This is my first post in this forums and I'm not a native English speaker, so please excuse any orthographic or grammatical mistakes.
Now on topic:
I've been playing my junk list since the beginning of May. I'm currently 11-1-1 in tournaments with this list, getting second in a 110 player event (losing game 3 to pack rat) and 4-0 in a 16 player event.
Mu (Match ups) I played so far:
Mono-Black: 4-1
Mono-U: 1-0
R/W Burn: 1-0
Naya Hexproof: 1-0
Naya Beatdown: 1-0
Mirror: 1-0
Esper: 1-0
U/B control: 1-0
One ID
While not representative in size, I played for each Mu won about 4 more matches outside of tournaments to learn how to play them (and in my opinion the results are no flux)
General comment: I see Junk as a control deck with midrange elements, which makes it flexible to play both roles. At best you get a 2 for 1 out of each card you cast and have very few dead draws due to courser and scry lands.
Some comments on the card choices:
Split 3-1 Decay-Charm in the Mainboard: Charm and Decay do the same in the most part of the game (i.e. answer underworld connections, Courser of Krufix, d-sphere, banishing light, lifebane zombie, hexproof enchantments, kill 1st pack rat). The reason I didn't want to have the 4th Decay was, that against mono-U and mono-B you always want to draw 1, maybe 2, never 3 while the first charm is good in typically any Mu (mono-U: kill early guys, kill pumped Weird, kill Master of waves + Tokens, domestication; Esper: counter verdict, nuke Elspeth tokens eot and swing for kill, regenerate fatties form Elspeth ultimate; mono-B: counter spot removal, kill whip of Erebos) and gives you another out to 4ccm+ enchancements (eidolon, assemble the legions).
No banishing light: In a format full of enchantments, each deck (besides straight mono-B) has ways to remove your enchantment. If they do, you usually get 2 for 1ed (i.e. get a planeswalker back with additional loyalty, get a huge blocker after you attacked, get a permanent with etb-ability back, get connections back and attach it to a untapped land). In a deck like junk, which is mostly playing for winning through cutting your opponents resources (life, cards in hand/play). One such blowout can be backbreaking (this is by the way how I've beaten Esper and Junk in one game pretty easily) because of the tempo loss besides the 2 for 1.
No scavenging ooze: In my testing the oozes have been to low impact, since early they are not a must answer/counter threat and do not give you an immediate advantage. Against decks where you need the life gain, they're usually getting removed and against decks where you need a threat they are often a blank in the late game or to mana intensive.
No thought-seize: It does not get you ahead on resources, it does not help you close the game, your opponent is usually not willing to answer it and it's a blank in the late game.
2-2 Sin collector-Lifebane Zombie: The split is a hedge. I want the effect of thought-seize but not the downsides of thought seize. Both creatures fit the bill pretty well.
Sin collector usually removes a counter, revelations or a pump/removal/burn spell. It pressures planeswalker or players, against control and chumps or trades against aggro. Additionally it can block lifebane and can't be removed by Doomblade or Ultimate Price. Resolved it's in 90% of games a sure 2 for 1 with upsides.
Lifebane Zombie: Good against aggro, pressures planeswalker, blocks lifebane and removes Obzedat, blood baron, arch-angel and various other creatures for good. It's also nice to race opponents who resolved an underworld connections.
4 Courser, Sylvan Caryatid: Backbone of the Junk midrange. Help you prevent screw and flood, are good against aggro and control.
2 Underworld connections: Against control and midrange, this let you win the resource war if resolved early. Against aggro and burn you want to usually scry them to the bottom. 2 is the number where you see it regularly if the game goes long, but where you can avoid drawing one against aggro or burn in the early game.
4 Heroes downfall: Flexible catch-all removal at instant speed. Good at gaining tempo advantage or removing threats and value engines. Gets boarded out against everything without valuable targets (like naya hexproof or Burn).
4 Advent of the wurm: It's a good creature to race connections or aggro or pressure planeswalker or control which sometimes has a removal attached to it. With 5/5 it has the right size to go through everything but Desecration Demon. The 4h copy of the card may be cuttable but I haven't found a worthy replacement yet. The 4th copy often gets boarded out game 2 and 3.
2 Arch-Angel, 2 Obzedat, 1 Blood Baron: I found, that you don’t want to play more 5drop creatures because of the tempo loss the could generate with one removal from your opponent. If not legendary, I'd play a 3rd Obzedat instead of blood baron.
Arch-Angel is best with courser, defeats aggro on its own and lives through Elspeth minus ability (if you activate her before the first attack). Sin-collector and lifebane in addition to nyx-fleece ram out of the sideboard give her additional value.
Obzedat: MVP against everything but aggro. It clocks the opponent pretty fast and gains you a lot of life. With the blink ability, it's hard to remove for many decks. Over the first 3 or your turns it lives, it has the better life + damage output than blood-baron (6 + 10 damage + 6 Life vs 8 damage + 8 life). Also nice as combo with wipe out of the Sideboard.
Blood-Baron: Nice against mono-B, but basically a worst Obzedat (which is still fine). Life Obzedat, Baron let you close out games or get you back in them, but at a little slower rate.
2 Elspeth: Best planeswalker in the format, not close. Games usually end with me resolving Elspeth or Obzedat and closing the game out in the next 4 turns (or see the opponent concede before). I would add 3d but the mana costs are too restrictive any you can't have another 6ccm spell in your deck. 1 Boarded out against Burn.
1 Ajany, Mentor of Heros: Good synergy with the rest of the deck and usually protects itself (3/5 caryatid or 5/7 courser anyone)if you are behind or threats or resource advantage engines if you are ahead of even. Due to the high loyalty it's always a 2 for 1 or better, when played right (I count gaining 5 life as a card).
1 Vraska: Another catch-all removal with upsides. Against control and midrange she is a must remove, against aggro she's a removal + lifegain (or double removal spell). Play her only if you want to minus her (or bait a d-sphere or banishing light) and you have a 2 for 1 with upsides. Boarded out against Burn.
No other planeswalker: Planeswalker are pretty expensive on the mana side. If you want to have a fair chance against aggro or burn game 1, you can't afford (in my opinion) more 5ccm+ spells. Garruk is a possible addition, but in my Opinion he does what vraska does for the deck with the difference of costing 7 instead of 5.
No mana confluences: the mana base works as it is. Why should I take additional damage?
2 Underworld Connections God against U/x control, Midrange; out against aggro
3 Mistcutter Hydra; Good against burn (you try to race), mono-U, U/x Control; I bring the sometimes in against random aggro since grey ogre, hill giant or charging rhino are sometime fine cards
1 Golgari Charm; Good against U/x control, Naya Hexproof, mirror, some random aggro decks; Out against Burn, Monsters or decks where only one ability is relevant.
1 Lifebane Zombie; Good against Jund, Naya, Naya Hexproof, Monsters, mono-U, burn, the mirror; Out against mono-B
1 Sin Collector; Good against Burn, non-hexproof Naya, Esper, mono-B, the mirror; Out against mono-U, Hexproof
1 Bile Blight; Good against mono-U, G/x-Devotion, mono-B on the draw, Naya non-hexproof, random aggro
1 Abrupt Decay; Good against U/x countrol with D-sphere, Naya, mono-B, random aggro, some out against Monsters or high ccm decks
1 Silence the Believers; Good against mono-U, mono-B, the mirror, Monsters, Jund, random non-planeswalker midrange
1 Putrefy; Good against mono-B, Monsters, the mirror, random midrange.
1 Whip of Erebos; Good against Burn, mono-B, mono-U, U/x control (returning sin collectors and obzedats are pretty good)
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram; Good against aggro; Block aggressive but try to play around +2/+2 tricks with your blocks.
In my opinion Junk should go a more controlling route than the actual trend goes. Regarding this approach, I think this deck is in a great spot at the moment, since it can grind out any deck through its value engines. Through Advent and the creature package this list has also a very good midrange plan to finish games quickly once you're ahead of your opponent uses his life resource to much.
If you have any suggestions please let me know since I'm planning to take this deck to the WMCQ.
Don Bilbo: I notice you have no M15 cards in your deck. How about Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in place of one of the Swamps? Also, one Liliana Vess might be nice in the SB. Nice deck!
The one Urborg seems marginal to me. I had as much games where mono-B couln't cast their hero's downfall because of the multiple mutavault draw as well as not being able to do so myself. The thing is, I can't remember more than one game where I did draw a Swamp but couldn't have cast the downfall (just to remember; you play 19 black sources).
