Hi, everyone. I'm currently playing GW Aggro, but I'm seriously considering switching to Junk to take advantage of all the sweet removal and disruption in black, where it is seriously lacking in GW.
I am very concerned, however, about the amount of damage I will have to take from lands to keep things running smoothly. Here is the list I think I'll be sleeving up:
After some playtesting, I'm taking 4 damage on average to keep up a T1 and T2 play. If I'm playing against a slower deck, usually 2-4 damage through lands after a T1 tapped shockland. Is this average, and is this manageable in the long-game? I haven't played 3 colors very much, and before I sleeve up I'd like some people to tell me their results with life totals and a 3 color manabase.
I do have Ooze to gobble Decayed and Bladed critters to gain back some life, but is this enough at FNM?
Glad to see other people are interested in the deck though.
Also very happy to see it succeed.
I noticed, which is why I deleted it.
Though I think Voice of Resurgence should be dropped for Blood Baron of Vizkopa. He already has a ton of two drops and the games he did play it, VoR had very little impact. While Blood Baron is very strong, stabilizes the board when he hits, and only really falls to mizzium mortars.
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Though I think Voice of Resurgence should be dropped for Blood Baron of Vizkopa. He already has a ton of two drops and the games he did play it, VoR had very little impact. While Blood Baron is very strong, stabilizes the board when he hits, and only really falls to mizzium mortars.
I honestly wouldnt suggest dropping a two drop for more 5 drops. That just makes your curve way too high. I also, after playing my list with 3 Blood Barons in it at FNM Blood Baron was very underwhelming. I played him on t4 against mono red and still died. Im just not super impressed with him. I will keep testing him though. As for Voice, he is very good. He is what makes this deck resilient, and aggressive. He helps the aggro matchup, and control matchups so so so much. Too valuable to drop imo.
I think Obzedat with Whip is being undervalued in these forums. I see this combo a lot in top decks so far. Solid top 8 deck.
Speaking from experience, YES.
Whip + Obzedat resolving is extremely difficult to beat.
Whip + Obzedat + Obzedat(using the Whip to recur again for extra drain) is very nearly impossible to beat.
And that is before you even get anything else into play... just those two cards alone on the battlefield can win games, even with your opponent doing everything they can to beat it. It just isn't feasible to race it. 7 point of life-gain, and a guaranteed 2 points of damage. 9 points of life-gain, and a guaranteed 4 points of damage if you have double Obzedat. Big enough to kill most things if they block. And the best part is, the individual components are still extremely strong on their own, even if you never manage to pair them(which, I still managed to do in 4 of my 5 matches during FNM with my BW Midrange deck).
Though I think Voice of Resurgence should be dropped for Blood Baron of Vizkopa. He already has a ton of two drops and the games he did play it, VoR had very little impact. While Blood Baron is very strong, stabilizes the board when he hits, and only really falls to mizzium mortars.
I have yet to see BBoV win a game. He is annoying and has to be dealt with, but as I have said before, he doesn't strike me as a finisher. Against certain match-up he is absolute gold, much like lifebane zombie. I see he as a SB choice in this deck. Obzedat is just much more consistent.
I think Obzedat with Whip is being undervalued in these forums. I see this combo a lot in top decks so far. Solid top 8 deck.
Turn 4 Obzedat is heart breaking and I love doing it to opponents. I currently have 2 in my deck, but after seeing this list above I am debating a third. Because as long as you have the whip in play, it isn't a dead card. The whip is actually one reason I keep Putrefy in my deck. Abrupt Decay clears most things, but the whip is too much of a game changer to have lingering around.
One thing that is interesting about the SCG Cleveland top 8 list is no mainboard draw that I saw. I am currently MB 2x underworld connections and I am not sure if I want more draw. I have been following the rock thread and most of those decks are running 2x underworld connections and 3x read the bones. But they are digging more for the Gray Merchant. So do you guys think in a deck that isn't looking for devotion, is Read the bones or underworld connections better?
Also, with all the ramp that deck has voice would seem a bit better if replaced by Reaper of the Wilds. The scry on her is just fantastic and dropping her turn 3 followed by an obzedat is nasty.
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One thing that is interesting about the SCG Cleveland top 8 list is no mainboard draw that I saw. I am currently MB 2x underworld connections and I am not sure if I want more draw. I have been following the rock thread and most of those decks are running 2x underworld connections and 3x read the bones. But they are digging more for the Gray Merchant. So do you guys think in a deck that isn't looking for devotion, is Read the bones or underworld connections better?
The reason why you don't see junk with read the bones or underworld connections is that it has to run 12 shocklands. And sacrificing more health to draw cards puts you in a very precarious spot against aggro and other midrange decks. Though its not too bad against control decks.
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I honestly wouldnt suggest dropping a two drop for more 5 drops. That just makes your curve way too high. I also, after playing my list with 3 Blood Barons in it at FNM Blood Baron was very underwhelming. I played him on t4 against mono red and still died. Im just not super impressed with him. I will keep testing him though. As for Voice, he is very good. He is what makes this deck resilient, and aggressive. He helps the aggro matchup, and control matchups so so so much. Too valuable to drop imo.
Fully agree - I wouldn't drop Voices for well, anything really.... very worth it as a MB slot and is such a great card. Also as you stated, adding more 5 drops to an already high curve is just asking to get beaten down by aggro decks.
The reason why you don't see junk with read the bones or underworld connections is that it has to run 12 shocklands. And sacrificing more health to draw cards puts you in a very precarious spot against aggro and other midrange decks. Though its not too bad against control decks.
The Junk list that placed 2nd has 2 UC in the side - which I think is the right place for them. Bring them in against control when your life total won't mean much until later in the game.
Totally agree with multiple posters, Voice of Resurgence is so good. Unless something even more awesome is printed I don't ever see replacing it until it cycles out. Again as stated, he helps with aggro and against control. He really punishes your opponent for playing on your turn.
Hi, everyone. I'm currently playing GW Aggro, but I'm seriously considering switching to Junk to take advantage of all the sweet removal and disruption in black, where it is seriously lacking in GW.
I am very concerned, however, about the amount of damage I will have to take from lands to keep things running smoothly. Here is the list I think I'll be sleeving up:
After some playtesting, I'm taking 4 damage on average to keep up a T1 and T2 play. If I'm playing against a slower deck, usually 2-4 damage through lands after a T1 tapped shockland. Is this average, and is this manageable in the long-game? I haven't played 3 colors very much, and before I sleeve up I'd like some people to tell me their results with life totals and a 3 color manabase.
I do have Ooze to gobble Decayed and Bladed critters to gain back some life, but is this enough at FNM?
Hi, everyone. I'm currently playing GW Aggro, but I'm seriously considering switching to Junk to take advantage of all the sweet removal and disruption in black, where it is seriously lacking in GW.
I am very concerned, however, about the amount of damage I will have to take from lands to keep things running smoothly. Here is the list I think I'll be sleeving up:
After some playtesting, I'm taking 4 damage on average to keep up a T1 and T2 play. If I'm playing against a slower deck, usually 2-4 damage through lands after a T1 tapped shockland. Is this average, and is this manageable in the long-game? I haven't played 3 colors very much, and before I sleeve up I'd like some people to tell me their results with life totals and a 3 color manabase.
I do have Ooze to gobble Decayed and Bladed critters to gain back some life, but is this enough at FNM?
Thanks.
I am not a pro-player by any means, but I think your creature choices and some of your spells are off. The biggest thing I see is a lack of life gain, which is similar to what you are seeing.
First on creatures, you need some acceleration. In all of the top lists using B/G/x or W/G/x they have Elvish Mystics or Sylvan Caryatids. In a midrange deck your whole goal is to drop a fatty ASAP. That means you get a Loxodon smiter on T2, which is a big deal against all the aggro and red decks out there. Looking at your list of creatures you have an almagimation of midrange and aggroish creatures. I think Experiment One and Fleecemane Lion, while great cards, are out of place here. The reason I say that is while experiment one does get bigger it takes time, and your deck doesn't manipulate tokens and is not aggro based and until you get 5mana available Fleecemane lion is ok, but ultimately it takes 2 turns or 7 mana to make the lion good. I would take them out and put in some dorks. I prefer Sylvan Caryatid because I run some double W and double B early.
I would also consider a few other solid beaters as replacements. The recent second place SCG Cleveland Junk deck used Sin Collectors which are awesome against control. I personally use Desecration Demon and Reaper of the Wilds because they are such efficient, hardy creatures that if you can drop them turn 3, they just change the game quickly to your favor. I use Fiendslayer Paladin in my deck as a 3x currently. If there is a lot of aggro/RDW/burn in your meta, he is just a beast. His lifelink, can completely stop an aggro deck and give you time to breath and beyond that he is hard to remove. In multiples he becomes quite scary too. If I am facing control, I normally SB him out for Sin Collectors.
On the topic of BBoV, there is a great debate whether BBoV or Obzedat is better. My stance is that Obzedat is better most of the time, but in the mirror match BBoV is a giant pain. If you run the Whip of Erebos (which I think you should, it gives massive amounts of life gain) then you should definitely use Obzedat as the infinite resurrection combo just wins games. When you are talking 9 points of life gain and 4 points of damage a turn your opponents needs some serious heavy hitters to overcome that. The whip will also let you stabilize into mid to late game better.
Your spells look ok, but rootborn defense is out of place here I think. I am not sure it helps you a lot. Sure it makes more beast and wurm tokens, but I think it takes up a valuable spot for Hero's Downfall which you should run 2-3x. Planeswalkers can be very nasty and with Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Chandra, Pyromaster, both Jace's, Domri and Xenagos running around, you want to be able to get rid of them quick before they start taking over the game.
Just my 2cents
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Hi, everyone. I'm currently playing GW Aggro, but I'm seriously considering switching to Junk to take advantage of all the sweet removal and disruption in black, where it is seriously lacking in GW.
I am very concerned, however, about the amount of damage I will have to take from lands to keep things running smoothly. Here is the list I think I'll be sleeving up:
After some playtesting, I'm taking 4 damage on average to keep up a T1 and T2 play. If I'm playing against a slower deck, usually 2-4 damage through lands after a T1 tapped shockland. Is this average, and is this manageable in the long-game? I haven't played 3 colors very much, and before I sleeve up I'd like some people to tell me their results with life totals and a 3 color manabase.
I do have Ooze to gobble Decayed and Bladed critters to gain back some life, but is this enough at FNM?
Thanks.
With your lands, thoughtseize isn't going to do you much good except against control. And having it as a one of isn't worth it. Same with Read the Bones.
I would drop putrefy in favor of Hero's Downfall. Most enchantments you will run into will be 3 cmc or less, ie Detention Sphere and Chained to the Rocks. If you are worried, you can keep putrefy in your side board. Better yet, you can put golgari charm in your side board. It will also double as a sweeper defense instead of rootborn defense, albeit you won't be able to populate. But you have more choices and cheaper cost.
edit: just remembered that putrefy is destroy artifact/creature, not enchantment. But I still think putrefy is better off in the side board and golgari charm is still a good side board card.
Changed over from B/G to junk. This is my list currently. I feel like it wants another 2 drop creature and needs some tweaks still. However it has been working pretty well so far. Sideboard is eh still. I want Voice of Resurgence in there but Scavenging Ooze also seems good to counteract all the life loss.
You have a lot of dorks in your list. I might replace 3-4x of your BBoV with Reaper.
Putrefy as a 2x might be a bit much, but it depends on your aggro. Most of the artifacts I care about are 3cmc or less, which is covered by Abrupt Decay. However, Whip of Erebos is certainly a concern and having removal around for it is a good thing. I would make putrefy a 1x, but that is a personal choice.
it is a good list. I would consider [b]Boon Satyr[/c] or Advent of the Wurm as possible SB cards to handle other BBoV. Mistcutter Hydra is good, but the instant/flash aspect of the other two can save your behind.
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For some reason I always seem to play boros or some mono-red deck on cockatrice. Anyway, tonight I faced a boros token/young pyromancer deck.
Game 1: Had to mulligan down to 5 after 2 hands with one land. Kept a hand with obzedat and 4 lands. Opponent is on play and drops a t2 and t3 YP, I have a t3 Fiendslayer paladin. He board clears with anger of the gods, and gets mana screwed for 2 turns. By this time I get and Obzedat out and draw a whip next turn.
Game 2: I just SB in a third Gaze of granite. I get a decent hand and drop a t2 caryatid, he has a turn 3 reckoner and I get a t3 Paladin. He swings and I take 3 damage. My turn I abrupt decay the reckoner (should have waited since it was tapped) and start swinging with my paladin, celestial flares it. I top deck another Paladin and start causing 4 point life swings. He drops a Elspeth, which isn't a big deal since I had 2x Gaze and 1x Hero's Downfall in my opening hand. I downfall Elspeth after he makes the tokens, another misplay (didn't realize that the downfall resolves before token generation). On my turn I gaze for 0 to clear the tokens. He angers next turn and I top deck a read the bones and get a desecration demon and thoughtseize. I clear his hand of removal and drop the demon. Game over after he didn't top deck an answer.
At this point my deck has not lost a match to any red deck, so I am feeling very comfortable in that matchup. Still need to test against control.
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After testing a little more, I do not like 3 Scavenging Oozes, I think two is going be the right number. I also mentioned this earlier, but I am not sold on Blood Baron. He just isnt that good against, all the green red decks, mono red, or the control decks. He just doesnt cut it. I think Obzedat is better. This is probably the list I will be testing now.
The removal suite is kind of all over the place for testing sake. Seeing what is best for the moving meta. I am becoming more sold on Doom Blade, I like the one of, I also what to test Putrefy more to catch all the gods weapons.
After testing a little more, I do not like 3 Scavenging Oozes, I think two is going be the right number. I also mentioned this earlier, but I am not sold on Blood Baron. He just isnt that good against, all the green red decks, mono red, or the control decks. He just doesnt cut it. I think Obzedat is better. This is probably the list I will be testing now.
The removal suite is kind of all over the place for testing sake. Seeing what is best for the moving meta. I am becoming more sold on Doom Blade, I like the one of, I also what to test Putrefy more to catch all the gods weapons.
How is VoR working for you? I have mixed feelings about it. With all the mana dorks in there, wouldn't you do better with a 4 drop like Desecration Demon or Reaper of the Wilds? I don't have any VoR and I haven't tested them, but DD and Reaper have just been stellar in my testing.
I use one putrefy in my deck for exactly the reason you said above. But I feel like only 1 is necessary since most of the artifacts I worry about are 3cmc (Hammer, Bow, Spear, etc). I have yet to see the bident, the whip is what I really worry about. This another personal thing, but 3x Downfall I think is appropriate. There are plenty of killer Walkers running around now, and I feel like this deck needs fast answers for them. I am never upset when I have a Downfall in my hand.
This is more of a general question, but why does no one play Gaze in their lists? It has really come through for me in many games. I guess it doesn't work well if you are playing VoR and MB wurm, but against other token decks and aggro decks it is a house.
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How is VoR working for you? I have mixed feelings about it. With all the mana dorks in there, wouldn't you do better with a 4 drop like Desecration Demon or Reaper of the Wilds? I don't have any VoR and I haven't tested them, but DD and Reaper have just been stellar in my testing.
I use one putrefy in my deck for exactly the reason you said above. But I feel like only 1 is necessary since most of the artifacts I worry about are 3cmc (Hammer, Bow, Spear, etc). I have yet to see the bident, the whip is what I really worry about. This another personal thing, but 3x Downfall I think is appropriate. There are plenty of killer Walkers running around now, and I feel like this deck needs fast answers for them. I am never upset when I have a Downfall in my hand.
This is more of a general question, but why does no one play Gaze in their lists? It has really come through for me in many games. I guess it doesn't work well if you are playing VoR and MB wurm, but against other token decks and aggro decks it is a house.
Voice had been very good for me, because the times you dont get a mana dork draw he is a very good early drop. He also allows you to use you mana to all its potential. You can go turn 1 dork, turn 2 temple of silence, voice, with no real problems. It doesnt set you behind at all playing a Temple on the two if you can follow it up with a real threat like voice. I dont really want more four drops otherwise I could get really screwed out of some games. Especially DD, he just seems super terrible right now.
3 Downfall could be too many, not really sure yet. We are still so new to the format not sure what the right numbers are for the removal suite are yet.
As for Gaze, I personally think its too slow. Plus yeah I dont want to be killing all my Voices, Wurm Tokens, ect.
You have a lot of dorks in your list. I might replace 3-4x of your BBoV with Reaper.
Putrefy as a 2x might be a bit much, but it depends on your aggro. Most of the artifacts I care about are 3cmc or less, which is covered by Abrupt Decay. However, Whip of Erebos is certainly a concern and having removal around for it is a good thing. I would make putrefy a 1x, but that is a personal choice.
it is a good list. I would consider [b]Boon Satyr[/c] or Advent of the Wurm as possible SB cards to handle other BBoV. Mistcutter Hydra is good, but the instant/flash aspect of the other two can save your behind.
As others have mentioned, Boon Satyr seems good to flash in on Blood Baron of Vizkopa. I am hesitant to take more than 1 or 2 of him out as so far he has proved to be boss. Eight is a lot of dorks but it makes turn 2 Loxodon Smiter and Turn 3 Desecration Demon and Blood Baron of Vizkopa possible pretty frequently. Putrefy looks like it wants to be a one of and maybe be replaced by something else that takes advantage of all my ramp. Primeval Bounty is also pretty sweet if I can make it work.
This is what I have been play testing with my friend who is about to go to PT Theros. The surprise favorite for me is Sylvan Caryatid. Not only does it help with mana acceleration and mana fixing which 3 color desperately needs, it is a wonderful defender. It easily blocks most RDW creatures, can't be removed except by an anger of the gods or overloaded Mizzium Mortars, and can't be targeted by Firefist Striker. I've even been able to power out turn 3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion with 2 Elvish Mystics and a Sylvan Caryatid. Though that is extremely rare, only about a 5% chance of it happening with my current deck.
My biggest problem has been dealing with Ætherling. The only way I can seem to beat him is to win the game before my opponent can put me onto a clock with him. Which can be extended if i get a Blood Baron or a Whip of Erebos out. How are you guys dealing with him?
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recently played against a brew on mws that used these cards and it was pretty potent.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Junk Aristocrats ver. xxxx? I would love for that to work but with no Blood Artist to Fireball opponents out...:-/
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sin Collector
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Silence
3 Advent of the Wurm
2 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Shadowborn Demon
1 Sin Collector
2 Underworld Connections
3 Unflinching Courage
1 Doom Blade
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
Seems pretty solid. Look forward to testing it a little.
I am very concerned, however, about the amount of damage I will have to take from lands to keep things running smoothly. Here is the list I think I'll be sleeving up:
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Experiment One
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Thoughtseize
3 Doom Blade
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Advent of the Wurm
2 Putrefy
1 Read the Bones
1 Rootborn Defenses
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands:
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
1 Temple of Silence
5 Forest
4 Plains
2 Swamp
After some playtesting, I'm taking 4 damage on average to keep up a T1 and T2 play. If I'm playing against a slower deck, usually 2-4 damage through lands after a T1 tapped shockland. Is this average, and is this manageable in the long-game? I haven't played 3 colors very much, and before I sleeve up I'd like some people to tell me their results with life totals and a 3 color manabase.
I do have Ooze to gobble Decayed and Bladed critters to gain back some life, but is this enough at FNM?
Thanks.
Posted this list literally 2 posts ago...
Glad to see other people are interested in the deck though.
Also very happy to see it succeed.
I noticed, which is why I deleted it.
Though I think Voice of Resurgence should be dropped for Blood Baron of Vizkopa. He already has a ton of two drops and the games he did play it, VoR had very little impact. While Blood Baron is very strong, stabilizes the board when he hits, and only really falls to mizzium mortars.
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I honestly wouldnt suggest dropping a two drop for more 5 drops. That just makes your curve way too high. I also, after playing my list with 3 Blood Barons in it at FNM Blood Baron was very underwhelming. I played him on t4 against mono red and still died. Im just not super impressed with him. I will keep testing him though. As for Voice, he is very good. He is what makes this deck resilient, and aggressive. He helps the aggro matchup, and control matchups so so so much. Too valuable to drop imo.
Speaking from experience, YES.
Whip + Obzedat resolving is extremely difficult to beat.
Whip + Obzedat + Obzedat(using the Whip to recur again for extra drain) is very nearly impossible to beat.
And that is before you even get anything else into play... just those two cards alone on the battlefield can win games, even with your opponent doing everything they can to beat it. It just isn't feasible to race it. 7 point of life-gain, and a guaranteed 2 points of damage. 9 points of life-gain, and a guaranteed 4 points of damage if you have double Obzedat. Big enough to kill most things if they block. And the best part is, the individual components are still extremely strong on their own, even if you never manage to pair them(which, I still managed to do in 4 of my 5 matches during FNM with my BW Midrange deck).
I have yet to see BBoV win a game. He is annoying and has to be dealt with, but as I have said before, he doesn't strike me as a finisher. Against certain match-up he is absolute gold, much like lifebane zombie. I see he as a SB choice in this deck. Obzedat is just much more consistent.
Turn 4 Obzedat is heart breaking and I love doing it to opponents. I currently have 2 in my deck, but after seeing this list above I am debating a third. Because as long as you have the whip in play, it isn't a dead card. The whip is actually one reason I keep Putrefy in my deck. Abrupt Decay clears most things, but the whip is too much of a game changer to have lingering around.
One thing that is interesting about the SCG Cleveland top 8 list is no mainboard draw that I saw. I am currently MB 2x underworld connections and I am not sure if I want more draw. I have been following the rock thread and most of those decks are running 2x underworld connections and 3x read the bones. But they are digging more for the Gray Merchant. So do you guys think in a deck that isn't looking for devotion, is Read the bones or underworld connections better?
Also, with all the ramp that deck has voice would seem a bit better if replaced by Reaper of the Wilds. The scry on her is just fantastic and dropping her turn 3 followed by an obzedat is nasty.
The reason why you don't see junk with read the bones or underworld connections is that it has to run 12 shocklands. And sacrificing more health to draw cards puts you in a very precarious spot against aggro and other midrange decks. Though its not too bad against control decks.
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Fully agree - I wouldn't drop Voices for well, anything really.... very worth it as a MB slot and is such a great card. Also as you stated, adding more 5 drops to an already high curve is just asking to get beaten down by aggro decks.
The Junk list that placed 2nd has 2 UC in the side - which I think is the right place for them. Bring them in against control when your life total won't mean much until later in the game.
My Haves/Wants Thread
Can anyone give me some help with this list?
I am not a pro-player by any means, but I think your creature choices and some of your spells are off. The biggest thing I see is a lack of life gain, which is similar to what you are seeing.
First on creatures, you need some acceleration. In all of the top lists using B/G/x or W/G/x they have Elvish Mystics or Sylvan Caryatids. In a midrange deck your whole goal is to drop a fatty ASAP. That means you get a Loxodon smiter on T2, which is a big deal against all the aggro and red decks out there. Looking at your list of creatures you have an almagimation of midrange and aggroish creatures. I think Experiment One and Fleecemane Lion, while great cards, are out of place here. The reason I say that is while experiment one does get bigger it takes time, and your deck doesn't manipulate tokens and is not aggro based and until you get 5mana available Fleecemane lion is ok, but ultimately it takes 2 turns or 7 mana to make the lion good. I would take them out and put in some dorks. I prefer Sylvan Caryatid because I run some double W and double B early.
I would also consider a few other solid beaters as replacements. The recent second place SCG Cleveland Junk deck used Sin Collectors which are awesome against control. I personally use Desecration Demon and Reaper of the Wilds because they are such efficient, hardy creatures that if you can drop them turn 3, they just change the game quickly to your favor. I use Fiendslayer Paladin in my deck as a 3x currently. If there is a lot of aggro/RDW/burn in your meta, he is just a beast. His lifelink, can completely stop an aggro deck and give you time to breath and beyond that he is hard to remove. In multiples he becomes quite scary too. If I am facing control, I normally SB him out for Sin Collectors.
On the topic of BBoV, there is a great debate whether BBoV or Obzedat is better. My stance is that Obzedat is better most of the time, but in the mirror match BBoV is a giant pain. If you run the Whip of Erebos (which I think you should, it gives massive amounts of life gain) then you should definitely use Obzedat as the infinite resurrection combo just wins games. When you are talking 9 points of life gain and 4 points of damage a turn your opponents needs some serious heavy hitters to overcome that. The whip will also let you stabilize into mid to late game better.
Your spells look ok, but rootborn defense is out of place here I think. I am not sure it helps you a lot. Sure it makes more beast and wurm tokens, but I think it takes up a valuable spot for Hero's Downfall which you should run 2-3x. Planeswalkers can be very nasty and with Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Chandra, Pyromaster, both Jace's, Domri and Xenagos running around, you want to be able to get rid of them quick before they start taking over the game.
Just my 2cents
With your lands, thoughtseize isn't going to do you much good except against control. And having it as a one of isn't worth it. Same with Read the Bones.
As Complex pants said, you want some ramp. Elvish Mystic and Sylvan Caryatid are very powerful and can power out things like turn 3 obzedat, ghost council or Blood Baron of Vizkopa. If you want to keep Polukranos, mana ramp is really good for his monstrous ability.
I would drop putrefy in favor of Hero's Downfall. Most enchantments you will run into will be 3 cmc or less, ie Detention Sphere and Chained to the Rocks. If you are worried, you can keep putrefy in your side board. Better yet, you can put golgari charm in your side board. It will also double as a sweeper defense instead of rootborn defense, albeit you won't be able to populate. But you have more choices and cheaper cost.
edit: just remembered that putrefy is destroy artifact/creature, not enchantment. But I still think putrefy is better off in the side board and golgari charm is still a good side board card.
Standard:GWBMidrangeGWB
Modern: BWTokensBW
Legacy: Manaless Dredge
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Desecration Demon
4x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Obzedat, Ghost Council
3x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Putrefy
2x Read the Bones
2x Whip of Erebos
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Godless Shrine
4x Temple Garden
2x Temple of Silence
4x Swamp
3x Forest
2x Plains
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Pithing Needle
1x Doomblade
2x Golgari Charm
2x Mistcutter Hydra
2x Devour Flesh
2x Gaze of Granite
1x Underworld Connections
Putrefy as a 2x might be a bit much, but it depends on your aggro. Most of the artifacts I care about are 3cmc or less, which is covered by Abrupt Decay. However, Whip of Erebos is certainly a concern and having removal around for it is a good thing. I would make putrefy a 1x, but that is a personal choice.
it is a good list. I would consider [b]Boon Satyr[/c] or Advent of the Wurm as possible SB cards to handle other BBoV. Mistcutter Hydra is good, but the instant/flash aspect of the other two can save your behind.
For some reason I always seem to play boros or some mono-red deck on cockatrice. Anyway, tonight I faced a boros token/young pyromancer deck.
Game 1: Had to mulligan down to 5 after 2 hands with one land. Kept a hand with obzedat and 4 lands. Opponent is on play and drops a t2 and t3 YP, I have a t3 Fiendslayer paladin. He board clears with anger of the gods, and gets mana screwed for 2 turns. By this time I get and Obzedat out and draw a whip next turn.
Game 2: I just SB in a third Gaze of granite. I get a decent hand and drop a t2 caryatid, he has a turn 3 reckoner and I get a t3 Paladin. He swings and I take 3 damage. My turn I abrupt decay the reckoner (should have waited since it was tapped) and start swinging with my paladin, celestial flares it. I top deck another Paladin and start causing 4 point life swings. He drops a Elspeth, which isn't a big deal since I had 2x Gaze and 1x Hero's Downfall in my opening hand. I downfall Elspeth after he makes the tokens, another misplay (didn't realize that the downfall resolves before token generation). On my turn I gaze for 0 to clear the tokens. He angers next turn and I top deck a read the bones and get a desecration demon and thoughtseize. I clear his hand of removal and drop the demon. Game over after he didn't top deck an answer.
At this point my deck has not lost a match to any red deck, so I am feeling very comfortable in that matchup. Still need to test against control.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sin Collector
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Shadowborn Demon
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Silence
4 Advent of the Wurm
1 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Putrefy
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Shadowborn Demon
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Sin Collector
2 Underworld Connections
3 Unflinching Courage
1 Doom Blade
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
The removal suite is kind of all over the place for testing sake. Seeing what is best for the moving meta. I am becoming more sold on Doom Blade, I like the one of, I also what to test Putrefy more to catch all the gods weapons.
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Boon Satyr
3 Doom Blade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Temple Garden
4 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Silence
5 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
It focuses a bit more on the Archangel of Thune, which is insane with Obzedat and the Wip
How is VoR working for you? I have mixed feelings about it. With all the mana dorks in there, wouldn't you do better with a 4 drop like Desecration Demon or Reaper of the Wilds? I don't have any VoR and I haven't tested them, but DD and Reaper have just been stellar in my testing.
I use one putrefy in my deck for exactly the reason you said above. But I feel like only 1 is necessary since most of the artifacts I worry about are 3cmc (Hammer, Bow, Spear, etc). I have yet to see the bident, the whip is what I really worry about. This another personal thing, but 3x Downfall I think is appropriate. There are plenty of killer Walkers running around now, and I feel like this deck needs fast answers for them. I am never upset when I have a Downfall in my hand.
This is more of a general question, but why does no one play Gaze in their lists? It has really come through for me in many games. I guess it doesn't work well if you are playing VoR and MB wurm, but against other token decks and aggro decks it is a house.
Voice had been very good for me, because the times you dont get a mana dork draw he is a very good early drop. He also allows you to use you mana to all its potential. You can go turn 1 dork, turn 2 temple of silence, voice, with no real problems. It doesnt set you behind at all playing a Temple on the two if you can follow it up with a real threat like voice. I dont really want more four drops otherwise I could get really screwed out of some games. Especially DD, he just seems super terrible right now.
3 Downfall could be too many, not really sure yet. We are still so new to the format not sure what the right numbers are for the removal suite are yet.
As for Gaze, I personally think its too slow. Plus yeah I dont want to be killing all my Voices, Wurm Tokens, ect.
As others have mentioned, Boon Satyr seems good to flash in on Blood Baron of Vizkopa. I am hesitant to take more than 1 or 2 of him out as so far he has proved to be boss. Eight is a lot of dorks but it makes turn 2 Loxodon Smiter and Turn 3 Desecration Demon and Blood Baron of Vizkopa possible pretty frequently. Putrefy looks like it wants to be a one of and maybe be replaced by something else that takes advantage of all my ramp. Primeval Bounty is also pretty sweet if I can make it work.
4 Swamp
2 plains
4 forest
4 temple of silence
4 overgrown tomb
4 temple garden
4 godless shrine
Creatures
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Slyvan Caryatid
4 Desecration Demon
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Spells
2 Hero's downfall
2 Doom Blade
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Advent of the Wurm
4 Precinct Captain
4 Golgari Charm
2 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 putrefy
This is what I have been play testing with my friend who is about to go to PT Theros. The surprise favorite for me is Sylvan Caryatid. Not only does it help with mana acceleration and mana fixing which 3 color desperately needs, it is a wonderful defender. It easily blocks most RDW creatures, can't be removed except by an anger of the gods or overloaded Mizzium Mortars, and can't be targeted by Firefist Striker. I've even been able to power out turn 3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion with 2 Elvish Mystics and a Sylvan Caryatid. Though that is extremely rare, only about a 5% chance of it happening with my current deck.
Thinking of droppping 1 or 2 Blood Barons for another Elspeth and another Obzedat, Ghost Council or another Advent of the Wurm.
My biggest problem has been dealing with Ætherling. The only way I can seem to beat him is to win the game before my opponent can put me onto a clock with him. Which can be extended if i get a Blood Baron or a Whip of Erebos out. How are you guys dealing with him?
Standard:GWBMidrangeGWB
Modern: BWTokensBW
Legacy: Manaless Dredge