This is currently under construction and will be updated frequently. Please keep checking the original primer as I add to it based off my experiences and experiences of other players piloting this deck.
BG Introduction GB
For all of you who do not know, The Rock before rotation was a BG midrange/control deck (there were Bw and Bgw variants) utilizing attrition through efficient creatures, strong removal, strong CA, and absurd amounts of life gain. The Rock specialized in beating aggro decks and had no bad match-ups but had no ways to easily fix mana and guarantee consistent land drops which was its major flaw. This season, the Rock lost its sweeper, but it gained mana fixing and some strong utility and creatures. Now, let's move onto what's changed because of the new rotation.
BG Rotation Changes GB
The Rock has changed a lot since last season.
The Rock was an incredibly strong attrition based deck that stomped aggro, but now The Rock has lost 3 major components: Thragtusk, Disciple of Bolas, and Mutilate. Without these, it seemed like The Rock would die off because it lost it's engine and sweeper, but The Rock got a lot of goodies in Theros. Cards such as Reaper of the Wilds, Polukranos, World EaterSylvan Caryatid and
The deck now consists of two major types: Bg Attrition, and Gb Beatdown. Both have their pros and cons and they've both placed--Bg placed 3rd/4th in a TCQ Gold, Gb placed 3rd in a Trial Tournament, and a hybrid deck (leaning on Attrition) top 8'd at a $1k.
There's not enough in just BG because of the losses and with no Mutilate splashing a 3rd color is better.
I disagree, your splashing blue for? a plainswalker (that is questionable in this deck) and prime speaker(not bad) chimara (really good) I do feel that BG is strong enough to do this on its own, I think you cant run less then 3 gaze main deck however. I love how the deck uses the god and his weapon, which I might bring up to 2 copys, you do want to draw it every game really.
the BIG BIG issue with the 3 color version is the entire mana base either shocks you, cipt, or makes colorless mana. you have 7 basic lands, 1 of which is usless to the majority of the deck, so in fact you have 6 lands that come into play untapped. you have 3 turn 2 removal spells. 2 that cost GB and 1 that costs 1B. vs RDWs you will need to interact on turn 2 or lose, the 3 color build can not realiably interact on turn 2, hell it most of the time wont be able to do much until turn 4.
is the 3 color version doing more powerful things? yep. Is it going to live to do them? mostly no. I would stick to 2 colors for now, blue just dosnt add enough to this deck.
Honestly I don't think "The Rock" will be viable any more. The loss of Thragtusk and Disciple of Bolas hurt a lot. Read the Bones is an excellent card, but it shocks you. As does Thoughtseize. Without lifegain and that little you can do on T1 -> T3 you will have a hard time against g/w aggro and rdw-aggro. And as it stands right now, RDW-Aggro is a thing and G/W Aggro for sure is a thing..
I'd like to have it work out though! Let's wait and see..
I disagree, your splashing blue for? a plainswalker (that is questionable in this deck) and prime speaker(not bad) chimara (really good) I do feel that BG is strong enough to do this on its own, I think you cant run less then 3 gaze main deck however. I love how the deck uses the god and his weapon, which I might bring up to 2 copys, you do want to draw it every game really.
the BIG BIG issue with the 3 color version is the entire mana base either shocks you, cipt, or makes colorless mana. you have 7 basic lands, 1 of which is usless to the majority of the deck, so in fact you have 6 lands that come into play untapped. you have 3 turn 2 removal spells. 2 that cost GB and 1 that costs 1B. vs RDWs you will need to interact on turn 2 or lose, the 3 color build can not realiably interact on turn 2, hell it most of the time wont be able to do much until turn 4.
is the 3 color version doing more powerful things? yep. Is it going to live to do them? mostly no. I would stick to 2 colors for now, blue just dosnt add enough to this deck.
BG without blue has a sketchy creature base. There is absolutely no lifegain and with Read the Bones and Thoughtseize mainboard with a lot of direct damage in Theros that BG deck will not do as well. If BG had lifegain or another creature like Disciple, it would be perfectly fine, but BG is not strong compared BGx. There is no reason to stay out of 3 colors because there is no Mutilate. The lands that entered tapped (excluding Guildgate which I run less of than the straight BG version) scry which is incredibly useful for digging for cards that are needed.
You're arguing that a deck with it's only lifegain being Scavenging Ooze, which is being run as a 4 of which is bad because you only want 1 out at a time (in most cases) is going to do better than a deck with forms of lifegain outside of Scavenging Ooze against aggro? The BG version uses more spells that require life and the BG version has less life gain. The BGu version has more lifegain, better CA, and a better aggro match-up because of Ashiok, the planeswalker you were saying doesn't fit the deck. Without Mutilate, having a duo colored deck limits options.
Man I love the Rock but the deck is really without engines for now.
Whip of Erebos might be the best source for life gain. It also good on late game, getting back dead cards. Thoughseize is a must have. Even against aggro the card is not bad as you can grab something that would deal more then 2 damage to you in the long run. Sylvan Caryatid is another big addition. Ramp, color fix, blocks BTE. Read the Bones is in it's home despite the fact it disputes slots with underworld connections. I would play a 3/1 or 2/1 split personally. Kalonian Hydra is a thing to consider. It does work well with Whip of Erebos.