Personally I would not add it, because you're helping other decks more than yourself.
Liliana is test worthyin the sideboard, since I'm currently opting to take out the 4th Underworld Connections (usually only brought in against Esper and B/g devotion or Decks who can remove connections and connection is very good).
Liliana might be a small upgrade there but what she improves in Powerlevel of a card, she misses out on ccm. Being able to cast turn 3 connections with your opponent not able to counter is pretty huge.
What do you think if someone were to replace the Caryatid with Fleecemane Lion?
I just don't feel like the deck really needs the "Ramp" from Caryatid, the deck is a midrange deck, and I feel it's well designed on a curve and I don't think you really need to ramp into anything specifically.
I feel like Fleecemane Lion would give you a better overall game?
I actually run 4 Fleecemane - against control he is a beast - if they dont manage verdict turn 4, he aint goin ANYwhere. Also great against mono green to block away until they land Nylea.
I do run a suite of Carytids along with whip of erebos in the main, and also a singleton Ajani, Caller of the Pride for the insta-win flying double strike obzedat.
It was disgusting. he ran them as a deuce, but with a courser on the field, thats 4 life a turn (ish), advent = 3 +1/+1 counters on another creature, PLUS your 5/5 trample. Any creature you cast gets a bonus Beast. And they are ALL gaining you life via Trostani.
I feel that a singleton is good in the main, but will be testing more when im back from work. after turn 6 (or 5 if we're lucky) the game becomes just so hard for opponents.
Regarding Fleecemane: I've never played with it. What I can say from playing against it: He is (in aggro decks) just not a fast and big enough threat. 3/3 vanilla is not enough any more.
Against other B/x deck you can't monstrous him, because it dies to every removal at ccm 2 except ultimate price your opponent is playing. If the opponent has it, you actually getting timewalked.
Further it can be outraced by burn, blocked by courser (in a first step) soldier of the pantheon, a 1/1 elementl and nyx fleece ram.
So I'm advocating against it, as long as RTR is in the format. After rotation it might be in a decent spot but I dont know if junk still is. If you want something that's good against control (U/W/x) and decent agains burn, play sin collector. He does it all.
Caratid on the other hand let us play out our value engines and get imediate value from them (i.a turn 3 courser with open landdrop, connections on untaped land, sin collector/ lifebane with scryland still in hand)and with 1 caratyd out you rarely getting mana screwed and all your scrylands get much better. In my opinion, junk should out-value your opponent. Without good mana you can't do that regularly.
On Primeval Bounty: Do you think bounty is better than elspeth? If not, I'd only play one as a third elspeth. I tested Bounty in the beginning of the deck but found it often to slow. Against aggro you usually win, if you can resolve a 6 mana spell without being dead next attack (see Elspeth) and against control, it's a 6 drop which does not presure the opponent (again 3/3 is just not that impressive anymore).
Where Bounty shines is the midrange mirror, where cards get traded 1-1.
But than again: what does it, that Elspeth or Ajani doesnt do better? Why not play underworld connections, which is also really good against control?
I moved away from primeval bounty for this excact reasoning. Yes, it is a powerfull card but there are better fits.
Another question: Has anybody of you tested reclamation sage? Are there good targets, which Decay + Charm + Downfall can't handle?
First competitive post. If it seems to people that I shouldn't be posting here, please let me know.
A big part of my reason for posting is to express my gratitude. I started with the Reid Duke list on Channelfireball, but this topic has been very helpful for exploring evolutions. Thank you!
Played my list at a small (8 people) pre-gameday standard tournament and 2 Game Days (14 and 8 people respectively) with minor modifications after the pre-gameday tournament.
Pre-Game Day FNM
M1 - Rabblemaster Red missing lots of cards including Mutavault, Rubblebelt Maaka and Legion Loyalist. Removed Rabblemasters, land Elspeth, move on in 2. This was a friend, so I lent him all the useful cards I had for the next day.
M2 - UW Heroic. Didn't draw enough removal and he had God's Willing and Ajani's Presence too often when I did. Loss in 3. Sideboard: +1 Celestial Flare, +1 Gaze of Granite, +1 Banishing Light, -3 Underworld Connections.
M3 - Green Devotion w/Genesis Hydra. Didn't draw enough removal.
Matches 1-2, Games 4-4
Game Day 1
M1 - 5C Slivers: Killed Manaweft, Predatory slivers on sight; was lucky to have Banishing Light for Sliver Hivelord when tutored up w/Chord of Calling. Brought in Drown in Sorrow, Banishing Light, Gaze of Granite; removed Ooze and Archangels. Won in 2.
M2 - UW Heroic (same as above): Won in 3. Brought in Celestial Flare, Banishing Light, Blood Barons (all his creatures were W), Gaze, Sin Collector. Took out Underworlds, 2 Polukranos, 1 Elspeth.
M3 - G Devotion (same as above): Lost in 3. Didn't draw enough removal, severe mana screw in G3. I thought I just needed to remove the big threats, but Genesis Hydra has changed the game. I decided I needed to keep the devotion down. Tried to get 2 for 1s w/Golgari Charm, Bile Blight, Drown. Voyaging Satyr is amazing and Genesis Hydra for 22 is a problem.
M4 - Rabblemaster Red (same as above): Lost in 3. Didn't draw enough removal, My own Legion Disloyalists and Mutavaults did work against me.
Matches 2-2, Games 6-5
Game Day 2:
M1 - Boros Aggro (Playmat winner in all sets of Theros): G1T1 he makes Soldier of the Pantheon, I Thoughtseize and see another Soldier and Legion Loyalist. Take Loyalist, get 2/1 w/Bile Blight on Soldiers, Elspeth eventually hastens us to to G2. Lucky Charm (Golgari) off the top early leads to 3-for-1. Opponent didn't draw any more creatures until too late. Win in 2.
M2 - UW Cleansing control: G1 get Connections down early, draw cards, play anything but Elspeth or more Connections. His only way to get rid of Connections is Planar Cleansing. After Planar Cleansing, slam Elspeth, Planar Cleansing 2, Elspeth 2, cruise to victory on her back (I feel like Heliod) with a small army of soldiers. G2 I get the Connections down again, draw a few cards, Planar Cleansing, Elspeth. He makes Jace, AoT and ticks him up and Revs for 6 (discarding 4 land), but Elspeth will ultimate first, so he finally draws cards off Jace. I draw Thoughtseize, play it, see 2 Last Breaths, Celestial Flare, Azorius Charm (which I take) and land. I send enough soldiers at Jace to kill him + the rest at him. He activates his two Mutavaults, which I promptly Bile Blight. I figure if I ultimate Elspeth and he either draws Verdict or Cleansing, then I have just the Emblem. By waiting, Planar Cleansing is the only thing that's a problem. He doesn't draw either and I emblem and win next turn. Win in two, largely due to his drawing mostly land G2 and my drawing Elspeth
M3 - G Devotion (3rd time!): He mulls to 5 twice and I draw enough removal to keep his devotion low and monsters in check. Win in two.
Matches 3-0, Games 6-0
Playmat!
Conclusions: The deck was good enough to win if I drew better than the opponent. The cleansing control deck beat a very good B devotion list in the hands of a very good pilot. I didn't think I had the best deck in the room, but I had a chance to beat anybody. And I got one of the playmats!
Until the whole set is spoiled, I don't believe you can mention those cards in this forum yet. Just a heads up. You can talk about them in the rumor mill forum or in the standard new cards discussion forum.
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Well, I liked this deck and I'm not committed to playing 4 Siege Rhinos. What do people think of this translation?
I'd love to play the Wingmate Roc, but I don't think this deck will be attacking consistently.
I can see subbing Erebos for Underworld Connections. Abzan charm gives us more draw.
There are lots of creatures that can win the game, but I am having trouble reproducing the lifegain.
We will need to be able to answer Prognostic Sphinx, I imagine.
The sideboard is pretty random at this point.
Siege Rhino is one of the best midrange creatures in years!
I feel like your deck lacks a bit of focus; perhaps cutting the duneblast, garruk, indulgent tormenter, ob nixilis, doom engine, and erebos would allow you to streamline a bit.
This is my first post in this forums and I'm not a native English speaker, so please excuse any orthographic or grammatical mistakes.
Now on topic:
I've been playing my junk list since the beginning of May. I'm currently 11-1-1 in tournaments with this list, getting second in a 110 player event (losing game 3 to pack rat) and 4-0 in a 16 player event.
Mu (Match ups) I played so far:
Mono-Black: 4-1
Mono-U: 1-0
R/W Burn: 1-0
Naya Hexproof: 1-0
Naya Beatdown: 1-0
Mirror: 1-0
Esper: 1-0
U/B control: 1-0
One ID
While not representative in size, I played for each Mu won about 4 more matches outside of tournaments to learn how to play them (and in my opinion the results are no flux)
Here's my list:
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple Garden
2 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple of Malady
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Sin Collector
2 Lifebane Zombie
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Underworld Connections
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Advent of the Wurm
1 Golgari Charm
2 Underworld Connections
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Golgari Charm
1 Lifebane Zombie
1 Sin Collector
1 Bile Blight
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Silence the Believers
1 Putrefy
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
General comment: I see Junk as a control deck with midrange elements, which makes it flexible to play both roles. At best you get a 2 for 1 out of each card you cast and have very few dead draws due to courser and scry lands.
Some comments on the card choices:
Split 3-1 Decay-Charm in the Mainboard: Charm and Decay do the same in the most part of the game (i.e. answer underworld connections, Courser of Krufix, d-sphere, banishing light, lifebane zombie, hexproof enchantments, kill 1st pack rat). The reason I didn't want to have the 4th Decay was, that against mono-U and mono-B you always want to draw 1, maybe 2, never 3 while the first charm is good in typically any Mu (mono-U: kill early guys, kill pumped Weird, kill Master of waves + Tokens, domestication; Esper: counter verdict, nuke Elspeth tokens eot and swing for kill, regenerate fatties form Elspeth ultimate; mono-B: counter spot removal, kill whip of Erebos) and gives you another out to 4ccm+ enchancements (eidolon, assemble the legions).
No banishing light: In a format full of enchantments, each deck (besides straight mono-B) has ways to remove your enchantment. If they do, you usually get 2 for 1ed (i.e. get a planeswalker back with additional loyalty, get a huge blocker after you attacked, get a permanent with etb-ability back, get connections back and attach it to a untapped land). In a deck like junk, which is mostly playing for winning through cutting your opponents resources (life, cards in hand/play). One such blowout can be backbreaking (this is by the way how I've beaten Esper and Junk in one game pretty easily) because of the tempo loss besides the 2 for 1.
No scavenging ooze: In my testing the oozes have been to low impact, since early they are not a must answer/counter threat and do not give you an immediate advantage. Against decks where you need the life gain, they're usually getting removed and against decks where you need a threat they are often a blank in the late game or to mana intensive.
No thought-seize: It does not get you ahead on resources, it does not help you close the game, your opponent is usually not willing to answer it and it's a blank in the late game.
2-2 Sin collector-Lifebane Zombie: The split is a hedge. I want the effect of thought-seize but not the downsides of thought seize. Both creatures fit the bill pretty well.
Sin collector usually removes a counter, revelations or a pump/removal/burn spell. It pressures planeswalker or players, against control and chumps or trades against aggro. Additionally it can block lifebane and can't be removed by Doomblade or Ultimate Price. Resolved it's in 90% of games a sure 2 for 1 with upsides.
Lifebane Zombie: Good against aggro, pressures planeswalker, blocks lifebane and removes Obzedat, blood baron, arch-angel and various other creatures for good. It's also nice to race opponents who resolved an underworld connections.
4 Courser, Sylvan Caryatid: Backbone of the Junk midrange. Help you prevent screw and flood, are good against aggro and control.
2 Underworld connections: Against control and midrange, this let you win the resource war if resolved early. Against aggro and burn you want to usually scry them to the bottom. 2 is the number where you see it regularly if the game goes long, but where you can avoid drawing one against aggro or burn in the early game.
4 Heroes downfall: Flexible catch-all removal at instant speed. Good at gaining tempo advantage or removing threats and value engines. Gets boarded out against everything without valuable targets (like naya hexproof or Burn).
4 Advent of the wurm: It's a good creature to race connections or aggro or pressure planeswalker or control which sometimes has a removal attached to it. With 5/5 it has the right size to go through everything but Desecration Demon. The 4h copy of the card may be cuttable but I haven't found a worthy replacement yet. The 4th copy often gets boarded out game 2 and 3.
2 Arch-Angel, 2 Obzedat, 1 Blood Baron: I found, that you don’t want to play more 5drop creatures because of the tempo loss the could generate with one removal from your opponent. If not legendary, I'd play a 3rd Obzedat instead of blood baron.
Arch-Angel is best with courser, defeats aggro on its own and lives through Elspeth minus ability (if you activate her before the first attack). Sin-collector and lifebane in addition to nyx-fleece ram out of the sideboard give her additional value.
Obzedat: MVP against everything but aggro. It clocks the opponent pretty fast and gains you a lot of life. With the blink ability, it's hard to remove for many decks. Over the first 3 or your turns it lives, it has the better life + damage output than blood-baron (6 + 10 damage + 6 Life vs 8 damage + 8 life). Also nice as combo with wipe out of the Sideboard.
Blood-Baron: Nice against mono-B, but basically a worst Obzedat (which is still fine). Life Obzedat, Baron let you close out games or get you back in them, but at a little slower rate.
2 Elspeth: Best planeswalker in the format, not close. Games usually end with me resolving Elspeth or Obzedat and closing the game out in the next 4 turns (or see the opponent concede before). I would add 3d but the mana costs are too restrictive any you can't have another 6ccm spell in your deck. 1 Boarded out against Burn.
1 Ajany, Mentor of Heros: Good synergy with the rest of the deck and usually protects itself (3/5 caryatid or 5/7 courser anyone)if you are behind or threats or resource advantage engines if you are ahead of even. Due to the high loyalty it's always a 2 for 1 or better, when played right (I count gaining 5 life as a card).
1 Vraska: Another catch-all removal with upsides. Against control and midrange she is a must remove, against aggro she's a removal + lifegain (or double removal spell). Play her only if you want to minus her (or bait a d-sphere or banishing light) and you have a 2 for 1 with upsides. Boarded out against Burn.
No other planeswalker: Planeswalker are pretty expensive on the mana side. If you want to have a fair chance against aggro or burn game 1, you can't afford (in my opinion) more 5ccm+ spells. Garruk is a possible addition, but in my Opinion he does what vraska does for the deck with the difference of costing 7 instead of 5.
No mana confluences: the mana base works as it is. Why should I take additional damage?
2 Underworld Connections God against U/x control, Midrange; out against aggro
3 Mistcutter Hydra; Good against burn (you try to race), mono-U, U/x Control; I bring the sometimes in against random aggro since grey ogre, hill giant or charging rhino are sometime fine cards
1 Golgari Charm; Good against U/x control, Naya Hexproof, mirror, some random aggro decks; Out against Burn, Monsters or decks where only one ability is relevant.
1 Lifebane Zombie; Good against Jund, Naya, Naya Hexproof, Monsters, mono-U, burn, the mirror; Out against mono-B
1 Sin Collector; Good against Burn, non-hexproof Naya, Esper, mono-B, the mirror; Out against mono-U, Hexproof
1 Bile Blight; Good against mono-U, G/x-Devotion, mono-B on the draw, Naya non-hexproof, random aggro
1 Abrupt Decay; Good against U/x countrol with D-sphere, Naya, mono-B, random aggro, some out against Monsters or high ccm decks
1 Silence the Believers; Good against mono-U, mono-B, the mirror, Monsters, Jund, random non-planeswalker midrange
1 Putrefy; Good against mono-B, Monsters, the mirror, random midrange.
1 Whip of Erebos; Good against Burn, mono-B, mono-U, U/x control (returning sin collectors and obzedats are pretty good)
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram; Good against aggro; Block aggressive but try to play around +2/+2 tricks with your blocks.
In my opinion Junk should go a more controlling route than the actual trend goes. Regarding this approach, I think this deck is in a great spot at the moment, since it can grind out any deck through its value engines. Through Advent and the creature package this list has also a very good midrange plan to finish games quickly once you're ahead of your opponent uses his life resource to much.
If you have any suggestions please let me know since I'm planning to take this deck to the WMCQ.
Regards
Don
Personally I would not add it, because you're helping other decks more than yourself.
Liliana is test worthyin the sideboard, since I'm currently opting to take out the 4th Underworld Connections (usually only brought in against Esper and B/g devotion or Decks who can remove connections and connection is very good).
Liliana might be a small upgrade there but what she improves in Powerlevel of a card, she misses out on ccm. Being able to cast turn 3 connections with your opponent not able to counter is pretty huge.
What do you think if someone were to replace the Caryatid with Fleecemane Lion?
I just don't feel like the deck really needs the "Ramp" from Caryatid, the deck is a midrange deck, and I feel it's well designed on a curve and I don't think you really need to ramp into anything specifically.
I feel like Fleecemane Lion would give you a better overall game?
Fleecemane + Ajani is also very very good!
Thoughts?
I do run a suite of Carytids along with whip of erebos in the main, and also a singleton Ajani, Caller of the Pride for the insta-win flying double strike obzedat.
One other card that i played against in a full on GW midrange (Voice of resurgence,Trostani, selesnya's voice Advent of wurm, elspeth etc) was Primeval Bounty
It was disgusting. he ran them as a deuce, but with a courser on the field, thats 4 life a turn (ish), advent = 3 +1/+1 counters on another creature, PLUS your 5/5 trample. Any creature you cast gets a bonus Beast. And they are ALL gaining you life via Trostani.
I feel that a singleton is good in the main, but will be testing more when im back from work. after turn 6 (or 5 if we're lucky) the game becomes just so hard for opponents.
Hope you have a try before rotation!
Against other B/x deck you can't monstrous him, because it dies to every removal at ccm 2 except ultimate price your opponent is playing. If the opponent has it, you actually getting timewalked.
Further it can be outraced by burn, blocked by courser (in a first step) soldier of the pantheon, a 1/1 elementl and nyx fleece ram.
So I'm advocating against it, as long as RTR is in the format. After rotation it might be in a decent spot but I dont know if junk still is. If you want something that's good against control (U/W/x) and decent agains burn, play sin collector. He does it all.
Caratid on the other hand let us play out our value engines and get imediate value from them (i.a turn 3 courser with open landdrop, connections on untaped land, sin collector/ lifebane with scryland still in hand)and with 1 caratyd out you rarely getting mana screwed and all your scrylands get much better. In my opinion, junk should out-value your opponent. Without good mana you can't do that regularly.
On Primeval Bounty: Do you think bounty is better than elspeth? If not, I'd only play one as a third elspeth. I tested Bounty in the beginning of the deck but found it often to slow. Against aggro you usually win, if you can resolve a 6 mana spell without being dead next attack (see Elspeth) and against control, it's a 6 drop which does not presure the opponent (again 3/3 is just not that impressive anymore).
Where Bounty shines is the midrange mirror, where cards get traded 1-1.
But than again: what does it, that Elspeth or Ajani doesnt do better? Why not play underworld connections, which is also really good against control?
I moved away from primeval bounty for this excact reasoning. Yes, it is a powerfull card but there are better fits.
Another question: Has anybody of you tested reclamation sage? Are there good targets, which Decay + Charm + Downfall can't handle?
2x Forest
3x Godless Shrine
2x Llanowar Wastes
4x Overgrown Tomb
1x Swamp
4x Temple Garden
4x Temple of Malady
2x Temple of Plenty
1x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Banishing Light
2x Underworld Connections
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Advent of the Wurm
1x Devour Flesh
1x Golgari Charm
4x Hero's Downfall
3x Thoughtseize
4x Courser of Kruphix
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
1x Vraska the Unseen
1x Devour Flesh
1x Doom Blade
1x Liliana Vess
2x Mistcutter Hydra
2x Nyx-Fleece Ram
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Silence the Believers
2x Sin Collector
1x Thoughtseize
1x Ultimate Price
A big part of my reason for posting is to express my gratitude. I started with the Reid Duke list on Channelfireball, but this topic has been very helpful for exploring evolutions. Thank you!
Played my list at a small (8 people) pre-gameday standard tournament and 2 Game Days (14 and 8 people respectively) with minor modifications after the pre-gameday tournament.
4 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
4 Temple Garden
2 Temple of Plenty
3 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Malady
Creatures
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Bile Blight
1 Banishing Light
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Underworld Connections
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Celestial Flare
2 Blood Baron
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Sin Collector
1 Silence the Believers
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Banishing Light
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Deicide
Pre-Game Day FNM
M1 - Rabblemaster Red missing lots of cards including Mutavault, Rubblebelt Maaka and Legion Loyalist. Removed Rabblemasters, land Elspeth, move on in 2. This was a friend, so I lent him all the useful cards I had for the next day.
M2 - UW Heroic. Didn't draw enough removal and he had God's Willing and Ajani's Presence too often when I did. Loss in 3. Sideboard: +1 Celestial Flare, +1 Gaze of Granite, +1 Banishing Light, -3 Underworld Connections.
M3 - Green Devotion w/Genesis Hydra. Didn't draw enough removal.
Matches 1-2, Games 4-4
Game Day 1
M1 - 5C Slivers: Killed Manaweft, Predatory slivers on sight; was lucky to have Banishing Light for Sliver Hivelord when tutored up w/Chord of Calling. Brought in Drown in Sorrow, Banishing Light, Gaze of Granite; removed Ooze and Archangels. Won in 2.
M2 - UW Heroic (same as above): Won in 3. Brought in Celestial Flare, Banishing Light, Blood Barons (all his creatures were W), Gaze, Sin Collector. Took out Underworlds, 2 Polukranos, 1 Elspeth.
M3 - G Devotion (same as above): Lost in 3. Didn't draw enough removal, severe mana screw in G3. I thought I just needed to remove the big threats, but Genesis Hydra has changed the game. I decided I needed to keep the devotion down. Tried to get 2 for 1s w/Golgari Charm, Bile Blight, Drown. Voyaging Satyr is amazing and Genesis Hydra for 22 is a problem.
M4 - Rabblemaster Red (same as above): Lost in 3. Didn't draw enough removal, My own Legion Disloyalists and Mutavaults did work against me.
Matches 2-2, Games 6-5
Game Day 2:
M1 - Boros Aggro (Playmat winner in all sets of Theros): G1T1 he makes Soldier of the Pantheon, I Thoughtseize and see another Soldier and Legion Loyalist. Take Loyalist, get 2/1 w/Bile Blight on Soldiers, Elspeth eventually hastens us to to G2. Lucky Charm (Golgari) off the top early leads to 3-for-1. Opponent didn't draw any more creatures until too late. Win in 2.
M2 - UW Cleansing control: G1 get Connections down early, draw cards, play anything but Elspeth or more Connections. His only way to get rid of Connections is Planar Cleansing. After Planar Cleansing, slam Elspeth, Planar Cleansing 2, Elspeth 2, cruise to victory on her back (I feel like Heliod) with a small army of soldiers. G2 I get the Connections down again, draw a few cards, Planar Cleansing, Elspeth. He makes Jace, AoT and ticks him up and Revs for 6 (discarding 4 land), but Elspeth will ultimate first, so he finally draws cards off Jace. I draw Thoughtseize, play it, see 2 Last Breaths, Celestial Flare, Azorius Charm (which I take) and land. I send enough soldiers at Jace to kill him + the rest at him. He activates his two Mutavaults, which I promptly Bile Blight. I figure if I ultimate Elspeth and he either draws Verdict or Cleansing, then I have just the Emblem. By waiting, Planar Cleansing is the only thing that's a problem. He doesn't draw either and I emblem and win next turn. Win in two, largely due to his drawing mostly land G2 and my drawing Elspeth
M3 - G Devotion (3rd time!): He mulls to 5 twice and I draw enough removal to keep his devotion low and monsters in check. Win in two.
Matches 3-0, Games 6-0
Playmat!
Conclusions: The deck was good enough to win if I drew better than the opponent. The cleansing control deck beat a very good B devotion list in the hands of a very good pilot. I didn't think I had the best deck in the room, but I had a chance to beat anybody. And I got one of the playmats!
Thanks, thanks, thanks
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
I'd love to play the Wingmate Roc, but I don't think this deck will be attacking consistently.
I can see subbing Erebos for Underworld Connections. Abzan charm gives us more draw.
There are lots of creatures that can win the game, but I am having trouble reproducing the lifegain.
We will need to be able to answer Prognostic Sphinx, I imagine.
The sideboard is pretty random at this point.
4 Windswept Heath
3 Caves of Koilos
1 Swamp
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Temple of Plenty
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Malady
Creatures
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Indulgent Tormenter
1 Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abzan Charm
1 Duneblast
1 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Utter End
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Despise
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Silence the Believers
1 Duneblast
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Utter End
3 Reclamation Sage
1 Deicide
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I feel like your deck lacks a bit of focus; perhaps cutting the duneblast, garruk, indulgent tormenter, ob nixilis, doom engine, and erebos would allow you to streamline a bit.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU