So, in the format right now, what threats have hexproof or protection that make this spell strictly better than any other removal spell in the format right now? Seems as though there are plenty of options to effectively thwart Devour Flesh by adding another creature into the equation... Like Advent of the Wurm, Selesnya Charm, Mutavault, Trostani, Young Pyromancer, are some examples... So is this still one of the best removal spells just because you may be able to kill a Blood Baron with it?
EDIT: In your list, you have 4 TS, 3 LBZ, Gaze of Granite, Ratchet Bomb, Scavenging Ooze, and Mutavault which are all immune to BBoV having pro-black... But, I'm sure your concern is justified.
Quote from Garland Greene aka the Marietta Mangler »
"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
Nope. I said in my opinion Thoughtseize is good, but not 30$ good. That's a tad different from saying: I won't run Thoughtseize because it costs my 30 bucks...
Implication is a 2 way street... I never actually told you that you were stupid or dumb but I must have implied it because thats clearly your interpretation. My interpretation is that having to repetetively reiterate a very basic point to somebody because they are quite ignorantly choosing to ignore it based on their own flawed logic is constructive criticism...
Best of luck with using Thoughtseize... I hope you "see the light".
Thoughtseize is insane. Not playing it seems very odd to me. A T1 Thoughtseize can potentially be crippling to your opponent. People do keep borderline mulligan hands, and stripping that crucial card can get you really far ahead.
It is the best hand disruption spell ever printed, and gives you perfect information.
Why would you not play it?
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I know what it does, what does it DO?
-Michael Jacob
Okay - Let's get one thing out of the way first, I'm not now going to argue with you because I believe you are incorrect or that I believe Thoughtseize to be a bad card, merely that the basis of your argument is flawed and should be ignored by everyone..
I've said it time and time again in these forums. The power of a card isn't necessarily determined by the text written on it, rather, the format in which it exists....
So, you agree that its a good card and all of your rant ends up being a colossal waste of time because you misinterpreted my post to begin with...
For reference, here is the relevant portion:
Quote from Ed. »
Because the card is so good, it is a staple in every format it is legal in...
Lets see, when it came out in Standard, it immediately became a staple in every format. Once it stopped being Standard legal, it stopped being a Standard staple. Coincidentally (It must be, because 99% of competitive MTG players must be wrong...), it remained as a staple in every legal format. Now that it is once again a Standard legal card, it will be a staple in Standard until it rotates... A good card is a good card. I didn't say it was good because the other formats played it, I said that because it is so good, the other formats play it... Please learn how to read properly, it will save all of us a lot of time...
Quote from Ben Delat »
Whether it belongs here in this strategy, in the MB, remains to be seen, I can certainly argue why it shouldn't.
But you didn't...
Quote from Ben Delat »
Don't be so definitive as to shut someone down over a card that is unproven in this format, it's not good for the thread..
Like you said, debate is for the examination of all sides of an item. That user presented one side, I rebutted with the other side. That literally is a debate... Look it up if you don't believe me.
Of course a total spam post like the one you made is also bad for the thread... I mean every single point you made is completely irrelevant to the current format because none of those cards are even legal anymore. Then you go on to say you could argue the merits of a card that actually is legal but you don't do it...
Quote from Garland Greene aka the Marietta Mangler »
"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
You don't have to run lands either, but it sure does help... lol
@Putrefy: about 2 months ago, TS wasn't legal in standard and it was 80-90 bucks. Because the card is so good, it is a staple in every format it is legal in... Surely, the proven results of using this card are clearly obvious enough to warrant inclusion in any strategy that could possibly run it... The fact that it can and will hit any card except land that your opponent could play also makes this a really strong option. It can also save you the hassle of running so many different removal spells and watering down your removal package. Just look at my list; I have 13 cards which will remove some form of permanent or other plus I also have 4 TS and 3 Lifebane Zombie which act as preemptive removal. Your build has 16 with no preemptives... Additionally, you are using badly flawed logic even arguing against TS and using that logic to include subpar cards. You have said it costs 2 life and $30 as cons... It also hits preemptively every single problematic card you can and will face in the entire format. But, I'm sure you're right... In fact, please come and play at my store. I love easy wins. PM me for further info...
Do you have SCG Premium, by chance? If you do, check out an article Reid Duke wrote not too long ago about how and when to properly play Thoughtseize. Moral of the story - it doesn't fit in every deck that has black mana sources.
This is the deck that I will be taking to FNM for the following weeks, and so far It has tested extremely well. Only bad match-ups being B/W Midrange obviously, and sometimes control can be finnicky game one with the dead removal.
Creatures: 20
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Lifebane Zombie
4x Desecration Demon
3x Reaper of the Wilds
I know most people aren't a fan of DRS, but I love the card and it has pulled me through numerous tough patches and I have an attachment to the guy. Really, this is just a generic version of the many decklists that have been posted all throughout the thread. Any comments?
This is the deck that I will be taking to FNM for the following weeks, and so far It has tested extremely well. Only bad match-ups being B/W Midrange obviously, and sometimes control can be finnicky game one with the dead removal.
I know most people aren't a fan of DRS, but I love the card and it has pulled me through numerous tough patches and I have an attachment to the guy. Really, this is just a generic version of the many decklists that have been posted all throughout the thread. Any comments?
(P.S. I don't understand how deck tags work)
You're most of the way there. I tagged it for you. Basically, format it exactly the way you did but before and after you're going to use brackets: [words]
And the words in the brackets will be "DECK" and "/DECK"
Do you have SCG Premium, by chance? If you do, check out an article Reid Duke wrote not too long ago about how and when to properly play Thoughtseize. Moral of the story - it doesn't fit in every deck that has black mana sources.
Negative on the SCG Premium... As far as the moral goes, this thread is titled "The Rock" which has always utilized hand disruption as a form of light control so Thoughtseize should probably go in this style of deck (it does happen to be the best 1 mana discard spell in the entire game)... The how and when to play TS; got it covered already...
@Travee13: Deck tags: there is a button you can use for it up above the text box. Just make sure you select the text of your deck prior to selecting the deck tag... Or you can type deck at the beginning and /deck (surrounded with brackets) at the end which does the same thing... As far as your deck goes, I would recommend adding 4 Thoughtseize to it in the main. This should reduce your dead drops vs. control matchups and it also takes out troublesome critters such as Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Voice of Resurgence, etc... Thoughtseize is simply a magnificent card and it fits flawlessly into this deck, along with many others as well. Whip of Erebos is also a strong card in this deck...
Quote from Garland Greene aka the Marietta Mangler »
"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
Negative on the SCG Premium... As far as the moral goes, this thread is titled "The Rock" which has always utilized hand disruption as a form of light control so Thoughtseize should probably go in this style of deck (it does happen to be the best 1 mana discard spell in the entire game)... The how and when to play TS; got it covered already...
Reasons this is a silly debate:
1. Most of us have Thoughtseize in our lists already (including me)
2. You're right - Rock has historically utilized hand disruption, and there's no reason for us not to
Reasons this is an important debate:
1-Infinity: Running Thoughtseize is not as simple as "run 4, use it on 1st turn." In fact, it's often incorrect to use it on T1. A lot of decks know they'll draw into their T4+ plays, and those are typically the cards that we want to strip. Additionally, it hurts tremendously to Shock an Overgrown Tomb and then do another 2 damage with Thoughtseize, only to look at 7 redundant aggro cards in our opponent's hand. Decks built with redundancy are the bane of hand disruption. This is why it's typically better to get a sense of what your opponent is running before using it, and timing it according to when that deck typically sees/plays the card you fear the most.
Ok so I was test-running TS today. I played it T1, I played it T3 or T4 or T5 or whatever turn. Either the opponents hand was full of threats and I could only eliminate one and shock me for 2 (yay) or I wasn't even able of playing it because my life was spiraling down too fast from their aggro.
Anyone who recommends running 4 TS main has strictly no idea what he's talking about. It may be right for modern where you disrupt combos. But Standard is different. So I will move them back to the sideboard. (I kinda get the feeling you all jump on the hype-train without really playtesting TS yourself. No offense.)
1-Infinity: Running Thoughtseize is not as simple as "run 4, use it on 1st turn." In fact, it's often incorrect to use it on T1. A lot of decks know they'll draw into their T4+ plays, and those are typically the cards that we want to strip. Additionally, it hurts tremendously to Shock an Overgrown Tomb and then do another 2 damage with Thoughtseize, only to look at 7 redundant aggro cards in our opponent's hand. Decks built with redundancy are the bane of hand disruption. This is why it's typically better to get a sense of what your opponent is running before using it, and timing it according to when that deck typically sees/plays the card you fear the most.
Oh look, another one that can't read properly... Which part of, "The how and when to play TS; got it covered already..." did you not understand?
@ Putrefy: Be honest... you had a piss poor attitude towards TS before using it and your judgement was colored...
Quote from Garland Greene aka the Marietta Mangler »
"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
Last time it was in standard it was played in Fairies, a proactive tempo deck with an attrition based game plan, and recently Jund in Modern - A proactive Aggro deck with an attrition based game plan.
Thats a rock deck that ran 4 TS main, and, oh yeah, it top 8'ed Worlds...
In fact, at that worlds, G/B or G/B/x took 5 of the top 8 spots with strategies that are oh so similar to the one I happen to be running also in this thread... Each of those had 4 TS in them...
Serra Angel for instance, used to be a go to win condition, now it's just terrible....
Ever consider its because they have printed better options than Serra and that is why it's now terrible... OTOH, Thoughtseize used to be a Standard staple and now its still just the best 1 mana discard spell ever printed.
Anyway I'm through stnding in your way. If you'd insist on being wrong, then go ahead. I'll be playing MTG, not hair-splitting...
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Quote from Garland Greene aka the Marietta Mangler »
"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
Oh look, another one that can't read properly... Which part of, "The how and when to play TS; got it covered already..." did you not understand?
@ Putrefy: Be honest... you had a piss poor attitude towards TS before using it and your judgement was colored...
Actually when they announced TS to be reprinted in THS I was like: "Oh no, not again...". The more I thought about it though, the more my perspective changed. And I can only relate to my experience with using it and without using it. And my experience is, that TS is not a you must play. Either way, you're biased aswell. I will make no further statement on the topic, because this "discussion" leads to nothing but aggression and hateful posts - not what I'm looking for.
Oh look, another one that can't read properly... Which part of, "The how and when to play TS; got it covered already..." did you not understand?
@ Putrefy: Be honest... you had a piss poor attitude towards TS before using it and your judgement was colored...
I understand it completely. But I also understand that your blind championing of it without actually taking its nuances into account means you don't actually understand the "how and when."
Yep. Biased towards using the best available cards to construct a deck...
Surely, if I am wrong, someone should be able to quantitatively demonstrate that and explain what would be a better option... So far, nothing but weak hair-splitting and some incorrect theories that I am wrong simply because I haven't read some article or my line of reasoning doesn't 100% agree with yours...
So, why can't anyone do this? Shouldn't be that difficult, unless...
I happen to be right on this one...:nod:
Quote from rcwraspy »
I understand it completely. But I also understand that your blind championing of it without actually taking its nuances into account means you don't actually understand the "how and when."
Clearly you do not understand or comprehend my claims. Not to worry, though. I get that your comprehension must be questionable so if you choose to disagree, then go ahead... I'm done trying to convince an ignorantly stubborn horse to drink from the water that I showed you...
Quote from Garland Greene aka the Marietta Mangler »
"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
Can we please stop personally attacking each other over a card. Thank you. There is nothing wrong with saying why you like a card or dislike a card, but it doesn't add to the overall discussion of the actual construction of the deck when you are arguing and personally attacking each other over the reasons for your rationale. Just state your opinion and move on. If you want to discuss it further, then do it privately.
This thread should discuss what cards are working and not working in your testing and why they are testing that way, period.
I don't have much free time to playtest, so I'm wondering if anyone has had a chance to get much in?
Lastly, when is the Primer going to be updated, and please include a fourth card in each row so that they are uniform.
I feel that the card TS rly cant be played just yet till we find a stable way to gain life.
Loosing 2 life per card for one card is alot when you have to face aggro, but i still want to play it just need more support for now ill stick to duress and lifebane.
What would your choices be for cards that gain you life?
Thoughtseize is just like any other 1 CMC discard spell ever. It's awesome early and sucks so hard late game. Especially here because, if behind on life, 2 life is steep for one card.
I think it's prevalence in the Eternal formats have colored it's ego. Yes, it's a fantastic card that can wreck hands and the like, but look at what you're dealing with in terms of just formats as a whole:
Standard in 2013: Slower paced, games are designed to have lots of longevity. Thoughtseize isn't quite like what it used to be like back in Faeries. Faeries was a tempo deck that tried to capitalize on straight attrition and cheap denial spells (Mana Short, various counterspells, etc) that were also creatures. All of your creatures were 2-1s. Having Thoughtseize here was much helpful as, coupled by cheap tempo spells that wrecked opponents. Nowadays, we have to work hard for our creatures to be better and our deck strategies to play out. Not like it was back then.
Modern, Legacy, Vintage: Decks and game plans are faster because the cards/decks are better and more vulnerable to a cheap, catch all discard. Legacy decks are straight attrition decks that are super cheap and each card is a moving part.
This kind of strategy mirrors the decks found in the Eternal Formats. That's why Faeries and more recently UW Delver, were able to capitalize on Standard so well, they were attrition decks that out tempo-ed the big game Standard Decks.
That Rock list from Worlds in 2008?! 2008? THAT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO. ROCK DECKS NOW ARE DIFFERENT FROM ROCK DECKS FIVE YEARS AGO. And remember, that was a time where Standard was FILLED with Faeries. So the only way to attack a tempo-attrition strategy was to combat in one with a faster clock, and a bigger game plan to attack the Big Standard decks at the time.
Legacy and Modern strategies are straight forward, no nonsense, and contain about 85% less derpy bull**** than Standard decks do. All Standard decks have clear backup plans and can shake off discard very nicely.
If you Thoughtseized a Mistbind Clique or a Tarmogoyf five years ago in Standard, it was a good play and very crippling. If you Thoughtseize a player now and see three giant game winning creatures, what are you gonna do? Play another Thoughtseize? Now you wasted two turns, 4 life and they have probably planned on it.
Thoughtseize in 2013 Standard a staple? Doubt it. It ill be around, for sure, but it's not an auto-4 of anymore.
Clearly you do not understand or comprehend my claims. Not to worry, though. I get that your comprehension must be questionable so if you choose to disagree, then go ahead... I'm done trying to convince an ignorantly stubborn horse to drink from the water that I showed you...
Woah there. Let's take it down a notch. I haven't called you names, no need to resort to that.
I do comprehend your "claims." You say that Thoughtseize is the best discard spell ever printed. Other than Hymn to Tourach and maybe a couple other cards here and there, I agree.
You say it was in winning decklists when it was Standard legal. Yep, can't argue there and I'm not trying to. It was in plenty of TEMPO lists.
You say it's an eternal format staple. Yes, your powers of observation are astounding.
But all of this does not add up to it being an auto-include in a RTR-Theros B/g Midrange deck. I really suggest you google "Reid Duke Thoughtseize" and see if you can grab a read of his article for free somewhere. I'm not trying to parrot him, but he makes some incredibly good points. One of them is that Thoughtseize is an ACTIVELY BAD card against decks packed with redundancy. His example is 40 Kalonian Tuskers. You strip one, they just play another. While we're obviously restricted to 4-ofs these days (though it was fun playing 20 lightning bolts back in the day), the rule still applies. Let's say you're on the play and you shock an Overgrown Tomb and cast Thoughtseize and see this:
What do you take, and why? Now you're at 16 and we don't have Mutilate any longer. It's T5 before you can kill a 2-drop with Gaze of Granite.
Might as well mention here and now that for all this RDW nonsense, I have yet to see a thread for it in the competitive section... Are you sure this deck will be a prevalent threat or are you just snake-oiling?
Also, after the briefest of recons concerning RDW, I see that the prevailing opinion is that Firefist is run in place of the Ash Zealot...
Additionally, most of the rock builds are utilizing Sylvan Caryatid, which would allow you to Gaze for 2 on turn 4 potentially...
As for your scenario, what I choose would really depend on what I had in my hand at the time... I may have the Caryatid, which would allow me to block anything but Phoenix. Or consider that a lot of people like playing Scavenging Ooze and that may potentially be in your hand. In the Caryatid scenario, I would take Lightning Strike, in the Ooze scenario, I'd take Phoenix. If you happen to be holding both Ooze and Caryatid, Phoenix again. If you happen to have the Gaze with the Caryatid, Lightning Strike is the call.
One more mention: this deck runs 4 shocklands and every recent list I have seen has double or better that amount of basic swamps so it is statistically more likely to have a swamp as opposed to a shockland... Plus if you happen to have both in your opening hand, its likely smarter to play the swamp turn 1 if you really want to TS then. Or you could play Tomb tapped and TS them a little later in the game...
Anyway, you are still having some comprehension difficulty... I said TS was the best 1 mana discard spell ever printed, not that it was the best discard spell ever printed... Kind of a different statement from the one you miscomprehended...
Quote from RedKid43 »
That Rock list from Worlds in 2008?! 2008? THAT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO.
Another one that can't read properly!!! If you had, you would see I was linking to those articles as a rebuttal to another ignorant implication of what sort of deck TS fits into...
Quote from rcwraspy »
One of them is that Thoughtseize is an ACTIVELY BAD card against decks packed with redundancy. His example is 40 Kalonian Tuskers. You strip one, they just play another.
Its not... TS in this scenario fulfills the same purpose as any removal spell would. Based on this logic applied to kill spells in the same scenario, you kill one and they just play another... Does that mean removal spells are also "actively bad"?
Check your logic and consider the source...
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Quote from Garland Greene aka the Marietta Mangler »
"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
Can we not dissolve this thread into "Is thoughtseize good or not" please?
I think it's safe to say it belongs somewhere in your 75 either way.
The real question is can Granite be a good enough replacement for mutilate. With dual lands in the format its not unthinkable to have 4 swamps on T6 or 3 on 4. In GoG terms you can wipe for 1 on T4 or 3 on T6. Is that going to be enough to survive against the aggro/midrange decks? It sounds quirky but maybe two darksteel ingots? It's a cheap way to get to GoG faster AND it survives.
Also whats the most realistic way we're going to be dealing with BBoV?
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Quote from Beefhouse3D »
I like to protect frightened things perhaps. I assembled them in the fortress of beefitude for safety.
Can we not dissolve this thread into "Is thoughtseize good or not" please?
I think it's safe to say it belongs somewhere in your 75 either way.
The real question is can Granite be a good enough replacement for mutilate. With dual lands in the format its not unthinkable to have 4 swamps on T6 or 3 on 4. In GoG terms you can wipe for 1 on T4 or 3 on T6. Is that going to be enough to survive against the aggro/midrange decks? It sounds quirky but maybe two darksteel ingots? It's a cheap way to get to GoG faster AND it survives.
Also whats the most realistic way we're going to be dealing with BBoV?
Although I've fallen into the trap of arguing semantics about the card, I'd say that Thoughtseize is a good answer to BBoV. Additionally, killing all their other creatures will create a tough choice when the BBoV controller is facing your Desecration Demon, and no choice if you cast Devour Flesh.
Although I've fallen into the trap of arguing semantics about the card, I'd say that Thoughtseize is a good answer to BBoV. Additionally, killing all their other creatures will create a tough choice when the BBoV controller is facing your Desecration Demon or Devour Flesh.
BBOV is immune to Demon. They would just gain 4 forever if you block.
Thoughtseize - BBOV, Obz, Witchstalker, Reaper, Aetherling, all are good picks.
On a more previous note, I moved DRS to my board, just to see how things go. I am gonna give it some time to see the effects.
The real question is can Granite be a good enough replacement for mutilate. With dual lands in the format its not unthinkable to have 4 swamps on T6 or 3 on 4. In GoG terms you can wipe for 1 on T4 or 3 on T6. Is that going to be enough to survive against the aggro/midrange decks? It sounds quirky but maybe two darksteel ingots? It's a cheap way to get to GoG faster AND it survives.
Also whats the most realistic way we're going to be dealing with BBoV?
Sylvan Caryatid is cheaper than Ingot and while its dying to Gaze may appear as a liability at first, when you realize this card helps you to survive until you can Gaze, it is abundantly clear that your choice card for this is not Darksteel Ingot...
As for BBoV, Thoughtseize is a great option, and most builds tend to run some Polukranos or Scavenging Ooze which both have the potential to defeat this threat... Boon Satyr can also do this, and has the benefit of being a surprise response to BB turning sideways...
Quote from Dumbteleologisist »
BBOV is immune to Demon. They would just gain 4 forever if you block.
Not sure what you meant by this, but Demon can't block BB as BB does have pro-black, and if BB is ever capable of blocking Demon, its probably time to pack it in and concede...
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Quote from Garland Greene aka the Marietta Mangler »
"Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working 50 hours a week in some office for 50 years, at the end of which they tell you to piss off... Ending up in some retirement village, hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
"Define Irony: Bunch of idiots dancing on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash"
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So, in the format right now, what threats have hexproof or protection that make this spell strictly better than any other removal spell in the format right now? Seems as though there are plenty of options to effectively thwart Devour Flesh by adding another creature into the equation... Like Advent of the Wurm, Selesnya Charm, Mutavault, Trostani, Young Pyromancer, are some examples... So is this still one of the best removal spells just because you may be able to kill a Blood Baron with it?
EDIT: In your list, you have 4 TS, 3 LBZ, Gaze of Granite, Ratchet Bomb, Scavenging Ooze, and Mutavault which are all immune to BBoV having pro-black... But, I'm sure your concern is justified.
Nope. I said in my opinion Thoughtseize is good, but not 30$ good. That's a tad different from saying: I won't run Thoughtseize because it costs my 30 bucks...
I hope so too, thank you.
It is the best hand disruption spell ever printed, and gives you perfect information.
Why would you not play it?
-Michael Jacob
So, you agree that its a good card and all of your rant ends up being a colossal waste of time because you misinterpreted my post to begin with...
For reference, here is the relevant portion:
Lets see, when it came out in Standard, it immediately became a staple in every format. Once it stopped being Standard legal, it stopped being a Standard staple. Coincidentally (It must be, because 99% of competitive MTG players must be wrong...), it remained as a staple in every legal format. Now that it is once again a Standard legal card, it will be a staple in Standard until it rotates... A good card is a good card. I didn't say it was good because the other formats played it, I said that because it is so good, the other formats play it... Please learn how to read properly, it will save all of us a lot of time...
But you didn't...
Like you said, debate is for the examination of all sides of an item. That user presented one side, I rebutted with the other side. That literally is a debate... Look it up if you don't believe me.
Of course a total spam post like the one you made is also bad for the thread... I mean every single point you made is completely irrelevant to the current format because none of those cards are even legal anymore. Then you go on to say you could argue the merits of a card that actually is legal but you don't do it...
Do you have SCG Premium, by chance? If you do, check out an article Reid Duke wrote not too long ago about how and when to properly play Thoughtseize. Moral of the story - it doesn't fit in every deck that has black mana sources.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Land: 23
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Golgari Guildgate
10x Swamp
5x Forest
Instants/Sorceries: 17
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Putrefy
2x Doom blade
2x Hero’s Downfall
2x Devour Flesh
2x Gaze of Granite
3x Read the Bones
Creatures: 20
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Lifebane Zombie
4x Desecration Demon
3x Reaper of the Wilds
I know most people aren't a fan of DRS, but I love the card and it has pulled me through numerous tough patches and I have an attachment to the guy. Really, this is just a generic version of the many decklists that have been posted all throughout the thread. Any comments?
(P.S. I don't understand how deck tags work)
You're most of the way there. I tagged it for you. Basically, format it exactly the way you did but before and after you're going to use brackets: [words]
And the words in the brackets will be "DECK" and "/DECK"
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Negative on the SCG Premium... As far as the moral goes, this thread is titled "The Rock" which has always utilized hand disruption as a form of light control so Thoughtseize should probably go in this style of deck (it does happen to be the best 1 mana discard spell in the entire game)... The how and when to play TS; got it covered already...
@Travee13: Deck tags: there is a button you can use for it up above the text box. Just make sure you select the text of your deck prior to selecting the deck tag... Or you can type deck at the beginning and /deck (surrounded with brackets) at the end which does the same thing... As far as your deck goes, I would recommend adding 4 Thoughtseize to it in the main. This should reduce your dead drops vs. control matchups and it also takes out troublesome critters such as Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Voice of Resurgence, etc... Thoughtseize is simply a magnificent card and it fits flawlessly into this deck, along with many others as well. Whip of Erebos is also a strong card in this deck...
Reasons this is a silly debate:
1. Most of us have Thoughtseize in our lists already (including me)
2. You're right - Rock has historically utilized hand disruption, and there's no reason for us not to
Reasons this is an important debate:
1-Infinity: Running Thoughtseize is not as simple as "run 4, use it on 1st turn." In fact, it's often incorrect to use it on T1. A lot of decks know they'll draw into their T4+ plays, and those are typically the cards that we want to strip. Additionally, it hurts tremendously to Shock an Overgrown Tomb and then do another 2 damage with Thoughtseize, only to look at 7 redundant aggro cards in our opponent's hand. Decks built with redundancy are the bane of hand disruption. This is why it's typically better to get a sense of what your opponent is running before using it, and timing it according to when that deck typically sees/plays the card you fear the most.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Anyone who recommends running 4 TS main has strictly no idea what he's talking about. It may be right for modern where you disrupt combos. But Standard is different. So I will move them back to the sideboard. (I kinda get the feeling you all jump on the hype-train without really playtesting TS yourself. No offense.)
Oh look, another one that can't read properly... Which part of, "The how and when to play TS; got it covered already..." did you not understand?
@ Putrefy: Be honest... you had a piss poor attitude towards TS before using it and your judgement was colored...
Infraction for flamine. -Sasky
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=23791
Thats a rock deck that ran 4 TS main, and, oh yeah, it top 8'ed Worlds...
In fact, at that worlds, G/B or G/B/x took 5 of the top 8 spots with strategies that are oh so similar to the one I happen to be running also in this thread... Each of those had 4 TS in them...
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=7899
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=90610
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=98256
Ever consider its because they have printed better options than Serra and that is why it's now terrible... OTOH, Thoughtseize used to be a Standard staple and now its still just the best 1 mana discard spell ever printed.
Anyway I'm through stnding in your way. If you'd insist on being wrong, then go ahead. I'll be playing MTG, not hair-splitting...
Actually when they announced TS to be reprinted in THS I was like: "Oh no, not again...". The more I thought about it though, the more my perspective changed. And I can only relate to my experience with using it and without using it. And my experience is, that TS is not a you must play. Either way, you're biased aswell. I will make no further statement on the topic, because this "discussion" leads to nothing but aggression and hateful posts - not what I'm looking for.
I understand it completely. But I also understand that your blind championing of it without actually taking its nuances into account means you don't actually understand the "how and when."
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Yep. Biased towards using the best available cards to construct a deck...
Surely, if I am wrong, someone should be able to quantitatively demonstrate that and explain what would be a better option... So far, nothing but weak hair-splitting and some incorrect theories that I am wrong simply because I haven't read some article or my line of reasoning doesn't 100% agree with yours...
So, why can't anyone do this? Shouldn't be that difficult, unless...
I happen to be right on this one...:nod:
Clearly you do not understand or comprehend my claims. Not to worry, though. I get that your comprehension must be questionable so if you choose to disagree, then go ahead... I'm done trying to convince an ignorantly stubborn horse to drink from the water that I showed you...
Flaming is against the rules.
-DarkRitual
This thread should discuss what cards are working and not working in your testing and why they are testing that way, period.
I don't have much free time to playtest, so I'm wondering if anyone has had a chance to get much in?
Lastly, when is the Primer going to be updated, and please include a fourth card in each row so that they are uniform.
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Loosing 2 life per card for one card is alot when you have to face aggro, but i still want to play it just need more support for now ill stick to duress and lifebane.
What would your choices be for cards that gain you life?
Thoughtseize is just like any other 1 CMC discard spell ever. It's awesome early and sucks so hard late game. Especially here because, if behind on life, 2 life is steep for one card.
I think it's prevalence in the Eternal formats have colored it's ego. Yes, it's a fantastic card that can wreck hands and the like, but look at what you're dealing with in terms of just formats as a whole:
Standard in 2013: Slower paced, games are designed to have lots of longevity. Thoughtseize isn't quite like what it used to be like back in Faeries. Faeries was a tempo deck that tried to capitalize on straight attrition and cheap denial spells (Mana Short, various counterspells, etc) that were also creatures. All of your creatures were 2-1s. Having Thoughtseize here was much helpful as, coupled by cheap tempo spells that wrecked opponents. Nowadays, we have to work hard for our creatures to be better and our deck strategies to play out. Not like it was back then.
Modern, Legacy, Vintage: Decks and game plans are faster because the cards/decks are better and more vulnerable to a cheap, catch all discard. Legacy decks are straight attrition decks that are super cheap and each card is a moving part.
This kind of strategy mirrors the decks found in the Eternal Formats. That's why Faeries and more recently UW Delver, were able to capitalize on Standard so well, they were attrition decks that out tempo-ed the big game Standard Decks.
That Rock list from Worlds in 2008?! 2008? THAT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO. ROCK DECKS NOW ARE DIFFERENT FROM ROCK DECKS FIVE YEARS AGO. And remember, that was a time where Standard was FILLED with Faeries. So the only way to attack a tempo-attrition strategy was to combat in one with a faster clock, and a bigger game plan to attack the Big Standard decks at the time.
Legacy and Modern strategies are straight forward, no nonsense, and contain about 85% less derpy bull**** than Standard decks do. All Standard decks have clear backup plans and can shake off discard very nicely.
If you Thoughtseized a Mistbind Clique or a Tarmogoyf five years ago in Standard, it was a good play and very crippling. If you Thoughtseize a player now and see three giant game winning creatures, what are you gonna do? Play another Thoughtseize? Now you wasted two turns, 4 life and they have probably planned on it.
Thoughtseize in 2013 Standard a staple? Doubt it. It ill be around, for sure, but it's not an auto-4 of anymore.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Woah there. Let's take it down a notch. I haven't called you names, no need to resort to that.
I do comprehend your "claims." You say that Thoughtseize is the best discard spell ever printed. Other than Hymn to Tourach and maybe a couple other cards here and there, I agree.
You say it was in winning decklists when it was Standard legal. Yep, can't argue there and I'm not trying to. It was in plenty of TEMPO lists.
You say it's an eternal format staple. Yes, your powers of observation are astounding.
But all of this does not add up to it being an auto-include in a RTR-Theros B/g Midrange deck. I really suggest you google "Reid Duke Thoughtseize" and see if you can grab a read of his article for free somewhere. I'm not trying to parrot him, but he makes some incredibly good points. One of them is that Thoughtseize is an ACTIVELY BAD card against decks packed with redundancy. His example is 40 Kalonian Tuskers. You strip one, they just play another. While we're obviously restricted to 4-ofs these days (though it was fun playing 20 lightning bolts back in the day), the rule still applies. Let's say you're on the play and you shock an Overgrown Tomb and cast Thoughtseize and see this:
Rakdos Cackler
Ash Zealot
Chandra's Phoenix
Rakdos Cackler
Mountain
Mountain
Lightning Strike
What do you take, and why? Now you're at 16 and we don't have Mutilate any longer. It's T5 before you can kill a 2-drop with Gaze of Granite.
Thoughtseize is a very good card and my list currently has 3. But I disagree that it's a mindless auto-include.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Might as well mention here and now that for all this RDW nonsense, I have yet to see a thread for it in the competitive section... Are you sure this deck will be a prevalent threat or are you just snake-oiling?
Also, after the briefest of recons concerning RDW, I see that the prevailing opinion is that Firefist is run in place of the Ash Zealot...
Additionally, most of the rock builds are utilizing Sylvan Caryatid, which would allow you to Gaze for 2 on turn 4 potentially...
As for your scenario, what I choose would really depend on what I had in my hand at the time... I may have the Caryatid, which would allow me to block anything but Phoenix. Or consider that a lot of people like playing Scavenging Ooze and that may potentially be in your hand. In the Caryatid scenario, I would take Lightning Strike, in the Ooze scenario, I'd take Phoenix. If you happen to be holding both Ooze and Caryatid, Phoenix again. If you happen to have the Gaze with the Caryatid, Lightning Strike is the call.
One more mention: this deck runs 4 shocklands and every recent list I have seen has double or better that amount of basic swamps so it is statistically more likely to have a swamp as opposed to a shockland... Plus if you happen to have both in your opening hand, its likely smarter to play the swamp turn 1 if you really want to TS then. Or you could play Tomb tapped and TS them a little later in the game...
Anyway, you are still having some comprehension difficulty... I said TS was the best 1 mana discard spell ever printed, not that it was the best discard spell ever printed... Kind of a different statement from the one you miscomprehended...
Another one that can't read properly!!! If you had, you would see I was linking to those articles as a rebuttal to another ignorant implication of what sort of deck TS fits into...
Its not... TS in this scenario fulfills the same purpose as any removal spell would. Based on this logic applied to kill spells in the same scenario, you kill one and they just play another... Does that mean removal spells are also "actively bad"?
Check your logic and consider the source...
I think it's safe to say it belongs somewhere in your 75 either way.
The real question is can Granite be a good enough replacement for mutilate. With dual lands in the format its not unthinkable to have 4 swamps on T6 or 3 on 4. In GoG terms you can wipe for 1 on T4 or 3 on T6. Is that going to be enough to survive against the aggro/midrange decks? It sounds quirky but maybe two darksteel ingots? It's a cheap way to get to GoG faster AND it survives.
Also whats the most realistic way we're going to be dealing with BBoV?
Although I've fallen into the trap of arguing semantics about the card, I'd say that Thoughtseize is a good answer to BBoV. Additionally, killing all their other creatures will create a tough choice when the BBoV controller is facing your Desecration Demon, and no choice if you cast Devour Flesh.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
BBOV is immune to Demon. They would just gain 4 forever if you block.
Thoughtseize - BBOV, Obz, Witchstalker, Reaper, Aetherling, all are good picks.
On a more previous note, I moved DRS to my board, just to see how things go. I am gonna give it some time to see the effects.
Sylvan Caryatid is cheaper than Ingot and while its dying to Gaze may appear as a liability at first, when you realize this card helps you to survive until you can Gaze, it is abundantly clear that your choice card for this is not Darksteel Ingot...
As for BBoV, Thoughtseize is a great option, and most builds tend to run some Polukranos or Scavenging Ooze which both have the potential to defeat this threat... Boon Satyr can also do this, and has the benefit of being a surprise response to BB turning sideways...
Not sure what you meant by this, but Demon can't block BB as BB does have pro-black, and if BB is ever capable of blocking Demon, its probably time to pack it in and concede...