Seems pretty standard. I am liking it so far, both playing it and playing against it. There was input from the others team up and prep with and this was kind of where your list led us, not many changes at all which was pretty surprising. I expected it to be ripped apart by the others. There was a more Whip oriented list, but we turned it down, it was running Salvages and Whips and we just did not like it too much.
Its interesting you worked your way to Desecration Demon. My very first list had him in it, along with Lifebane Zombies. Here is the list for reference.
I posted the list on one of Todd Andersons articles that he asked to see lists on and he said this about it:
"Deck looks sweet, but the BB, WW, G aspects are all going to stretch your mana pretty thin. I would focus more on GW and maybe just splash black for some removal, as I'm not sure Lifebane or Demon are going to be all that great after rotation. They're obviously fine, but not when black is basically your splash color. Love Putrefy, Advent, and the rest of the creatures, as well as the Charms. "
So then I took it in the direction you see as the sample list.
Have you run into the problems he mentioned? Then again I had Lifebane as well as Demon so it stretched the mana even more. I would like to explore the idea of Demon again for sure. He is just such a massive creature on the 3, even then 4 he is good. Overall I really like your list though.
I think there was roughly a 32% chance of having BB by turn 4? I don't quite remember what it came out to be when we were checking the mana, at a glance it looks to be somewhere around there.
I have not noticed too many issues to be honest,There have been a couple times where I do not drop the demon on turn 4, but it is still often mana that is used regardless. Either by putting out a token, boosting ooze, dropping spare creatures etc.
I would also like to mention that not only is your list demanding BB but also WW and even GG. Excessive double demands like that are a lot more detrimental than the occasional double demand. Instead of a fair portion of your multi color cards spreading the demand to just 2 colors and 1 of each, you have instances where it is not only BB or WW, but GGW. In total, you have double demand on 14 cards as opposed to my 7 which is actually quite substantial.
So I agree with Todd that the mana is easy to spread thin, but I think that is an issue that is easily addressed by just examining what is actually causing it and why, which is often just overlooked at time for no other reason that it slips the brain.
I think there was roughly a 32% chance of having BB by turn 4? I don't quite remember what it came out to be when we were checking the mana, at a glance it looks to be somewhere around there.
I have not noticed too many issues to be honest,There have been a couple times where I do not drop the demon on turn 4, but it is still often mana that is used regardless. Either by putting out a token, boosting ooze, dropping spare creatures etc.
I would also like to mention that not only is your list demanding BB but also WW and even GG. Excessive double demands like that are a lot more detrimental than the occasional double demand. Instead of a fair portion of your multi color cards spreading the demand to just 2 colors and 1 of each, you have instances where it is not only BB or WW, but GGW. In total, you have double demand on 14 cards as opposed to my 7 which is actually quite substantial.
So I agree with Todd that the mana is easy to spread thin, but I think that is an issue that is easily addressed by just examining what is actually causing it and why, which is often just overlooked at time for no other reason that it slips the brain.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
I did notice my initial list had the good ol triple double. Thats awesome you are liking the list. I will change mine up as well to do some testing.
Have you found Desecration Demon better than Advent of the Wurm?
I dont understand how people are not running Reaper either?! The card is just insanely good.
I personally dont think its as good as Advent of the Wurm.
I dont want a card that I have to keep investing mana into. Where as Advent of the Wurm its a 5/5 Trampler for 4 all the time. With flash might I add. Reaper is alright, but its an essential 6 drop if want to give it hexproof, and a 5 drop if you want the death touch. It also restricts your play a lot. Might not allow you to play that Blood Baron the turn you want because then you cant activates its abilities, which then just makes it a 4/5 vanilla. I personally dont think the scy is super relevant either. Especially since he doesnt scry off himself.
I played the FNM yesterday with my first version of the deck. I ended 2-2, with good feelings of the final result, but I know I need to improve. This is the list I played:
Match 1: vs Dimir Control, 0-2
The deck mocks me. Nothing more to say
Match 2: vs Selesnya aggro, 2-0
A newbie kid, I played easy. Victory without value.
Match 3: vs Junk Reanimator, 2-0
The first competitive match. Obzedat fell at the power of my Selesnya Charm and Scavenging Ooze (and DRS in second game) ate everything. Good.
Match 4: vs Naya, 1-2
The first and third game I didn't have response, he wrecked me. The second game I draw all my Loxodon Smiters, a couple of Reaper of the Wilds and a Blood Baron of Vizkopa, so his Boros Reckoner were a little useless.
The main problem I found is the first turns, I have nothing to do until I have a little thread (I didn't have any yesterday...)
Reading some posts, I rebuild my deck a little, I hope it start to works the next week:
I didn't have the lions, so I didn't included it yesterday (I'll receive it this week). The main problem I saw is that I have very little very little threads, so the opponent can play easy the first turns; Caryatid can help me to block the first turns while I have more, and Lion can make pressure in early game and be almost invincible in late.
Everyone wants the Whip of Erebos, but in my games I used only the lifelink of the whip, I think Bow of Nylea can help me more because in every turn I can do something. Little flying menaces? Let's erase them! Need some lives having game controled? 3 here, please! Blood Baron of Vizkopa with a Mizzium Mortars over his head? A +1/+1 counter and prepare for the party.
Devour Flesh is a personal bet: if I find some hexproof creature I can deal with him, and if I need some lives I can sacrife my own Sylvan Caryatid (better if it have some +1/+1 counters) in late games in order to survive.
I'll try this week, but I want to know your opinions.
How are the abrupt decays working for you? I'm surprised you didnt feel you had enough threats with your initial build. I would try to keep thoughtseize in, it handles everything that you can't as long as you get rid of it before you play it.
Did you realy like bow that much? I play 1 of whip, think I should go 1/1 whip and bow or just 1 bow?! I really like the lifelink of the whip to offset the dmg we take constantly.
Have you tried Hundred Handed one or elspeth for more threat density? How are you liking abrupt decay/devour flesh over something like doom blade? How is reaper doing for you? It seems like you have enough removal that desecration demon might be better.
Abrupt Decay is marvelous: kill early threats and many problems like Detention Sphere, Unflinching Courage and Ethereal Armor, wurm tokens... Is a card that is useful almost all games.
About my first buid, until CMC3 I don't have any serious threat (Ooze only is in late games, but the Caryatid and Mystical...), I need to survive until then, and Naya/Boros/Gruul decks can crush me.
I played the Bow in prerelease, and it gives me a lot of games, so I taste his potential. Now I have three, and I want to test them (I have 3 bows and 3 whips, so if it don't work I can change it).
Elspeth is a solid card, I want to test it when I can have a couple. I don't like Hundred Handed One, seriously...
Doom Blade have a great problem to use it: non-black creature. The problem is that I can't deal with problems like Obzedat, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, Reaper of the Wilds... I like to have all my cards useful in almost every situation. Maybe a couple of Doom Blades in MB and another couple of Dark Betrayal in SB can help it, but I want to test Devour Flesh because its double use (kill opponent's creatures or giving me lives).
Desecration will be in SB for now.
For Devour Flesh your opponent gains life not you.
I 5-0'd FNM last night using this deck list, it performed very well. I felt as if I had decent match ups vs everything pretty much. I think the removal suite needs to be tweaked a bit. I kinda of want to fit a gaze into the main just because it was amazing in a lot of games and it seems like a good out to a stale mate. My MVPs were the whip and the reaper of the wilds, reaper just attacks for free alot, people are afraid to trade with it, it beats boros reckoner 1 on 1, attacks through azorious charm, and the scry adds up so much. The whip is amazing in all match ups, the lifelink is crazy, and against control they pretty much can't get rid of obzedat. Whip also helps beat elspeth because even if she comes down a wipes your board or +1s,you whip a demon or blood baron back into play and kill her no problem.
Match 1:
Esper control; very grindy match up obzedat and whip won it game 1 for me, he didn't quite understand how the triggers worked. Game 2 he barely won after me missing an obzedat trigger because I was forgot after resolving quite a bit of scrys after a board wipe(supreme verdict-go, then I finished scryng and drew the card). Game 3 I just double though seized him and landed an underworld connections and crushed him with card advantage and threats every turn. Elspeth is no problem, aetherling is pretty scary but with the whip its very easy to race.
Match 2: Naya; It was a bit of a brew, not very complete, game 1 he mulled to 5, turn 2'd a domri which I immediatly abrupt decay'ed on my turn and he just didn't come back. Game 2 I had a turn two scavenging ooze with an abrupt decay and 2 doom blades and an unflinching courage in my hand. So I pretty much ran the ooze to victory.
Match 3: Mono Red; this one went a lot better then i expected it would. Game one he went fire drinker into a ash zealot then chandra's pheonix. I went sylvan caryatid into reaper into whip and pretty much took the game over. Game 2 was scary, I had the same opening but he was even more aggressive curved perfectly into a porphoros with devotion up and a stormbreath dragon I was able to stabilize with a good amount of removal to turn devotion off and I ended up throwing an unflinching courage onto an obzedat and won.
Match 4: Mono Black;
This match was very crazy he had a decent deck that I could see being a contender if it's tweaked a bit. Game one I won mostly because I got a whip out, but we still repeatedly traded life totals because of Gray Merchant of Asphodel, he played dark prophecy which also surprisingly worked very well. Game 2 he had an erebos out which turned off my whip that I was banking on and he won fairly quickly. Game 3 I just curved out and ended up winning with an obzedat that he couldn't kill.
Match 5: Junk Aggro
This is an interesting match up, he played a much more aggro oriented list with voices, fleecemane lions, loxodons, advent, boon satyr,archangel and pretty much splashed black just for blood baron and doom blade it seemed.
Game 1 I mulled to 5, and he took it fairly quickly. Game 2 I boarded in the lifebanes but ended up just overwhelming him with caryatid into reaper into blood baron. Game 3 went long we had a big board stall, he had a 1 of elspeth and started tying up the board, he made a misplay of not board wiping me after 2 +1s of elspeth because he had a blood baron of his own out.I had a desecration demon, blood baron, and reaper out, I ended up gazing for 0, scrying a ton killing all the tokens then taking out the elspeth and won very quickly after that.
Coronos, Your deck looks ok but I don't like the Demon at all anymore(especially in this deck). Lots of decks have options that make him a giant liability. He also has been very average for me with the whip. Many times I've paid 4 mana to remove a removal card and later, another 4 mana to sack a creature. No 12+ life swings, no true threat, and a pretty high cost for that ability. AotW is more versatile, and I personally much prefer the Boon Satyr. I also think 4 Reads is one too many.
I agree on dropping a read the bones, but the demon has been amazing. With no undying, lingering souls, or tokens in general it's hard to answer without straight up removal. It wins all fights in the air and synergies nicely with the reaper. I can test out advent for a bit, but I think it would be hard to play with obzedat mana wise.
I didn't get a chance to play FNM this weekend but I figured I would share my ideas for this deck since it seems to be a bit different than what I am seeing on here so far.
I am gonna throw my build out there. Not going to actually be able to test it outside of cockatrice for a week, but in my limited Cockatrice tests it has done well. Still needs to be vetted against control.
I feel that it is at base built well against aggro with Thoughtseize, Sylvan Caryatid and Fiendslayer Paladin MB. My SB needs work and I think I want 2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa. I would probably drop Erebos and Merciless Eviction for them. My concern with the deck is I don't have a lot of answers for the Barron myself. Outside of thoughtseizing him or devouring flesh. I think maybe 2x Boon Satyr instead of the Ordeals, but it love pairing those ordeals on my Paladins, Demons and Oozes.
I don't have Abrupt Decay in there, but I probably should. I am just not sure what to take out. I was thinking of dropping 1x Paladin and 1x Putrefy for 2x Abrupts. I want to keep my Hero's Downfall at 3 because I have a strong black mana base and I fear planeswalkers in a control deck.
Also what do you guys think of Duress in the board? I was thinking of using Sin Collector instead as you can do some horrible things with them and the whip.
After testing grey merchant of ashpodel, i think it could be a real contender in this deck. With lifebane zombie, desecration demon, obzedat, bloodbaron, underworld connections, gaining the 4 and dealing at least 4 is deadly. But, with whip, you can hardcast it to deal 4 and then whip it again and start dealing an insane amount of damage.
Curious about people's thoughts on the build I've put together below. Maindeck is a bit skewed towards fighting the control decks; since it seems like we already have a pretty good game against Rx aggro. I've done very little play testing with it, mostly just goldfished a few hands to see how bad the mana might be.
The plan with the deck is to curve out with some of the biggest dudes available and use a bit of spot removal to help clear the way. Seems like the biggest problems this sort of deck will face are Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, and to a lesser extent Anger of the Gods. Sin Collector main helps shore up these weaknesses, and we have Golgari Charm available in response to a wrath. Reaper of the Wilds seemed like one of the bigger options available at 4 mana and is a bit easier on the mana than something like Desecration Demon. Gods Willing helps against any spot removal we might face and can help push a big dude through to kill an opposing planeswalker. Doom Blade seems like the best answer available for Boros Reckoner and Stormbreath Dragon. Hero's Downfall also helps against the Planeswalkers while also acting as a bit more redundant spot removal.
Sideboard is a bit thrown together at the moment. Blind Obedience and Scavenging Ooze help against some of the aggro decks. Spear of Heliod would be for the mirror/other midrange decks. Thoughtseize against control. Ready // Willing might be better suited for the maindeck, but I'm not sure. Ready helps against wraths and lets us surprise block the other creature decks. Willing seems brutal in the creature on creature matches. Read the Bones fills out the board, I assume you might want it against the other midrange decks?
Glad to see someone running 4 VoR and 4 Lions like I am. The lions are proving to be early game fodder but the monstrous is a great manasink late game. Anyway, on to my thoughts on your build:
1) Why no Sylvan Caryatids I feel that they ramp and fix our mana and has been stellar against my testing with aggro decks.
2) I think 3 Sin Collectors, as much as they are great in the control matchup, are too much. 2 MD maybe - though I'd rather keep them in the SB
3) We are running almost the same creatures except that I don't run Advent of the Wurms or Sin Collector. Instead, I have Boon Satyr (which is awesome - I almost always Flash Bestow for the kill or on a resilient creature BBV/Reaper/Lion/VoR)
4) Gods Willing...I think that slot can be given to 2 Read the Bones/Thoughtseize. Our creatures are resilient enough with hexproof/protection/value (aka VoR) that saving them isn't really an issue. The Golgari Charms can handle the regeneration/saving.
Sylvan Caryatid is definitely on my radar. I assumed the deck already has pretty good game against the aggro decks, and it still dies to Anger of the Gods. The fixing/ramp seems to be the best part. I tried to keep the CC costs to a minimum, so I wasn't sure if the fixing was quite as necessary. The ramp would be nice, but causes us to overextend a little for no intrinsic offensive gain.
3 Sin Collectors main may very well be too many. I figured the point of having them main was to make sure we saw one to pluck a Lightning Strike, Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, etc and 2 felt a bit like hedging. But something to definitely think about.
Boon Satyr was on my shortlist of things to include. The GG in the mana cost pushed me away a little, and I didn't want to overload the 3 slot, since I already had Loxodon Smiter and Sin Collector. The Flash on it does seem really sweet though.
Gods Willing seemed like a good answer to things like Detention Sphere and Doom Blade, while still putting in work against wraths + the bit of reach it can provide by getting another attacker through. Since most of the creatures are on the ground, it seemed like we'd likely need more ways to force an attack against the various planeswalkers around. We don't have burn to handle them, and I don't think we want too many Hero's Downfall due to the BB in the cost.
Glad to see someone running 4 VoR and 4 Lions like I am. The lions are proving to be early game fodder but the monstrous is a great manasink late game. Anyway, on to my thoughts on your build:
1) Why no Sylvan Caryatids I feel that they ramp and fix our mana and has been stellar against my testing with aggro decks.
2) I think 3 Sin Collectors, as much as they are great in the control matchup, are too much. 2 MD maybe - though I'd rather keep them in the SB
3) We are running almost the same creatures except that I don't run Advent of the Wurms or Sin Collector. Instead, I have Boon Satyr (which is awesome - I almost always Flash Bestow for the kill or on a resilient creature BBV/Reaper/Lion/VoR)
4) Gods Willing...I think that slot can be given to 2 Read the Bones/Thoughtseize. Our creatures are resilient enough with hexproof/protection/value (aka VoR) that saving them isn't really an issue. The Golgari Charms can handle the regeneration/saving.
I like to think that 4 VoR and 4 Loxodon Smiter are staples in the deck. VoR is really good against aggro. It trades with so many of their staples and. Then recurs into a token that an at the very least trade with a goblin shortcutter or firedrinker satyr. On the control side, Voice punishes counter spells and instant speed removal. Also, few cards in the UW OR Esper MB kill voice, or in the sideboard for that matter.
Smiter is uncounterable against control so you can count on him coming down. Also, he immediately warrants a kill spell or he poses a huge clock to decks without blockers. On the aggro side he survives anger of the gods. Also, smiter easily blocks most creatures and even trades with a reckoner ( if the damage is tossed at it) or just kills it. There are. Seeing as mizzium mortars nly appears in the SB for most lists i find it unlikely a game 1 smiter wont iqmmediately set the pase for the game, especially with desicration demon or advent or reaper slamming down next turn. Over all I love both of these cards in the deck.
At FNM the week of game day i tested junk mid with a black engine in it. I used 2 lifebane zombies 1 whip 2 obzedat 2 blood baron 1 whip 2 gray merchants 1 of the black mogis cards. The list was fantastic. Gray merchant can easily take over a game if played at the right time. With devotion 4 or more it immediately makes a life swing of 8 which totally puts you opponent into panic. Its almost like a replacement of thragtusk (i mean its not nearly as good but you get the point). Now that i have everything for the deck i think that this engine could be a real powerhouse. Also, the mogis which if your not fimiliar with gies X creatures intimidate and haste where X is your devotion to black. With this card I won so many games. Against mono red or basically any decks that dont share a ton of creature colors this card slays. I casted this against a R/G monsters deck and because Lifebane took the green creature earlier they had 0 blockers. While i had Obzedat, the mogis, lifebane, and a smiter. All of this with the whip out. That means that i gained 15 and also dealt 15 unblockable damage. I strongly suggest taking advantage of the devotion to black.
We don't run ordeals and I agree, it's a nice choice. Except for you're either going more heavy in black than any other color and the double white could be a problem for early game.
We don't run ordeals and I agree, it's a nice choice. Except for you're either going more heavy in black than any other color and the double white could be a problem for early game.
At least in the build I have above, getting 2 W on turn three is pretty simple. The deck has 12 sources in land and the caryatids add another 4.
CMC 3 is totally covered by Loxodon Smiter, Lifebane Zombie , Putrefy and Hero's Downfall. The cards that gives you victory are CMC4 and 5, BBoV, Reaper of the Wilds and Desecration Demon. At least IMO.
It might be me, but I am not totally impressed by the Zombie. In certain situations, like the mirror match, it is amazing. But I feel that against aggro and control it is weak. The smiter is a great card, but the lifegain from the paladin is invaluable in a lot of situations I have found. However, against another midrange deck I would say that smiter is better, but against control and aggro I would want the paladin. So I guess it depends on your meta.
Some testing feed back. Played a game last night against Mono red Aggro sporting Cacklers, Ash Zealots, Chandra's Phoenix, Reckoners, BTE and burn spells. Game 1 Starts with double BTE from him followed. I get out a Caryatid and slow the game down, but he follows with a reckoner. I take a few swings but get a Whip out and Gaze for 3 clearing the board. From there I get a Reaper out and with the Whip in play just take complete control of the game. Game 2 he gets a nut draw and has 3 BTE and 2 Cacklers out on turn 2. I can't get ahead and lose. Game 3, 2x Cacklers by turn 2. My caryatid slows him down and then the Paladin comes out. He is never able to do anything about the paladin and the life gain completely nullifies his burn. He gets a reckoner out, and I play a scooze and abrupt decay his reckoner and begin to dismantle his creature base. He can never re-establish the board and loses.
Gaze in main or side? I have 2 in my SB, but sometimes I feel them necessary in main (my meta is more aggro).
In the last tests, tools like the Bow and the Whip I saw them not necessary. The lifegain is a point, but in the Midrange decks I think Junk must be the quickest. Maybe the Paladin is better in metas full of burn.
I'll try to list every lifegain resource we have, it looks that only the Whip will grant you lives, but you are loosing slots in a card that not always be useful.
P.D: no one tried Hopeful Eidolon? A cheap creature and grows/lifelink enchantment
I run 2 MB and 1 SB. My deck list is B/G/w and built much more off of a Rock base than a G/W base. I rarely miss having the Gazes around and with the Caryatids around you can get a pretty solid wipe of everything including most enchantments. I have never actually used it for more than 3, which means most of our creatures survive.
The whip is a huge deal IMO. In combination with demons and reapers it can keep you alive for a long time, 8 and 12 point life swings are no joke. And let's say yon get caught by a verdict, well they better be prepared for a demon to the face next turn. The whip also has amazing synergy with Obzedat, which is one reason I play him over BBoV, who I find more situational.
The hopeful eidolon is kind of meh in my book. 1cmc for a 1/1 life links underwhelming and will get stomped by aggro unless you are running a good deal of pumps. For 4cmc that gives lifelink and +1/1 I think I would want something else in that spot, like the whip, which gives me more utility. That is just me and fits The deck I am playing more.
I will post more results of my cockatrice game tests..
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I also use Fiendslayer Paladin with great results. He's hard to kill, has lifelink and is a stud with Boon Satyrs. Having both BBoV and Fiendslayer in a deck that uses Boon Satyrs just doesn't seem fair to aggro players. I also like mainly shoring up my aggro matchup game one. I use both Obzedat(3) and BBoV(2) with 2 Whips for good measure. Not a fan of the demon. Way too easy for Gruul, aggro, the mirror etc, make him fairly useless. It doesn't hurt that I find the utility of Advent to be better and my base is more geared towards GW.
Its interesting you worked your way to Desecration Demon. My very first list had him in it, along with Lifebane Zombies. Here is the list for reference.
4 Desecration Demon
3 Lifebane Zombie
4 Sylvan Carytid
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Archangel of Thune
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Putrefy
3 Selesnya Charm
3 Advent of the Wurm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Doom Blade
Planeswalkers:
2 Elspeth
25 lands
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Godless Shrine
2 Temple of Silence
1 Golgari Guildgate
4 Swamp
4 Forest
2 Plains
I posted the list on one of Todd Andersons articles that he asked to see lists on and he said this about it:
"Deck looks sweet, but the BB, WW, G aspects are all going to stretch your mana pretty thin. I would focus more on GW and maybe just splash black for some removal, as I'm not sure Lifebane or Demon are going to be all that great after rotation. They're obviously fine, but not when black is basically your splash color. Love Putrefy, Advent, and the rest of the creatures, as well as the Charms. "
So then I took it in the direction you see as the sample list.
Have you run into the problems he mentioned? Then again I had Lifebane as well as Demon so it stretched the mana even more. I would like to explore the idea of Demon again for sure. He is just such a massive creature on the 3, even then 4 he is good. Overall I really like your list though.
I have not noticed too many issues to be honest,There have been a couple times where I do not drop the demon on turn 4, but it is still often mana that is used regardless. Either by putting out a token, boosting ooze, dropping spare creatures etc.
I would also like to mention that not only is your list demanding BB but also WW and even GG. Excessive double demands like that are a lot more detrimental than the occasional double demand. Instead of a fair portion of your multi color cards spreading the demand to just 2 colors and 1 of each, you have instances where it is not only BB or WW, but GGW. In total, you have double demand on 14 cards as opposed to my 7 which is actually quite substantial.
So I agree with Todd that the mana is easy to spread thin, but I think that is an issue that is easily addressed by just examining what is actually causing it and why, which is often just overlooked at time for no other reason that it slips the brain.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
I did notice my initial list had the good ol triple double. Thats awesome you are liking the list. I will change mine up as well to do some testing.
Have you found Desecration Demon better than Advent of the Wurm?
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Fleecemane Lion
3x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Loxodon Smiter
2x Desecration Demon
2x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Archangel of Thune
2x Doom Blade
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Read the Bones
1x Orzhov Keyrune
2x Putrefy
1x Hero's Downfall
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Godless Shrine
2x Temple of Silence
2x Golgari Guildgate
2x Selesnya Guildgate
5x Forest
3x Thoughtseize
2x Golgari Charm
1x Underworld Connections
2x Sin Collector
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Witchstalker
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Vraska, the Unseen
I dont understand how people are not running Reaper either?! The card is just insanely good.
I personally dont think its as good as Advent of the Wurm.
I dont want a card that I have to keep investing mana into. Where as Advent of the Wurm its a 5/5 Trampler for 4 all the time. With flash might I add. Reaper is alright, but its an essential 6 drop if want to give it hexproof, and a 5 drop if you want the death touch. It also restricts your play a lot. Might not allow you to play that Blood Baron the turn you want because then you cant activates its abilities, which then just makes it a 4/5 vanilla. I personally dont think the scy is super relevant either. Especially since he doesnt scry off himself.
How are the abrupt decays working for you? I'm surprised you didnt feel you had enough threats with your initial build. I would try to keep thoughtseize in, it handles everything that you can't as long as you get rid of it before you play it.
Did you realy like bow that much? I play 1 of whip, think I should go 1/1 whip and bow or just 1 bow?! I really like the lifelink of the whip to offset the dmg we take constantly.
Have you tried Hundred Handed one or elspeth for more threat density? How are you liking abrupt decay/devour flesh over something like doom blade? How is reaper doing for you? It seems like you have enough removal that desecration demon might be better.
For Devour Flesh your opponent gains life not you.
He's talking about using it on himself.
Match 1:
Esper control; very grindy match up obzedat and whip won it game 1 for me, he didn't quite understand how the triggers worked. Game 2 he barely won after me missing an obzedat trigger because I was forgot after resolving quite a bit of scrys after a board wipe(supreme verdict-go, then I finished scryng and drew the card). Game 3 I just double though seized him and landed an underworld connections and crushed him with card advantage and threats every turn. Elspeth is no problem, aetherling is pretty scary but with the whip its very easy to race.
Match 2: Naya; It was a bit of a brew, not very complete, game 1 he mulled to 5, turn 2'd a domri which I immediatly abrupt decay'ed on my turn and he just didn't come back. Game 2 I had a turn two scavenging ooze with an abrupt decay and 2 doom blades and an unflinching courage in my hand. So I pretty much ran the ooze to victory.
Match 3: Mono Red; this one went a lot better then i expected it would. Game one he went fire drinker into a ash zealot then chandra's pheonix. I went sylvan caryatid into reaper into whip and pretty much took the game over. Game 2 was scary, I had the same opening but he was even more aggressive curved perfectly into a porphoros with devotion up and a stormbreath dragon I was able to stabilize with a good amount of removal to turn devotion off and I ended up throwing an unflinching courage onto an obzedat and won.
Match 4: Mono Black;
This match was very crazy he had a decent deck that I could see being a contender if it's tweaked a bit. Game one I won mostly because I got a whip out, but we still repeatedly traded life totals because of Gray Merchant of Asphodel, he played dark prophecy which also surprisingly worked very well. Game 2 he had an erebos out which turned off my whip that I was banking on and he won fairly quickly. Game 3 I just curved out and ended up winning with an obzedat that he couldn't kill.
Match 5: Junk Aggro
This is an interesting match up, he played a much more aggro oriented list with voices, fleecemane lions, loxodons, advent, boon satyr,archangel and pretty much splashed black just for blood baron and doom blade it seemed.
Game 1 I mulled to 5, and he took it fairly quickly. Game 2 I boarded in the lifebanes but ended up just overwhelming him with caryatid into reaper into blood baron. Game 3 went long we had a big board stall, he had a 1 of elspeth and started tying up the board, he made a misplay of not board wiping me after 2 +1s of elspeth because he had a blood baron of his own out.I had a desecration demon, blood baron, and reaper out, I ended up gazing for 0, scrying a ton killing all the tokens then taking out the elspeth and won very quickly after that.
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Desecration Demon
3 Reaper of the Wilds
Instants:
2 Doom Blade
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Putrefy
1 Hero's Downfall
4 Read the Bones
Artifact/Enchantment:
2 Whip of Erebos
Lands:
4 Godless Shrine
2 Temple of Silence
4 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Gaze of Granite
2 Underworld Connections
2 Golgari Charm
3 Unflinching Courage
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Thoughtseize
Overall I liked the deck alot, been testing it a decent amount and im planning to bring it to states in two weeks, im open to all suggestions.
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Scavenging Ooze
3x Lifebane Zombie
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Desecration Demon
2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Obzedat, Ghost Council
1x Angel of Serenity
Land (24)
4x Temple Garden
4x Godless Shrine
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Temple of Silence
3x Plains
4x Forest
3x Swamp
3x Thoughtseize
Instant (9)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Doom Blade
1x Golgari Charm
2x Putrefy
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Selesnya Charm
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Doom Blade
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Duress
1x Gaze of Granite
3x Sin Collector
3x Witchstalker
1x Obzedat, Ghost Council
WUBRGProgenitus
BGWUAtraxa, Praetors' Voice
BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores
BGRKresh, The Bloodbraided
BWRKaalia of the Vast
RWUShu Yun, The Silent Tempest
BUGrimgrin, The Corpse-Born
RDaretti, Scrap Savant
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Desecration Demon
3x Reaper of the Wilds
2x Obzedat, Ghost Council
4x Fiendslayer Paladin
Enchantments
2x Underworld Connections
Artifacts
2x Whip of Erebos
Spells
4x Thoughtseize
2x Selesyna Charm
2x Gaze of Granite
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Putrefy
4x Godless Shrine
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Temple Garden
2x Temple of Silence
3x Forest
5x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
2x Pithing Needle
1x Vraska, the Unseen
3x Duress
2x Devour Flesh
2x Golgari Charm
1x Gaze of Granite
2x Ordeal of Heliod
1x Merciless Eviction
I feel that it is at base built well against aggro with Thoughtseize, Sylvan Caryatid and Fiendslayer Paladin MB. My SB needs work and I think I want 2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa. I would probably drop Erebos and Merciless Eviction for them. My concern with the deck is I don't have a lot of answers for the Barron myself. Outside of thoughtseizing him or devouring flesh. I think maybe 2x Boon Satyr instead of the Ordeals, but it love pairing those ordeals on my Paladins, Demons and Oozes.
I don't have Abrupt Decay in there, but I probably should. I am just not sure what to take out. I was thinking of dropping 1x Paladin and 1x Putrefy for 2x Abrupts. I want to keep my Hero's Downfall at 3 because I have a strong black mana base and I fear planeswalkers in a control deck.
Also what do you guys think of Duress in the board? I was thinking of using Sin Collector instead as you can do some horrible things with them and the whip.
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Sin Collector
4 Advent of the Wurm
3 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Spells
3 Gods Willing
3 Doom Blade
3 Golgari Charm
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Silence
2 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Blind Obedience
2 Read the Bones
2 Ready // Willing
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sin Collector
2 Spear of Heliod
3 Thoughtseize
The plan with the deck is to curve out with some of the biggest dudes available and use a bit of spot removal to help clear the way. Seems like the biggest problems this sort of deck will face are Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, and to a lesser extent Anger of the Gods. Sin Collector main helps shore up these weaknesses, and we have Golgari Charm available in response to a wrath. Reaper of the Wilds seemed like one of the bigger options available at 4 mana and is a bit easier on the mana than something like Desecration Demon. Gods Willing helps against any spot removal we might face and can help push a big dude through to kill an opposing planeswalker. Doom Blade seems like the best answer available for Boros Reckoner and Stormbreath Dragon. Hero's Downfall also helps against the Planeswalkers while also acting as a bit more redundant spot removal.
Sideboard is a bit thrown together at the moment. Blind Obedience and Scavenging Ooze help against some of the aggro decks. Spear of Heliod would be for the mirror/other midrange decks. Thoughtseize against control. Ready // Willing might be better suited for the maindeck, but I'm not sure. Ready helps against wraths and lets us surprise block the other creature decks. Willing seems brutal in the creature on creature matches. Read the Bones fills out the board, I assume you might want it against the other midrange decks?
Glad to see someone running 4 VoR and 4 Lions like I am. The lions are proving to be early game fodder but the monstrous is a great manasink late game. Anyway, on to my thoughts on your build:
1) Why no Sylvan Caryatids I feel that they ramp and fix our mana and has been stellar against my testing with aggro decks.
2) I think 3 Sin Collectors, as much as they are great in the control matchup, are too much. 2 MD maybe - though I'd rather keep them in the SB
3) We are running almost the same creatures except that I don't run Advent of the Wurms or Sin Collector. Instead, I have Boon Satyr (which is awesome - I almost always Flash Bestow for the kill or on a resilient creature BBV/Reaper/Lion/VoR)
4) Gods Willing...I think that slot can be given to 2 Read the Bones/Thoughtseize. Our creatures are resilient enough with hexproof/protection/value (aka VoR) that saving them isn't really an issue. The Golgari Charms can handle the regeneration/saving.
Sylvan Caryatid is definitely on my radar. I assumed the deck already has pretty good game against the aggro decks, and it still dies to Anger of the Gods. The fixing/ramp seems to be the best part. I tried to keep the CC costs to a minimum, so I wasn't sure if the fixing was quite as necessary. The ramp would be nice, but causes us to overextend a little for no intrinsic offensive gain.
3 Sin Collectors main may very well be too many. I figured the point of having them main was to make sure we saw one to pluck a Lightning Strike, Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, etc and 2 felt a bit like hedging. But something to definitely think about.
Boon Satyr was on my shortlist of things to include. The GG in the mana cost pushed me away a little, and I didn't want to overload the 3 slot, since I already had Loxodon Smiter and Sin Collector. The Flash on it does seem really sweet though.
Gods Willing seemed like a good answer to things like Detention Sphere and Doom Blade, while still putting in work against wraths + the bit of reach it can provide by getting another attacker through. Since most of the creatures are on the ground, it seemed like we'd likely need more ways to force an attack against the various planeswalkers around. We don't have burn to handle them, and I don't think we want too many Hero's Downfall due to the BB in the cost.
Smiter is uncounterable against control so you can count on him coming down. Also, he immediately warrants a kill spell or he poses a huge clock to decks without blockers. On the aggro side he survives anger of the gods. Also, smiter easily blocks most creatures and even trades with a reckoner ( if the damage is tossed at it) or just kills it. There are. Seeing as mizzium mortars nly appears in the SB for most lists i find it unlikely a game 1 smiter wont iqmmediately set the pase for the game, especially with desicration demon or advent or reaper slamming down next turn. Over all I love both of these cards in the deck.
At FNM the week of game day i tested junk mid with a black engine in it. I used 2 lifebane zombies 1 whip 2 obzedat 2 blood baron 1 whip 2 gray merchants 1 of the black mogis cards. The list was fantastic. Gray merchant can easily take over a game if played at the right time. With devotion 4 or more it immediately makes a life swing of 8 which totally puts you opponent into panic. Its almost like a replacement of thragtusk (i mean its not nearly as good but you get the point). Now that i have everything for the deck i think that this engine could be a real powerhouse. Also, the mogis which if your not fimiliar with gies X creatures intimidate and haste where X is your devotion to black. With this card I won so many games. Against mono red or basically any decks that dont share a ton of creature colors this card slays. I casted this against a R/G monsters deck and because Lifebane took the green creature earlier they had 0 blockers. While i had Obzedat, the mogis, lifebane, and a smiter. All of this with the whip out. That means that i gained 15 and also dealt 15 unblockable damage. I strongly suggest taking advantage of the devotion to black.
At least in the build I have above, getting 2 W on turn three is pretty simple. The deck has 12 sources in land and the caryatids add another 4.
It might be me, but I am not totally impressed by the Zombie. In certain situations, like the mirror match, it is amazing. But I feel that against aggro and control it is weak. The smiter is a great card, but the lifegain from the paladin is invaluable in a lot of situations I have found. However, against another midrange deck I would say that smiter is better, but against control and aggro I would want the paladin. So I guess it depends on your meta.
Some testing feed back. Played a game last night against Mono red Aggro sporting Cacklers, Ash Zealots, Chandra's Phoenix, Reckoners, BTE and burn spells. Game 1 Starts with double BTE from him followed. I get out a Caryatid and slow the game down, but he follows with a reckoner. I take a few swings but get a Whip out and Gaze for 3 clearing the board. From there I get a Reaper out and with the Whip in play just take complete control of the game. Game 2 he gets a nut draw and has 3 BTE and 2 Cacklers out on turn 2. I can't get ahead and lose. Game 3, 2x Cacklers by turn 2. My caryatid slows him down and then the Paladin comes out. He is never able to do anything about the paladin and the life gain completely nullifies his burn. He gets a reckoner out, and I play a scooze and abrupt decay his reckoner and begin to dismantle his creature base. He can never re-establish the board and loses.
Btw is there anyway to post Cockatrice replays?
I run 2 MB and 1 SB. My deck list is B/G/w and built much more off of a Rock base than a G/W base. I rarely miss having the Gazes around and with the Caryatids around you can get a pretty solid wipe of everything including most enchantments. I have never actually used it for more than 3, which means most of our creatures survive.
The whip is a huge deal IMO. In combination with demons and reapers it can keep you alive for a long time, 8 and 12 point life swings are no joke. And let's say yon get caught by a verdict, well they better be prepared for a demon to the face next turn. The whip also has amazing synergy with Obzedat, which is one reason I play him over BBoV, who I find more situational.
The hopeful eidolon is kind of meh in my book. 1cmc for a 1/1 life links underwhelming and will get stomped by aggro unless you are running a good deal of pumps. For 4cmc that gives lifelink and +1/1 I think I would want something else in that spot, like the whip, which gives me more utility. That is just me and fits The deck I am playing more.
I will post more results of my cockatrice game tests..
I also use Fiendslayer Paladin with great results. He's hard to kill, has lifelink and is a stud with Boon Satyrs. Having both BBoV and Fiendslayer in a deck that uses Boon Satyrs just doesn't seem fair to aggro players. I also like mainly shoring up my aggro matchup game one. I use both Obzedat(3) and BBoV(2) with 2 Whips for good measure. Not a fan of the demon. Way too easy for Gruul, aggro, the mirror etc, make him fairly useless. It doesn't hurt that I find the utility of Advent to be better and my base is more geared towards GW.