Without sweepers we need a super heavy removal suit since GW outclass us in pure attrition (invulnerable lion, voice is ridicolous, AoS is still a freaking good). My build revolves around:
24 Lands
4 Caryatid (Mana/Ramp)
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Thoughseize
3~4 Connections / Bones split (Raw CA)
16~18 Threats (Split of many 3~5 drops, I wish there was a obnoxious 6 drop in our colors)
6~8 Removal (decay, downfall, doomblade split)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not convinced of the blue splash.
The chimera is a 'ok' card but dying to jet and shock is not where we want our 4 drops to be, not playing midrange. The life gain is too incremental. Again, Whip of Erebos is a card that gives good life, it's hard to deal with (harder then creatures) and beast late game were you get all those dead big drops back to play packing extra punch.
Ashiok is pretty weak card overall. In this deck in your need to mill yourself twice to properly cast a creature and keep her around. It's 3 turn to make the card CA neutral. She would be a lot better if UBx had a abundance of worthy 1~3 drops but that's not the case. The way it is he's just a ultra bad and fragile half assed show and tell.
Sorry @Basher19 but people are not buying your blue splash tech. Mutilate is not the only reason to stick with two colors. Scry lands are bad and no one want to play many of those. Even control decks are going fast to two colors (even before rotation WU were stronger then WUR and Esper). I played a few hand with your deck in cockatrice and the mana base is atrocious.
Adding blue is a huge strike against the deck's consistency and adds little. I would say only Zigana is worthy and is still questionable in many match ups were she gets stuck in your hand (too slow) or goes down in a empty board (control after sweeping all day).
BG without blue has a sketchy creature base. There is absolutely no lifegain and with Read the Bones and Thoughtseize mainboard with a lot of direct damage in Theros that BG deck will not do as well. If BG had lifegain or another creature like Disciple, it would be perfectly fine, but BG is not strong compared BGx. There is no reason to stay out of 3 colors because there is no Mutilate. The lands that entered tapped (excluding Guildgate which I run less of than the straight BG version) scry which is incredibly useful for digging for cards that are needed.
You're arguing that a deck with it's only lifegain being Scavenging Ooze, which is being run as a 4 of which is bad because you only want 1 out at a time (in most cases) is going to do better than a deck with forms of lifegain outside of Scavenging Ooze against aggro? The BG version uses more spells that require life and the BG version has less life gain. The BGu version has more lifegain, better CA, and a better aggro match-up because of Ashiok, the planeswalker you were saying doesn't fit the deck. Without Mutilate, having a duo colored deck limits options.
your incorrect, it has life gain in the form of whip, ooze, and in the build I have been testing trading post, which I forgot to mention in the earlier post. how exactly does Ashiok help the agro match up o_O mill 3 take your 2/2 okay......your agro match up isn't good because your mana base is to slow, for example I present this list.
this build is better able to interact early then the 3 color build has a more stable mana base and can more easily survive to grind the game. of course this is just a quick build and not tuned yet as it was put together for testing reasons.
Man I love the Rock but the deck is really without engines for now.
Whip of Erebos might be the best source for life gain. It also good on late game, getting back dead cards. Thoughseize is a must have. Even against aggro the card is not bad as you can grab something that would deal more then 2 damage to you in the long run. Sylvan Caryatid is another big addition. Ramp, color fix, blocks BTE. Read the Bones is in it's home despite the fact it disputes slots with underworld connections. I would play a 3/1 or 2/1 split personally. Kalonian Hydra is a thing to consider. It does work well with Whip of Erebos.
Without sweepers we need a super heavy removal suit since GW outclass us in pure attrition (invulnerable lion, voice is ridicolous, AoS is still a freaking good). My build revolves around:
24 Lands
4 Caryatid (Mana/Ramp)
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Thoughseize
3~4 Connections / Bones split (Raw CA)
16~18 Threats (Split of many 3~5 drops, I wish there was a obnoxious 6 drop in our colors)
6~8 Removal (decay, downfall, doomblade split)
I overlooked the 0/3 completely forgot him, he makes the bug version easier to do, however, I still like the synergy of trading post/Erebos.
The best color for splashing The Rock is white: for early turns we have Loxodon Smiter, a big creature that may help you to survive while you prepare your field, Blood Baron of Vizkopa gives you all lives you lost last turns, and Obzedat wins the game by himself.
In addition, some cards you can play in MB and SB: Rest in Peace if you don't use the Graveyard (even with Scavenging Ooze, Reanimator is not dead), Selesnya Charm to dispatch big creatures (like gods...) and many good white cards we have.
What I don't know is: why people here prefer Whip of Erebos over Bow of Nylea? I don't think whip is bad, but bow have more options and even your smallest creature can be a threat via Deathtouch, and also gives you lives..
bow is great but isn't right for this deck I don't believe, death touch is nice, but its only your attacking creatures have it. whip you can be defensive and block with reaper (which gains death touch if needed for B and whip gives unconditional life link. also the whips ability to resurrect guys that have died is pretty big. reanimating a desecration demon on a empty board and making a 12 point life swing is huge. even if they sac a dude to tap him down that's still a 4 mana flashback edict which isn't awful.
white is a idea. being able to interact with the RDWs that WILL see play early is important. I dislike rest in peace, however, since B/G plays a sort of minor reanimation theme with whip and completely shutting off half of whip just dosnt seem like a good idea to me.
The best color for splashing The Rock is white: for early turns we have Loxodon Smiter, a big creature that may help you to survive while you prepare your field, Blood Baron of Vizkopa gives you all lives you lost last turns, and Obzedat wins the game by himself.
In addition, some cards you can play in MB and SB: Rest in Peace if you don't use the Graveyard (even with Scavenging Ooze, Reanimator is not dead), Selesnya Charm to dispatch big creatures (like gods...) and many good white cards we have.
What I don't know is: why people here prefer Whip of Erebos over Bow of Nylea? I don't think whip is bad, but bow have more options and even your smallest creature can be a threat via Deathtouch, and also gives you lives..
Deathtouch is not so important in a midrange deck were you play fewer but stronger creatures. No creatures survives a combat with out creatures anyway. And life link is the opposite. The bigger your guys, better at breaking stalemates and delivering the punch you need to recover life.
Also despite it being 1 mana cheaper and fitting in the curve better, it requires constant influx of mana. Also the additional utility of Erebos Whip is incredibly strong vs. control. Countered Kalonian Hydra ? Take 8 next turn.
Might as well post the list I've been working with here..
It's a thing. I really want to be casting Desecration Demon and t3 demon is even better - As a matter of fact, Sylvan Caryatid into Demon is a nightmare start for any aggro deck -
My list kind of addresses some of the issues the OP has with regards to lack of lifegane, it's something to consider if nothing else..
I completely forgot about Merchant because I either didn't read the spoilers close enough or it just went completely over my head when thinking about the Rock. Gray Merchant is a great 5 drop for us that fills in Thragtusk's role. In the only role missing is that of Disciple, the huge draw out of nowhere was hard to come by, but I think that Garruk, Calle of Beasts can fit that role somewhat. The lifegain from Whip + Merchant is enough to replace what was there, but I think that The Rock needs to find a strong CA engine before it's anywhere as good as it used to be. Because of my overlook of Merchant, I messed up and splashed blue where it wasn't required. With that said, I propose turning the above list into this:
While I love Gaze of Granite as much as the next guy, I'm not sure that you want this in the deck. G/B I feel is going to go much more permanent based and GoG sweeps away to many of said cards.
While Gray Merchant of the Ashpodel may appear to be a Thragtusk filler, it is in fact not. Let's say that we are playing a mono red burn deck, and we managed to get a Lifebane Zombie into play. We play this guy, they are just going to burn the zombie away, so we gain only a couple life, then next turn they swing away anyway and we block, they burn out our creature and we have nothing really to show for it. What was so powerful about Thragtusk was that he not only gained 5 life guaranteed, he could block a creature or eat a burn spell and would replace himself. Against Control he would replace himself after a removal/sweeper. I just think that you are wasting your time here.
I would look at getting some 1CMC removal spells in here. While there isn't much to choose from currently (and not very good), against Gx decks running Elvish Mystic its going to be key and we want a way to remove other aggro one drops. To fill this role we have either Viper's Kiss or Wring Flesh. I would personally look at going with Viper's Kiss because it could be useful late game.
As for Garruk, Caller of Beasts, I don't think that you are running enough creatures for him. With only 18 creatures (30%) in the deck, you will be whiffing way to much with him, and you don't have any big scary green creatures to drop into play against aggro if you need to get a creature into play or to sneak one past a counterspell.
All that said, I really do think that GB has a future in the upcoming Standard. This is the deck that I am looking at building/testing:
This deck is more of a ramp deck, since I want to get a big 4 drop into play on turn 3.
To make Garruk, Caller of Beasts a major threat, I've decided to utilize more creatures like Shadowborn Demon, Arbor Colossus, and Polukranos, World Eater that do stuff when either entering play or effect the board at a later stage in the game. This way I can insure that I draw more cards off of him and as well give myself options of dropping a creature into play if need be.
Arbor Colossus is here because I expect to see lots of Desecration Demons in the upcoming Standard Season. That is as well why Sylvan Primordial is here, but he can also take out opposing planeswalkers or something. Shadowborn Demon is my Murder on a stick that I can draw off of Garruk, Caller of Beasts and can see play fast with the ramp. Polukranos, World Eater is another potential powerful card. I could very easily see this on turn 4 pumping for 2, eating their early drop(s) and then swinging for 7.
So anyway, there is the deck that I've brewed in my brain. After some playtesting I'm sure something's will change.
Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx is in the deck as a 1-of because The Rock has a high devotion to black with all of the permanetns that have BB in their costs which help in using Gaze of Granite effectively. The reason Gaze works in this deck is that our major players (excluding Ooze) are 4CMC and above while Gaze will be able to hit everything 3 and under to wipe most of the board of an aggro deck.
8 self mill options, which will fill your GY with resources to reanimate, decrease Nemesis' cost and allow Shaman to ramp. Commune also allows you to get the Whip.
4 Finishers (Lord/Giant) that have evasion and will leave resources behind (besides the 7 life) after the single hit the Whip gives you (one of their creatures or a 7/7 trample token that makes tokens as well).
6 Mid-size roadblocks (Demon and Nemesis) that can win you the game even if you do not reanimate anything.
8 mana dorks, being Shaman much more than that.
6 Reanimation spells.
4 Self-discard outlet in the form of Troll, which can also hold aggro or apply pressure on control.
I like the deck and it might be viable for FNM if people start to forget GY hate thinking reanimation is gone for good. Is this worth testing?
8 self mill options, which will fill your GY with resources to reanimate, decrease Nemesis' cost and allow Shaman to ramp. Commune also allows you to get the Whip.
4 Finishers (Lord/Giant) that have evasion and will leave resources behind (besides the 7 life) after the single hit the Whip gives you (one of their creatures or a 7/7 trample token that makes tokens as well).
6 Mid-size roadblocks (Demon and Nemesis) that can win you the game even if you do not reanimate anything.
8 mana dorks, being Shaman much more than that.
6 Reanimation spells.
4 Self-discard outlet in the form of Troll, which can also hold aggro or apply pressure on control.
I like the deck and it might be viable for FNM if people start to forget GY hate thinking reanimation is gone for good. Is this worth testing?
GB reanimator isn't as good as the Junk version because the Junk version has powerful options from white to run such as AoS, Blood Baron, Voice. While this deck might be viable at FNM, at a competitive FNM or larger tournament, it wouldn't be able to do much.
Deathrite Shaman
This card is not out of place in this format. If you are using him to gain 2 life against aggro, you will, eventually, regain your footing. I believe there is a fetch land we could be utilizing turn 1, granted, ETBT, so does a guildgate. It would activate all three of this cards abilities. This will live through our Golgari Charm -1/-1 effect as well as adding to the devotion count. I think this is easily worth consideration. I think this card really strengthens our aggro matchup, more so against the explosive aggro decks.
Deathrite Shaman
This card is not out of place in this format. If you are using him to gain 2 life against aggro, you will, eventually, regain your footing. I believe there is a fetch land we could be utilizing turn 1, granted, ETBT, so does a guildgate. It would activate all three of this cards abilities. This will live through our Golgari Charm -1/-1 effect as well as adding to the devotion count. I think this is easily worth consideration. I think this card really strengthens our aggro matchup, more so against the explosive aggro decks.
There is a reason DRS (a card i really like) isnt anywhere near on the level of scavenging ooze. He cant be activated the turn he comes down, his ramp unless you're a salvage type deck is obsolete, and he never gets bigger. In a format where magma jet is back, i assure you he will not get far. Where atleast ooze is something that can grow out of hand, where DRS cant. As for our best defense vs aggro, Sylvan Caryatid ranks pretty high up there, where he can chump most of the early aggressive beaters until we can get a 4 drop into play (which he also makes happen faster.). I'd say another good anti aggro card would in my opinion is Pharika's Cure. I wish we still had VNH in standard, im sure going to miss that little guy.
There is a reason DRS (a card i really like) isnt anywhere near on the level of scavenging ooze. He cant be activated the turn he comes down, his ramp unless you're a salvage type deck is obsolete, and he never gets bigger. In a format where magma jet is back, i assure you he will not get far. Where atleast ooze is something that can grow out of hand, where DRS cant. As for our best defense vs aggro, Sylvan Caryatid ranks pretty high up there, where he can chump most of the early aggressive beaters until we can get a 4 drop into play (which he also makes happen faster.). I'd say another good anti aggro card would in my opinion is Pharika's Cure. I wish we still had VNH in standard, im sure going to miss that little guy.
I do agree that Magma Jet will be a staple, and something we will all have to deal with. I also agree that I want a new Vampire Nighthawk. I think if my Deathrite Shaman pulls a Magma Jet out of my opponents hand, I've Duressed the burn from their hand, which removes that card from going to my face. In the red aggro match, that matters. I still think this card will win me games Sylvan Carytid would be a dead draw on. I think Deathrite Shaman adds more reach than our supposed Thragtusk replacement. I suppose we could add Brindle Boar to the list just because if resolved, gains us more life at once, and resembles RB.
The main issues im running into, and foresee as a problem for the deck is mass aggro decks. White weenie, and Boros are probably far and away the toughest match up. People complain about naya, but white weenie and boros are just so much brutal. A more aggressive RDW thats more small creature based is probably just as bad as well.
The main issues im running into, and foresee as a problem for the deck is mass aggro decks. White weenie, and Boros are probably far and away the toughest match up. People complain about naya, but white weenie and boros are just so much brutal. A more aggressive RDW thats more small creature based is probably just as bad as well.
I agree that the really quick aggro decks will cause issue. This is my exact reason for including cards like Deathrite Shaman. The decks in reference really run out of gas after maybe the 6-7th creature drop. This would put us on turn 4-6. Deathrite Shaman adds value to our removal suite. One removal spell is 2 activations. I don't think I would have such an easy fight against these decks without Deathrite Shaman. Golgari Charm really helps in these matchups as well, allowing us time to set a good Gaze of Granite. Deathrite Shaman lives through the -1/-1 as well. I think he serves a functionally different roll than Scavenging Ooze. I would recommend any of my fellow B/g players to test a list with this guy against an RDW list or WW. I challenge you to try him against an RDW, G/W, and WW list and see how you feel.
I'm going the route in which we drop a 4CMC guy on turn three rather then depend on a three drop. The only turn one ramp right now is Elvish Mystic, and that doesn't usually help you cast your three drops you are suggesting (and doesn't help Nightveil Specter at all). That is the reason why I am going turn TwoRamp into afourdrop that dominates the battlefield or AGod. There is even Equipment to get down early or that pairs with removal.
Opinion based on Theory isn't going to cut it when evaluating new cards, we've seen this time and time again, everyone from casuals to pros get so much wrong.
Take your own advice, test it out..
Theory remains untested. Unfortunately I've been playing my personal list with Deathrite Shaman, not theorizing on it. Way to post untruths though without any actual testing.
Read your own post. Where are your results with both DRS and/or Gray? Did you consider what you had wrote to be falsified, rude, and rhetoric? In one post full of no actual composition you've made me look like the information, and time I've invested was for naught.
As far as Gray is concerned, I am more than happy to adjust accordingly, I just don't think the turn 4-5 lifegain is as reliable as I would like. I do apologize if calling him the "Supposed replacement" caused you any offence.
What happens when a removal spell is cast in response to Gray merchant of Asphodel? Have you played any games where you just haven't had any permanants in play at the point of the game where you needed the ETB ability to resolve? Have you played him against any quick aggro lists?
The facts are, Deathrite Shaman can produce a desirable effect, with a simple mana investment. It dying to removal means a lot less when the card is at cost with Duress. I must agree that a Whip of Erebos+Gray Merchant of Asphodel does feel great, I'd rather swing with a Desecration Demon or a Reaper of the Wilds with lifelink in that situation. Yes, Gray Merchant of Asphodel has great ETB effect, however, in a Control shell, I would prefer to invest in a 1 drop which can create an equally desirable, and functionally identical effect.
Here's my list. I'm hedging on a few things slightly with this list, so hopfully they pan out.
I also think that Deathrite Shaman COULD be more impactful this time around than in the INN-RTR standard. But he's not a T1 play, so I don't need 3 or 4 of him. Rather 1 or 2. Red is getting some really nice land-D in this set, which may let you use DRS's mana ability, but that's just the icing. The real upside is his late-game reach in a stalled board or when both players are top-decking. A shock per turn adds up in those situations. All that said, this list is rather creature heavy and he'd be the first cut if I need to jam more removal.
I'm still on the Lifebane train. G/W looks like a very strong archetype heading into the unknown meta, Intimidate is wonderful, and it never hurts to see an opponent's hand, even if you can't rip something out of it.
I feel like this list needs X copies of Golgari Charm somewhere in the 75, but I haven't put them in yet. Perhaps 2 in the side replacing a Gaze and a Ratchet Bomb.
This is currently under construction and will be updated frequently. Please keep checking the original primer as I add to it based off my experiences and experiences of other players piloting this deck.
For all of you who do not know, The Rock before rotation was a BG midrange/control deck (there were Bw and Bgw variants) utilizing attrition through efficient creatures, strong removal, strong CA, and absurd amounts of life gain. The Rock specialized in beating aggro decks and had no bad match-ups but had no ways to easily fix mana and guarantee consistent land drops which was its major flaw. This season, the Rock lost its sweeper, but it gained mana fixing and some strong utility and creatures. Now, let's move onto what's changed because of the new rotation.
The Rock has changed a lot since last season.
The Rock was an incredibly strong attrition based deck that stomped aggro, but now The Rock has lost 3 major components: Thragtusk, Disciple of Bolas, and Mutilate. Without these, it seemed like The Rock would die off because it lost it's engine and sweeper, but The Rock got a lot of goodies in Theros. Cards such as Reaper of the Wilds, Polukranos, World Eater Sylvan Caryatid and
The deck now consists of two major types: Bg Attrition, and Gb Beatdown. Both have their pros and cons and they've both placed--Bg placed 3rd/4th in a TCQ Gold, Gb placed 3rd in a Trial Tournament, and a hybrid deck (leaning on Attrition) top 8'd at a $1k.
Now, why should you even play The Rock?
3-4x Lifebane Zombie
0-3x Merchant of Asphodel
0-4x Deathrite Shaman
0-2x Shadowborn Demon
2-3x Scavenging Ooze
3-4x Desecration Demon
GB
4x Desecration Demon
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Reaper of the Wilds
3x Gray Merchant of the Ashpodel
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Lifebane Zombie
Enchantments: 3
2x Underworld Connections
1x Primeval Bounty
Planeswalkers: 1
1x Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Artifacts: 2
2x Whip of Erebos
Sorceries: 5
3x Read the Bones
2x Gaze of Granite
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Putrefy
1x Doom Blade
2x Hero's Downfall
Land: 24
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Mutavault
3x Golgari Guildgate
9x Swamp
5x Forest
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Thoughtseize
1x Underworld Connections
2x Pithing Needle
2x Devour Flesh
1x Golgari Charm
2x Vraska
1x Lifebane Zombie
2x Erebos, God of the Dead
Creatures
Coming soon.
Removal
Coming soon.
Utility
Coming soon.
BG Match Ups GB
Coming soon.
BG Other Rock Variants GB
Coming soon.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Golgari Guildgate
2 Mutavault
5 Forest
9 Swamp
Creatures (16)
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Desecration Demon
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
Artifacts (1)
1 Whip of Erebos
Planeswalker (1)
1 Vraska the Unseen
Sorceries (8)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Read the Bones
2 Gaze of Granite
Instants (8)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Doom Blade
1 Putrefy
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Devour Flesh
1 Putrefy
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Fade into Antiquity
2 Golgari Charm
1 Underworld Connections
1 Primeval Bounty
There's not enough in just BG because of the losses and with no Mutilate splashing a 3rd color is better.
I disagree, your splashing blue for? a plainswalker (that is questionable in this deck) and prime speaker(not bad) chimara (really good) I do feel that BG is strong enough to do this on its own, I think you cant run less then 3 gaze main deck however. I love how the deck uses the god and his weapon, which I might bring up to 2 copys, you do want to draw it every game really.
the BIG BIG issue with the 3 color version is the entire mana base either shocks you, cipt, or makes colorless mana. you have 7 basic lands, 1 of which is usless to the majority of the deck, so in fact you have 6 lands that come into play untapped. you have 3 turn 2 removal spells. 2 that cost GB and 1 that costs 1B. vs RDWs you will need to interact on turn 2 or lose, the 3 color build can not realiably interact on turn 2, hell it most of the time wont be able to do much until turn 4.
is the 3 color version doing more powerful things? yep. Is it going to live to do them? mostly no. I would stick to 2 colors for now, blue just dosnt add enough to this deck.
I'd like to have it work out though! Let's wait and see..
BG without blue has a sketchy creature base. There is absolutely no lifegain and with Read the Bones and Thoughtseize mainboard with a lot of direct damage in Theros that BG deck will not do as well. If BG had lifegain or another creature like Disciple, it would be perfectly fine, but BG is not strong compared BGx. There is no reason to stay out of 3 colors because there is no Mutilate. The lands that entered tapped (excluding Guildgate which I run less of than the straight BG version) scry which is incredibly useful for digging for cards that are needed.
You're arguing that a deck with it's only lifegain being Scavenging Ooze, which is being run as a 4 of which is bad because you only want 1 out at a time (in most cases) is going to do better than a deck with forms of lifegain outside of Scavenging Ooze against aggro? The BG version uses more spells that require life and the BG version has less life gain. The BGu version has more lifegain, better CA, and a better aggro match-up because of Ashiok, the planeswalker you were saying doesn't fit the deck. Without Mutilate, having a duo colored deck limits options.
Whip of Erebos might be the best source for life gain. It also good on late game, getting back dead cards.
Thoughseize is a must have. Even against aggro the card is not bad as you can grab something that would deal more then 2 damage to you in the long run.
Sylvan Caryatid is another big addition. Ramp, color fix, blocks BTE.
Read the Bones is in it's home despite the fact it disputes slots with underworld connections. I would play a 3/1 or 2/1 split personally.
Kalonian Hydra is a thing to consider. It does work well with Whip of Erebos.
Without sweepers we need a super heavy removal suit since GW outclass us in pure attrition (invulnerable lion, voice is ridicolous, AoS is still a freaking good). My build revolves around:
24 Lands
4 Caryatid (Mana/Ramp)
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Thoughseize
3~4 Connections / Bones split (Raw CA)
16~18 Threats (Split of many 3~5 drops, I wish there was a obnoxious 6 drop in our colors)
6~8 Removal (decay, downfall, doomblade split)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not convinced of the blue splash.
The chimera is a 'ok' card but dying to jet and shock is not where we want our 4 drops to be, not playing midrange. The life gain is too incremental. Again, Whip of Erebos is a card that gives good life, it's hard to deal with (harder then creatures) and beast late game were you get all those dead big drops back to play packing extra punch.
Ashiok is pretty weak card overall. In this deck in your need to mill yourself twice to properly cast a creature and keep her around. It's 3 turn to make the card CA neutral. She would be a lot better if UBx had a abundance of worthy 1~3 drops but that's not the case. The way it is he's just a ultra bad and fragile half assed show and tell.
Sorry @Basher19 but people are not buying your blue splash tech. Mutilate is not the only reason to stick with two colors. Scry lands are bad and no one want to play many of those. Even control decks are going fast to two colors (even before rotation WU were stronger then WUR and Esper). I played a few hand with your deck in cockatrice and the mana base is atrocious.
Adding blue is a huge strike against the deck's consistency and adds little. I would say only Zigana is worthy and is still questionable in many match ups were she gets stuck in your hand (too slow) or goes down in a empty board (control after sweeping all day).
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
your incorrect, it has life gain in the form of whip, ooze, and in the build I have been testing trading post, which I forgot to mention in the earlier post. how exactly does Ashiok help the agro match up o_O mill 3 take your 2/2 okay......your agro match up isn't good because your mana base is to slow, for example I present this list.
4 Desecration Demon
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Savaging Ooze
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Whip Of Erebos
3 Trading Post
2 Thoughtsize
2 read the Bones
3 Gaze of the Gorgon
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Doom Blade
1 Putrefy
1 Heros Down Fall
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Underworld Connections
this build is better able to interact early then the 3 color build has a more stable mana base and can more easily survive to grind the game. of course this is just a quick build and not tuned yet as it was put together for testing reasons.
I overlooked the 0/3 completely forgot him, he makes the bug version easier to do, however, I still like the synergy of trading post/Erebos.
One shouldn't rely on her for extra colors. Verdict runs rampart those days...
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I said easier, not a great idea
bow is great but isn't right for this deck I don't believe, death touch is nice, but its only your attacking creatures have it. whip you can be defensive and block with reaper (which gains death touch if needed for B and whip gives unconditional life link. also the whips ability to resurrect guys that have died is pretty big. reanimating a desecration demon on a empty board and making a 12 point life swing is huge. even if they sac a dude to tap him down that's still a 4 mana flashback edict which isn't awful.
white is a idea. being able to interact with the RDWs that WILL see play early is important. I dislike rest in peace, however, since B/G plays a sort of minor reanimation theme with whip and completely shutting off half of whip just dosnt seem like a good idea to me.
Deathtouch is not so important in a midrange deck were you play fewer but stronger creatures. No creatures survives a combat with out creatures anyway. And life link is the opposite. The bigger your guys, better at breaking stalemates and delivering the punch you need to recover life.
Also despite it being 1 mana cheaper and fitting in the curve better, it requires constant influx of mana. Also the additional utility of Erebos Whip is incredibly strong vs. control. Countered Kalonian Hydra ? Take 8 next turn.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I completely forgot about Merchant because I either didn't read the spoilers close enough or it just went completely over my head when thinking about the Rock. Gray Merchant is a great 5 drop for us that fills in Thragtusk's role. In the only role missing is that of Disciple, the huge draw out of nowhere was hard to come by, but I think that Garruk, Calle of Beasts can fit that role somewhat. The lifegain from Whip + Merchant is enough to replace what was there, but I think that The Rock needs to find a strong CA engine before it's anywhere as good as it used to be. Because of my overlook of Merchant, I messed up and splashed blue where it wasn't required. With that said, I propose turning the above list into this:
4x Desecration Demon
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Lifebane Zombie
3x Gray Merchant of the Ashpodel
2x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Scavenging Ooze
Enchantments: 3
2x Underworld Connections
1x Primeval Bounty
1x Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Sorceries: 5
3x Read the Bones
2x Gaze of Granite
Artifacts: 2
2x Whip of Erebos
Instants: 7
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Putrefy
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Golgari Guildgate
2x Mutavault
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
5x Forest
9x Swamp
While I love Gaze of Granite as much as the next guy, I'm not sure that you want this in the deck. G/B I feel is going to go much more permanent based and GoG sweeps away to many of said cards.
While Gray Merchant of the Ashpodel may appear to be a Thragtusk filler, it is in fact not. Let's say that we are playing a mono red burn deck, and we managed to get a Lifebane Zombie into play. We play this guy, they are just going to burn the zombie away, so we gain only a couple life, then next turn they swing away anyway and we block, they burn out our creature and we have nothing really to show for it. What was so powerful about Thragtusk was that he not only gained 5 life guaranteed, he could block a creature or eat a burn spell and would replace himself. Against Control he would replace himself after a removal/sweeper. I just think that you are wasting your time here.
I would look at getting some 1CMC removal spells in here. While there isn't much to choose from currently (and not very good), against Gx decks running Elvish Mystic its going to be key and we want a way to remove other aggro one drops. To fill this role we have either Viper's Kiss or Wring Flesh. I would personally look at going with Viper's Kiss because it could be useful late game.
As for Garruk, Caller of Beasts, I don't think that you are running enough creatures for him. With only 18 creatures (30%) in the deck, you will be whiffing way to much with him, and you don't have any big scary green creatures to drop into play against aggro if you need to get a creature into play or to sneak one past a counterspell.
All that said, I really do think that GB has a future in the upcoming Standard. This is the deck that I am looking at building/testing:
2x Sylvan Primordial
1x Arbor Colossus
3x Shadowborn Demon
3x Reaper of the Wilds
3x Polukranos, World Eater
4x Desecration Demon
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
4x Manaweft Sliver
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2x Whip of Erebos
2x Bow of Nylea
2x Viper's Kiss
Spells - 2
2x Hero's Downfall
Land - 24
4x Golgari Guildgate
4x Overgrown Tomb
8x Forest
8x Swamp
1x Sylvan Primordial
2x Primeval Bounty
2x Arbor Colossus
2x Vraska the Unseen
2x Putrefy
2x Viper's Kiss
4x Thoughtseize
This deck is more of a ramp deck, since I want to get a big 4 drop into play on turn 3.
To make Garruk, Caller of Beasts a major threat, I've decided to utilize more creatures like Shadowborn Demon, Arbor Colossus, and Polukranos, World Eater that do stuff when either entering play or effect the board at a later stage in the game. This way I can insure that I draw more cards off of him and as well give myself options of dropping a creature into play if need be.
Arbor Colossus is here because I expect to see lots of Desecration Demons in the upcoming Standard Season. That is as well why Sylvan Primordial is here, but he can also take out opposing planeswalkers or something. Shadowborn Demon is my Murder on a stick that I can draw off of Garruk, Caller of Beasts and can see play fast with the ramp. Polukranos, World Eater is another potential powerful card. I could very easily see this on turn 4 pumping for 2, eating their early drop(s) and then swinging for 7.
So anyway, there is the deck that I've brewed in my brain. After some playtesting I'm sure something's will change.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
Nykthos, Shrine of Nyx is in the deck as a 1-of because The Rock has a high devotion to black with all of the permanetns that have BB in their costs which help in using Gaze of Granite effectively. The reason Gaze works in this deck is that our major players (excluding Ooze) are 4CMC and above while Gaze will be able to hit everything 3 and under to wipe most of the board of an aggro deck.
2 Lord of the Void
4 Nemesis of Mortals
2 Desecration Demon
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Grisly Savage
3 Rescue From the Underworld
3 Whip of Erebos
8 self mill options, which will fill your GY with resources to reanimate, decrease Nemesis' cost and allow Shaman to ramp. Commune also allows you to get the Whip.
4 Finishers (Lord/Giant) that have evasion and will leave resources behind (besides the 7 life) after the single hit the Whip gives you (one of their creatures or a 7/7 trample token that makes tokens as well).
6 Mid-size roadblocks (Demon and Nemesis) that can win you the game even if you do not reanimate anything.
8 mana dorks, being Shaman much more than that.
6 Reanimation spells.
4 Self-discard outlet in the form of Troll, which can also hold aggro or apply pressure on control.
I like the deck and it might be viable for FNM if people start to forget GY hate thinking reanimation is gone for good. Is this worth testing?
GB reanimator isn't as good as the Junk version because the Junk version has powerful options from white to run such as AoS, Blood Baron, Voice. While this deck might be viable at FNM, at a competitive FNM or larger tournament, it wouldn't be able to do much.
I will be here a lot more once Theros hits Modo.
Deathrite Shaman
This card is not out of place in this format. If you are using him to gain 2 life against aggro, you will, eventually, regain your footing. I believe there is a fetch land we could be utilizing turn 1, granted, ETBT, so does a guildgate. It would activate all three of this cards abilities. This will live through our Golgari Charm -1/-1 effect as well as adding to the devotion count. I think this is easily worth consideration. I think this card really strengthens our aggro matchup, more so against the explosive aggro decks.
There is a reason DRS (a card i really like) isnt anywhere near on the level of scavenging ooze. He cant be activated the turn he comes down, his ramp unless you're a salvage type deck is obsolete, and he never gets bigger. In a format where magma jet is back, i assure you he will not get far. Where atleast ooze is something that can grow out of hand, where DRS cant. As for our best defense vs aggro, Sylvan Caryatid ranks pretty high up there, where he can chump most of the early aggressive beaters until we can get a 4 drop into play (which he also makes happen faster.). I'd say another good anti aggro card would in my opinion is Pharika's Cure. I wish we still had VNH in standard, im sure going to miss that little guy.
I do agree that Magma Jet will be a staple, and something we will all have to deal with. I also agree that I want a new Vampire Nighthawk. I think if my Deathrite Shaman pulls a Magma Jet out of my opponents hand, I've Duressed the burn from their hand, which removes that card from going to my face. In the red aggro match, that matters. I still think this card will win me games Sylvan Carytid would be a dead draw on. I think Deathrite Shaman adds more reach than our supposed Thragtusk replacement. I suppose we could add Brindle Boar to the list just because if resolved, gains us more life at once, and resembles RB.
I agree that the really quick aggro decks will cause issue. This is my exact reason for including cards like Deathrite Shaman. The decks in reference really run out of gas after maybe the 6-7th creature drop. This would put us on turn 4-6. Deathrite Shaman adds value to our removal suite. One removal spell is 2 activations. I don't think I would have such an easy fight against these decks without Deathrite Shaman. Golgari Charm really helps in these matchups as well, allowing us time to set a good Gaze of Granite. Deathrite Shaman lives through the -1/-1 as well. I think he serves a functionally different roll than Scavenging Ooze. I would recommend any of my fellow B/g players to test a list with this guy against an RDW list or WW. I challenge you to try him against an RDW, G/W, and WW list and see how you feel.
After that we drop creatures that effect the board state. Then we refill our hands.
Look for me on MTGO, sslater
Follow me on Twitter, @slatertheman
My youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/sslater22710
Theory remains untested. Unfortunately I've been playing my personal list with Deathrite Shaman, not theorizing on it. Way to post untruths though without any actual testing.
Read your own post. Where are your results with both DRS and/or Gray? Did you consider what you had wrote to be falsified, rude, and rhetoric? In one post full of no actual composition you've made me look like the information, and time I've invested was for naught.
As far as Gray is concerned, I am more than happy to adjust accordingly, I just don't think the turn 4-5 lifegain is as reliable as I would like. I do apologize if calling him the "Supposed replacement" caused you any offence.
What happens when a removal spell is cast in response to Gray merchant of Asphodel? Have you played any games where you just haven't had any permanants in play at the point of the game where you needed the ETB ability to resolve? Have you played him against any quick aggro lists?
The facts are, Deathrite Shaman can produce a desirable effect, with a simple mana investment. It dying to removal means a lot less when the card is at cost with Duress. I must agree that a Whip of Erebos+Gray Merchant of Asphodel does feel great, I'd rather swing with a Desecration Demon or a Reaper of the Wilds with lifelink in that situation. Yes, Gray Merchant of Asphodel has great ETB effect, however, in a Control shell, I would prefer to invest in a 1 drop which can create an equally desirable, and functionally identical effect.
I am thinking about using Bow of Nylea with Polukranos, World Eater. Attack, go monsterous, deathtouch ping a couple dudes away.
I also think that Deathrite Shaman COULD be more impactful this time around than in the INN-RTR standard. But he's not a T1 play, so I don't need 3 or 4 of him. Rather 1 or 2. Red is getting some really nice land-D in this set, which may let you use DRS's mana ability, but that's just the icing. The real upside is his late-game reach in a stalled board or when both players are top-decking. A shock per turn adds up in those situations. All that said, this list is rather creature heavy and he'd be the first cut if I need to jam more removal.
I'm still on the Lifebane train. G/W looks like a very strong archetype heading into the unknown meta, Intimidate is wonderful, and it never hurts to see an opponent's hand, even if you can't rip something out of it.
I feel like this list needs X copies of Golgari Charm somewhere in the 75, but I haven't put them in yet. Perhaps 2 in the side replacing a Gaze and a Ratchet Bomb.
2x Deathrite Shaman
4x Desecration Demon
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Lifebane Zombie
4x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Sylvan Caryatid
Sorcery (7)
2x Gaze of Granite
2x Read the Bones
3x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Doom Blade
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Putrefy
Enchantment (1)
1x Whip of Erebos
Land (24)
4x Forest
4x Golgari Guildgate
4x Overgrown Tomb
12x Swamp
3x Dark Betrayal
2x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Gaze of Granite
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Putrefy
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Underworld Connections
2x Vraska the Unseen
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero