Soooooo I've like, done nothing for this thread since posting it...I feel kinda bad lol. I'm very glad people are making so much use of it! I've been doing some decent testing lately with both mono black aggro and rakdos (both mostly online). I was planning on going to SCG Detroit with the rakdos version, but chickened out at the last moment lol. Neither was putting up great results for me. However the B/R version has been testing better, tbh, than the mono black version, despite making little to no use of burn and cards like madcap skills.
As you can see the decks are fairly similar. The sideboards for both include some amount of Duress (I think 4 in both), and more Devour Flesh for hexproof/Blood Baron decks. The Duress has been invaluable for not only control MU's, but for burn, which is almost unwinnable g1 in my experience, and against which Thoughtseize is fairly bad - still worth casting, but barely. Both decks also have some form of life gain tech in the board: Mono black has 2x crypt incursion (great vs. burn, so long as you play around skullcrack), and my BR plays 2-3 Tablet of the Guilds (which is insane against burn, and red decks in general - gaining 2 life from almost every cards you play wins games). Even WITH all the anti burn tech however, it's still I feel a very bad MU. How is everyone else fairing with that, in testing?
Like I said, I've personally been having much better luck with the rakdos version, and I've yet to put my finger on the reason why. Dreadbore is great there, but I think the main difference is that it has a minor boost to versatility from red. In the main, this is from the 4x Shock (which is great vs an aggro mirror, another bad MU), and the fact that several more of our guys have haste of course really puts the pressure on as early as turn 2, vs any deck, really.
Apart from that, I've spent a lot of time over the last couple weeks tuning both versions to be stronger, and I think I did a fairly good job, though not perfect by any means. I'm finding the 3x Pain Seer, 3x Spiteful Returned is vastly preferable to having each as a 4-of. I never really want 2-3 Pain Seers out, EXCEPT vs. control... and even then D-Sphere is bad lol. And I never really want to cast SR, hence why I again don't want 4. I almost always want him just top bestow. I'd only really cast him on t2 in either version if I have no other 2-drop, and I'm setting up for Marauder.
Additionally and most importantly, I've become a huge advocate of not having Thoughtseize anywhere in the main. Game 1, I simple want to curve out, remove their threats/blockers and kill them. I also don't want TS against aggro or burn. So I much prefer it in the side, and even there only as a 2 or 3-of. This could be a mistake - however, I found my performance with both decks improved when I made this change in particular. If I do return any to the main, it won't be more than 3, as I really never want it as a topdeck, at least not past t3 or t4 or so.
Apart from all that, I think it's obvious we're getting some great new cards for this archetype in JOU. Master of the Feast, and Gnarled Scarhide in particular (we're allowed to discuss spoilers now, right? If not I apologize, I didn't check).
Personally I don't like this deck to curve up to 4 with DDemon. I mean, it really already does with bestow, but then those cards are much more versatile. But I'll be the first to admit I've only tested with Dessy for a few odd rounds.
As for Brain Maggot, when I first saw the card I thought "Oh great! A reprint of a good card, but much, much worse!". And it is much worse, although it does only cost 1B, not BW. However the more I think about it, I think it still miiiiight find a home in the SB against Gruul (a deck with little removal - take their Domri from their hand and they have a huge problem, especially if you follow up with LBZ). Also, it seems great against mono U, who has even fewer ways to remove it, and you can always TAKE one of those ways away from them. Or, ya know, a Thassa, Master of Waves... My main issue with the card is of course that it's not very aggressive, but at least it can still pull some weight with bestow or Marauder!
Thank you for the reply!
DD is the top as if i need to drop Spiteful Returned earlier then the 4cmc slot is empty, and, in the past found him to be amazing
As for Brain Maggot, when I first saw the card I thought "Oh great! A reprint of a good card, but much, much worse!". And it is much worse, although it does only cost 1B, not BW.
ANYWHO cheekyness aside I'm pretty sure for Mono B that the two biggest changes are going to be Master of the Feast and Gnarled Scarhide. Scarhide gives us more power in either a creature, or bestow AND allows us to throw it on their creature to get around which I am fine racing a +2 on my opponents creature if I can kill them faster. Not to mention that should we start losing the race and have to kill their bestowed creature, we get our scarhide back.
My deck POST Journey:
I'm gonna try out 3 masters MB, might end up at 2 but its really hard to pass up a 5/5 flyer for 3, downside be damned.
Yes, you are reading that sideboard correctly, I do have 2 Doomwake Giant in the SB. Why? Well his dad Noxious Ghoul was a good sideboard card, in eating all the little things and is hard target to burn out. I am running a grand total of 13 MB enchantments and after sideboard I can go up to a whopping 20. Activating his constellation won't be hard, once again it even counts when I bestow scarhide onto a creature (since we still control the enchantment). Granted that many enchantments makes me soft to enchantment removal that people are probably gonna MB but I don't see people bringing too much in if any at all against me.
Switching from Duress to the Maggot makes me a little softer against burn but devour flesh and whip are *supposed* to help against that.
I'm still liking pain seer for a good 2 drop. Shred Freak always under performed and if they kill my pain seer its 1 less removal for master or herald.
I dropped the cackler for scarhide instead of the hero since we have so many bestows his heroic is better then the cackler's occasional blocking power.
Have I said how much I like scarhide yet?
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"We cannot join. We cannot rest. Our lives, our souls, endure. We have been returned."
Standard RBUGrixis Tutelage BR Devoid Beatdown Modern RAffinity B 8 Rack Legacy 0 Dredge EDH RBBladewing's Zombie Dragons BUGRW Sliver Legion's Overrun
^I'm not a huge fan of Thoughtseize on this deck. I haven't had much luck with it and I'm never happy to see it after turn 1. Yes it's powerful but in a deck like this you would really rather be applying pressure than casting this turn 1.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
^I'm not a huge fan of Thoughtseize on this deck. I haven't had much luck with it and I'm never happy to see it after turn 1. Yes it's powerful but in a deck like this you would really rather be applying pressure than casting this turn 1.
As much as I love Thoughtseize I agree with this. It needs to be in the sideboard for control decks, to rip their Verdicts/major removal spells that would otherwise ruin our day.
What do people think of replacing the 4 MB Thoughtseize with 4 MB Brain Maggot? Sure it can be removed, but I would much rather have my opponent spend their removal on this than on one of my threats. And being able to strip a Supreme Verdict from my opponent's hand is pretty good. Plus we can bestow on it, attack with it. So it can also apply small amounts of pressure. It can also strip creatures from opposing aggro decks and planeswalkers from midrange decks.
As for Brain Maggot, when I first saw the card I thought "Oh great! A reprint of a good card, but much, much worse!". And it is much worse, although it does only cost 1B, not BW.
Woops! I was (obviously) thinking of something else. I also thought that "something" was a 2/1 lol. Thanks!
That aside, I think we'll have some decisions to make regarding sb slots devoted to discard/hand disruption. The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to doubt the power of Brain Maggot, at least in the meta as we know it. Seems pretty bad vs. any deck playing removal. Against burn, it's miserable. Same with MBD (though of course we wouldn't bring it in against them). I should clarify; I see no reason to play it over either Duress OR Thoughtseize, in anywhere. However, I often find problems simply filling my last 2-3 sb slots with black aggro. While I often jam them with Dark Betrayals or something, I find I usually don't need them. Brain Maggot could maybe fill those slots, at least vs. Colossal Gruul, where it seems at it's best. But there are other situations where maggot can shine, I'm sure. particularly against anything playing a low instant-speed removal count, like current U/W. Say you maggot their hand (it's a verb now), and see their only removal is D-sphere, verdict. Take their Verdict and they could very well die before finding another answer, or being able to play the one they had. I still feel it's a risky play either way though, with all the scry in the format; they could easily have another verdict on top, in which case you're spent a turn AND a card doing pretty much nothing. And of course, last breath is a card...
Overall, I think Brain Maggot is a card I'd have to see doing well before I think it can do well. I'm not really a fan at present. But it does pair well with Thoughtseize itself, so we'll have to wait and see.
As for Brain Maggot, when I first saw the card I thought "Oh great! A reprint of a good card, but much, much worse!". And it is much worse, although it does only cost 1B, not BW.
Woops! I was (obviously) thinking of something else. I also thought that "something" was a 2/1 lol. Thanks!
That aside, I think we'll have some decisions to make regarding sb slots devoted to discard/hand disruption. The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to doubt the power of Brain Maggot, at least in the meta as we know it. Seems pretty bad vs. any deck playing removal. Against burn, it's miserable. Same with MBD (though of course we wouldn't bring it in against them). I should clarify; I see no reason to play it over either Duress OR Thoughtseize, in anywhere. However, I often find problems simply filling my last 2-3 sb slots with black aggro. While I often jam them with Dark Betrayals or something, I find I usually don't need them. Brain Maggot could maybe fill those slots, at least vs. Colossal Gruul, where it seems at it's best. But there are other situations where maggot can shine, I'm sure. particularly against anything playing a low instant-speed removal count, like current U/W. Say you maggot their hand (it's a verb now), and see their only removal is D-sphere, verdict. Take their Verdict and they could very well die before finding another answer, or being able to play the one they had. I still feel it's a risky play either way though, with all the scry in the format; they could easily have another verdict on top, in which case you're spent a turn AND a card doing pretty much nothing. And of course, last breath is a card...
Overall, I think Brain Maggot is a card I'd have to see doing well before I think it can do well. I'm not really a fan at present. But it does pair well with Thoughtseize itself, so we'll have to wait and see.
You seem to be missing the real value of Brain Maggot. I would rather have the MBD player spend mana and a card removing my Brain Maggot, than removing one of my threats. And either way, he is still down a card then. If he doesn't he is down a card and I have a body in play that I can bestow and turn into a threat. Same thing against burn. If they're spending their resources and burn spells to remove my Brain Maggot to get back... another burn spell, well it still did its job.
Also combining Lifebane Zombie and Brain Maggot against G/R/x Monsters, seems real good. I really like Lifebane Zombie MB because it is pseudo-unblockable. And with our bestow guys that's just awesome.
I'm also currently just testing 2 whips in the SB as a way to fight Burn/Aggro. They are by no means permanent yet. If I find out I don't need them, they will be replaced. With what, I'm not sure yet.
I see what you're saying, and I agree that I'd rather have my opponent kill a Brian Maggot than one of my threats. However, except for certain scenarios against Gr and UW, why not just play another threat? (At least in the mainboard). Consider the example against burn: You spend 2 mana to play a 1/1 on t2, more likely 3-4 to develop your board a bit more first. You remove a card from their hand. They then spend 2 mana to kill it and get their card back. In this case, you've done nothing but cause a tempo loss on BOTH sides. True, if your 1 or 2-drops are still alive, you might get to beat in for 2-3 more damage that turn. But burn spends their early game vs. aggro (us) removing our creatures anyway. And if they have Firedancer out, the only thing they're doing is taking 1 more damage than they normally would by killing the maggot instead of an attacking 2/1 or 2/2.
My point is that I'd much rather simply play another 2-drop threat than brain maggots. Let's not forget that by playing some number him, we're reducing our threat count by that number anyway. We're paying 2 mana to take a card from them, and they pay 2 mana to get it back. Or they could just play a wrath they've drawn/scryd into, and cause a large loss of value on our part. Or if they have a removal-light hand (like, 1 kill spell) they could just magma jet/bile blight the maggot in response to the trigger, wasting no time at all. Or they can just kill our threats first, then worry about our 1/1.
The card certainly does stuff. I just don't think we currently have much of a way to profit from it in standard (like playable death triggers). Don't get me wrong, I like the card, so I'd like someone to prove me wrong about this! It's just like I said; I'd have to see it played in Standard to see how we can actually profit from it.
I'm also currently just testing 2 whips in the SB as a way to fight Burn/Aggro. They are by no means permanent yet. If I find out I don't need them, they will be replaced. With what, I'm not sure yet.
Fyi, I like this list a lot, mainly in the fact that it plays Mogis's Warhound. Card seems legit with bestow for a mere 3. I like the thought of combining that with evasive threats like either demon, or LBZ. I think it'll also solve the problem I often have with all our x/1's getting rapidly outclassed by Coursers or even elvish mystics
EDIT: Btw, is anyone else interested in still playing Cackler on top of Hero/Scarhide? 1-drops make aggro run wild, and we have many ways to pump them later on (bestow) without losing any value. Problem of course is what to cut...
I'm not really on B Aggro right now, but I doubt that'll last long...If and when I play it again I'm probably going to try maybe 2 cacklers in addition to everything else, or maybe 3-3 with scarhide.
Im currently testing the Spiteful Returned, Master of the Feast, and Herald of Torment to see which one I would maybe rather then another or if they all just stay at 2-ofs.
I see some people not liking the thoughtseize mainboard, but I find its really good most of the time. You generally have a one drop to play turn 1 so turn 1 thoughtseize rarely happens unless you can untap and play 2 1-drops.
I did have brain maggot mainboard for a lil while and I just felt it was really weak mainboard and you just dont want it in the aggro matchups
I wouldn't Thougthseize on turn 1 anyway most of the time. It seems much better - on the play at least - to throw down a 1 drop, turn 2: thoughtseize, attack, throw down another 1 drop.
Wanted to share my current Jund Aggro list. This deck has been performing really well. I grabbed some ideas from the mono-green stompy deck and merged it with B/R aggro. This deck is really fast and packs a punch!
Let me know what you think. It's been a blast to play and surprisingly consistent. I've won a couple of matches with only 2 lands in play. The sideboard is still a work in progress. Magma Spray is mainly for the B/W decks running Athreos, God of Passage.
Keen to get into this deck after playing mbd for a while, but moving away from standard to play modern/legacy/edh.
I like the list a few posts above with Mogis's warhound, seems strong. I would probably cut the brain maggots, and maybe add three cacklers, and maybe a lightning strike or madcap skills. Also, without having played the deck, I'd say three mutavaults is probably a good number, they can be bestowed for all sorts of shenanigans, and otherwise keep the pressure up when you seem to be out of gas. But yeah. Keen to get this built and try it out.
This is my current list. I really enjoy it. and it can kill on turn 4 somewhat consistently if they dont have an early removal spell.
The sideboard is where Im having the biggest problems
4x Lifebane Zombie - I'm pretty sure this can go down to 3 because you dont want to load your deck up with 3 drops in this hyper aggressive deck.
2x Dark Betrayal - This seems like a solid number but im also not sure of any creatures that are black that we need to kill with this that dreadbore/lightning strike doesnt.
2x Doom Blade - This is mostly for monsters and the "bigger" aggro decks that can brickwall us with 1 or 2 creatures. Im pretty sold on this being a 2-of in the board
4x Brain Maggot - Im not 100% sold on this as a 4-of. He may be better as a 2-of since he isnt that aggro but the effect is still really good and worth it.
1x Mizzium Mortars - This is simply for Blood Baron. Yea, thats it.
2x Burning Earth - For those ambitious manabases which im sure will take off thanks to mana confluence.
Other sideboard cards
Pharika's Cure - I dont think we ever really need to be the defense deck where this card would shine. We can generally race the decks that this is generally brough in against.
Whip of Erebos - Im not sure if this card is needed. I have no testing with it. Seems like it could be ok, I suppose. Just dont care for the 4 mana, especially since im at 21 lands now. Burning earth is 4 mana but can almost end the game by itself.
Duress - I think Brain Maggot does this job just as good against the control deck.
So far master of the feast has been pretty damn good. Especially when he follows 1 drop into madcap skills. Thats a lot of dmg quickly.
Any thoughts?
Also Spiteful returned is awesome and I suggest trying it out in the deck as a 2-of.
You put spiteful returned under spells, lol. Like the list, will prob base my first one on it, would say replace shred freak with mogis's warhound, the guy doesn't have haste, but is a better draw later imo, being able to cheap bestow is just good. But really like the low curve, and fewer lands.
In terms of sideboard, thoughtseize a possible extra option v control, searing blood a possible extra option v aggro?
I think that the sheer speed of this list basically negates the need for a sideboard, and that you are basically playing two sets of spike jester when you cast Madcap Skills.
Boon just keeps that one enchanted creature alive, wins combat math, and sometimes finishes the game. Thoughtseize could be accompanied by Duress in the sideboard I suppose, not sure what else though.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
You put spiteful returned under spells, lol. Like the list, will prob base my first one on it, would say replace shred freak with mogis's warhound, the guy doesn't have haste, but is a better draw later imo, being able to cheap bestow is just good. But really like the low curve, and fewer lands.
In terms of sideboard, thoughtseize a possible extra option v control, searing blood a possible extra option v aggro?
Only reason i like shred freak over warhound is Haste and you play him off of just swamps so it enables you to keep more hands that dont have red at first. Warhound may be an option and it does help against precint captain a lot. Def will give it a try.
I dont care for thoughtseize in the sideboard as I think Brain Maggot/Lifebane is likely good enough. Searing Blood is a possible option, but I think if you do sideboard that I would like to put a mountain in the sideboard since double red could possibly be rough to cast.
Also I've been thiinking act of treason may be very good in the board. And has pretty cool synergy with madcap skills.
Ima try out warhound and act of treason today and post results later.
I personally think this deck is very good. Especially against control decks.
You put spiteful returned under spells, lol. Like the list, will prob base my first one on it, would say replace shred freak with mogis's warhound, the guy doesn't have haste, but is a better draw later imo, being able to cheap bestow is just good. But really like the low curve, and fewer lands.
In terms of sideboard, thoughtseize a possible extra option v control, searing blood a possible extra option v aggro?
Only reason i like shred freak over warhound is Haste and you play him off of just swamps so it enables you to keep more hands that dont have red at first. Warhound may be an option and it does help against precint captain a lot. Def will give it a try.
I dont care for thoughtseize in the sideboard as I think Brain Maggot/Lifebane is likely good enough. Searing Blood is a possible option, but I think if you do sideboard that I would like to put a mountain in the sideboard since double red could possibly be rough to cast.
Also I've been thiinking act of treason may be very good in the board. And has pretty cool synergy with madcap skills.
Ima try out warhound and act of treason today and post results later.
I personally think this deck is very good. Especially against control decks.
Against UW and Esper you might wanna look at a 3/1 split between skullcrack and toil // trouble in the side, drawing those is just a free win in most cases.
There has been talk of skull crack in the board. Maybe as a two of instead of 2 brain maggots. Didnt think of toil//trouble. Seems like it can blow them out and dome them for 7
Example creature curve: Cackler > Jester > Master of the Feast
Example Bestow curve: Hero > Jester > Warhound > Returned > Herald
I opted to exclude Gnarled Scarhide (for now) because I think Herald of Torment adds a bit more. Since the curve is so low, it's a bad idea to run the scrylands, so I included Magma Jet to help filter draws to keep the gas flowing, and provide a bit of burn and/or cheap creature removal.
Some sideboard explanation is probably needed: Blinding Flare can help push creatures through in the B/x matchups where the intimidate from Mogis's Marauder won't work. Magma Spray is my answer to the possible rise of B/W weenie decks running Athreos, God of Passage. Immortal Servitude is for the control matchup. The curve is so low that we could recoup 1-drops after a Supreme Verdict (or 2-drops if we're on the play). The most brutal play would be to cast it for X=3 to bring back Herald of Torment, Master of the Feast, and Mogis's Marauder then swing for at least 10 damage (8 of it in the air).
Example creature curve: Cackler > Jester > Master of the Feast
Example Bestow curve: Hero > Jester > Warhound > Returned > Herald
I opted to exclude Gnarled Scarhide (for now) because I think Herald of Torment adds a bit more. Since the curve is so low, it's a bad idea to run the scrylands, so I included Magma Jet to help filter draws to keep the gas flowing, and provide a bit of burn and/or cheap creature removal.
Some sideboard explanation is probably needed: Blinding Flare can help push creatures through in the B/x matchups where the intimidate from Mogis's Marauder won't work. Magma Spray is my answer to the possible rise of B/W weenie decks running Athreos, God of Passage. Immortal Servitude is for the control matchup. The curve is so low that we could recoup 1-drops after a Supreme Verdict (or 2-drops if we're on the play). The most brutal play would be to cast it for X=3 to bring back Herald of Torment, Master of the Feast, and Mogis's Marauder then swing for at least 10 damage (8 of it in the air).
our list are pretty similiar. This is some things i've tested out already.
Herald of torment isnt that great in this deck. We cant reasonably bestow him and master outclasses him in almost every aspect in this deck.
Gnarled Scarhide is amazing, and gives you a lot more "race ability"
Madcap Skills is most of the timme the best card in the deck and gives you a lot of "opps, i win" moments. And it also gives you more turn 2 5 damage games, which is what we like to be doing.
I dont care for spiteful returned as a 4-of because you generally dont want 2 in your opening hand. They arent terrible but one at a time is best.
Mogi's Warhound so far in testing has been pretty good and add a little "voltron" aspect to the deck which I enjoy and its good post wraith. It just sucks that it doesnt add to devotion for maruder.
This is currently my deck. I havent had a chance yet to test; Skullcrack, Act of Treason, or Toil/Trouble but they seem really good.
Main card that I want to try out in the board is electricker since there is a LOT of weenie decks right now and this card can be a straight up blowout.
I think I really just need to testing the control matchup and see exactly how many slots in my board i will put towards that matchup so I dont overboard against them and fill my sideboard up with anti-control cards and just lose to the midrange decks or something to that degree.
EDIT: Also thinking about going down to 20 mana since we have nothing besides the burning earth in the board thats over 3 mana. I may include a land in the board just to come in with burning earth if it stays in there and if I go down to 20 lands.
Cards to consider from JOU:
I'd say Gnarled and Master are auto-includes.
4x Desecration Demon
4x Herald of Torment
4x Master of the Feast
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Rakdos Shred-Freak
4x Spiteful Returned
4x Tormented Hero
2x Bile Blight
1x Doom Blade
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Ultimate Price
Enchantment (3)
3x Whip of Erebos
Land (22)
22x Swamp
3x Brain Maggot
3x Duress
3x Devour Flesh
Working on SB atm, possible cards I am considering
1x Brain Maggot
1x Lifebane Zombie
1x Pain Seer
Also, i messed about with B/g deck, that uses Varolz.
4x Desecration Demon
4x Herald of Torment
4x Master of the Feast
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Rakdos Shred-Freak
4x Spiteful Returned
4x Tormented Hero
2x Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Bile Blight
2x Hero's Downfall
Enchantment (2)
2x Whip of Erebos
Land (22)
4x Overgrown Tomb
14x Swamp
4x Temple of Malady
This way even if they remove master of the feats by anything bar exile, we can 3cmc 5 +1/+1 tokens onto another beater
WU$50 Budget UW heroicUW
Modern
WR Boros Burn RW
Commander/EDH
(WiP) RNorin the TrollR
My Rakdos version:
4 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Spike Jester
3 Spiteful Returned
2 Hellhole Flailer
3 Herald of Torment
3 Mogis's Marauder
4 Shock
4 Dreadbore
2 Hero's Downfall
Lands 23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
8 Swamp
7 Mountain
And my MBA:
4 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
3 Pain Seer
3 Spiteful Returned
4 Herald of Torment
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Mogis's Marauder
2 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price
1 Devour Flesh
4 Hero's Downfall
20 Swamp
3 Mutavault
As you can see the decks are fairly similar. The sideboards for both include some amount of Duress (I think 4 in both), and more Devour Flesh for hexproof/Blood Baron decks. The Duress has been invaluable for not only control MU's, but for burn, which is almost unwinnable g1 in my experience, and against which Thoughtseize is fairly bad - still worth casting, but barely. Both decks also have some form of life gain tech in the board: Mono black has 2x crypt incursion (great vs. burn, so long as you play around skullcrack), and my BR plays 2-3 Tablet of the Guilds (which is insane against burn, and red decks in general - gaining 2 life from almost every cards you play wins games). Even WITH all the anti burn tech however, it's still I feel a very bad MU. How is everyone else fairing with that, in testing?
Like I said, I've personally been having much better luck with the rakdos version, and I've yet to put my finger on the reason why. Dreadbore is great there, but I think the main difference is that it has a minor boost to versatility from red. In the main, this is from the 4x Shock (which is great vs an aggro mirror, another bad MU), and the fact that several more of our guys have haste of course really puts the pressure on as early as turn 2, vs any deck, really.
Apart from that, I've spent a lot of time over the last couple weeks tuning both versions to be stronger, and I think I did a fairly good job, though not perfect by any means. I'm finding the 3x Pain Seer, 3x Spiteful Returned is vastly preferable to having each as a 4-of. I never really want 2-3 Pain Seers out, EXCEPT vs. control... and even then D-Sphere is bad lol. And I never really want to cast SR, hence why I again don't want 4. I almost always want him just top bestow. I'd only really cast him on t2 in either version if I have no other 2-drop, and I'm setting up for Marauder.
Additionally and most importantly, I've become a huge advocate of not having Thoughtseize anywhere in the main. Game 1, I simple want to curve out, remove their threats/blockers and kill them. I also don't want TS against aggro or burn. So I much prefer it in the side, and even there only as a 2 or 3-of. This could be a mistake - however, I found my performance with both decks improved when I made this change in particular. If I do return any to the main, it won't be more than 3, as I really never want it as a topdeck, at least not past t3 or t4 or so.
Apart from all that, I think it's obvious we're getting some great new cards for this archetype in JOU. Master of the Feast, and Gnarled Scarhide in particular (we're allowed to discuss spoilers now, right? If not I apologize, I didn't check).
What do you guys think?
Cheers!
Personally I don't like this deck to curve up to 4 with DDemon. I mean, it really already does with bestow, but then those cards are much more versatile. But I'll be the first to admit I've only tested with Dessy for a few odd rounds.
As for Brain Maggot, when I first saw the card I thought "Oh great! A reprint of a good card, but much, much worse!". And it is much worse, although it does only cost 1B, not BW. However the more I think about it, I think it still miiiiight find a home in the SB against Gruul (a deck with little removal - take their Domri from their hand and they have a huge problem, especially if you follow up with LBZ). Also, it seems great against mono U, who has even fewer ways to remove it, and you can always TAKE one of those ways away from them. Or, ya know, a Thassa, Master of Waves... My main issue with the card is of course that it's not very aggressive, but at least it can still pull some weight with bestow or Marauder!
DD is the top as if i need to drop Spiteful Returned earlier then the 4cmc slot is empty, and, in the past found him to be amazing
WU$50 Budget UW heroicUW
Modern
WR Boros Burn RW
Commander/EDH
(WiP) RNorin the TrollR
Mesmeric Fiend doesn't cost BW...
ANYWHO cheekyness aside I'm pretty sure for Mono B that the two biggest changes are going to be Master of the Feast and Gnarled Scarhide. Scarhide gives us more power in either a creature, or bestow AND allows us to throw it on their creature to get around which I am fine racing a +2 on my opponents creature if I can kill them faster. Not to mention that should we start losing the race and have to kill their bestowed creature, we get our scarhide back.
My deck POST Journey:
19 Swamp
4 Mutavault
Creature 28:
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Pain Seer
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
3 Spiteful Returned
3 Herald of Torment
3 Mogis' Marauder
3 Master of the Feast
3 Thoughtsieze
Instant 6:
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Bile Blight
1 Thoughtsieze
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Devour Flesh
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Doomwake Giant
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Brain Maggot
I'm gonna try out 3 masters MB, might end up at 2 but its really hard to pass up a 5/5 flyer for 3, downside be damned.
Yes, you are reading that sideboard correctly, I do have 2 Doomwake Giant in the SB. Why? Well his dad Noxious Ghoul was a good sideboard card, in eating all the little things and is hard target to burn out. I am running a grand total of 13 MB enchantments and after sideboard I can go up to a whopping 20. Activating his constellation won't be hard, once again it even counts when I bestow scarhide onto a creature (since we still control the enchantment). Granted that many enchantments makes me soft to enchantment removal that people are probably gonna MB but I don't see people bringing too much in if any at all against me.
Switching from Duress to the Maggot makes me a little softer against burn but devour flesh and whip are *supposed* to help against that.
I'm still liking pain seer for a good 2 drop. Shred Freak always under performed and if they kill my pain seer its 1 less removal for master or herald.
I dropped the cackler for scarhide instead of the hero since we have so many bestows his heroic is better then the cackler's occasional blocking power.
Have I said how much I like scarhide yet?
Standard
RBUGrixis Tutelage
BR Devoid Beatdown
Modern
RAffinity
B 8 Rack
Legacy
0 Dredge
EDH
RBBladewing's Zombie Dragons
BUGRW Sliver Legion's Overrun
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
As much as I love Thoughtseize I agree with this. It needs to be in the sideboard for control decks, to rip their Verdicts/major removal spells that would otherwise ruin our day.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Woops! I was (obviously) thinking of something else. I also thought that "something" was a 2/1 lol. Thanks!
That aside, I think we'll have some decisions to make regarding sb slots devoted to discard/hand disruption. The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to doubt the power of Brain Maggot, at least in the meta as we know it. Seems pretty bad vs. any deck playing removal. Against burn, it's miserable. Same with MBD (though of course we wouldn't bring it in against them). I should clarify; I see no reason to play it over either Duress OR Thoughtseize, in anywhere. However, I often find problems simply filling my last 2-3 sb slots with black aggro. While I often jam them with Dark Betrayals or something, I find I usually don't need them. Brain Maggot could maybe fill those slots, at least vs. Colossal Gruul, where it seems at it's best. But there are other situations where maggot can shine, I'm sure. particularly against anything playing a low instant-speed removal count, like current U/W. Say you maggot their hand (it's a verb now), and see their only removal is D-sphere, verdict. Take their Verdict and they could very well die before finding another answer, or being able to play the one they had. I still feel it's a risky play either way though, with all the scry in the format; they could easily have another verdict on top, in which case you're spent a turn AND a card doing pretty much nothing. And of course, last breath is a card...
Overall, I think Brain Maggot is a card I'd have to see doing well before I think it can do well. I'm not really a fan at present. But it does pair well with Thoughtseize itself, so we'll have to wait and see.
You seem to be missing the real value of Brain Maggot. I would rather have the MBD player spend mana and a card removing my Brain Maggot, than removing one of my threats. And either way, he is still down a card then. If he doesn't he is down a card and I have a body in play that I can bestow and turn into a threat. Same thing against burn. If they're spending their resources and burn spells to remove my Brain Maggot to get back... another burn spell, well it still did its job.
Also combining Lifebane Zombie and Brain Maggot against G/R/x Monsters, seems real good. I really like Lifebane Zombie MB because it is pseudo-unblockable. And with our bestow guys that's just awesome.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Tormented Hero
4 Brain Maggot
4 Mogis's Warhound
4 Spike Jester
3 Herald of Torment
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Master of the Feast
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
Lands (23)
9 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Mana Confluence
2 Mutavault
4 Temple of Malice
3 Dark Betrayal
2 Doom Blade
4 Pharika's Cure
4 Duress
2 Whip of Erebos
I'm also currently just testing 2 whips in the SB as a way to fight Burn/Aggro. They are by no means permanent yet. If I find out I don't need them, they will be replaced. With what, I'm not sure yet.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
My point is that I'd much rather simply play another 2-drop threat than brain maggots. Let's not forget that by playing some number him, we're reducing our threat count by that number anyway. We're paying 2 mana to take a card from them, and they pay 2 mana to get it back. Or they could just play a wrath they've drawn/scryd into, and cause a large loss of value on our part. Or if they have a removal-light hand (like, 1 kill spell) they could just magma jet/bile blight the maggot in response to the trigger, wasting no time at all. Or they can just kill our threats first, then worry about our 1/1.
The card certainly does stuff. I just don't think we currently have much of a way to profit from it in standard (like playable death triggers). Don't get me wrong, I like the card, so I'd like someone to prove me wrong about this! It's just like I said; I'd have to see it played in Standard to see how we can actually profit from it.
Fyi, I like this list a lot, mainly in the fact that it plays Mogis's Warhound. Card seems legit with bestow for a mere 3. I like the thought of combining that with evasive threats like either demon, or LBZ. I think it'll also solve the problem I often have with all our x/1's getting rapidly outclassed by Coursers or even elvish mystics
EDIT: Btw, is anyone else interested in still playing Cackler on top of Hero/Scarhide? 1-drops make aggro run wild, and we have many ways to pump them later on (bestow) without losing any value. Problem of course is what to cut...
I'm not really on B Aggro right now, but I doubt that'll last long...If and when I play it again I'm probably going to try maybe 2 cacklers in addition to everything else, or maybe 3-3 with scarhide.
4 Mana Confluence
7 Swamp
3 Mutavault
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Mogis's Marauder
4 Spike Jester
2 Master of the Feast
2 Spiteful Returned
2 Herald of Torment
4 Madcap Skills
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Lightning Strike
Im currently testing the Spiteful Returned, Master of the Feast, and Herald of Torment to see which one I would maybe rather then another or if they all just stay at 2-ofs.
I see some people not liking the thoughtseize mainboard, but I find its really good most of the time. You generally have a one drop to play turn 1 so turn 1 thoughtseize rarely happens unless you can untap and play 2 1-drops.
I did have brain maggot mainboard for a lil while and I just felt it was really weak mainboard and you just dont want it in the aggro matchups
This ismy current sideboard
3 Doom Blade
2 Pharika's Cure
2 Dark Betrayal
4 Lifebane Zombie
Pretty straight forward gameplan for aggro and control decks.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
4 Experiment One
4 Spike Jester
4 Thrill-kill Assassin
2 Brushstrider
2 Mogis's Warhound
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mogis's Marauder
2 Slaughterhorn
4 Ghor-clan Rampager
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Giant Growth
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Mana Confluence
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Swamp
3 Pharika, God of Affliction
3 Golgari Charm
3 Skylasher
3 Master of the Feast
3 Magma Spray
Let me know what you think. It's been a blast to play and surprisingly consistent. I've won a couple of matches with only 2 lands in play. The sideboard is still a work in progress. Magma Spray is mainly for the B/W decks running Athreos, God of Passage.
I like the list a few posts above with Mogis's warhound, seems strong. I would probably cut the brain maggots, and maybe add three cacklers, and maybe a lightning strike or madcap skills. Also, without having played the deck, I'd say three mutavaults is probably a good number, they can be bestowed for all sorts of shenanigans, and otherwise keep the pressure up when you seem to be out of gas. But yeah. Keen to get this built and try it out.
6 Swamp
4 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
// Creatures
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Mogis's Marauder
4 Spike Jester
4 Master of the Feast
3 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Madcap Skills
2 Dreadbore
4 Lightning Strike
2 Spiteful Returned
This is my current list. I really enjoy it. and it can kill on turn 4 somewhat consistently if they dont have an early removal spell.
The sideboard is where Im having the biggest problems
2x Dark Betrayal - This seems like a solid number but im also not sure of any creatures that are black that we need to kill with this that dreadbore/lightning strike doesnt.
2x Doom Blade - This is mostly for monsters and the "bigger" aggro decks that can brickwall us with 1 or 2 creatures. Im pretty sold on this being a 2-of in the board
4x Brain Maggot - Im not 100% sold on this as a 4-of. He may be better as a 2-of since he isnt that aggro but the effect is still really good and worth it.
1x Mizzium Mortars - This is simply for Blood Baron. Yea, thats it.
2x Burning Earth - For those ambitious manabases which im sure will take off thanks to mana confluence.
Other sideboard cards
Pharika's Cure - I dont think we ever really need to be the defense deck where this card would shine. We can generally race the decks that this is generally brough in against.
Whip of Erebos - Im not sure if this card is needed. I have no testing with it. Seems like it could be ok, I suppose. Just dont care for the 4 mana, especially since im at 21 lands now. Burning earth is 4 mana but can almost end the game by itself.
Duress - I think Brain Maggot does this job just as good against the control deck.
So far master of the feast has been pretty damn good. Especially when he follows 1 drop into madcap skills. Thats a lot of dmg quickly.
Any thoughts?
Also Spiteful returned is awesome and I suggest trying it out in the deck as a 2-of.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
In terms of sideboard, thoughtseize a possible extra option v control, searing blood a possible extra option v aggro?
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Brain Maggot
4 Rakdos Shred-freak
4 Spike Jester
4 Mogis's Marauder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Boon of Erebos
4 Madcap Skills
Lands (20)
4 Mana Confluence
4 Blood Crypt
12 Swamp
I think that the sheer speed of this list basically negates the need for a sideboard, and that you are basically playing two sets of spike jester when you cast Madcap Skills.
Boon just keeps that one enchanted creature alive, wins combat math, and sometimes finishes the game. Thoughtseize could be accompanied by Duress in the sideboard I suppose, not sure what else though.
Only reason i like shred freak over warhound is Haste and you play him off of just swamps so it enables you to keep more hands that dont have red at first. Warhound may be an option and it does help against precint captain a lot. Def will give it a try.
I dont care for thoughtseize in the sideboard as I think Brain Maggot/Lifebane is likely good enough. Searing Blood is a possible option, but I think if you do sideboard that I would like to put a mountain in the sideboard since double red could possibly be rough to cast.
Also I've been thiinking act of treason may be very good in the board. And has pretty cool synergy with madcap skills.
Ima try out warhound and act of treason today and post results later.
I personally think this deck is very good. Especially against control decks.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
There has been talk of skull crack in the board. Maybe as a two of instead of 2 brain maggots. Didnt think of toil//trouble. Seems like it can blow them out and dome them for 7
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
3x Herald of Torment
4x Master of the Feast
3x Mogis's Marauder
4x Mogis's Warhound
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Spike Jester
4x Spiteful Returned
4x Tormented Hero
4x Blood Crypt
6x Mountain
8x Swamp
4x Mana Confluence
Instant (4)
4x Magma Jet
Sorcery (4)
4x Dreadbore
3x Blinding Flare
2x Immortal Servitude
3x Magma Spray
2x Mizzium Mortars
3x Thoughtseize
2x Toil / Trouble
Example creature curve: Cackler > Jester > Master of the Feast
Example Bestow curve: Hero > Jester > Warhound > Returned > Herald
I opted to exclude Gnarled Scarhide (for now) because I think Herald of Torment adds a bit more. Since the curve is so low, it's a bad idea to run the scrylands, so I included Magma Jet to help filter draws to keep the gas flowing, and provide a bit of burn and/or cheap creature removal.
Some sideboard explanation is probably needed:
Blinding Flare can help push creatures through in the B/x matchups where the intimidate from Mogis's Marauder won't work.
Magma Spray is my answer to the possible rise of B/W weenie decks running Athreos, God of Passage.
Immortal Servitude is for the control matchup. The curve is so low that we could recoup 1-drops after a Supreme Verdict (or 2-drops if we're on the play). The most brutal play would be to cast it for X=3 to bring back Herald of Torment, Master of the Feast, and Mogis's Marauder then swing for at least 10 damage (8 of it in the air).
our list are pretty similiar. This is some things i've tested out already.
Herald of torment isnt that great in this deck. We cant reasonably bestow him and master outclasses him in almost every aspect in this deck.
Gnarled Scarhide is amazing, and gives you a lot more "race ability"
Madcap Skills is most of the timme the best card in the deck and gives you a lot of "opps, i win" moments. And it also gives you more turn 2 5 damage games, which is what we like to be doing.
I dont care for spiteful returned as a 4-of because you generally dont want 2 in your opening hand. They arent terrible but one at a time is best.
Mogi's Warhound so far in testing has been pretty good and add a little "voltron" aspect to the deck which I enjoy and its good post wraith. It just sucks that it doesnt add to devotion for maruder.
6 Swamp
4 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
// Creatures
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Mogis's Marauder
4 Spike Jester
4 Master of the Feast
3 Mogis's Warhound
4 Madcap Skills
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Spiteful Returned
2 Brain Maggot
2 Doom Blade
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Skullcrack
1 Toil/Trouble
1 Act of Treason
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Burning Earth
This is currently my deck. I havent had a chance yet to test; Skullcrack, Act of Treason, or Toil/Trouble but they seem really good.
Main card that I want to try out in the board is electricker since there is a LOT of weenie decks right now and this card can be a straight up blowout.
I think I really just need to testing the control matchup and see exactly how many slots in my board i will put towards that matchup so I dont overboard against them and fill my sideboard up with anti-control cards and just lose to the midrange decks or something to that degree.
EDIT: Also thinking about going down to 20 mana since we have nothing besides the burning earth in the board thats over 3 mana. I may include a land in the board just to come in with burning earth if it stays in there and if I go down to 20 lands.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW