Hello all! This is not my first time posting but it is my first thread. I welcome all constructive criticism.
Leech removed: Mogis Mauader, Boon of Erebos, Tormented Hero, Thoughtseize. Feel free to remove this modtext, it's just a marker for the images I removed.
Since Theros was fully spoiled (and even shortly before) I've been thinking about building a Black-based aggro deck. Black has always been my favorite color flavor-wise. I generally would prefer a Black control build, but now we are losing Mutilate, making non-U/W control far less viable in the upcoming standard. More than that, black is gaining far more tools from Theros alone that fit themselves into a more aggressive/middlerange archetype.
That being said, one of the major disadvantages that black based aggro lists have is their lack of reach. This is STILL the case. Previously we had Bump in the Night, which is a great card for simply pushing through damage, but it lacked burn's ability to take out early blockers as well. In fact, burn is one of the few reasons I would consider adding Red as a second color. Sadly, we're even losing Blood Artist.
However, I feel black can still be a powerful color for aggressive players once Theros is released. While we are losing Gravecrawler and Diregraf Ghoul as one-drops, we gain Tormented Hero, and still have Rakdos Cackler. And we gain much, much more.
The key pieces we are gaining, as I see it, are as follows:
Tormented hero: Another 2-power one drop with a slight upside in its ability. Comes into play tapped, but can block.
Mogis's Marauder: The absolute kingpin of this deck. It had a brief mention I believe in a Star City Games article a while back... However, that article listed it as a one-of. I cannot stress how powerful this guy is, in theory and in testing. A 2/2 with haste for 3? Not very impressive. But it has the ability to grant EVERY ONE of your creatures not only haste, but intimidate, for the turn in comes down. This generally allows to to alpha strike every time you play one without fear of being blocked. This can be as early as turn 3, or any time later. This ability simple cannot be ignored.
Other cards we are gaining:
Erebos, God of the Dead: In an aggressive Black deck, he is most often a creature, and a strong one. Against other aggro builds, like most gods, he's very tough to beat. His passive and activated abilities also both make him strong against control. He is also a very strong player against Blood Baron, a card that otherwise HAS to be Thoughseized away.
Boon of Erebos: A deceptively strong support card. The life loss is relevant, but it serves as a pump spell and a way to save your creature.
Thoughtseize: A strong card against any midrange or control decks, but lackluster against aggro. Still, it's a good out to anything for just one mana.
This deck allows for very brutal openings with its ability to simply not care about opposing blockers. While I can't say for certain that black colored blockers won't be common in the upcoming meta, I would be surprised if they were. This makes mass-intimidate through Marauder very, very powerful. Shadow Alley Denizen, while fairly janky, provides a similar effect by generally allowing at least one of our guys to get through a turn. Although he should probably be moved to the sideboard, if kept at all, he is a card I am testing with.
Child of Night is a decent bear that helps recover from some of our self-induced life loss against other aggressive decks. Thrill-Kill Assassin can be a good blocker, but he's mainly there as a 3-toughness attacker to combat Shock and Magma Jet, as both cards I forsee being quite common.
Pack Rat is a funny little guy that is never really played. But I feel he is quite strong in an aggressive build. Sure, he costs cards to activate, but that just means he's turning creatures into other creatures, or lands into creatures. These copies can be brought in at instant speed, and get progressively powerful the more you make. Casting him gives you a 1/1. Activating him once gives an additional 3 power, as you get a 2/2 which in turn makes the original one a 2/2. Activating him AGAIN nets you an additional 5 power for the same reason. From there, it gets fairly degenerate. He's in as a 2-of for his ability to fight through land pockets and recover from wraths.
The downside of this build is still it's lack of reach and difficulty fighting against sweepers, but both of these factors can be remedied by splashing a second color (red for burn, and maybe even green for Golgari Charm's regenerate ability, as well as strong creatures like Dreg Mangler). I personally am on a more mono-black track, but I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts on any black-heavy aggro lists that come up here.
Some other cards that could potentially fit right in, Mb or Sb, that I have not listed above:
Duress
Blood Scrivener
Whip of Erebos (Slow, but very powerful in any match up due to its life gain and reanimation effect)
Pharika's Cure (strong anti-aggro card, may end up being necessary)
Agent of Fates
Dark Prophecy?
Hero's Downfall (Probably shouldn't be maindecked due to its mana cost, but a strong removal spell all the same)
Read the Bones
Nighthowler
Gray Merchant of Asphodel (I'm not convinced that upping our curve to include a 5-drop is the right way to go, but his effect, especially with a field full of black creatures, is immensely powerful. Also gains us back precious life)
With all that said, I look forward to hearing what people think! Pleae share any thoughts and ideas you may have!
I think the deck should start with:
4x mogis's marauder
4x xathrid necromancer
They basically serve the same purpose - allow you to tap dudes sideways each turn and not care about blocks. Necromancer also protects against wraths.
There is also agent of fates and lifebane zombie which do similar thing, but for themselves rather for everyone else.
The problem is that all good cards are in 3cmc slot.
That leaves 4-7 random cards to figure out.
Personally I would like to splash white for path of bravery. White will also give access to sin collector in SB.
Also I'm pretty sure either mutavault or dark prophecy should be here.
My main issue with the original list is that you auto-lose to something like Blood Baron of Vizkopa unless you get your one Erebos out, and even then it would be a struggle. Most aggro builds run significantly more removal to help get the small guys through.
My main issue with the original list is that you auto-lose to something like Blood Baron of Vizkopa unless you get your one Erebos out, and even then it would be a struggle. Most aggro builds run significantly more removal to help get the small guys through.
I like R/B for this reason, using Chandra to make sure big bodies like Blood Baron and Desecration Demon(without losing one of your guys) can't block. She also is great in the mirror considering almost everything black and aggressively costed has 1 toughness, and in slower games she can generate some card advantage. I don't see a matchup that she would be bad in. I think I'll be playing something like this in the early days of Theros standard:
My main issue with the original list is that you auto-lose to something like Blood Baron of Vizkopa unless you get your one Erebos out, and even then it would be a struggle. Most aggro builds run significantly more removal to help get the small guys through.
Barons are easy to beat even in monoblack by using edict effects, sacrifice outlets or lifebanes.
Thank you guys for bringing up Xathrid Necromancer; it's a card I had thought about but forgot to include. I'm not sold on it however, primarily because it still dies to Anger of the Gods. It's also not very impressive by itself. However, it does make combat trades a lot more profitable, even if the tokens don't help Devotion, and it does protect against Supreme Verdict. We'll have to see.
The more I think about it, while a second color may not be necessary I think Red might be worth adding, just for the burn (and probably Spike Jester). My main issue is that with the Innistrad/M13 Duals leaving, all we'll have to complement the Shock lands are more lands that etb tapped. This could potentially make our curve a lot worse. However, it'd probably just be fine to run 4x Blood Crypt, and the rest basics, with maybe 2-3 of the new R/B duals (name eludes me) mixed in. T2 Spike Jester is still annoying, but I doubt it would regularly be an issue.
As you guys have mentioned, Blood Baron is a large problem once it hits the field. This makes Mizzium Mortars and even Skullcrack a lot better, when adding red. However, mono black can still handle it. We have several ways to deal with it before it comes down, even in the main (Lifebane Zombie, and Thoughtseize, which I do plan to run a few of maindeck) and if we've drawn it, we have Erebos for once it hits. In addition, as the OP pointed out, we have edicts, although those will probably have to be sided in.
At one point I was considering a Red or r/x build that utilized Madcap Skills with Akroan Crusader, and other Heroic creatures. True, Black has better targets (arguably), but I really don't see it fitting here, or a least in a build like mine splashing red. It is a large source of burst, and synergizes fairly well with Tormented Hero and Agent of Fates, if he's being played - but with the amount of intimidate we have access too, it just seems like it's biggest factor would be the +3/+0. Still, point taken. It's something worth looking into, if red is involved. I'd just prefer burn in its slot personally.
This is my updated list, though I haven't done more than goldfish with it yet:
As you can see, my only changes were:
-2 Shadow Alley Denizen, -1 Doom Blade, -2 Swamp
+2Whip of Erebos, +1 Lifebane Zombie, +2 Mutavault
The Whip was my main focus, the other changes are obvious. I realized what I want against aggro is further ways to gain life without sacrificing too much of my own aggression, and what I wanted against Midrange/Control was more ways to apply pressure. Erebos himself seems like he'll be similarly strong in every matchup, but If it came down to a choice of which one I want resolved more frequently, I'd choose the Whip. Stronger against aggro (provided I have board presence), and allows for more swings even after I run out of gas in hand.
Anger of the God's will still be very annoying, as it even fights the Whip by exiling all the guys it kills, but whatever. We'll just have to either play around it or fight through it. Both are quite possible to accomplish.
I'll be playing on the first day of Theros Standard at my lgs this Friday, likely with this or a similar deck, and I'm very excited! Still a few days to go, though. In the meantime, I like what everyone's sharing!
Well you can use Mapcap Skills to help trigger Heroic, no doubt. Agent of Fates becomes more appealing at that point.
Mapcap Skills on Tormented Hero though. Hero attacks 5/1 turn 2; they are also loosing 1 for his Heroic Trigger. So really its 6.
Monoblack Aggro decks like this are really nice going into an open Meta, especially after a rotation. For this deck to have longevity, it needs to be able to withstand shifts and slowdown. Mogi's Marauders is pretty amazing.
I never thought about Mogis's marauder as a 3 drop to be honest, it looks like it fights with lifebane and agent so I didn't think twice.
ANYWAY, how come I never see any black/green aggro lists? I used to run down decks with my G/B zombies all the time due to the fairly large amount of regeneration to prevent death.
Which hasn't changed, even though I lose gravecrawler and messenger but I picked up Boon of Erebos which I really like if we play with heroic cards as both a way to save vital creatures and a combat pump.
Here is the decklist I am playtesting at the moment:
Since I don't use the marauder I use Desecration Demon for a "finisher" and soft removal. Reaper sets up my draw so I don't draw more land when I don't need it. Far // Away is for Obzedat and Blood Baron of Vizkopa since, outside of a heroic trigger on agent, those two cards I kinda can't deal with.
Going Golgari aggro may have to do with the fact that I expect quite a bit of control decks out and about post Innistrad and Varolz is just such a bomb against (non-syncopate) counterspells and removal, not to mention I have four creatures that are hard to remove and 3 spells that help it.
One of the things I worry about with this deck is Golgari Charm vs Fade into Antiquity. I'm leaning towards the charm because of all three effects and my sacrifice effects "should" help against the gods but those that don't ever turn into creatures could be a problem >.< I'll finally get to playtest this deck tomorrow evening (stupid life!) to figure out the kinks in the deck.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Nothing but mono-red is fast enough to have a good chance of getting in under the sweepers. Instead I built my list to provide some insurance against them. 2 Thoughtseize in the main and 2 in the sideboard help disrupt control without them showing up too often against aggro. Underworld Cerberus is a huge threat and provides us with a way to recuperate after a sweep.
We have a plethora of tools available to include in the sideboard. It's going to take a lot of testing before I can present a solid 15 though.
Duly noted, although madcaps skills isn't a replacement for volcanic strength, since it was guaranteed to get past blockers.
Regardless, I disagree with your statement about only red being fast enough to get through sweepers. There are actually MORE haste creatures in rakdos colors, most notably spike jester and bloodwitch, both of which are fantastic post sweep or really at any time. Also, thoughtseize perfect in an aggressive deck that doesn't care as much about its life total, as it's the perfect preemptive answer for cards primarily red decks cant answer effectively (sweepers, blood baron, etc). I think rakdos aggro will be much better than mono red because of this, as thoughtseize gives the deck essentially 12 one drops to work with rather than 8 in mono red (and they have to run the new jackal pup, which is a subpar one drop). Not only that, but rakdos doesn't even lose tempo by playing a turn 1 thoughtseize, as just about all the cards have haste, unlike again the mono red counterpart. NOT ONLY THAT, but hellhole flailer is pretty sick reach, AND the deck has more synergy than mono red, as certain cards that don't have hast (cackler/flailer) can be given haste post bloodwitch.
Only thing they have over rakdos is ash zealot (decent loss but not unbearable as spike jester is comparable) and boros reckoner. But reckoner is a SB card in super fast mono red aggro to deal with midrange, and I honestly believe that mogis marauder is just as amazing if not better than reckoner at pushing through damage, as surprise 2 damage plus intimidate for entire team will win a game or put you in burn range.
So yeah, I think rakdos aggro >>>>>>> than mono red.
Erebos is a great 4 drop, it's a great feeling to know that whatever life-total you've left your opponent on, that's where he's going to stay while you build up the alpha striker with Mogis's Marauder.
Speaking of which, Mogis's Maruader is a boss. I'll say this quietly, but he's better than Hellrider. You can't stop the intimidate from happening, killing him before combat has no effect, and he makes sure all your power goes through (since everything has B in it). He takes a stalled boardstate and wins the game for you immediately.
Quite happy to board in Thoughtseize and Duress against control decks to pre-emptively hit their Sweepers.
Scrivener is probably a bad thing, but I like the idea of vomiting out my hand and generating card advantage, and this deck drops it's hand super quick. That said, against decks you know run sweepers you'll probably want to board it out and in game 1 just acknowledge you probably won't trigger the ability as you don't over-extend.
Removal package could use work, but I like the Mortars to hit Blood Baron of Vizkopa (along with Loxodon Smiter) since that hits us hard, but again Erebos helps us out there.
Time to critique:
Mono-black will be sub-par to the B/x variants, of which I think BR is in the best position although BG could have promise. Burn is relevant, having access to 2 drops like Spike Jester over junk like Child of Night (as much as I want to see the card work) and Thrill-kill Assassin.
Pack Rat - ugh. You build the deck around redundancy and the Mogis alpha-strike. You shouldn't be on turn 6/7 generating rat tokens, at that stage you either have board presence and are a Mogis away from the alpha or you've been swept and you're waiting on something to impact the board (Exava and your burn). You can try turn me on this though...
I don't like the Fire-drinker Satyr pick either, that's for red decks, we're black and have Tormented Hero
@jespermakkinje: Thanks for your post, and I'd be very happy to see your list! You bring up some good points too. However, if red is the second color, I'm not sold on Firefist Striker. Ideally his ability is irrelevant, except against Blood Baron, but we have other tools to more effectively manage him, IF he ever comes down (Mortars in particular, as well as Erebos), and also TS/Lifebane to keep him away entirely. We have plenty of good 2-drops without him, but yeah, regardless, I could see running 2, maybe 3 of them. He is a similar effect to Marauder, especially against midrange.
I'll likely be playing in the Cleveland, OH SCG Open this weekend (if I'm able to get work off). If so, I'm still torn between playing one of the aggro decks we're discussing here or some control brew/variant of my own. Pretty sure it's black aggro for me though, even though I prefer the draw/go play style myself.
If I do go aggressive, and unless I dramatically change my opinions, I think mono-black is actually still going to be my deck of choice. This is in no small part because it's pretty much my own brew, which always feels very refreshing to me, like it's the right way to go, if that makes any sense lol. But then I've always been that way. But I'm also of the belief that a second color isn't necessary.
Some of the reasons to run a second color, as I see it: Red: Better reach with burn, a couple more strong aggressive creatures. White: Better utility creatures against aggro (Imposing Sovereign, maybe Tithe Drinker/High Priest of Penance). Orzhov Charm? Green: Some other strong 2-3 drops, more versatile removal, better survival against sweepers. Blue: Tempo gains? Fate Fortold, Spell Rupture, Hidden Strings... Not much here.
Now I'm not going to say that Black has everything - far from it - or that we aren't missing out on some tools for not going a second color. But again, I'm not convinced any are needed, especially since we are looking to close out the game before we start needing extra utility.
Some tools that black has, all of which could be maindecked, depending on the meta: Anti-aggro: Pharika's Cure One of the best cards black has for that purpose, and a strong one in general, I may very well end up maindecking 3-4 if I think rdw/ww will be prevalent.
There's also child of night, which doubles as a bear that fits our curve nicely. Anti-midrange: Doom Blade For a 2-drop, takes out Fleecemane Lion, Smiter, Omenspeaker (if we care), Scavenging Ooze, Stormbreath Dragon, Boros Reckoner, etc. Very big deal, except versus the Rock, and maybe Dega. And of course, we have edicts for situational removal. Thoughtseize/Lifebane Zombie Powerful tools, and either one (or both) can be seen MB.
Against Control is I feel where we struggle, primarily against Anger of the Gods/Supreme Verdict. But then again, we do have TS, and especially if it's verdict, we have an extra turn to either commit to the board and set up a win, or not, and play around it.
One note on AotG: A tool I'm thinking of running either way is Dead reveler. It's a solid 3/4 for 3, which fits on our curve, and works nicely with Marauder, AND it survives Anger. It's also out of Lightning Strike range. I like it for the same reason as Thrill-Kill Assassin, which is out of Shock/MJ range (and also trades up every time).
As for the general fields: Mono-black still has the speed, and still has the removal/utility, with a stronger mana base to boot, especially when running mutavault. I feel it's really mostly a preference thing, at least for now. Time (and much testing) will dictate if a second color is required or not.
So yeah, as always I'd be very happy to hear peoples' opinions, especially if anyone has any insights/comments on a mono/black variant! I'll be posting an updated decklist soon as well (and hopefully getting in some more testing!).
I took the below list to my local FNM this past Friday and ended up going 3-1. Here's a quick tournament report.
Match 1 vs R/G Aggro (Loss 1-2)
This deck was a mostly red deck with a little bit of green.
The first game the board stalled after we each played a few guys and took a little damage. A turn five hasty Cerberus proved too difficult to deal with and I rode him to victory.
I sided to make the deck faster, removing the Hammers and Cerberus, bringing in 4 shocks.
Second game he had a BTE nut draw (BTE, BTE, Madcap Skills) and I didn't have the needed removal in time.
Third game I lost due to a play mistake. During the second game, I saw my opponent had instant speed pump spells in the deck. This game he put a madcap on a BTE turn 2 and passed to me. I could have played Lightning Strike during my main phase, but I elected to wait until his turn. Strike was responded to by the pump spell and I didn't get another chance to turn the tide.
Match 2 vs R/G Aggro (Win 2-0)
A more traditional gruul deck. Compared to round one, this deck was packing scavenging ooze and had a bunch of Planeswalkers (Xenagos and Domri).
First game I had the needed removal for an early scavenging ooze and curved out nicely. Sealed the game w/ a 9 point alpha strike behind a Marauder.
I sided out both Cerberus, Hammers, and the 3 Marauders. I brought in 4 shocks and 3 Lifebanes. I chose to replace the marauders with the lifebanes to keep the curve intact, even though they did help the first game.
Second game a third turn Lifebane snagged a crucial Ghor-Clan and set up a clock. Won the game by flinging a Flailer for lethal after a few turns.
Match 3 vs U/B Control (Win 2-0)
This deck was a Dimir Control deck attempting to abuse whip + Gray Merchant.
First game I curved out nicely with threats but my opponent was able to stay in the game behind two huge gray merchant activations (CIP, Whipped back in). Fortunately, he did not have an answer for Exava, who was able to take all the life back and win the game.
I sided out the 3 Marauders and brought in 2 duress, 1 mortars. At this point, I wished I had a third duress to bring in. Since he had black creatures, I wanted to dump the Marauders. I chose Mortars as the third card because I had seen the Gray Merchant (4 toughness) and thought I might be able to make a tempo play. It didn't come up.
Game two I just had more questions than he had answers. I curved out nicely and he helped me along with a thoughtseize early and some shocklands.
Match 4 vs GWR Auras (Win 2-1)
This deck was trying to put a bunch of strong enchantments (Courage, Madcap) on hexproof guys.
First game I had the removal I needed and a fourth turn Exava, which ended up being impossible to deal with. I didn't see much of his deck in this game, outside of his very non-basic manabase.
I sided in 4 Burning Earths and took out the Marauders and a hammer.
Second game he loaded up a mana dork with a ton of attachments. The lifelink on Unflinching Courage gave him the edge in a race and I was unable to keep up.
Third game I landed a burning earth and a pair of Desecration Demons. He was able to load up another mana elf, but the pair of demons proved to be enough to double block it or fly over the top.
Marauder: The fact that almost all the creatures are both red and black makes the intimidate less useful than it might be in a mono-black deck. Still, it came in handy during the tournament.
Hammer: I used the haste on it a few times, but Exava's haste is pretty much just as good. I never had the lands to really start making golems. I think this card can go to the sideboard.
Cerberus is a beating when he works, but I kept wondering if Stormbreath might be a better card in this slot.
Exava might be the best card in the deck. She's a PW killer, has a very awkward power/toughness when unleashed and makes Cacklers a good topdeck.
Overall I really like the deck, and will be playing something similar next week. I might add some doomblades to the side (especially after GW won Cleveland) and try to find room for Chandra.
Leech removed: Mogis Mauader, Boon of Erebos, Tormented Hero, Thoughtseize. Feel free to remove this modtext, it's just a marker for the images I removed.
Since Theros was fully spoiled (and even shortly before) I've been thinking about building a Black-based aggro deck. Black has always been my favorite color flavor-wise. I generally would prefer a Black control build, but now we are losing Mutilate, making non-U/W control far less viable in the upcoming standard. More than that, black is gaining far more tools from Theros alone that fit themselves into a more aggressive/middlerange archetype.
That being said, one of the major disadvantages that black based aggro lists have is their lack of reach. This is STILL the case. Previously we had Bump in the Night, which is a great card for simply pushing through damage, but it lacked burn's ability to take out early blockers as well. In fact, burn is one of the few reasons I would consider adding Red as a second color. Sadly, we're even losing Blood Artist.
However, I feel black can still be a powerful color for aggressive players once Theros is released. While we are losing Gravecrawler and Diregraf Ghoul as one-drops, we gain Tormented Hero, and still have Rakdos Cackler. And we gain much, much more.
The key pieces we are gaining, as I see it, are as follows:
Mogis's Marauder: The absolute kingpin of this deck. It had a brief mention I believe in a Star City Games article a while back... However, that article listed it as a one-of. I cannot stress how powerful this guy is, in theory and in testing. A 2/2 with haste for 3? Not very impressive. But it has the ability to grant EVERY ONE of your creatures not only haste, but intimidate, for the turn in comes down. This generally allows to to alpha strike every time you play one without fear of being blocked. This can be as early as turn 3, or any time later. This ability simple cannot be ignored.
Other cards we are gaining:
Erebos, God of the Dead: In an aggressive Black deck, he is most often a creature, and a strong one. Against other aggro builds, like most gods, he's very tough to beat. His passive and activated abilities also both make him strong against control. He is also a very strong player against Blood Baron, a card that otherwise HAS to be Thoughseized away.
Boon of Erebos: A deceptively strong support card. The life loss is relevant, but it serves as a pump spell and a way to save your creature.
Thoughtseize: A strong card against any midrange or control decks, but lackluster against aggro. Still, it's a good out to anything for just one mana.
This is a preliminary list I've put together:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
2 Shadow Alley Denizen
4 Child of Night
2 Pack Rat
4 Rakdos ShredFreak
4 Thrill-kill Assassin
2 Lifebane Zombie
4 Mogis's Marauder
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Boon of Erebos
4 Doom Blade
Lands
22 Swamp
This deck allows for very brutal openings with its ability to simply not care about opposing blockers. While I can't say for certain that black colored blockers won't be common in the upcoming meta, I would be surprised if they were. This makes mass-intimidate through Marauder very, very powerful. Shadow Alley Denizen, while fairly janky, provides a similar effect by generally allowing at least one of our guys to get through a turn. Although he should probably be moved to the sideboard, if kept at all, he is a card I am testing with.
Child of Night is a decent bear that helps recover from some of our self-induced life loss against other aggressive decks. Thrill-Kill Assassin can be a good blocker, but he's mainly there as a 3-toughness attacker to combat Shock and Magma Jet, as both cards I forsee being quite common.
Pack Rat is a funny little guy that is never really played. But I feel he is quite strong in an aggressive build. Sure, he costs cards to activate, but that just means he's turning creatures into other creatures, or lands into creatures. These copies can be brought in at instant speed, and get progressively powerful the more you make. Casting him gives you a 1/1. Activating him once gives an additional 3 power, as you get a 2/2 which in turn makes the original one a 2/2. Activating him AGAIN nets you an additional 5 power for the same reason. From there, it gets fairly degenerate. He's in as a 2-of for his ability to fight through land pockets and recover from wraths.
The downside of this build is still it's lack of reach and difficulty fighting against sweepers, but both of these factors can be remedied by splashing a second color (red for burn, and maybe even green for Golgari Charm's regenerate ability, as well as strong creatures like Dreg Mangler). I personally am on a more mono-black track, but I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts on any black-heavy aggro lists that come up here.
Some other cards that could potentially fit right in, Mb or Sb, that I have not listed above:
Duress
Blood Scrivener
Whip of Erebos (Slow, but very powerful in any match up due to its life gain and reanimation effect)
Pharika's Cure (strong anti-aggro card, may end up being necessary)
Agent of Fates
Dark Prophecy?
Hero's Downfall (Probably shouldn't be maindecked due to its mana cost, but a strong removal spell all the same)
Read the Bones
Nighthowler
Gray Merchant of Asphodel (I'm not convinced that upping our curve to include a 5-drop is the right way to go, but his effect, especially with a field full of black creatures, is immensely powerful. Also gains us back precious life)
With all that said, I look forward to hearing what people think! Pleae share any thoughts and ideas you may have!
Yes it would. Say X was 1 the card would have to target the one you waned. I like this it can make for some nice Iinteractions.
An Enter the Battlefield trigger is not the same as a target when casting a spell, as it doesn't happen until after resolution.
No, it doesn't. Mogis Marauder's ability is a triggered ability. Heroic only applies to spells.
4x mogis's marauder
4x xathrid necromancer
They basically serve the same purpose - allow you to tap dudes sideways each turn and not care about blocks. Necromancer also protects against wraths.
There is also agent of fates and lifebane zombie which do similar thing, but for themselves rather for everyone else.
The problem is that all good cards are in 3cmc slot.
I'd start here:
4x tormented hero
4x rakdos shredfreak
4x thrill-kill assassin
4x mogis's marauder
4x xathrid necromancer
4x boon of erebos
4x removal
That leaves 4-7 random cards to figure out.
Personally I would like to splash white for path of bravery. White will also give access to sin collector in SB.
Also I'm pretty sure either mutavault or dark prophecy should be here.
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Spike Jester
3 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Hellhole Flailer
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mogis's Marauder
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Underworld Cerberus
2 Thoughtseize
2 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Dreadbore
Lands:23
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault
7 Swamp
6 Mountain
This is what i would run personally.
So regardless of going B or r/b 4 necromancer is a must include.
I certainly feel some number of thought seize should be in the deck as well.
Man siding with this thing could be beautiful..."eyes light up!"
I like R/B for this reason, using Chandra to make sure big bodies like Blood Baron and Desecration Demon(without losing one of your guys) can't block. She also is great in the mirror considering almost everything black and aggressively costed has 1 toughness, and in slower games she can generate some card advantage. I don't see a matchup that she would be bad in. I think I'll be playing something like this in the early days of Theros standard:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Spike Jester
3 Mogis's Marauder
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Magma Jet
3 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Thoughtseize
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault
9 Mountain
6 Swamp
Barons are easy to beat even in monoblack by using edict effects, sacrifice outlets or lifebanes.
The more I think about it, while a second color may not be necessary I think Red might be worth adding, just for the burn (and probably Spike Jester). My main issue is that with the Innistrad/M13 Duals leaving, all we'll have to complement the Shock lands are more lands that etb tapped. This could potentially make our curve a lot worse. However, it'd probably just be fine to run 4x Blood Crypt, and the rest basics, with maybe 2-3 of the new R/B duals (name eludes me) mixed in. T2 Spike Jester is still annoying, but I doubt it would regularly be an issue.
As you guys have mentioned, Blood Baron is a large problem once it hits the field. This makes Mizzium Mortars and even Skullcrack a lot better, when adding red. However, mono black can still handle it. We have several ways to deal with it before it comes down, even in the main (Lifebane Zombie, and Thoughtseize, which I do plan to run a few of maindeck) and if we've drawn it, we have Erebos for once it hits. In addition, as the OP pointed out, we have edicts, although those will probably have to be sided in.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
This is my updated list, though I haven't done more than goldfish with it yet:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Child of Night
2 Pack Rat
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
3 Lifebane Zombie
4 Mogis's Marauder
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Boon of Erebos
3 Doom Blade
2 Whip of Erebos
Lands
20 Swamp
2 Mutavault
As you can see, my only changes were:
-2 Shadow Alley Denizen, -1 Doom Blade, -2 Swamp
+2Whip of Erebos, +1 Lifebane Zombie, +2 Mutavault
The Whip was my main focus, the other changes are obvious. I realized what I want against aggro is further ways to gain life without sacrificing too much of my own aggression, and what I wanted against Midrange/Control was more ways to apply pressure. Erebos himself seems like he'll be similarly strong in every matchup, but If it came down to a choice of which one I want resolved more frequently, I'd choose the Whip. Stronger against aggro (provided I have board presence), and allows for more swings even after I run out of gas in hand.
Anger of the God's will still be very annoying, as it even fights the Whip by exiling all the guys it kills, but whatever. We'll just have to either play around it or fight through it. Both are quite possible to accomplish.
I'll be playing on the first day of Theros Standard at my lgs this Friday, likely with this or a similar deck, and I'm very excited! Still a few days to go, though. In the meantime, I like what everyone's sharing!
Mapcap Skills on Tormented Hero though. Hero attacks 5/1 turn 2; they are also loosing 1 for his Heroic Trigger. So really its 6.
Monoblack Aggro decks like this are really nice going into an open Meta, especially after a rotation. For this deck to have longevity, it needs to be able to withstand shifts and slowdown. Mogi's Marauders is pretty amazing.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
ANYWAY, how come I never see any black/green aggro lists? I used to run down decks with my G/B zombies all the time due to the fairly large amount of regeneration to prevent death.
Which hasn't changed, even though I lose gravecrawler and messenger but I picked up Boon of Erebos which I really like if we play with heroic cards as both a way to save vital creatures and a combat pump.
Here is the decklist I am playtesting at the moment:
9 Swamp
8 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Golgari Guildgate
Creatures 27
4 Experiment One
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tormented Hero
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 Agent of the fates
2 Desecration Demon
2 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Boon of Erebos
2 Far // Away
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Doomblade
1 Putrefy
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Putrefy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Lifebane Zombie
Since I don't use the marauder I use Desecration Demon for a "finisher" and soft removal. Reaper sets up my draw so I don't draw more land when I don't need it. Far // Away is for Obzedat and Blood Baron of Vizkopa since, outside of a heroic trigger on agent, those two cards I kinda can't deal with.
Going Golgari aggro may have to do with the fact that I expect quite a bit of control decks out and about post Innistrad and Varolz is just such a bomb against (non-syncopate) counterspells and removal, not to mention I have four creatures that are hard to remove and 3 spells that help it.
One of the things I worry about with this deck is Golgari Charm vs Fade into Antiquity. I'm leaning towards the charm because of all three effects and my sacrifice effects "should" help against the gods but those that don't ever turn into creatures could be a problem >.< I'll finally get to playtest this deck tomorrow evening (stupid life!) to figure out the kinks in the deck.
Standard
RBUGrixis Tutelage
BR Devoid Beatdown
Modern
RAffinity
B 8 Rack
Legacy
0 Dredge
EDH
RBBladewing's Zombie Dragons
BUGRW Sliver Legion's Overrun
4 Madcap Skills
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Spike Jester
3 Mogis's Marauder
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
2 Doom Blade
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Rakdos Cackler
2 Agent of the Fates
4 Blood Crypt
11 Swamp
8 Mountain
2 Shock
2 Rakdos's Return
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
4 blood crypt
11 swamp
7 mountain
Creatures: 27
4 tormented hero
4 rakdos cackled
4 rakdos shred-freak
4 spike jester
4 mogis's marauder
4 hellhole flailer
3 exava, rakdos blood witch
4 thoughtseize
4 Lightning strike
3 magma jet
4 burning earth
4 volcanic strength
3 dreadbore
2 duress
2 goblin diplomat
SB could use some work but MB looks solid. What do you all think?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
Duly noted, although madcaps skills isn't a replacement for volcanic strength, since it was guaranteed to get past blockers.
Regardless, I disagree with your statement about only red being fast enough to get through sweepers. There are actually MORE haste creatures in rakdos colors, most notably spike jester and bloodwitch, both of which are fantastic post sweep or really at any time. Also, thoughtseize perfect in an aggressive deck that doesn't care as much about its life total, as it's the perfect preemptive answer for cards primarily red decks cant answer effectively (sweepers, blood baron, etc). I think rakdos aggro will be much better than mono red because of this, as thoughtseize gives the deck essentially 12 one drops to work with rather than 8 in mono red (and they have to run the new jackal pup, which is a subpar one drop). Not only that, but rakdos doesn't even lose tempo by playing a turn 1 thoughtseize, as just about all the cards have haste, unlike again the mono red counterpart. NOT ONLY THAT, but hellhole flailer is pretty sick reach, AND the deck has more synergy than mono red, as certain cards that don't have hast (cackler/flailer) can be given haste post bloodwitch.
Only thing they have over rakdos is ash zealot (decent loss but not unbearable as spike jester is comparable) and boros reckoner. But reckoner is a SB card in super fast mono red aggro to deal with midrange, and I honestly believe that mogis marauder is just as amazing if not better than reckoner at pushing through damage, as surprise 2 damage plus intimidate for entire team will win a game or put you in burn range.
So yeah, I think rakdos aggro >>>>>>> than mono red.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9733836#post9733836
This is the deck i've been grinding for the TCG 5k in Waco that i hopefully can attend this saturday. Input would be awesome!
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Annihilating Fire
4 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Rakdos guildgate
8 Mountain
5 Swamp
3 Peak Eruption
4 Skullcrack
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Erebos
2 Underworld Connections
2 Dreadbore
3 Tormented Hero
4 Spike Jester
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
3 Blood Scrivener
4 Mogis's Marauder
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Lightning Strike
2 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
4 Rakdos Guildgate
5 Mountain
10 Swamp
Obviously sideboard is a work in progress.
Erebos is a great 4 drop, it's a great feeling to know that whatever life-total you've left your opponent on, that's where he's going to stay while you build up the alpha striker with Mogis's Marauder.
Speaking of which, Mogis's Maruader is a boss. I'll say this quietly, but he's better than Hellrider. You can't stop the intimidate from happening, killing him before combat has no effect, and he makes sure all your power goes through (since everything has B in it). He takes a stalled boardstate and wins the game for you immediately.
Quite happy to board in Thoughtseize and Duress against control decks to pre-emptively hit their Sweepers.
Scrivener is probably a bad thing, but I like the idea of vomiting out my hand and generating card advantage, and this deck drops it's hand super quick. That said, against decks you know run sweepers you'll probably want to board it out and in game 1 just acknowledge you probably won't trigger the ability as you don't over-extend.
Removal package could use work, but I like the Mortars to hit Blood Baron of Vizkopa (along with Loxodon Smiter) since that hits us hard, but again Erebos helps us out there.
Time to critique:
Mono-black will be sub-par to the B/x variants, of which I think BR is in the best position although BG could have promise. Burn is relevant, having access to 2 drops like Spike Jester over junk like Child of Night (as much as I want to see the card work) and Thrill-kill Assassin.
Pack Rat - ugh. You build the deck around redundancy and the Mogis alpha-strike. You shouldn't be on turn 6/7 generating rat tokens, at that stage you either have board presence and are a Mogis away from the alpha or you've been swept and you're waiting on something to impact the board (Exava and your burn). You can try turn me on this though...
I don't like the Fire-drinker Satyr pick either, that's for red decks, we're black and have Tormented Hero
I'll likely be playing in the Cleveland, OH SCG Open this weekend (if I'm able to get work off). If so, I'm still torn between playing one of the aggro decks we're discussing here or some control brew/variant of my own. Pretty sure it's black aggro for me though, even though I prefer the draw/go play style myself.
If I do go aggressive, and unless I dramatically change my opinions, I think mono-black is actually still going to be my deck of choice. This is in no small part because it's pretty much my own brew, which always feels very refreshing to me, like it's the right way to go, if that makes any sense lol. But then I've always been that way. But I'm also of the belief that a second color isn't necessary.
Some of the reasons to run a second color, as I see it:
Red: Better reach with burn, a couple more strong aggressive creatures.
White: Better utility creatures against aggro (Imposing Sovereign, maybe Tithe Drinker/High Priest of Penance). Orzhov Charm?
Green: Some other strong 2-3 drops, more versatile removal, better survival against sweepers.
Blue: Tempo gains? Fate Fortold, Spell Rupture, Hidden Strings... Not much here.
Now I'm not going to say that Black has everything - far from it - or that we aren't missing out on some tools for not going a second color. But again, I'm not convinced any are needed, especially since we are looking to close out the game before we start needing extra utility.
Some tools that black has, all of which could be maindecked, depending on the meta:
Anti-aggro: Pharika's Cure One of the best cards black has for that purpose, and a strong one in general, I may very well end up maindecking 3-4 if I think rdw/ww will be prevalent.
There's also child of night, which doubles as a bear that fits our curve nicely.
Anti-midrange: Doom Blade For a 2-drop, takes out Fleecemane Lion, Smiter, Omenspeaker (if we care), Scavenging Ooze, Stormbreath Dragon, Boros Reckoner, etc. Very big deal, except versus the Rock, and maybe Dega. And of course, we have edicts for situational removal.
Thoughtseize/Lifebane Zombie Powerful tools, and either one (or both) can be seen MB.
Against Control is I feel where we struggle, primarily against Anger of the Gods/Supreme Verdict. But then again, we do have TS, and especially if it's verdict, we have an extra turn to either commit to the board and set up a win, or not, and play around it.
One note on AotG: A tool I'm thinking of running either way is Dead reveler. It's a solid 3/4 for 3, which fits on our curve, and works nicely with Marauder, AND it survives Anger. It's also out of Lightning Strike range. I like it for the same reason as Thrill-Kill Assassin, which is out of Shock/MJ range (and also trades up every time).
As for the general fields: Mono-black still has the speed, and still has the removal/utility, with a stronger mana base to boot, especially when running mutavault. I feel it's really mostly a preference thing, at least for now. Time (and much testing) will dictate if a second color is required or not.
So yeah, as always I'd be very happy to hear peoples' opinions, especially if anyone has any insights/comments on a mono/black variant! I'll be posting an updated decklist soon as well (and hopefully getting in some more testing!).
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Desecration Demon
2 Sire of Insanity
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Lightning Strike
3 Rakdos's Return
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Blood Crypt
5 Swamp
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Mutavault
4 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
3 Peak Eruption
4 Anger of the Gods
Match 1 vs R/G Aggro (Loss 1-2)
This deck was a mostly red deck with a little bit of green.
The first game the board stalled after we each played a few guys and took a little damage. A turn five hasty Cerberus proved too difficult to deal with and I rode him to victory.
I sided to make the deck faster, removing the Hammers and Cerberus, bringing in 4 shocks.
Second game he had a BTE nut draw (BTE, BTE, Madcap Skills) and I didn't have the needed removal in time.
Third game I lost due to a play mistake. During the second game, I saw my opponent had instant speed pump spells in the deck. This game he put a madcap on a BTE turn 2 and passed to me. I could have played Lightning Strike during my main phase, but I elected to wait until his turn. Strike was responded to by the pump spell and I didn't get another chance to turn the tide.
Match 2 vs R/G Aggro (Win 2-0)
A more traditional gruul deck. Compared to round one, this deck was packing scavenging ooze and had a bunch of Planeswalkers (Xenagos and Domri).
First game I had the needed removal for an early scavenging ooze and curved out nicely. Sealed the game w/ a 9 point alpha strike behind a Marauder.
I sided out both Cerberus, Hammers, and the 3 Marauders. I brought in 4 shocks and 3 Lifebanes. I chose to replace the marauders with the lifebanes to keep the curve intact, even though they did help the first game.
Second game a third turn Lifebane snagged a crucial Ghor-Clan and set up a clock. Won the game by flinging a Flailer for lethal after a few turns.
Match 3 vs U/B Control (Win 2-0)
This deck was a Dimir Control deck attempting to abuse whip + Gray Merchant.
First game I curved out nicely with threats but my opponent was able to stay in the game behind two huge gray merchant activations (CIP, Whipped back in). Fortunately, he did not have an answer for Exava, who was able to take all the life back and win the game.
I sided out the 3 Marauders and brought in 2 duress, 1 mortars. At this point, I wished I had a third duress to bring in. Since he had black creatures, I wanted to dump the Marauders. I chose Mortars as the third card because I had seen the Gray Merchant (4 toughness) and thought I might be able to make a tempo play. It didn't come up.
Game two I just had more questions than he had answers. I curved out nicely and he helped me along with a thoughtseize early and some shocklands.
Match 4 vs GWR Auras (Win 2-1)
This deck was trying to put a bunch of strong enchantments (Courage, Madcap) on hexproof guys.
First game I had the removal I needed and a fourth turn Exava, which ended up being impossible to deal with. I didn't see much of his deck in this game, outside of his very non-basic manabase.
I sided in 4 Burning Earths and took out the Marauders and a hammer.
Second game he loaded up a mana dork with a ton of attachments. The lifelink on Unflinching Courage gave him the edge in a race and I was unable to keep up.
Third game I landed a burning earth and a pair of Desecration Demons. He was able to load up another mana elf, but the pair of demons proved to be enough to double block it or fly over the top.
4 Spike Jester
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Hellhole Flailer
3 Mogis's Marauder
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Desecration Demon
2 Underworld Cerberus
4 Lightning Strike
4 Dreadbore
8 Mountain
9 Swamp
3 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood crypt
4 Burning Earth
4 Shock
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Duress
3 Lifebane Zombie
A few final thoughts.
Marauder: The fact that almost all the creatures are both red and black makes the intimidate less useful than it might be in a mono-black deck. Still, it came in handy during the tournament.
Hammer: I used the haste on it a few times, but Exava's haste is pretty much just as good. I never had the lands to really start making golems. I think this card can go to the sideboard.
Cerberus is a beating when he works, but I kept wondering if Stormbreath might be a better card in this slot.
Exava might be the best card in the deck. She's a PW killer, has a very awkward power/toughness when unleashed and makes Cacklers a good topdeck.
Overall I really like the deck, and will be playing something similar next week. I might add some doomblades to the side (especially after GW won Cleveland) and try to find room for Chandra.