Oblivion Ring,...give benefits against Midrange decks.
I've got some bad news for you...
I like the deck, but I feel like it's going to face some problems. I feel like Banisher Priest is a must somewhere in the 75 without Oblivion Ring in Standard. And even then, 2/2 is fragile in an environment with Shock and Magma Jet, plus there are some big things that it can't hit, like Stormbreath Dragon and Blood Baron. Those will probably see play.
Although I'm sure this deck will do fine vs. aggro. I'm more concerned about its matchup against control now that Rancor and Thalia will be gone. This is especially true if a control deck emerges that utilizes black, because the combination of ThoughtseizeLifebane Zombie seems tailor-made to mess this deck up pretty badly. I'm not the best brewer though, so I'm stumped. Anyone have any more advice for the control matchup? (besides Mistcutter Hydra, of course)
I like the deck, but I feel like it's going to face some problems. I feel like Banisher Priest is a must somewhere in the 75 without Oblivion Ring in Standard. And even then, 2/2 is fragile in an environment with Shock and Magma Jet, plus there are some big things that it can't hit, like Stormbreath Dragon and Blood Baron. Those will probably see play.
Although I'm sure this deck will do fine vs. aggro. I'm more concerned about its matchup against control now that Rancor and Thalia will be gone. This is especially true if a control deck emerges that utilizes black, because the combination of ThoughtseizeLifebane Zombie seems tailor-made to mess this deck up pretty badly. I'm not the best brewer though, so I'm stumped. Anyone have any more advice for the control matchup? (besides Mistcutter Hydra, of course)
The lack of tricks or removal really hurt this deck, cards like stormbreath dragon and blood baron are indeed a total pain to deal with and racing is just the best option. The control matchup depends quite a bit on the configuration but isn't that bad per se since the deck is very resistant to sweepers. You've got stuff like xp1 and voice that can survive them (loxodon smiter in case of anger the gods) and instant fatties to play around them. It really just depends how many threats like baron etc. the format will play. Overall though the almost complete inability to interact with other decks makes it just best to use a fast build, plenty of other lategame plans just trump this deck even if you're doing stuff like populating trostani tokens.
token version isn't worth it because call of the conclave isn't worth it (even if you think it's better than ooze it should just be 1 or 2x at most, since lion and voice are far better). Populate cards just aren't good main, trostani is way too slow and not even reliable against many decks plus he is hard to cast unless you go into many guildgates which make you even slower. Rootborn defense sucks in some matches (rdw and most aggro). From the side both are fine though as rootborn is pretty sweet against control and trostani in the mirror.
Best mirror card is just collective blessing imo an unanswered one practically wins on the spot and it's easy to get to 6 in the mirror (big garruk can be sweet for some versions too). For RDW some mix of unflinching courage / fiendslayer paladins works fine, not sure yet which is better. Sundering growth might actually be fairly useless once most players realize that the only good enchantment is still detention sphere.
Overall lack of removal and no way to deal with flyers still makes me worry this deck will end up being too weak. Glare of heresy is fine for mirrors but obviously can only be played from the side and blood baron and stormbreath dragon just remain virtually impossible to deal with (except very clumsy ways like elspeth). Ajani is pretty good in here though and gives you nice chances to just double strike your way to victory when these annoying threats come.
In the meantime though I think I prefer GWr. I first thought the mana for that would be horrible but it's actually better then here probably. The duals give you 8 red sources without impacting your G/W counts and with some scry lands you can get 11-12 red while still having same number of G/W. The good thing though is that GWr can have reasonable draws without early white or early red. This GW deck just absolutely needs both G and W or your hole hand is typically uncastable while for example mystic + domri and no white is fine for GWr. Paradoxically 3 color mana base feels more stable than 2 because of needing your secondary color less, the scry lands and if you want magma jet.
Most of all red just let's you upgrade some cards and gives you domri which is always sweet in a deck this creature heavy.
@skip430
The token and the ramp deck use Elvish Mystic, a 1-drop. I was talking about the builds I posted.
@everyone
After a lot of play-testing last night and results from two other, frankly better, players using variants of the build, I think both the token and the straight aggro builds are not that good. I think this deck ends up being some kind of mid-range beatdown deck rather than an aggro deck.
Over the course of 17 games against six control decks, I feel confident in saying that the control version and token version almost cannot win. There are certain cards that simply do too much and those decks, despite being "aggressive", are way too slow for a well-designed control deck.
Jace, Architect of Thought - his +1 is a lot of delay. If you can't drop multiple threats that kill him right away he does massive damage mitigation.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa - What exactly does the deck do against this unless you resolve Wurm or hope to trade a Boon Satyr? He evades everything and gains life.
All of these amplify to the real problem: Elspeth, Sun's Champion - That +1 is absolutely brutal and every turn you get a little further away. If you can't kill her or stop her from functioning, the deck lacks a decent answer.
Which brings me to the conclusion that a viable version of this deck is really an mid-range beatdown deck (not control-ish midrange like Jund was.)
It is resilient against control, but it also has some ways of coping with Aggro.
Still, I would like more for coping with aggro. I could see swapping the Spears for a couple of Celestial Flare because Mono-Red kills you turn 3-4 and they can flood the field. I watched 7 games of that last night as well, and where control had better answers to a really aggressive mono-red, GW Aggro just got run over with a quickness, especially with nonsense like:
I did some testing with my red splash build against the Dega/Mythic deck. Blood Baron is a ***** to deal with pre-board... As I am still tweaking my sideboard, I tried some Mizzium Mortars and found them extremely effective against that and Stormbreath Dragon. With those on board, the matchup has finally tilted to my favor at about 65/35 whereas prior to that, it was about 45/55ish... Boros Reckoner is also somewhat problematic but not that bad if you draw Smiter... Boros Charm is incredibly strong, much better than Rootborn Defenses due to its versatility (and mana cost). Overall, it is very satisfactory to pump out a steady stream of of 3/3's and turn them sideways...
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"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
I anticipate that the deck is set up pretty well against Aggro decks, but that it will have some problems against control decks. It will also probably have big trouble against a mono-black control or mid-range -- Thought Seize and Lifebane Zombie will be annoying, Doomblade will be no picnic either.
Against a control deck without black, not sure what to bring in, but Trostani and the Priest probably come out. Maybe Gods Willing and/or Rootborn Defenses.
I feel that my side board skills are pretty weak, the above may be way off the mark. I am just tossing ideas out in hopes that those who are better at side boarding will jump in.
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I anticipate that the deck is set up pretty well against Aggro decks, but that it will have some problems against control decks. It will also probably have big trouble against a mono-black control or mid-range -- Thought Seize and Lifebane Zombie will be annoying, Doomblade will be no picnic either.
Against a control deck without black, not sure what to bring in, but Trostani and the Priest probably come out. Maybe Gods Willing and/or Rootborn Defenses.
I feel that my side board skills are pretty weak, the above may be way off the mark. I am just tossing ideas out in hopes that those who are better at side boarding will jump in.
unflinching courage against black decks is a mistake, imo - they're likely to up the discard/exile cards from hand and removal after the first game. auras from the sideboard are better against decks whose plan is to aggro quicker than you, as they'll be often siding out removal to put more threats in. also it can be useful against the mirror: one historical problem of selesnya decks is the lack of good removal.
Honestly if lifebain zombie is running rampant then this deck probably isn't where you want to be. This is a metagame deck at it's finest chosen to combat hordes of aggressive strategies at the start of the format.
personally I wouldn't worry about lifebain zombie off the bat too much. It's a very niche card that doesn't play defense well, so I'm betting that most smart players won't want to play it in a field of red strategies.
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This is what I'm planning on testing once MODO rotates. I don't see any issues dealing with agro but the control matchup up has me worried enough to splash red for Boros Charm which is a workhorse in that all 3 options are relevant.
What are everyone's thoughts on Angel of Thune vs Kalonian Hydra. I agree with an earlier post that the deck can't run both. So which one has more merit. Each obviously takes the deck in a different direction as far as creature build.
I'm planning on playing the aggro version of this deck when rotation hits. However, I've made it so I'm playing with a white base, using Brave the Elements in the MB. It's SUCH a good card; you protect your guys from Anger of the Gods or any other removal spell for a single mana, AND you can cast it to alpha strike your opponent. Here's the mainboard.
I'm planning on playing the aggro version of this deck when rotation hits. However, I've made it so I'm playing with a white base, using Brave the Elements in the MB. It's SUCH a good card; you protect your guys from Anger of the Gods or any other removal spell for a single mana, AND you can cast it to alpha strike your opponent. Here's the mainboard.
Judge's Familiar could be a card against control to slow them down a turn.
Fiendslayer Paladin seems like it might have a place against black/red decks, especially aggro decks.
Selesnya Charm should be in the 75 somewhere considering everything it can do.
If I were to split them up for the last 4 slots, how would you do it? Or would you run different cards?
I would recommend going lighter on green based on your white:green ratio. First off, I would dump the Guildgates, and then 1 or maybe 2 forests... Judge's Familiar is pretty crappy IMO as the only spells you really need to counteract are the ones that sweep your board (of which the most popular is Supreme Verdict). This is the purpose of having cards like Rootborn Defenses and/or Boros Charm, so you can sidestep and keep it moving. Thumbs up for proper usage of Brave the Elements... It really comes down like Bathe in Light used to in a build that utilizes it properly... Frontline Medic I might have considered playable against Jund and the infamous Bonfire pre-rotation, but the only X spells you are likely to come across now is Sphinx's Revelation, which you will merely slow it down a little. The Medic will actually slow you down by running it and that is a pretty big hindrance IMO... I would say your main should have 4 Selesnya Charm. I personally wouldn't go 3 on the Advents, but I'm sure it has more to do with Brave the Elements so I can see your logic there. I am not sure what reason you would have to run Unflinching Courage in the sideboard though. Is there a specific matchup that this card improves? I have actually asked this specific question about this card to several people thus far and nobody has ever answered it... I can't think of a matchup that this card would be necessary for myself, but perhaps you know something I do not.
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"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
First, thank you for taking the time to review my decklist. I always appreciate help.
The reason I like having two guildgates (it might need to be one) and 7 forest is because though I am a white base, I do need to cast Advent of the Wurm (double green) reliably. Having access to 13 green sources makes that pretty easy. That said, I will test out dropping one forest for another plains based on your recommendation. The guildgates as a two of have not hindered my speed at all so I'm ok with them moving forward. If the meta is more aggressive, I think removing the guildgates is a good call though.
Hear ya Judge's Familiar. Definitely had similar concerns.
Frontline Medic is in my 60 because he's a 3/3 and his battalion ability is good against midrange decks, especially those sporting Boros Reckoner (a huge problem card typically). The curve of this deck is so smooth that you can pretty easily trigger three or more creatures attacking (especially since Voice and Precinct Captain make dudes in some way). In addition, he provides a way to combat Mythic/Dega Midrange's Blood Baron's or Stormbreath Dragons. This is limited testing mind you, but since we are a white base, these two cards are SUCH a problem (especially since Blood Baron gains life). When you have an active Frontline Medic, you can swing into their Blood Baron or Dragon and not lose anyone on your team, allowing you to still push damage through. It's not the best, but outside of the 4 Brave the Elements I'll already be using in that matchup (which might have to be used on removal), it's the only answer I can think of outside of just concession when those cards are played.
I'm surprised no one has given you an answer for Unflinching Courage. I want 4 of them primarily for RDW. The strength of this deck is the consistancy that comes with it's speed, plus we have bigger bodies than most aggressive decks. RDW's strength is it's extremely explosive potential. If they're on the play and they go T1 Cackler, T2 Emissary into Firefist Striker, T3 Dynacharge, that's 14 damage by turn 3. And what happens if they have the nuts and have two BTEs? You need lifegain to offset their aggression and speed. Enter Unflinching Courage. Suit up whatever creature you have out there and start racing them. This works best with Fleecemane Lion since when it has Unflinching Courage, it becomes a 5/5, which is out of Mizzium Mortars range. The scenario below is fairly realistic.
T1 - Cackler (RDW), T1 - Soldier of the Pantheon (W/g)
T2 - Burning Tree + Firefist Striker, no attack. T2 - Fleecemane Lion
T3 - Attack, trigger Firefist targeting Soldier, Dynacharge for 12 damage. (RDW)
T3 - Unflinching Courage targeting Fleecemane Lion. Swing for 5 damage. Life totals are now sitting at 15 to 13 in favor of RDW. RDW player will have 3 cards in hand when their turn begins and W/g will have 4 cards in hand, 5 on their next turn. And you have a 5/5 lifelink, trample.
Unless the RDW player has a way to deal with a 10 point life swing when you attack, you'll win. And if they do, it's typically Boros Reckoner or someone on defense. If you get RDW on the defensive, you're doing something right.
I plan on cutting my spears, maybe Frontline Medic and maybe Advent (4 mana might be too slow against them) to make room for Unflinching Courage and some number of Banisher Priest against RDW.
I'll definitely do some testing with Selesnya Charm though. It's catch all power seems good, especially since it helps you churn out 2 creatures on T4 with the rest of the two drops.
I anticipate that the deck is set up pretty well against Aggro decks, but that it will have some problems against control decks. It will also probably have big trouble against a mono-black control or mid-range -- Thought Seize and Lifebane Zombie will be annoying, Doomblade will be no picnic either.
Against a control deck without black, not sure what to bring in, but Trostani and the Priest probably come out. Maybe Gods Willing and/or Rootborn Defenses.
I feel that my side board skills are pretty weak, the above may be way off the mark. I am just tossing ideas out in hopes that those who are better at side boarding will jump in.
it's more of a mish-mosh of cards for different circumstances more than it is a planned out sb for different matchups, considering the only decks that I really plan on facing is mono red and Ux(x) control.
spear of heliod and selesnya charm come in against opposing mid ranged decks where I need more removal. What I take out for them depends on what cards I feel I can cut for different matchups, but it's generally either scavenging ooze or bow of nylea.
rootborn defenses, heliod, ajani, and glare are all for UWx control decks. glare takes care of opposing heliod, elspeth, assemble, and detention sphere. rootborn defenses is for anti-wrath effects, and heliod/ ajani is another source of continuous gas.
so far I've been sbing like this for most control: -2 trostani, -4 archangel of thune, -2 bow of nylea, -2 banisher priest, +2 glare, +2 ajani, +2 heliod, +3 rootborn defenses, +1 spear of heliod.
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Thanks for the SB plan. That leaves the 4 Unflinching Courage for the speedy decks? Taking out some of the bigger creatures: 2 Trostani and 2 Archangel? Or, maybe all four Archangels?
I played one pre-release event yesterday and gained a new appreciation for Spear of Heliod. The removal option is really strong.
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Thanks for the SB plan. That leaves the 4 Unflinching Courage for the speedy decks? Taking out some of the bigger creatures: 2 Trostani and 2 Archangel? Or, maybe all four Archangels?
I played one pre-release event yesterday and gained a new appreciation for Spear of Heliod. The removal option is really strong.
generally I take out 1 spear and 3 archangel. The spear is generally too slow against decks that want to flood the board with small creatures. I deff don't take out trostani, since once he hits the board you pretty much never have to block again.
yea that's generally what the card is there for. Your creatures will generally be the biggest on the field regardless so the pump doesn't really do much(thought being able to play it on T3, making your voice big enough to attack through a sylvan caryatid is pretty big game), but GW is pretty hard up for removal, so it's pretty outstanding in that regard.
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Wescoe's list will be my starting point, I don't agree with having 12 one drops though, I'd rather cut it down to 10 and have the possibility of a turn 2 smiter.
I'm not really a fan of elvish mystic in this deck. sure he can get you turn 2 smiter or t3 advent, but this deck really doesn't care about ramping. it wants to power out a few early drops and play a protective/reactive strategy over those creatures while playing bigger stuff like advent or populating voice/advent tokens at instant speed. Mystic also doesn't evolve the experiment one. It could simply be beneficial to play 2 dryad militant over the mystic.
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That's a good point, I'll probably swap the Mystics out. But as Wescoe says, that makes Smiter worse.
it does make smiter worse, but in a deck that plays 10 effective 1-drops, you don't need to lean on smiter as hard as in other decks for early aggression.
I also don't like 4 trostani in the sb. feels like overkill, especially for a legendary creature. i would rather run 2 and put other cards like glare of heresy in those spare slots.
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T1 - Cackler (RDW), T1 - Soldier of the Pantheon (W/g)
T2 - Burning Tree + Firefist Striker, no attack. T2 - Fleecemane Lion
T3 - Attack, trigger Firefist targeting Soldier, Dynacharge for 12 damage. (RDW)
T3 - Unflinching Courage targeting Fleecemane Lion. Swing for 5 damage. Life totals are now sitting at 15 to 13 in favor of RDW. RDW player will have 3 cards in hand when their turn begins and W/g will have 4 cards in hand, 5 on their next turn. And you have a 5/5 lifelink, trample.
Well, I see a couple of differences here... Your SotP would gain you a life when BTE hits play, and when they swing in on turn 3, why wouldn't you block the striker with your 3/3? In that scenario, after they attack on turn 3, you would be at 13 life without needing the unflinching courage to get there. Plus, when the next turn comes around, you won't have to deal with Striker negating your SotP and they will have a cackler and a BTE that your SotP can munch on should they desire to attack. Plus, you'll either have dropped another 3/3, VoR, or maybe a 4/4... I have done some testing against RDW and unless they nutnutnut draw, you should be ok. Its like a 70/30 matchup in g/w's favor... It may just be a difference in play styles and I'm sure if I was holding an unflinching courage in hand in that scenario, I would choose the same route you did. But personally, I don't dedicate 25% of my sideboard to a 70/30 matchup...
As far as BBoV and the heavybreather dragon, since I have already splashed into red, Mizzium Mortars gets the call. It works very well against either. As I've previously posted, I like the red splash a lot for the versatility of Boros Charm (plus having a Rootborn Defenses effect in game 1 really improves the game 1 control matchup), plus it allows my deck to support Chained to the Rocks (although, I think this card may be a tad overrated; Glare Of Heresy may be making an appearance in my board soon...) and Destructive Revelry.
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"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
I'm planning on playing the aggro version of this deck when rotation hits. However, I've made it so I'm playing with a white base, using Brave the Elements in the MB. It's SUCH a good card; you protect your guys from Anger of the Gods or any other removal spell for a single mana, AND you can cast it to alpha strike your opponent. Here's the mainboard.
Brave the Elements provides protection from being targeted in this case, not exception. Anger of the Gods does not target as it uses the word "each", so whatever < 4 toughness creature(s) you sought to protect with Brave the Elements will get exiled as a result. That said, you'd still want to keep some number of Rootborn Defenses or Ready/Willing around in either board.
Brave the Elements provides protection from being targeted in this case, not exception. Anger of the Gods does not target as it uses the word "each", so whatever < 4 toughness creature(s) you sought to protect with Brave the Elements will get exiled as a result. That said, you'd still want to keep some number of Rootborn Defenses or Ready/Willing around in either board.
brave the elements can provide protection from red, which will effectively counter anger of the gods, since the cards cannot deal damage to creatures with protection from red, whether it's targeting or not.
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Brave the Elements provides protection from being targeted in this case, not exception. Anger of the Gods does not target as it uses the word "each", so whatever < 4 toughness creature(s) you sought to protect with Brave the Elements will get exiled as a result. That said, you'd still want to keep some number of Rootborn Defenses or Ready/Willing around in either board.
Except that in this case you're wrong. Protection is easy to remember with DEBT. Damage, enchantment, blocking, targeting. Anger may not target, but it does deal damage. You figure the rest out.
brave the elements can provide protection from red, which will effectively counter anger of the gods, since the cards cannot deal damage to creatures with protection from red, whether it's targeting or not.
Highlighted the above in the quote.
Interesting note. Even so, I still feel it important to have one of those cards in either board as Supreme Verdict is still a thing this format.
Also, I'm enjoying the cold responses from one/some of you here. I knew I found such a very welcoming community for this particular game.
Also, I'm enjoying the cold responses from one/some of you here. I knew I found such a very welcoming community for this particular game.
Have some cheese with your whine...
Seriously, this is a competitive portion of the forum and you confused a very basic rule of the game... Besides that, nobody was even nasty about telling you that you were wrong. So quit *****ing please...
Quote from RichardHaro »
That's a good point, I'll probably swap the Mystics out. But as Wescoe says, that makes Smiter worse.
Another good point is that you only listed 2 Elvish Mystic in your list, which makes it quite a bit less likely that you would be able to drop a t2 Smiter... Elvish Mystic is one of those cards where you either run 4 or 0... I would absolutely not run them if playing the aggro version. Ramping into a t3 Advent is generally not that beneficial, especially in a control matchup. Against aggro, its not bad, but also not that necessary as all your dudes should be bigger than theirs already (with the mirror being the exception)...
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"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
I don't always like to post my lists, as there are often less experienced people who want to weigh in on how I'm "doing it wrong", but here is what I've been testing for about a month now. It's been performing really well online, but I don't get to play Standard in paper very often.
The sideboard could probably use a little work to adjust to the new meta, although I am not really sure what I should be worried about. People have said control is not a good match up, but I haven't had too many problems in the games I've played.
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I've got some bad news for you...
I like the deck, but I feel like it's going to face some problems. I feel like Banisher Priest is a must somewhere in the 75 without Oblivion Ring in Standard. And even then, 2/2 is fragile in an environment with Shock and Magma Jet, plus there are some big things that it can't hit, like Stormbreath Dragon and Blood Baron. Those will probably see play.
Although I'm sure this deck will do fine vs. aggro. I'm more concerned about its matchup against control now that Rancor and Thalia will be gone. This is especially true if a control deck emerges that utilizes black, because the combination of Thoughtseize Lifebane Zombie seems tailor-made to mess this deck up pretty badly. I'm not the best brewer though, so I'm stumped. Anyone have any more advice for the control matchup? (besides Mistcutter Hydra, of course)
The lack of tricks or removal really hurt this deck, cards like stormbreath dragon and blood baron are indeed a total pain to deal with and racing is just the best option. The control matchup depends quite a bit on the configuration but isn't that bad per se since the deck is very resistant to sweepers. You've got stuff like xp1 and voice that can survive them (loxodon smiter in case of anger the gods) and instant fatties to play around them. It really just depends how many threats like baron etc. the format will play. Overall though the almost complete inability to interact with other decks makes it just best to use a fast build, plenty of other lategame plans just trump this deck even if you're doing stuff like populating trostani tokens.
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Experiment One
3 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Boon Satyr
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Advent of the Wurm
2 Ajani Goldmane
4 Temple Garden
9 Forest
9 Plains
1 selesnya guildgate
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Sundering Growth
3 Rootborn Defenses
3 Unflinching Courage
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Collective Blessing
token version isn't worth it because call of the conclave isn't worth it (even if you think it's better than ooze it should just be 1 or 2x at most, since lion and voice are far better). Populate cards just aren't good main, trostani is way too slow and not even reliable against many decks plus he is hard to cast unless you go into many guildgates which make you even slower. Rootborn defense sucks in some matches (rdw and most aggro). From the side both are fine though as rootborn is pretty sweet against control and trostani in the mirror.
Best mirror card is just collective blessing imo an unanswered one practically wins on the spot and it's easy to get to 6 in the mirror (big garruk can be sweet for some versions too). For RDW some mix of unflinching courage / fiendslayer paladins works fine, not sure yet which is better. Sundering growth might actually be fairly useless once most players realize that the only good enchantment is still detention sphere.
Overall lack of removal and no way to deal with flyers still makes me worry this deck will end up being too weak. Glare of heresy is fine for mirrors but obviously can only be played from the side and blood baron and stormbreath dragon just remain virtually impossible to deal with (except very clumsy ways like elspeth). Ajani is pretty good in here though and gives you nice chances to just double strike your way to victory when these annoying threats come.
In the meantime though I think I prefer GWr. I first thought the mana for that would be horrible but it's actually better then here probably. The duals give you 8 red sources without impacting your G/W counts and with some scry lands you can get 11-12 red while still having same number of G/W. The good thing though is that GWr can have reasonable draws without early white or early red. This GW deck just absolutely needs both G and W or your hole hand is typically uncastable while for example mystic + domri and no white is fine for GWr. Paradoxically 3 color mana base feels more stable than 2 because of needing your secondary color less, the scry lands and if you want magma jet.
Most of all red just let's you upgrade some cards and gives you domri which is always sweet in a deck this creature heavy.
The token and the ramp deck use Elvish Mystic, a 1-drop. I was talking about the builds I posted.
@everyone
After a lot of play-testing last night and results from two other, frankly better, players using variants of the build, I think both the token and the straight aggro builds are not that good. I think this deck ends up being some kind of mid-range beatdown deck rather than an aggro deck.
Over the course of 17 games against six control decks, I feel confident in saying that the control version and token version almost cannot win. There are certain cards that simply do too much and those decks, despite being "aggressive", are way too slow for a well-designed control deck.
Azorius Charm - being hit with Time Walk is really, really bad.
Supreme Verdict - Obviously bad.
Counter spells - Really bad.
Far // Away - Far is bad, Away is worse.
Celestial Flare - a real problem.
We could fight through that, but then...
Jace, Architect of Thought - his +1 is a lot of delay. If you can't drop multiple threats that kill him right away he does massive damage mitigation.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa - What exactly does the deck do against this unless you resolve Wurm or hope to trade a Boon Satyr? He evades everything and gains life.
All of these amplify to the real problem:
Elspeth, Sun's Champion - That +1 is absolutely brutal and every turn you get a little further away. If you can't kill her or stop her from functioning, the deck lacks a decent answer.
Which brings me to the conclusion that a viable version of this deck is really an mid-range beatdown deck (not control-ish midrange like Jund was.)
4 temple garden
4 selesneya guildgate
8 forest
8 plains
Creatures 27
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
4 Advent of the Wurm
3 Archangel of Thune
4 selesnya Charm
2 Selesnya Keyrune
Planeswalkers 2
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
4 Glare of Heresy
4 Unflinching Courage
2 Heliod, God of the Sun
2 Spear of Heliod
2 Pithing Needle
It is resilient against control, but it also has some ways of coping with Aggro.
Still, I would like more for coping with aggro. I could see swapping the Spears for a couple of Celestial Flare because Mono-Red kills you turn 3-4 and they can flood the field. I watched 7 games of that last night as well, and where control had better answers to a really aggressive mono-red, GW Aggro just got run over with a quickness, especially with nonsense like:
Turn 1: Rakdos Cackler or Legion Loyalist
Turn 2: Burning-Tree Emissay into either Firefist Striker or Madcap Skills. Deal 1-5 damage.
Turn 3: Swing with creatures, Dynacharge overload.
Sylvan Caryatid is really important there because Firefist Striker can't target it and it has a 3 body. Selesnya Keyrune is also really valuable because it can come up after Firefist Striker's trigger and block profitably.
On the good side:
With ramp, Fleecemane Lion becomes a 4/4 with hexproof and indestructible really quickly, at which point it is an absolute beast.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
8 forest
5 plains
4 temple garden
4 selesnya guildgate
2 grove of the guardian
1 nykthos, shrine to nyx
4 elvish mystic
4 voice of resurgence
4 fleecemane lion
3 scavenging ooze
4 loxodon smiter
2 banisher priest
2 trostani, selesnya's voice
4 archangel of thune
4 advent of the wurm
2 selesnya charm
2 bow of nylea
1 spear of heliod
I anticipate that the deck is set up pretty well against Aggro decks, but that it will have some problems against control decks. It will also probably have big trouble against a mono-black control or mid-range -- Thought Seize and Lifebane Zombie will be annoying, Doomblade will be no picnic either.
I'm thinking that against black heavy decks, bringing in Fiendslayer Paladin and Ajani, Caller of the Pride, maybe along with some Unflinching Courage. Probably replacing some Banisher Priest, Trostani, Archangel combination.
Against a control deck without black, not sure what to bring in, but Trostani and the Priest probably come out. Maybe Gods Willing and/or Rootborn Defenses.
For the mirror, maybe some more Banisher Priest and Glare of Heresy.
I feel that my side board skills are pretty weak, the above may be way off the mark. I am just tossing ideas out in hopes that those who are better at side boarding will jump in.
unflinching courage against black decks is a mistake, imo - they're likely to up the discard/exile cards from hand and removal after the first game. auras from the sideboard are better against decks whose plan is to aggro quicker than you, as they'll be often siding out removal to put more threats in. also it can be useful against the mirror: one historical problem of selesnya decks is the lack of good removal.
personally I wouldn't worry about lifebain zombie off the bat too much. It's a very niche card that doesn't play defense well, so I'm betting that most smart players won't want to play it in a field of red strategies.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
10 Forest
4x Stomping Ground
3x Plains
3x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple Garden
Creatures 30
4x Elvish Mystic
3x Fleecemane Lion
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Loxodon Smiter
2x Nylea, God of the Hunt
4x Polukranos, World Eater
3x Kalonian Hydra
Other 6
3x Selesnya Charm
1x Boros Charm
2x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
3x Banisher Priest
3x Advent of the Wurm
2x Primeval Bounty
3x Boros Charm
2x Savage Summoning
2x trostani, selesnya's voice
What are everyone's thoughts on Angel of Thune vs Kalonian Hydra. I agree with an earlier post that the deck can't run both. So which one has more merit. Each obviously takes the deck in a different direction as far as creature build.
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Dryad Militant
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Imposing Sovereign
4 Precinct Captain
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Frontline Medic
3 Advent of the Wurm
3 Brave the Elements
2 Spear of Heliod
Lands (22)
4 Temple Garden
2 Selesnya Guildgate
9 Plains
7 Forest
I know I want Unflinching Courage in the SB as a 4 of, and Banisher Priest and Rootborn Defenses as 3 ofs, (with another Brave the Elements to go to 4 when needed)but the other 4 spots are up for grabs.
Judge's Familiar could be a card against control to slow them down a turn.
Fiendslayer Paladin seems like it might have a place against black/red decks, especially aggro decks.
Selesnya Charm should be in the 75 somewhere considering everything it can do.
If I were to split them up for the last 4 slots, how would you do it? Or would you run different cards?
I would recommend going lighter on green based on your white:green ratio. First off, I would dump the Guildgates, and then 1 or maybe 2 forests... Judge's Familiar is pretty crappy IMO as the only spells you really need to counteract are the ones that sweep your board (of which the most popular is Supreme Verdict). This is the purpose of having cards like Rootborn Defenses and/or Boros Charm, so you can sidestep and keep it moving. Thumbs up for proper usage of Brave the Elements... It really comes down like Bathe in Light used to in a build that utilizes it properly... Frontline Medic I might have considered playable against Jund and the infamous Bonfire pre-rotation, but the only X spells you are likely to come across now is Sphinx's Revelation, which you will merely slow it down a little. The Medic will actually slow you down by running it and that is a pretty big hindrance IMO... I would say your main should have 4 Selesnya Charm. I personally wouldn't go 3 on the Advents, but I'm sure it has more to do with Brave the Elements so I can see your logic there. I am not sure what reason you would have to run Unflinching Courage in the sideboard though. Is there a specific matchup that this card improves? I have actually asked this specific question about this card to several people thus far and nobody has ever answered it... I can't think of a matchup that this card would be necessary for myself, but perhaps you know something I do not.
First, thank you for taking the time to review my decklist. I always appreciate help.
The reason I like having two guildgates (it might need to be one) and 7 forest is because though I am a white base, I do need to cast Advent of the Wurm (double green) reliably. Having access to 13 green sources makes that pretty easy. That said, I will test out dropping one forest for another plains based on your recommendation. The guildgates as a two of have not hindered my speed at all so I'm ok with them moving forward. If the meta is more aggressive, I think removing the guildgates is a good call though.
Hear ya Judge's Familiar. Definitely had similar concerns.
Frontline Medic is in my 60 because he's a 3/3 and his battalion ability is good against midrange decks, especially those sporting Boros Reckoner (a huge problem card typically). The curve of this deck is so smooth that you can pretty easily trigger three or more creatures attacking (especially since Voice and Precinct Captain make dudes in some way). In addition, he provides a way to combat Mythic/Dega Midrange's Blood Baron's or Stormbreath Dragons. This is limited testing mind you, but since we are a white base, these two cards are SUCH a problem (especially since Blood Baron gains life). When you have an active Frontline Medic, you can swing into their Blood Baron or Dragon and not lose anyone on your team, allowing you to still push damage through. It's not the best, but outside of the 4 Brave the Elements I'll already be using in that matchup (which might have to be used on removal), it's the only answer I can think of outside of just concession when those cards are played.
I'm surprised no one has given you an answer for Unflinching Courage. I want 4 of them primarily for RDW. The strength of this deck is the consistancy that comes with it's speed, plus we have bigger bodies than most aggressive decks. RDW's strength is it's extremely explosive potential. If they're on the play and they go T1 Cackler, T2 Emissary into Firefist Striker, T3 Dynacharge, that's 14 damage by turn 3. And what happens if they have the nuts and have two BTEs? You need lifegain to offset their aggression and speed. Enter Unflinching Courage. Suit up whatever creature you have out there and start racing them. This works best with Fleecemane Lion since when it has Unflinching Courage, it becomes a 5/5, which is out of Mizzium Mortars range. The scenario below is fairly realistic.
T1 - Cackler (RDW), T1 - Soldier of the Pantheon (W/g)
T2 - Burning Tree + Firefist Striker, no attack. T2 - Fleecemane Lion
T3 - Attack, trigger Firefist targeting Soldier, Dynacharge for 12 damage. (RDW)
T3 - Unflinching Courage targeting Fleecemane Lion. Swing for 5 damage. Life totals are now sitting at 15 to 13 in favor of RDW. RDW player will have 3 cards in hand when their turn begins and W/g will have 4 cards in hand, 5 on their next turn. And you have a 5/5 lifelink, trample.
Unless the RDW player has a way to deal with a 10 point life swing when you attack, you'll win. And if they do, it's typically Boros Reckoner or someone on defense. If you get RDW on the defensive, you're doing something right.
I plan on cutting my spears, maybe Frontline Medic and maybe Advent (4 mana might be too slow against them) to make room for Unflinching Courage and some number of Banisher Priest against RDW.
I'll definitely do some testing with Selesnya Charm though. It's catch all power seems good, especially since it helps you churn out 2 creatures on T4 with the rest of the two drops.
right now this is what I'm running for the sb:
1 spear of heliod
3 rootborn defenses
2 heliod, god of the sun
4 unflinching courage
2 ajani, caller of the pride
2 glare of heresy
it's more of a mish-mosh of cards for different circumstances more than it is a planned out sb for different matchups, considering the only decks that I really plan on facing is mono red and Ux(x) control.
spear of heliod and selesnya charm come in against opposing mid ranged decks where I need more removal. What I take out for them depends on what cards I feel I can cut for different matchups, but it's generally either scavenging ooze or bow of nylea.
rootborn defenses, heliod, ajani, and glare are all for UWx control decks. glare takes care of opposing heliod, elspeth, assemble, and detention sphere. rootborn defenses is for anti-wrath effects, and heliod/ ajani is another source of continuous gas.
so far I've been sbing like this for most control: -2 trostani, -4 archangel of thune, -2 bow of nylea, -2 banisher priest, +2 glare, +2 ajani, +2 heliod, +3 rootborn defenses, +1 spear of heliod.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I played one pre-release event yesterday and gained a new appreciation for Spear of Heliod. The removal option is really strong.
generally I take out 1 spear and 3 archangel. The spear is generally too slow against decks that want to flood the board with small creatures. I deff don't take out trostani, since once he hits the board you pretty much never have to block again.
yea that's generally what the card is there for. Your creatures will generally be the biggest on the field regardless so the pump doesn't really do much(thought being able to play it on T3, making your voice big enough to attack through a sylvan caryatid is pretty big game), but GW is pretty hard up for removal, so it's pretty outstanding in that regard.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I'm not really a fan of elvish mystic in this deck. sure he can get you turn 2 smiter or t3 advent, but this deck really doesn't care about ramping. it wants to power out a few early drops and play a protective/reactive strategy over those creatures while playing bigger stuff like advent or populating voice/advent tokens at instant speed. Mystic also doesn't evolve the experiment one. It could simply be beneficial to play 2 dryad militant over the mystic.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
it does make smiter worse, but in a deck that plays 10 effective 1-drops, you don't need to lean on smiter as hard as in other decks for early aggression.
I also don't like 4 trostani in the sb. feels like overkill, especially for a legendary creature. i would rather run 2 and put other cards like glare of heresy in those spare slots.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Well, I see a couple of differences here... Your SotP would gain you a life when BTE hits play, and when they swing in on turn 3, why wouldn't you block the striker with your 3/3? In that scenario, after they attack on turn 3, you would be at 13 life without needing the unflinching courage to get there. Plus, when the next turn comes around, you won't have to deal with Striker negating your SotP and they will have a cackler and a BTE that your SotP can munch on should they desire to attack. Plus, you'll either have dropped another 3/3, VoR, or maybe a 4/4... I have done some testing against RDW and unless they nutnutnut draw, you should be ok. Its like a 70/30 matchup in g/w's favor... It may just be a difference in play styles and I'm sure if I was holding an unflinching courage in hand in that scenario, I would choose the same route you did. But personally, I don't dedicate 25% of my sideboard to a 70/30 matchup...
As far as BBoV and the heavybreather dragon, since I have already splashed into red, Mizzium Mortars gets the call. It works very well against either. As I've previously posted, I like the red splash a lot for the versatility of Boros Charm (plus having a Rootborn Defenses effect in game 1 really improves the game 1 control matchup), plus it allows my deck to support Chained to the Rocks (although, I think this card may be a tad overrated; Glare Of Heresy may be making an appearance in my board soon...) and Destructive Revelry.
Brave the Elements provides protection from being targeted in this case, not exception. Anger of the Gods does not target as it uses the word "each", so whatever < 4 toughness creature(s) you sought to protect with Brave the Elements will get exiled as a result. That said, you'd still want to keep some number of Rootborn Defenses or Ready/Willing around in either board.
brave the elements can provide protection from red, which will effectively counter anger of the gods, since the cards cannot deal damage to creatures with protection from red, whether it's targeting or not.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Except that in this case you're wrong. Protection is easy to remember with DEBT. Damage, enchantment, blocking, targeting. Anger may not target, but it does deal damage. You figure the rest out.
Brave the Elements naming Red saves your white creatures from Anger of the gods.
Highlighted the above in the quote.
Interesting note. Even so, I still feel it important to have one of those cards in either board as Supreme Verdict is still a thing this format.
Also, I'm enjoying the cold responses from one/some of you here. I knew I found such a very welcoming community for this particular game.
Have some cheese with your whine...
Seriously, this is a competitive portion of the forum and you confused a very basic rule of the game... Besides that, nobody was even nasty about telling you that you were wrong. So quit *****ing please...
Another good point is that you only listed 2 Elvish Mystic in your list, which makes it quite a bit less likely that you would be able to drop a t2 Smiter... Elvish Mystic is one of those cards where you either run 4 or 0... I would absolutely not run them if playing the aggro version. Ramping into a t3 Advent is generally not that beneficial, especially in a control matchup. Against aggro, its not bad, but also not that necessary as all your dudes should be bigger than theirs already (with the mirror being the exception)...
4x Experiment One
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Scavenging Ooze
2x Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
4x Loxodon Smiter
3x Centaur Healer
2x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Archangel of Thune
4x Advent of the Wurm
3x Selesnya Charm
2x Rootborn Defenses
Land: 24
4x Temple Garden
3x Selesnya Guildgate
9x Forest
8x Plains
3x Sundering Growth
3x Banisher Priest
2x Fiendslayer Paladin
2x Rootborn Defenses
2x Rest in Peace
2x Pacifism
1x Centaur Healer
The sideboard could probably use a little work to adjust to the new meta, although I am not really sure what I should be worried about. People have said control is not a good match up, but I haven't had too many problems in the games I've played.
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