This is where I'm currently at after some more testing. The added draw made a massive difference and I've been pretty happy with the spell setup so far.
With 4 Steam Augurys do you find yourself getting cut out of win cons a lot? Especially with only 1 Aetherling?
To elaborate if you carefully look at my list you would see that the Spiral IS both a win con and a solution to Augury's discard. Losing a Aetherling simply doesn't matter, even more so when I can simply EoT Spiral you, potentially either milling you out or simply recouping already used spells.
This is where I'm currently at after some more testing. The added draw made a massive difference and I've been pretty happy with the spell setup so far.
My question lies with the exclusion of red spells such as Anger of the Gods while running only 2 essence mainboard, how are your aggro matchups?
And without the inclusion of an early scry two like new augur or magma jet how are you on mulligans?
Also, Do you deal with plainswalkers? I only see 3 ways of removing them in total.
2 Scatters, 3 Devour Flesh, 3 Syncopates, Far//Away, counters, rift in the main. Cure/ Staticaster from the board. I have more ways of dealing with aggro than you gives me credit for. As for AotG, if I cannot reliabily cast my removal on curve, it does not matter how powerful the card is.
Walkers tend to be dealt with rift and counters handily enough, although I should make space for a few more Downfalls in the board.
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And I see that you prefer devour over doomblade or price.
Have you tested with these cards?
If so, could you explain to me why you chose to run edicts over them?
(My deck is looking pretty bad right now and that's why I'm asking :P)
I like the list, TOG. The Spiral intrigued me when you posted it in the old thread and I think I'm going to give it a shot as well. It feels weird dedicating two slots to a card that makes Steam Auguryless bad, but the fact that it's instant speed and a potential wincon out of nowhere probably merits testing. Props for the out of the box thinking on that one.
TBH, Steam Augury is killing me anyway. I'm finding it a challenge to get the cards you need. It's probably lack of experience or bad reverse-psycology on my part, but it becomes double-bad if you've been Thoughtseized, Sin Collectored or Duressed. It becomes an easy decision then for the opponent to choose the worse of the two piles.
Curious why Jace, AOT seems to be a fringe selection in a lot of these lists? I've found him to be a critical piece in the draw engine. You have to tap for him but he can also slow the opponent down in their race against Ashiok if you have to go that route. I'm LOVING Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, BTW. If they can't race or quickly find the Dreadbore or the new 1BB instant, Auriok gets out of hand quickly. Ganking Brecks the turn after he comes down has been a ball.
Steam Augury is one of those cards I do not really like as a 4 of. It is just kind of a deal sealer when you cast it EOT, because you are getting more fuel that just shuts the opponent out. When you flip over 3+ counter then roll into Ashiok or AEtherling with enough mana open, it is kind of just over.
Inspiration/Thoughtflare/Opportunity is for finding your outs.
TBH, Steam Augury is killing me anyway. I'm finding it a challenge to get the cards you need. It's probably lack of experience or bad reverse-psycology on my part, but it becomes double-bad if you've been Thoughtseized, Sin Collectored or Duressed. It becomes an easy decision then for the opponent to choose the worse of the two piles.
Curious why Jace, AOT seems to be a fringe selection in a lot of these lists? I've found him to be a critical piece in the draw engine.
I think Jace will end up as a 3 or 4-of in successful lists. Steam Augury seems closer to a Jace's Ingenuity than an actual Fact or Fiction. The card fits contemporary R&D design since it c-blocks players that are trying to "go big" or be "unfair", by serving very poorly as a card selection spell. I don't think it's as strong in an actual Control shell as it is in a Tempo shell. I'd suspect Augury to either be huge in a breakout Izzet deck or eventually give way to multiple copies of Architect of Thought, instead.
Not that I don't think the card is good. I'll definitely be trying it out.
I really want to play tap-out with our card selection, which Read the Bones would force us into alongside Jace, AOT, Niv, Anger of the Gods, and Master of Cruelties.
If I want to play draw-go, I think I'd want to stick with UB. You still have access to planeswalker removal (Murrrdduuuurrrrbooooorreeeee), counters, and some pseudos-sweepers (do we even need them?) all at instant speed. Bingo bango.
People are acting like tokens won't be a thing. What were generally the top two decks people were playing in block? Generally Selesnya and RDW. RDW is probably difficult for us but as long as you're packing cheap removal it shouldn't be an automatic lose (or maybe it's a good matchup for us with cheap burn and Staticaster in the SB, really this matchup is dependent on your deck and not a general outcome every single person playing Grixis Control). Selesnya should be a blowout. Play bounce spells MD. At bare minimum, it lets you set up for late game.
Draw-go seems like it needs Inspiration. I really want to play Omenspeaker in draw-go since I always lose the die roll against aggro decks. Their two drop is so important and if I'm on the play I just don't have an option to deal with it until the next turn. Turn 3 for RDW can be 11 damage [Denizen, Emissary, Fire-Fister, Phoenix] (keep mind we're at 2 mana). Like jeez, maybe I counter Phoenix. Omenspeaker might (with Fire-Fister in mind) be a roadblock. Maybe. But probably we just need to play a sorcery speed sweeper (see Anger of the Gods). Which would incline me torwards not playing draw-go.
This is where I'm currently at after some more testing. The added draw made a massive difference and I've been pretty happy with the spell setup so far.
I really like the look of the above list, can we get some testing data down?
In my opinion having lost Snapcaster Mage we have two directions we can go in, one is the above, I.e. loads of instant speed card draw, the other is a list with 3+ Jace.
The draw suite is the first thing to look at, most lists people are posting skimp in this area and are therefore pretty bad starts, I'd include the current primer as an example of getting this wrong both the card choice advice and the example list.
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
Tapout control would need a shift in your removal to be successful. Dreadbore, Hero's Downfall, Turn//Burn, Far/Away. Mortars. These would be your go to cards. Tapping out is a dangerous in the sense that it if what you are tapping out for is not more powerful than whatever your opponent can follow up with, and conversely you can follow up with, then your removal simply has to be able to handle important threats that will slip through.
Using the stock Block Constructed lists as your base should give you a general idea of how your Tapout list would go about working.
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I really like the look of the above list, can we get some testing data down?
In my opinion having lost Snapcaster Mage we have two directions we can go in, one is the above, I.e. loads of instant speed card draw, the other is a list with 3+ Jace.
The draw suite is the first thing to look at, most lists people are posting skimp in this area and are therefore pretty bad starts.
TBH I'm fine with my draw being so high on my curve as my removal and counter curve is quite low. Two of the most important aspects I've found is how and when to use your different draw spells.
A simple example and something that has happened more often than not is casting Augury or Inspiration in response to what your opponent plays based on the outs already in your hand and the mana available to you. Plenty of times now I've drawn into the removal/counter I needed to respond to opposing plays. Augury is also much better than people give it credit for as in my list for example any number of removal/draw/counters in multiples are good piles and even then splitting the piles to get something good either way happens way more than you'd think. Hands down the strongest card in the deck.
Spiral has been pretty sweet with how it works with the rest of the list. It's not something you work for, spells naturally land in your yard as you counter/remove threats. Add the cards drawn over the course of a game, counters milling a few cards, Ashiok harassing opponents for value and even draw like Thoughtflare. These are all stuff that naturally happens during a single game. Add the absurd amount of digging you are capable of and all it takes is a well timed Spiral to mill them out on the spot. And if they still have cards left? Well you just restocked on all the removal, counters and draw you have already spent and the virtual card advantage presented can simply bury most other lists.
Midrange/Control have been strong MU's so far as you simply run more counters and draw than any of them and all of their removal is all but useless. The fact that you can board into disruption and even more counters makes it truly scary as you also have to keep in mind that you not only have Ashiok who can pressure slower decks early on but you also still have a very strong endgame in Aetherling and Jace, Memory Adept.
Aggro is definitively your softest MU but because of the general low curve of your answers you definitively aren't a dog to them either. Post board Staticasters, Cure's and lower curve removal go a long way in improving this MU greatly.
At least that's my experience from playing the deck so far.
But by all means, test the deck, improve it, criticize it. Regardless of the lists we eventually settle on and as have been mentioned no two Grixis lists tend to look the same, but the more data we have and the more perspectives we have it from, the better we'll be for it in the long run.
And I see that you prefer devour over doomblade or price.
Have you tested with these cards?
If so, could you explain to me why you chose to run edicts over them?
(My deck is looking pretty bad right now and that's why I'm asking :P)
Simple, they hit everything.
You can generally counter or remove anything from turn 2 onward while Devour Flesh and Far/Away can act as a crutch if anything should slip through. You can always have some mix of Doom Blade/Price in the side to bring in to improve the overall quality of your removal if you need to. Avoiding colour protection and any indestructibility shenanigans also goes a long way in favor of more streamlined removal. .
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This is where I'm currently at after some more testing. The added draw made a massive difference and I've been pretty happy with the spell setup so far.
Indeed, I came to the same conclusion that 11 draw spells seems to be the right number.
I'm a little worried about the number of red sources in your mana base. Mainboard, you need R on turn 4 but you only have 11 red sources. Running the numbers, you have 8.5% (once every 12 games) chance of not having your red source with 4 draws. Increasing red sources by 1 improves it to 6.6% (once every 15), and so on:
Yes the mana still needs some work, that being said I have yet to not have my sources when I needed them. Do keep in mind that Staticaster merely compliments my other removal and I'll generally have enough to get there. I would largely ignore the SB for now though as that is mostly me experimenting as I go along.
Turn/Burn is simply a weaker card than Far//Away or your other options in general. Its applications against Gods might deserve more looking into but unless they see more widespread play than the few utiliy slots here and there like predicted, then your counters should be enough imo.
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Ok, ok ok.
Here's my problem after moving to the red splash version instead of the more red oriented build I used to have.
Is that I have no removal when I need it.
I have all the draw I could ever want But I never seem to come into removal.
Is Anyone else feeling this?
Hey TOG, how fast do you win your games? With only 1 AEtherling and Ashiok as win conditions it seems to me like the matches would be a grind-fest. How viable do you think it is in a tournament setting? One issue I had with grixis is tying because I couldn't win fast enough.
Hey TOG, how fast do you win your games? With only 1 AEtherling and Ashiok as win conditions it seems to me like the matches would be a grind-fest. How viable do you think it is in a tournament setting? One issue I had with grixis is tying because I couldn't win fast enough.
Ok, ok ok.
Here's my problem after moving to the red splash version instead of the more red oriented build I used to have.
Is that I have no removal when I need it.
I have all the draw I could ever want But I never seem to come into removal.
Is Anyone else feeling this?
Just as an example, my list runs 4 Far//Away, 3 Devour Flesh, 1 Rift, 1 Downfall, Essence scatters and syncopates. Not to mention what you could be bringing in post board. How is removal a problem? Simply curious as my results seem quite different from yours.
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Just as an example, my list runs 4 Far//Away, 3 Devour Flesh, 1 Rift, 1 Downfall, Essence scatters and syncopates. Not to mention what you could be bringing in post board. How is removal a problem? Simply curious as my results seem quite different from yours.
My deck at the time (I've changed it since) 3 Far//Away 2 Turn//Burn 1 Hero's Downfall 1 Cyclonic Rift
So same density, I played against mono black deck, and after the changes to my original list I didn't seem to have enough answers. :/
I was thinking about adding more, But then dead draws aren't fun against pre-board control.
I always seem to hit draws and never hit counters or removal...
4 Inspiration
2 Opportunity
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Steam Augury
Not too much draw...
I really don't know, maybe bad luck...
This is what I've been working with. I only run 9 draw spells in steam, jace, and opportunity, but the hefty amount of scry lets me filter my draws a bit more effectively. I'm not sure which planeswalker killer is better or if I want them main or not, but my current reasoning for Dreadbore over Hero's Downfall is that I didn't want a double blue 3 cmc, a double red 3 cmc, and a double black 3 cmc in the deck at the same time (Potentially). Dreadbore is a bit easier on the mana even though it's sorcery speed.
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With 4 Steam Augurys do you find yourself getting cut out of win cons a lot? Especially with only 1 Aetherling?
To elaborate if you carefully look at my list you would see that the Spiral IS both a win con and a solution to Augury's discard. Losing a Aetherling simply doesn't matter, even more so when I can simply EoT Spiral you, potentially either milling you out or simply recouping already used spells.
My question lies with the exclusion of red spells such as Anger of the Gods while running only 2 essence mainboard, how are your aggro matchups?
And without the inclusion of an early scry two like new augur or magma jet how are you on mulligans?
Also, Do you deal with plainswalkers? I only see 3 ways of removing them in total.
Walkers tend to be dealt with rift and counters handily enough, although I should make space for a few more Downfalls in the board.
Have you tested with these cards?
If so, could you explain to me why you chose to run edicts over them?
(My deck is looking pretty bad right now and that's why I'm asking :P)
TBH, Steam Augury is killing me anyway. I'm finding it a challenge to get the cards you need. It's probably lack of experience or bad reverse-psycology on my part, but it becomes double-bad if you've been Thoughtseized, Sin Collectored or Duressed. It becomes an easy decision then for the opponent to choose the worse of the two piles.
Curious why Jace, AOT seems to be a fringe selection in a lot of these lists? I've found him to be a critical piece in the draw engine. You have to tap for him but he can also slow the opponent down in their race against Ashiok if you have to go that route. I'm LOVING Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, BTW. If they can't race or quickly find the Dreadbore or the new 1BB instant, Auriok gets out of hand quickly. Ganking Brecks the turn after he comes down has been a ball.
Inspiration/Thoughtflare/Opportunity is for finding your outs.
I think Jace will end up as a 3 or 4-of in successful lists. Steam Augury seems closer to a Jace's Ingenuity than an actual Fact or Fiction. The card fits contemporary R&D design since it c-blocks players that are trying to "go big" or be "unfair", by serving very poorly as a card selection spell. I don't think it's as strong in an actual Control shell as it is in a Tempo shell. I'd suspect Augury to either be huge in a breakout Izzet deck or eventually give way to multiple copies of Architect of Thought, instead.
Not that I don't think the card is good. I'll definitely be trying it out.
If I want to play draw-go, I think I'd want to stick with UB. You still have access to planeswalker removal (Murrrdduuuurrrrbooooorreeeee), counters, and some pseudos-sweepers (do we even need them?) all at instant speed. Bingo bango.
People are acting like tokens won't be a thing. What were generally the top two decks people were playing in block? Generally Selesnya and RDW. RDW is probably difficult for us but as long as you're packing cheap removal it shouldn't be an automatic lose (or maybe it's a good matchup for us with cheap burn and Staticaster in the SB, really this matchup is dependent on your deck and not a general outcome every single person playing Grixis Control). Selesnya should be a blowout. Play bounce spells MD. At bare minimum, it lets you set up for late game.
Draw-go seems like it needs Inspiration. I really want to play Omenspeaker in draw-go since I always lose the die roll against aggro decks. Their two drop is so important and if I'm on the play I just don't have an option to deal with it until the next turn. Turn 3 for RDW can be 11 damage [Denizen, Emissary, Fire-Fister, Phoenix] (keep mind we're at 2 mana). Like jeez, maybe I counter Phoenix. Omenspeaker might (with Fire-Fister in mind) be a roadblock. Maybe. But probably we just need to play a sorcery speed sweeper (see Anger of the Gods). Which would incline me torwards not playing draw-go.
In my opinion having lost Snapcaster Mage we have two directions we can go in, one is the above, I.e. loads of instant speed card draw, the other is a list with 3+ Jace.
The draw suite is the first thing to look at, most lists people are posting skimp in this area and are therefore pretty bad starts, I'd include the current primer as an example of getting this wrong both the card choice advice and the example list.
Using the stock Block Constructed lists as your base should give you a general idea of how your Tapout list would go about working.
TBH I'm fine with my draw being so high on my curve as my removal and counter curve is quite low. Two of the most important aspects I've found is how and when to use your different draw spells.
A simple example and something that has happened more often than not is casting Augury or Inspiration in response to what your opponent plays based on the outs already in your hand and the mana available to you. Plenty of times now I've drawn into the removal/counter I needed to respond to opposing plays. Augury is also much better than people give it credit for as in my list for example any number of removal/draw/counters in multiples are good piles and even then splitting the piles to get something good either way happens way more than you'd think. Hands down the strongest card in the deck.
Spiral has been pretty sweet with how it works with the rest of the list. It's not something you work for, spells naturally land in your yard as you counter/remove threats. Add the cards drawn over the course of a game, counters milling a few cards, Ashiok harassing opponents for value and even draw like Thoughtflare. These are all stuff that naturally happens during a single game. Add the absurd amount of digging you are capable of and all it takes is a well timed Spiral to mill them out on the spot. And if they still have cards left? Well you just restocked on all the removal, counters and draw you have already spent and the virtual card advantage presented can simply bury most other lists.
Midrange/Control have been strong MU's so far as you simply run more counters and draw than any of them and all of their removal is all but useless. The fact that you can board into disruption and even more counters makes it truly scary as you also have to keep in mind that you not only have Ashiok who can pressure slower decks early on but you also still have a very strong endgame in Aetherling and Jace, Memory Adept.
Aggro is definitively your softest MU but because of the general low curve of your answers you definitively aren't a dog to them either. Post board Staticasters, Cure's and lower curve removal go a long way in improving this MU greatly.
At least that's my experience from playing the deck so far.
But by all means, test the deck, improve it, criticize it. Regardless of the lists we eventually settle on and as have been mentioned no two Grixis lists tend to look the same, but the more data we have and the more perspectives we have it from, the better we'll be for it in the long run.
Simple, they hit everything.
You can generally counter or remove anything from turn 2 onward while Devour Flesh and Far/Away can act as a crutch if anything should slip through. You can always have some mix of Doom Blade/Price in the side to bring in to improve the overall quality of your removal if you need to. Avoiding colour protection and any indestructibility shenanigans also goes a long way in favor of more streamlined removal. .
Indeed, I came to the same conclusion that 11 draw spells seems to be the right number.
I'm a little worried about the number of red sources in your mana base. Mainboard, you need R on turn 4 but you only have 11 red sources. Running the numbers, you have 8.5% (once every 12 games) chance of not having your red source with 4 draws. Increasing red sources by 1 improves it to 6.6% (once every 15), and so on:
11 : 8.5%
12 : 6.6%
13 : 5.1%
14 : 3.9%
15 : 3.0%
16 : 2.2%
17 : 1.7%
18 : 1.2%
Beware that this doesn't take into account CIPT problems.
In your sideboard, you have Izzet Staticaster, which can't be cast on turn 3 with the following probabilities (again ignoring CIPT):
11 : 10.9%
12 : 8.7%
13 : 6.9%
14 : 5.4%
15 : 4.2%
16 : 3.3%
17 : 2.5%
18 : 2.0%
No Turn // Burn? It deals with Gods by killing them and can be removal as well.
Just a thought.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Here's my problem after moving to the red splash version instead of the more red oriented build I used to have.
Is that I have no removal when I need it.
I have all the draw I could ever want But I never seem to come into removal.
Is Anyone else feeling this?
Psychic Spiral. That usually kills in one shot.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Just as an example, my list runs 4 Far//Away, 3 Devour Flesh, 1 Rift, 1 Downfall, Essence scatters and syncopates. Not to mention what you could be bringing in post board. How is removal a problem? Simply curious as my results seem quite different from yours.
This has led to a few giggles in my test group so far.
Taps mana: "Oh god is he drawing cards or decking me?"
Deffinitely one of the more amusing ways to end a game imo.
My deck at the time (I've changed it since) 3 Far//Away 2 Turn//Burn 1 Hero's Downfall 1 Cyclonic Rift
So same density, I played against mono black deck, and after the changes to my original list I didn't seem to have enough answers. :/
I was thinking about adding more, But then dead draws aren't fun against pre-board control.
I always seem to hit draws and never hit counters or removal...
4 Inspiration
2 Opportunity
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Steam Augury
Not too much draw...
I really don't know, maybe bad luck...
2 AEtherling
Counters 10:
2 Syncopate
3 Psychic Strike
3 Essence Scatter
2 Dissolve
Draw 8:
4 Inspiration
2 Opportunity
2 Steam Augury
Removal 7:
3 Far // Away
2 Turn // Burn
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Swamp
4 Island
4 Blood Crypt
4 Watery Grave
4 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Mutavault
Walkers 5:
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
Mill 2:
2 Psychic Spiral
4x Blood Crypt
3x Island
2x Izzet Guildgate
3x Mountain
2x Rakdos Guildgate
4x Steam Vents
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (5)
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3x Jace, Architect of Thought
3x Anger of the Gods
Instant (19)
3x Devour Flesh
2x Dissolve
3x Essence Scatter
2x Izzet Charm
3x Magma Jet
2x Opportunity
4x Steam Augury
Creature (5)
2x AEtherling
3x Omenspeaker
2x Whip of Erebos
1x Anger of the Gods
3x Annul
2x Cyclonic Rift
1x Dissolve
3x Dreadbore
2x Negate
3x Thoughtseize
This is what I've been working with. I only run 9 draw spells in steam, jace, and opportunity, but the hefty amount of scry lets me filter my draws a bit more effectively. I'm not sure which planeswalker killer is better or if I want them main or not, but my current reasoning for Dreadbore over Hero's Downfall is that I didn't want a double blue 3 cmc, a double red 3 cmc, and a double black 3 cmc in the deck at the same time (Potentially). Dreadbore is a bit easier on the mana even though it's sorcery speed.