanimate are good. Like really good.
I did a bunch of trading last night and finally got some of the cards I needed to finish out the deck.
I did testing against an Esper control for a few rounds and we went toe to toe. It was great! We didnt side board any games and overall, he did better than my deck simply because he had Blood Barons and Erebos/Heliod that I couldn't deal well with. Blood Baron with pro-black is a thing that seems a bit tough for BUG, as well as Indestructible Gods. Gonna have spend sometime brewing there. Overall VERY happy. This deck definitely has legs!
Things i learned:
1) When I played against him I had Simic Charm main instead of Golgari Charm. Big mistake. He played Whip which I could have blown up. He Verdicted me once while I had a Simic Charm in hand with a Sphinx and Prophet on the table. If I had the Golgari charm instead, I would've won that game. I am now a really strong proponent of Golgari Charm simply because these control decks rely on 2 cards, Sphinx Rev and Verdict. Sphinx we have counter magic, and for Verdict we need Golgari Charm. If you can blow out their crutch plays, that is when we can really win mid-range.
2) Ooze is amazing, and is essential if you aren't playing the Bow, or a Whip as he gives you easy life gain. Because I have Ooze, I'm running MB Psychic Strike and that feels really good together.
3) Doom Blade vs Putrefy. If your opponent has black creatures, Doom Blade is bad. Like, really bad. However, Doom Blade is easier to cast and comes online a turn earlier, which is significant when facing red, green, or white aggro matches. IMO, you need to decide if you want that edge against early aggro or not. Alternatively, Abrupt Decay is an early removal spell that can fit many roles as well. YMMV.
4) Scry lands feel great. Coming into play tapped might mean you are a turn behind curve, but for a mid-late deck like BUG, often they set you up perfectly to not miss land drops or hit the threat/removal on time. Running 4-of for those felt good to me.
5) BUG feels like a mid-rangish, semi-late control/aggro. Removal and low CMC costs enough to beat the extreme fast red-aggro. Superior removal package and creatures to defeat other mid-range. But pure control decks generally are the toughest nut to crack because they have a stronger late-late game. Depending on their implementation, they have a kind of "eventuality" to them that once they turn corner X, they become unstoppable. If the scale is: FAST AGGRO ---- EARLY ---- MIDRANGE ---- MID/LATE ---- LATE, I feel like our time to finish is MID/LATE before control hits that top deck grind. And I feel like we have all the tools to do it. I think the key to beating control is making sure to get a midrange threat, and then beat them protecting that threat. Have the counter for the Sphinx, have the Charm against Supreme, and they will crumble.
Flex Spots still in testing:
Omenspeaker - I'm still on the fence here. I just don't love it, but I feel like the it's a good early drop against aggro and late it helps filter really well. This or Caryatid or Lotleth Troll or Syncopates... I just don't know.
Bane Alley Broker - This is a long shot card, that i wanted to try. So far, she did well for me! She either forces a counter or kill spell, which leaves you open to play bigger threats, or they leave her and you filter/draw. I usually got at least a loot or two and a maybe a draw before she got dealt with. I don't know if she is a serious main deck card, but as I'm running Golgari Charm now main, she gets protected from wipes making her even better. Early game, she can block and filter, and late game with Prophet in play she is a CA machine. I want to test her more over the next weeks while I am trying to pick up 2 Jace Architects who will probably replace her.
Read The Bones - This or Opportunity, Divination, Inspiration or Urban Evolution. I had Urban main deck last night, and I think it is a bit too high in mana cost as you gotta keep mana up for Reaper protection. With life gain in your deck, Scavenging Ooze/Whip/Bow, I think running RTB is better than Divination, but Opportunity might be better than both, though it has the draw back of being late. I'm even considering Inspiration as it is Instant and more of a good mid-range play which IMO is where I'm tuning my BUG deck to shine.
Love how this deck feels, and I love running Prophet.
This list looks pretty good. Did you do much testing against aggro? It looks like you would do quite well against control decks, but I'd be concerned about quick aggro matchups. Whip's lifelink and reanimate are good. Like really good.
I tested against some control, it did very well. Also played against the Rock, Gruul Aggro, and RDW. I got behind in the Rock deck, I couldn't get rid of the Demon, but was able to stabilize and stick an AEtherling for the win. Gruul Aggro was tough, but I was able to counter and take out stuff, then exile with Shaman for damage. The trouble matchup was RDW. Game 1 I was smoked, and since we were testing MD, I didn't side. Game 2 I landed Jace, but that only kept me in it a little longer. I'll need to make a good SB for RDW. I think that's our toughest matchup. I just need to draw the caryatids and syncopates, since they tap out every turn.
I'll be playing the States (California) on Saturday and the general advice is to prepare for UW/Esper and maybe some RDW, here's my try at getting ahead of the meta....wait for it...Mistcutter Hydra!!
Ok ok hear me out on this one!
This is why I think its a superb card that deserves 3 lots.
1.- We are midrange control, we might need a manasink and this thing is basically blue's worst nightmare (pro, cant be countered and HASTE) which is VERY important in this matchup.
2.-The only practical removal UW/Esper have is D. Sphere, Azorius Charm and counters, they dont run ANY other kind of removal except Supreme Verdict.
3.- We are running Far // Away, if they cast Verdict, we could return it to our hand and swing again next turn.
4.- If they dont have Verdict its going to be a 3-5 turn clock depending on how much mana you spend.
5.- Against Control we'll pack our Disruption suite (Duress, Thoughtseize, Counters) so we can deal with sweepers and planeswalkers before they hit the board and the Hydra will take the game as efficiently as Aetherling! you could play it as a 5/5 and start swinging without worrying!
If you're playing Bow of Nylea, you need to be playing Deadbridge Chant. The synergy is absolutely insane and a bad idea to miss out on. Gyre Sage is also a card that pairs well with Bow of Nylea.
Basically, if you're going to be playing Bow of Nylea, you want to be getting as much benefit out of it as you can. It's a great card, but it's even better if you put the right cards alongside it.
That helps my cause for the switch even more! Thank you.
I tested against some control, it did very well. Also played against the Rock, Gruul Aggro, and RDW. I got behind in the Rock deck, I couldn't get rid of the Demon, but was able to stabilize and stick an AEtherling for the win. Gruul Aggro was tough, but I was able to counter and take out stuff, then exile with Shaman for damage. The trouble matchup was RDW. Game 1 I was smoked, and since we were testing MD, I didn't side. Game 2 I landed Jace, but that only kept me in it a little longer. I'll need to make a good SB for RDW. I think that's our toughest matchup. I just need to draw the caryatids and syncopates, since they tap out every turn.
Looking at your list, I would question running 3 Read The Bones. The card is good, and you have lifelink via Whip to gain it back. BUT, holding one or drawing one against an aggro deck is TERRIBLE. In an Esper deck, it gets you deeper to find the turn 4 verdict, but for us, it doesn't do anything helpful.
I would look at reducing or eliminating these from the MB. You generally already have enough CA from your Jace's and Opportunity. I think you'd be better off running 2 more Far//Away (which is a pretty good super-early tempo play or creature kill, and midgame it's both) or 1-3 Doom Blade/Putrefy or
2-3 early creatures (Caryatid, Omenspeaker, Ooze, Frostburn Weird) or some combination of these ideas.
If you're playing Bow of Nylea, you need to be playing Deadbridge Chant. The synergy is absolutely insane and a bad idea to miss out on. Gyre Sage is also a card that pairs well with Bow of Nylea.
Basically, if you're going to be playing Bow of Nylea, you want to be getting as much benefit out of it as you can. It's a great card, but it's even better if you put the right cards alongside it.
That makes sense, but you would want a bit more mill if going this direction, no? Like Grisly Salvage and/or Whip? But in that case, why even be going BUG and not just go GB?
I'll be playing the States (California) on Saturday and the general advice is to prepare for UW/Esper and maybe some RDW, here's my try at getting ahead of the meta....wait for it...Mistcutter Hydra!!
Ok ok hear me out on this one!
This is why I think its a superb card that deserves 3 lots.
1.- We are midrange control, we might need a manasink and this thing is basically blue's worst nightmare (pro, cant be countered and HASTE) which is VERY important in this matchup.
2.-The only practical removal UW/Esper have is D. Sphere, Azorius Charm and counters, they dont run ANY other kind of removal except Supreme Verdict.
3.- We are running Far // Away, if they cast Verdict, we could return it to our hand and swing again next turn.
4.- If they dont have Verdict its going to be a 3-5 turn clock depending on how much mana you spend.
5.- Against Control we'll pack our Disruption suite (Duress, Thoughtseize, Counters) so we can deal with sweepers and planeswalkers before they hit the board and the Hydra will take the game as efficiently as Aetherling! you could play it as a 5/5 and start swinging without worrying!
Definitely not against Mistcutter, it's a good anti-blue card for sure. I picked up a couple actually in a trade yesterday. You thinking SB? Or MD? In place of what?
Definitely not against Mistcutter, it's a good anti-blue card for sure. I picked up a couple actually in a trade yesterday. You thinking SB? Or MD? In place of what?
Definitely SB, as playing it MB should mean to take out Sphinx/Reaper/Aetherling and all of those are better in most of the matchups. This is my current list:
I took out the Lifebane Zombie but I dont know if I'll regret it or not yet, it worked wonders against Dega but I am much more scared of GW/RDW and Control than Dega or Jund.
VS Control:
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Negate
+3 Mistcutter Hydra
- 2 Scavenging Ooze
-3 Reaper of the Wilds
-2 Putrefy
-2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Far // Away
As you can see, we SHOULD have this covered, we keep 7 counters, 6 disruption spells and 7 creatures that will be hard as hell to deal with. My rationale behind taking out the Reaper is that she wont be that useful because we wont have Scry 1, so we better have a solid beater that cant be countered and has haste than her, which needs us to save up 2 mana each turn in case we need protection. We could take out the Caryatids too but I think the ramp against control could give us the initial edge when casting our threats while holding counters.
VS RDW/GW
+2 Bow of Nylea
+2 Doom Blade
+2 Miscutter Hydra
-2 Aetherling
-2 Read the Bones
-2 Opportunity
I cant improve this further as I am not running Deathrite Shaman, but any list that has him should play all the copies available, as we have a ton of removal and he'll inevitably turn the tide with his lifegain. I think if we land the Bow and is past T5, we are going to win, as simple as that as I've experienced it over and over again, as long as you can stabilize the board, the Bow will take the game by itself, if I had more space on my SB I would take out all my beaters and put all the removal in + Bows as we dont need to win, we need to survive. I put the Hydra instead of the Aetherling because waiting till turn 6 for a 4/5 is way worse than waiting for turn 4 for a 3/3 or turn 4 for a 4/4, we dont need a finisher, we need an efficient blocker.
That makes sense, but you would want a bit more mill if going this direction, no? Like Grisly Salvage and/or Whip? But in that case, why even be going BUG and not just go GB?
This depends a lot on what your game plan is.
Blue gives you a lot of options when it comes towards dealing with the control match up, but that's about it. In this deck, the biggest cards that blue offers are Plasm Capture and Jace, Architect of Thought, which, in my opinion, are pretty good cards to consider playing, but may not be enough to consider going 3 colors with this.
The only GBx CREATURE decks I would recommend are Jund or Junk, BUG just doesn't offer any exclusive fatties that are hard to deal with, like Obzedat, Ashen Rider, Blood Baron, Stormbreath Dragon.
Then again, this all depends on how you want to play the deck. If you're wanting to play the deck as more of a control deck as opposed to a midrange deck, then this deck is considerably more powerful because you can run cards like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Far // Away, Vraska the Unseen, Deadbridge Chant, and Ratchet Bomb, which is a very impressive card suite to deal with a lot of the valuable played cards out there.
I opted for a Superfriends-style list with all the Planeswalkers available to BUG. This is my list:
It's not perfect, but this is the kind of deck I would love to run. Right now I'm running UB, but I'm just waiting till I can get some more results before I make my final decision on cards in my 75.
Blue gives you a lot of options when it comes towards dealing with the control match up, but that's about it. In this deck, the biggest cards that blue offers are Plasm Capture and Jace, Architect of Thought, which, in my opinion, are pretty good cards to consider playing, but may not be enough to consider going 3 colors with this.
The only GBx CREATURE decks I would recommend are Jund or Junk, BUG just doesn't offer any exclusive fatties that are hard to deal with, like Obzedat, Ashen Rider, Blood Baron, Stormbreath Dragon.
Then again, this all depends on how you want to play the deck. If you're wanting to play the deck as more of a control deck as opposed to a midrange deck, then this deck is considerably more powerful because you can run cards like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Far // Away, Vraska the Unseen, Deadbridge Chant, and Ratchet Bomb, which is a very impressive card suite to deal with a lot of the valuable played cards out there.
I opted for a Superfriends-style list with all the Planeswalkers available to BUG. This is my list:
It's not perfect, but this is the kind of deck I would love to run. Right now I'm running UB, but I'm just waiting till I can get some more results before I make my final decision on cards in my 75.
I like where you are going with this. It seems like a pretty sweet bunch of stuff. Off the bat I would say you either need more Bow, or Whip or something to get Lifegain. Between shocks, Thoughtseizes and Underworld, you will want some. Especially if you face aggro.
I like where you are going with this. It seems like a pretty sweet bunch of stuff. Off the bat I would say you either need more Bow, or Whip or something to get Lifegain. Between shocks, Thoughtseizes and Underworld, you will want some. Especially if you face aggro.
Definitely. The hardest part about building decks right now for midrange type decks that we can't just go all-out on lifegain because against Control, it's practically useless. On the other hand, against aggro, lifegain is huge, but we don't need to be having the big sweet CA late game engines like Deadbridge Chant or Underworld Connections.
The best thing to do right now is try and find a reasonable middle ground and then adjust according to the changing meta as well as your local meta. You're right, though. I want to make room for another Bow so I can be getting out one every game. I just haven't been able to decide which card to drop. Also, with 10 creatures, Whip of Erebos does't seem like it hits enough to be worthwhile.
I'll be playing the States (California) on Saturday and the general advice is to prepare for UW/Esper and maybe some RDW, here's my try at getting ahead of the meta....wait for it...Mistcutter Hydra!!
Ok ok hear me out on this one!
This is why I think its a superb card that deserves 3 lots.
1.- We are midrange control, we might need a manasink and this thing is basically blue's worst nightmare (pro, cant be countered and HASTE) which is VERY important in this matchup.
2.-The only practical removal UW/Esper have is D. Sphere, Azorius Charm and counters, they dont run ANY other kind of removal except Supreme Verdict.
3.- We are running Far // Away, if they cast Verdict, we could return it to our hand and swing again next turn.
4.- If they dont have Verdict its going to be a 3-5 turn clock depending on how much mana you spend.
5.- Against Control we'll pack our Disruption suite (Duress, Thoughtseize, Counters) so we can deal with sweepers and planeswalkers before they hit the board and the Hydra will take the game as efficiently as Aetherling! you could play it as a 5/5 and start swinging without worrying!
You can't use Far on Mistcutter as it's Pro-Blue. You can Golgari charm it though.
1) Prophet is insane if it sticks on the board. Definitely moving to a 3-of in my deck.
2) Did some obscure testing, and Bane Alley Broker was AMAZING once Prophet hit battlefield. Like basically a filter/2mana card draw every turn. I don't know if this is actually a thing, but it was sick interaction.
3) Card draw seems to be the biggest problem I can see with BUG ATM. I think Jace is a must, if not a 3-of. Opportunity/Urban Evo make A LOT of sense, especially if you have a Prophet on the board. Read the Bones would be great, but is TERRIBLE against aggro.
4) Dumbledore Sphinx is a good card. He can stone wall things pretty decent, and although Scry 3 isn't card draw, it's REALLY good.
I'm going to be making some adjustments to my deck for sure.
I don't think it's really necessary.
Last set, U/W/x had the option to either counter a spell, Resto Angel, or think twice during our turn. This allowed them to win without ever really tapping out on their own turn.
If they want to win now, they HAVE to resolve either Aetherling or stick an Elspeth. To make that happen, they HAVE to tap out for Jace, read the bones, or divination so they can draw into it. They can't really just jam counterspells into the main and expect to realistically win against any real aggro deck. Especially with cards like Thoughtseize in the mix.
So this leads into something I want to suggest...
Boon Saytr and Dissolve. I understand having the Double Blue or the Double Green turn 3 in a 3 color deck sounds like a pipe dream, but the mana isn't that terrible and with the Sylvan Caraytid, our fixing isn't that terrible.
These 2 cards allow us the same (Resto or Counter) interaction that previous control decks had that was pretty backbreaking. I think it's a pretty powerful option, but maybe I'm wrong?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
From my testing the 1UU cost was tough to hit early. Psychic Strike might be the way to go. Fuel for Ooze, potentially can screw up an opponent's scry.
I have to say that Far//Away is really an all-star against early aggro, and it can save a creature from Verdict as well which is relevant.
I'm considering Urban Evolution instead of Read The Bones. I'd rather have the extra draw and mana ramp than paying 2 life. RTB seems awesome, but not unless you've got some serious lifegain. Playing against aggro RTB is the worst to be holding.
You're right, Psychic Strike seems just way easier here. The point though seems to have made it across. Holding 3 mana to have the option to flash in a creature or counter their spell is a really solid capability for a deck to have. I am going to give this a test run for the next couple days.
My deck I'm running Omenspeaker and not Caryatid. I may when I get some Caryatids, but I'm not convinced that it's the best play. I'm not necessarily highly impressed by Omenspeaker right now either, and am eyeing Frostburn Weird even though he poops on the BUG flavor by being red. He's better against aggro builds and seems like a decent semi-aggressive two drop against control.
Currently, I'm most concerned about surviving early and fast aggro. Everybody is giddy over Mono-Red burn and fast aggros after UW Control lost to it. We need all the removal and early blockers as possible. And life total is fragile. I don't like Read The Bones, because turn 3-4 when you can cast it to gain the CA you need, you can easily be at 10 life or less because of creature damage/shocklands, doing an additional 2 damage to yourself and leaving you without counter magic up against a Purphoros, God of the Forge/Fanatic Of Mogis. I'd feel better about Divination, but I'm tuning my deck for the aggro matchup and IMO, Urban will be good after I stabilize via Reaper/removal to actually get ahead of the aggro in mana and CA. I found that post-Reaper against aggro, we are kinda waiting, because we can't swing favorably unless we can kill all their things, or have creature advantage. While in stabilize mode waiting to get our answers to win, they can top deck Lightning Strikes/Boros Charms. I feel like against aggro a mid-range CA engine like Jace/Urban/Divination that doesn't reduce our life total is exactly what is needed.
I'm personally less worried about control decks because I think our "mid-range" of Reaper Of The Wilds/Prognostic Sphinx beats control. We don't have to overcommit to the board to do significant damage, so that means dodging Supreme with Simic/Golgari Charms and using the hexproof to handle detention spheres and azorious charms/doom blades/etc. In these cases, Urban can help very significantly against control decks, because we get CA and can get ahead in mana.
The other reason I am playing Urban is because I upped my Prophet Of Kruphix count to 3. That card is sick good, and the biggest reason I want to play BUG. You play Prophet, pass, untap on their turn, counter their thing, they pass, untap, play Urban while they are tapped out, pass, untap with tons of mana and CA. Too good.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
I been thinking much along the same lines and is a good tip and frees up room MB. There is more I want to add but at work and will post again when I get home.
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Watery Grave
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Temple of Mystery
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Prognostic Sphinx
1 AEtherling
Instants/Sorceries (19)
3 Syncopate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Essence Scatter
2 Dissolve
2 Far // Away
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Read the Bones
1 Opportunity
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
Enchantment/Artifact (2)
2 Whip of Erebos
I made a few changes to my MD after testing and talking to my LGS owner, who top 8's SCG stuff all the time. I respect his advice.
I'm still sold on the DRS, as he saved me several times by either gaining me 2 life when I needed it, or zapping my opponent for 2. 3 DRS/2 Scooze is the way I see myself playing it Friday.
I took out Abrupt Decay main, as I mainly had them for Ashiok or Domri. We decided that taking them out and adding a hero's downfall will take care of the job. I can always side them in if they are really needed. An extra Jace was added, because he changes the game. Everytime he hit the board, the opponent was never happy, no matter what I was playing against. I'm also adding Golgari Charm SB to save my guys against verdict if necessary. It might make a spot MB, we'll see.
The main change that was made was for the Whip. I believe in this version, it is better than the Bow. Since my finisher is AEtherling, the whip makes him dang near indestructible, since he can exile himself to satisfy the whip and remain in play. The +1/+1 counter the bow gave was nice, but I hardly used it. Maybe on the caryatid to make it a bigger threat as a blocker (with the deathtouch), that is the only part I will likely miss. The lifegain is overridden by the whip, as now everything has lifelink. I don't run Swan Song, so the 2 damage part also is really not used by me. Also, since I am removing things from my graveyard to gain life or make my opponent lose it, I don't use that ability much either.
We shall see...
The bow doesn't give Caryatid deathtouch, bow only give attacking creatures deathtouch.
First, Deadbridge Chant. I will start by saying it does suffer from the same down side as Assemble the Legion being that it has no effect till your next turn and if top decked at the wrong time can be a vary bad thing. However, again like Assemble, if left alone it can turn the game around fast. You can think about it as adding a Cantrip to all your spells in a way and might be a sort of CA engine some here are looking for. With the added bonus of maybe sticking a finisher and still having all your mana open.
This brings me to the next one. Plasm Capture, I had turned it down before but before we were more about the Demon which really didn't need it but now with Reaper of the Wilds taking his place in more and more lists it would allow for a T4 counter then T5 Reaper and still have the 2 mana open to enable his hexproof as soon as he hits the table instead of praying he makes it till you untap. The extra mana also goes good with Deadbridge Chant or any of our Planeswalkers so we can play them and still keep plenty of mana open for counters or kills. Of course as well as jumping way ahead and slamming a T5 Aetherling and still having his blink mana.
Going to be retesting these and always open for info or thoughts.
This list looks pretty good. Did you do much testing against aggro? It looks like you would do quite well against control decks, but I'd be concerned about quick aggro matchups. Whip's lifelink and reanimate are good. Like really good.
I did a bunch of trading last night and finally got some of the cards I needed to finish out the deck.
2 Omenspeaker
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Bane Alley Broker
4 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Prognostic Sphinx
3 Prophet of Kruphix
1 AEtherling
Spells:18
4 Doom Blade
2 Golgari Charm
4 Far // Away
4 Psychic Strike
2 Putrefy
2 Read the Bones
3 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Island
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Watery Grave
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Negate
2 Dissolve
2 Putrefy
2 Vraska the Unseen
I did testing against an Esper control for a few rounds and we went toe to toe. It was great! We didnt side board any games and overall, he did better than my deck simply because he had Blood Barons and Erebos/Heliod that I couldn't deal well with. Blood Baron with pro-black is a thing that seems a bit tough for BUG, as well as Indestructible Gods. Gonna have spend sometime brewing there. Overall VERY happy. This deck definitely has legs!
Things i learned:
1) When I played against him I had Simic Charm main instead of Golgari Charm. Big mistake. He played Whip which I could have blown up. He Verdicted me once while I had a Simic Charm in hand with a Sphinx and Prophet on the table. If I had the Golgari charm instead, I would've won that game. I am now a really strong proponent of Golgari Charm simply because these control decks rely on 2 cards, Sphinx Rev and Verdict. Sphinx we have counter magic, and for Verdict we need Golgari Charm. If you can blow out their crutch plays, that is when we can really win mid-range.
2) Ooze is amazing, and is essential if you aren't playing the Bow, or a Whip as he gives you easy life gain. Because I have Ooze, I'm running MB Psychic Strike and that feels really good together.
3) Doom Blade vs Putrefy. If your opponent has black creatures, Doom Blade is bad. Like, really bad. However, Doom Blade is easier to cast and comes online a turn earlier, which is significant when facing red, green, or white aggro matches. IMO, you need to decide if you want that edge against early aggro or not. Alternatively, Abrupt Decay is an early removal spell that can fit many roles as well. YMMV.
4) Scry lands feel great. Coming into play tapped might mean you are a turn behind curve, but for a mid-late deck like BUG, often they set you up perfectly to not miss land drops or hit the threat/removal on time. Running 4-of for those felt good to me.
5) BUG feels like a mid-rangish, semi-late control/aggro. Removal and low CMC costs enough to beat the extreme fast red-aggro. Superior removal package and creatures to defeat other mid-range. But pure control decks generally are the toughest nut to crack because they have a stronger late-late game. Depending on their implementation, they have a kind of "eventuality" to them that once they turn corner X, they become unstoppable. If the scale is: FAST AGGRO ---- EARLY ---- MIDRANGE ---- MID/LATE ---- LATE, I feel like our time to finish is MID/LATE before control hits that top deck grind. And I feel like we have all the tools to do it. I think the key to beating control is making sure to get a midrange threat, and then beat them protecting that threat. Have the counter for the Sphinx, have the Charm against Supreme, and they will crumble.
Flex Spots still in testing:
Omenspeaker - I'm still on the fence here. I just don't love it, but I feel like the it's a good early drop against aggro and late it helps filter really well. This or Caryatid or Lotleth Troll or Syncopates... I just don't know.
Bane Alley Broker - This is a long shot card, that i wanted to try. So far, she did well for me! She either forces a counter or kill spell, which leaves you open to play bigger threats, or they leave her and you filter/draw. I usually got at least a loot or two and a maybe a draw before she got dealt with. I don't know if she is a serious main deck card, but as I'm running Golgari Charm now main, she gets protected from wipes making her even better. Early game, she can block and filter, and late game with Prophet in play she is a CA machine. I want to test her more over the next weeks while I am trying to pick up 2 Jace Architects who will probably replace her.
Read The Bones - This or Opportunity, Divination, Inspiration or Urban Evolution. I had Urban main deck last night, and I think it is a bit too high in mana cost as you gotta keep mana up for Reaper protection. With life gain in your deck, Scavenging Ooze/Whip/Bow, I think running RTB is better than Divination, but Opportunity might be better than both, though it has the draw back of being late. I'm even considering Inspiration as it is Instant and more of a good mid-range play which IMO is where I'm tuning my BUG deck to shine.
Love how this deck feels, and I love running Prophet.
That helps my cause for the switch even more! Thank you.
I tested against some control, it did very well. Also played against the Rock, Gruul Aggro, and RDW. I got behind in the Rock deck, I couldn't get rid of the Demon, but was able to stabilize and stick an AEtherling for the win. Gruul Aggro was tough, but I was able to counter and take out stuff, then exile with Shaman for damage. The trouble matchup was RDW. Game 1 I was smoked, and since we were testing MD, I didn't side. Game 2 I landed Jace, but that only kept me in it a little longer. I'll need to make a good SB for RDW. I think that's our toughest matchup. I just need to draw the caryatids and syncopates, since they tap out every turn.
Ok ok hear me out on this one!
This is why I think its a superb card that deserves 3 lots.
1.- We are midrange control, we might need a manasink and this thing is basically blue's worst nightmare (pro, cant be countered and HASTE) which is VERY important in this matchup.
2.-The only practical removal UW/Esper have is D. Sphere, Azorius Charm and counters, they dont run ANY other kind of removal except Supreme Verdict.
3.- We are running Far // Away, if they cast Verdict, we could return it to our hand and swing again next turn.
4.- If they dont have Verdict its going to be a 3-5 turn clock depending on how much mana you spend.
5.- Against Control we'll pack our Disruption suite (Duress, Thoughtseize, Counters) so we can deal with sweepers and planeswalkers before they hit the board and the Hydra will take the game as efficiently as Aetherling! you could play it as a 5/5 and start swinging without worrying!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
Basically, if you're going to be playing Bow of Nylea, you want to be getting as much benefit out of it as you can. It's a great card, but it's even better if you put the right cards alongside it.
Looking at your list, I would question running 3 Read The Bones. The card is good, and you have lifelink via Whip to gain it back. BUT, holding one or drawing one against an aggro deck is TERRIBLE. In an Esper deck, it gets you deeper to find the turn 4 verdict, but for us, it doesn't do anything helpful.
I would look at reducing or eliminating these from the MB. You generally already have enough CA from your Jace's and Opportunity. I think you'd be better off running 2 more Far//Away (which is a pretty good super-early tempo play or creature kill, and midgame it's both) or 1-3 Doom Blade/Putrefy or
2-3 early creatures (Caryatid, Omenspeaker, Ooze, Frostburn Weird) or some combination of these ideas.
That makes sense, but you would want a bit more mill if going this direction, no? Like Grisly Salvage and/or Whip? But in that case, why even be going BUG and not just go GB?
Definitely not against Mistcutter, it's a good anti-blue card for sure. I picked up a couple actually in a trade yesterday. You thinking SB? Or MD? In place of what?
Definitely SB, as playing it MB should mean to take out Sphinx/Reaper/Aetherling and all of those are better in most of the matchups. This is my current list:
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Vraska the Unseen
Creatures:12
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Prognostic Sphinx
2 AEtherling
Spells:20
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Far // Away
2 Putrefy
2 Psychic Strike
2 Syncopate
3 Duress
2 Read the Bones
2 Opportunity
4 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Mystery
3 Watery Grave
3 Thoughtseize
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Doom Blade
3 Mistcutter Hydra
I took out the Lifebane Zombie but I dont know if I'll regret it or not yet, it worked wonders against Dega but I am much more scared of GW/RDW and Control than Dega or Jund.
VS Control:
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Negate
+3 Mistcutter Hydra
- 2 Scavenging Ooze
-3 Reaper of the Wilds
-2 Putrefy
-2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Far // Away
As you can see, we SHOULD have this covered, we keep 7 counters, 6 disruption spells and 7 creatures that will be hard as hell to deal with. My rationale behind taking out the Reaper is that she wont be that useful because we wont have Scry 1, so we better have a solid beater that cant be countered and has haste than her, which needs us to save up 2 mana each turn in case we need protection. We could take out the Caryatids too but I think the ramp against control could give us the initial edge when casting our threats while holding counters.
VS RDW/GW
+2 Bow of Nylea
+2 Doom Blade
+2 Miscutter Hydra
-2 Aetherling
-2 Read the Bones
-2 Opportunity
I cant improve this further as I am not running Deathrite Shaman, but any list that has him should play all the copies available, as we have a ton of removal and he'll inevitably turn the tide with his lifegain. I think if we land the Bow and is past T5, we are going to win, as simple as that as I've experienced it over and over again, as long as you can stabilize the board, the Bow will take the game by itself, if I had more space on my SB I would take out all my beaters and put all the removal in + Bows as we dont need to win, we need to survive. I put the Hydra instead of the Aetherling because waiting till turn 6 for a 4/5 is way worse than waiting for turn 4 for a 3/3 or turn 4 for a 4/4, we dont need a finisher, we need an efficient blocker.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
This depends a lot on what your game plan is.
Blue gives you a lot of options when it comes towards dealing with the control match up, but that's about it. In this deck, the biggest cards that blue offers are Plasm Capture and Jace, Architect of Thought, which, in my opinion, are pretty good cards to consider playing, but may not be enough to consider going 3 colors with this.
The only GBx CREATURE decks I would recommend are Jund or Junk, BUG just doesn't offer any exclusive fatties that are hard to deal with, like Obzedat, Ashen Rider, Blood Baron, Stormbreath Dragon.
Then again, this all depends on how you want to play the deck. If you're wanting to play the deck as more of a control deck as opposed to a midrange deck, then this deck is considerably more powerful because you can run cards like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Far // Away, Vraska the Unseen, Deadbridge Chant, and Ratchet Bomb, which is a very impressive card suite to deal with a lot of the valuable played cards out there.
I opted for a Superfriends-style list with all the Planeswalkers available to BUG. This is my list:
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Deadbridge Chant
2x Underworld Connections
Artifact (2)
2x Ratchet Bomb
Instant (8)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Far / Away
2x Plasm Capture
2x Hero's Downfall
Planeswalker (7)
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Vraska the Unseen
Creature (10)
2x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Returned Phalanx
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Thoughtseize
2x Urban Evolution
Land (25)
4x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
3x Island
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
2x Temple of Mystery
4x Watery Grave
2x Fade into Antiquity
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Deadbridge Chant
2x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Notion Thief
2x Pithing Needle
2x Psychic Intrusion
3x Tidebinder Mage
It's not perfect, but this is the kind of deck I would love to run. Right now I'm running UB, but I'm just waiting till I can get some more results before I make my final decision on cards in my 75.
I like where you are going with this. It seems like a pretty sweet bunch of stuff. Off the bat I would say you either need more Bow, or Whip or something to get Lifegain. Between shocks, Thoughtseizes and Underworld, you will want some. Especially if you face aggro.
Definitely. The hardest part about building decks right now for midrange type decks that we can't just go all-out on lifegain because against Control, it's practically useless. On the other hand, against aggro, lifegain is huge, but we don't need to be having the big sweet CA late game engines like Deadbridge Chant or Underworld Connections.
The best thing to do right now is try and find a reasonable middle ground and then adjust according to the changing meta as well as your local meta. You're right, though. I want to make room for another Bow so I can be getting out one every game. I just haven't been able to decide which card to drop. Also, with 10 creatures, Whip of Erebos does't seem like it hits enough to be worthwhile.
You can't use Far on Mistcutter as it's Pro-Blue. You can Golgari charm it though.
Thanks!, totally slipped my mind when I was typing it lol, I guess thats gives us a better reason to play the charm
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands