I do like it better but there's some cards I just don't like in there either way. I don't like Cerberus or Varolz in this deck, and would rather have Ruric Thar, the 2 Lifebane and the Sire out of the board. Add 4 more removal(3 dreadbore/1 more abrupt) and maybe switch out the Varolz for Loltrolls(or something else) and your deck would look pretty good(IMO).
This is all just my personal belief but I did play your deck for a little while and it just never came together for me. I lost badly a few times to devotion decks when I just couldn't get removal at the right times. Since this deck is fairly slow, I never got off fast enough. Varolz usually was a speed bump and I had mana problems a few times which makes me wonder if another land would do more than Erebos.
Sorry that I'm picking your deck apart. I just liked some aspects of it and after testing some, this is what I noticed.
I welcome the constructive criticism, truly. I just think you misunderstand the premise of the deck, which is to present huge, hard-to-answer threats from turn 3 forward. Domri also doesn't work anywhere near as well with less than 26 creatures in the deck with 3+ of him - I would even recommend 27 with 3 Domri, and as close to 30+ as you can get with 4 of him). Cerberus should be the finishing creature if you can afford to slow roll him, as you want your opponents' answers exhausted when you cast a 6/6 evasive dog that rebuts all your dead beaters/dorks. Varolz being a speed bump early is fine: you aren't going to get 2-for-1s (or better) every time you use a card, but when you peel a Varolz late, you're going to put so much pressure on from them on that it's worth the slots. Also, he's not affected by Cerberus's "drawback" like Ooze DRS are, though those two are quite useful at clearing opponents' GY'd creatures before a Cerberus comes down.
Just think of this deck as the inverse of a creatureless control deck: our creatures push our opponents into corners they don't want to be in/must have the outs to or they lose.
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Yeah that's something I'm usually all for. Although I think this is the rare format that the removal actually wins. You could draw ramp, 3 drop, then every nonland card say a Kalonian Hydra and still lose in this format. This is a weird format where the location of the card advantage and removal can actually make it so an opponent can keep up on one for ones. Answers are generally better than individual threats. It is sort of frustrating. But it really pushes reevaluation of what strategies are worth pursuing.
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anyone still working on some sort of Domri-based Jund Aggressive Midrange deck? I tried this G-heavy version against my son's UW Control several games tonight and felt like it was much better there than the Gruul monsters I've been playing. I've been wanting to take it to an FNM or similar event and haven't had a chance yet, so it's still pretty rough ...
the idea is to plan on being an Aggressive Midrange deck in game 1 with the option to sideboard into something a little more controlling if necessary - I think most of the choices are obvious enough to not warrant justification at this point - thoughts anyone?
I agree. Generally after playing a lot of 2 color combinations they never felt powerful enough. Mind you the mana still sucks here. I've tried to take what I've learned from playing Golgari and all the other GBx splashes the last couple months to bring it back here.
Some things I learned since I was last on this thread.
1. Weapons are generally better than cheap planeswalkers. Domri is alright but you need some other things going. You still want these resilient permanents but against devotion you don't get to protect Domri.
2. It really is worth having the last threat standing. Resilient threats are better than high power ones. Haste is the exception. Haste is still very good in this format if you curve out. But if you are playing the individual threat game all threats have to be good enough on their own or with a hard to kill permanent.
3. Using #2 and understanding the speed of the format all in cuteness like Flesh/Blood Ghor Clan which I was very happy with before is too conditional. This is a weird format where it's almost impossible to tell from your opener if you've got the game. With so much low power sinergistic stuff going around it really depends on your draws. If you are on good stuff they have to be good enough on their own. I'm not saying we shouldn't build up resilient things, but having cards like Blood you can't cast at times or Ghor Clan you don't want to cast is hard. Thoughtseize lays waste to any reallly good planning. Boon Satyr is sort of the exception but it's an expensive card. Think 5 drop. I've liked it a lot in many of my lists but it's better when you can play it as a 3 drop and any Caryatid list can't really afford to play it as a 3 (too many slows taken in the low range).
4. Since you are sort of doomed if you do and doomed if you don't and the format seems so random it's best to just pick one sort of avenue in a matchup and go with it because you need redundancy. It's not about finding the perfect balance with tuning one ofs. The cards value will so wildly fluctuate you just want to be drawing the right stuff. So if you are on the creature body threat density plan, drop the removal. Drop all of it. I usually don't like my board to be all removal because it means boarding out threats but really I find when I'm boarding in the removal I need I'm boarding it all in. It's more like transformational in Jund Midrange than augmenting the main plan. I like the proactive plan main since I think you have more chance of winning the random games.
5. Protection blue creatures are basically just all upside. Sometimes they suck but they are the key to our worst matchups. Skylasher as a flash 2 drop is especially useful against aggro since I have no real removal game 1. Back when we were trying Thrill Kill Assassin I think this was the card we were looking for. Something like Kalonian Tusker is hard to cast given mana costs in the lists.
6. Oh and as for mana.. You really don't want to be playing more than 3-4 taplands. Sort of sucks we might have to but I would not play more than 5 tops. If you can't make your colours work at that point cut down the requirements.
Anyway this is a list of putting together all the cards that have impressed me across all the different lists I've been testing. There are a decent number of 3's although most of them are legendary or the type of creatures you'd want to be legendary. I think the Nylea's Presence might be better than the 4th Caryatid, but I'm still figuring that out. Bow of Nylea however does let you loosen up on removal a bit. I know it seems kind of crazy to play no Doom Blade's, Ultimate Price, or Hero's Downfall. But in the matchups I need removal I think Anger, Abrupt Decay, and Golgari Charms are the real winner.. Bow basically does the rest.
There might be a need for some removal for sure, but the most important thing I'm happy about with this list is I'm pretty sure these are the best creatures for this sort of list. I've tried all the 2 and 3 color Gx variations and came back here. There are a few honorable mentions: Boon Satyr, and Varolz come to mind mostly, and some cards that aren't as good in other lists like Exava (arguably one of the weakest links here and is mostly redeemed by first strike deathtouch to give it dimension outside of just pure speed, and all in on Troll Haste), and Underworld Cerberus that started very strong in the format but slowly got worse as more weenie devotion decks showed up (but still very good against midrange). But overall I think I've finally got to my optimal choices, which was very hard in this format especially at the 4 drop slot where nothing is particularly good. Ironically while 5 has some of the best cards it's just too expensive to depend on. Mistcutter ends up being much stronger than Kalonian Hydra, or Stormbreath just on flexibility.
thanks ryansolid, I'll be going back over your post and trying to internalize it ... I hadn't bothered with posting any updates since I didn't want to feel like I was talking to myself - after further testing my build had drifted into something like this ...
the idea was to still be one of the most aggressive midrange decks in the room with multiple harder-to-kill creatures (Witchstalker, Varolz, Reaper) and a little disruption (Thoughtseize, Dreadbore) that should be good in practically in any match-up - scavenging Tusker with Varolz felt particularly good a lot of the time - at FNM, the deck made top 4 with a silly 2-0-2 record; the deck was good at not losing at least (game 3 time/turns/draw against UWr control and Maze's End) ... I also tried it some casually with a Nylea, God of the Hunt over one of the Rampagers and moving the Bow back main and liked it less
more recently, I've been considering trying Scavenging Ooze back in the main and punting Varolz as the deck does do quite a bit of self-damage ... also, wondering if the 2 Reaper should just be Desecration Demon - Demon is harder to cast at BB but would actually be a 4-drop where as it is often necessary to drop Reaper with the mana up to activate hexproof - and a 6/6 flyer would be nice - Demon would also tempt me to get Flesh//Blood back in there to live the dream of attack with Demon + GCR + Blood to deal 20 or more likely let a large tapped Demon still deal quite a bit of unexpected damage
thanks ryansolid, I'll be going back over your post and trying to internalize it ... I hadn't bothered with posting any updates since I didn't want to feel like I was talking to myself - after further testing my build had drifted into something like this ...
the idea was to still be one of the most aggressive midrange decks in the room with multiple harder-to-kill creatures (Witchstalker, Varolz, Reaper) and a little disruption (Thoughtseize, Dreadbore) that should be good in practically in any match-up - scavenging Tusker with Varolz felt particularly good a lot of the time - at FNM, the deck made top 4 with a silly 2-0-2 record; the deck was good at not losing at least (game 3 time/turns/draw against UWr control and Maze's End) ... I also tried it some casually with a Nylea, God of the Hunt over one of the Rampagers and moving the Bow back main and liked it less
more recently, I've been considering trying Scavenging Ooze back in the main and punting Varolz as the deck does do quite a bit of self-damage ... also, wondering if the 2 Reaper should just be Desecration Demon - Demon is harder to cast at BB but would actually be a 4-drop where as it is often necessary to drop Reaper with the mana up to activate hexproof - and a 6/6 flyer would be nice - Demon would also tempt me to get Flesh//Blood back in there to live the dream of attack with Demon + GCR + Blood to deal 20 or more likely let a large tapped Demon still deal quite a bit of unexpected damage
The thing is a lot of what we are trying here is like the Fear the Reaper thread other than we have Ghor Clan and Flesh/Blood angle. They have better mana. I mean trading up for more black sources and being able to run even Hero's Downfall versus Dreadbore isn't much different, and Domri doesn't always do a ton. It's comparable let's say. And I'm pretty convinced Ghor Clan/Blood isn't consistent enough.
Then why bother with the red splash. Well I didn't for a long time. I came back to red more for the fact that GB while it can grind with the best it doesn't have enough powerful things. Things like Anger of the Gods, Slaughter Games, even Domri, where in certain places these just ruin strategies. The other thing was no redundancy at 3. This deck wants more Dreg Manglers as far as I'm concerned. Boon Satyr is sort of one, but Exava actually makes a significant difference on size.
Domri I really liked in the beginning, then stopped, then came back. The problem was Domri was good enough pre-rotation to be used with any big threat you had, and got a lot worse when your threats were not resilient nor bigger. This obviously leads to stuff like Demon, but this format it's actually the grindy little trolls that are better.
Demon is a funny card in that it looks like it would be really good but giving an opponent room to play around it loses you games. I went back to Demon recently and just ended up cutting all of them. The truth is both Reaper and Polukranos are bigger than Demon. You just have to not be afraid to trade. Demon is rarely as good as the other 2. If you play enough resilient threats you can be less worried about just running them both at 4.
The problem with these decks in general is not being able to get the last 4-5 damage in. Ghor Clan you would think would help that but it might also be the reason that you don't. Similarly Blood. If you draw Blood and one time it that's great but more often than not you could have just used the other body and played out a different line earlier. Now it's not like these methods don't work, it's just that I don't think they are consistent enough for the amount of damage. Close.. but not quite. Like this isn't a Mirran Crusader + Angelic Destiny. To get the desirable output is more like a 3 card combo.
I actually find Lotleth Troll and Nighthowler my equivalent to Ghor Clan or Blood. Mind you neither of those cards are useless on their own (Nighthowler is pretty bad against mono blue). Troll is actually really important. I feel the deck needs a lot of good 2 drops to get under Thoughtseize, and Troll + Skylasher actually give you a lot of annoying ones for mono black and mono blue. Troll is a house against red decks anyway..
In general the benefit of playing so threat dense with resilient creatures is while your stuff can be hard to kill you have ample early game that you can be less afraid of running out resources and curving out properly. Late game they do the job. The speed is important with haste in that you have to be able to race Pack Rat then and push damage through large creatures. Bow of Nylea actually does great in both respects. My latest list in a way is really stupid. It is just play creatures and turn them sideways. You pretty much play it all out on the board. The benefit though is I find it less easily disrupted. You are less likely to miss your tempo window so you force the opponent to answer ever turn. It really takes this threshold of density and a strength against other board decks (like mono blue.. protection, aggro.. bigger threats, green.. haste/bow/domri).
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I suppose it's worth noting that 2 lists in the top 8 of the last SCG were playing the Ghor Clan/Flesh plan. Mind you that plan is nothing new, and hasn't posted any results before this since the one showing mid October. The stronger planeswalker approach might be aiding it by allowing you to draw out the opponents resources becore going for it but it seems still risky in some matchups. Shrout's GW deck looks much more solid to me which is much closer to what I've been trying to do. It is nice to see some low removal green decks placing.
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I would ask that in the Dega thread, titled Mythic Midrange.
That said, she does seem pretty bonkers there, especially with her ultimate becoming actually threatening, where as she is pretty awful to try and ultimate in our lists.
She is not that good in Dega because alot of our spells are reactionary. Hitting a removal spell off her that we absolutely have to use that turn is not exactly optimal.
Spent more time with the deck and I brought back Ghor Clan. Exava is great but multiples isn't. Maybe it's the shuffler but I always seem to end up with multiples of that card. I am trying a couple Ghor Clan just to push that last bit of damage. I noticed that usually there was one turn where the window made a lot of sense. Mind you the list now has a lot of 2 ofs. Mind you most are splits in a sense (Ghor Clan, Nighthowler, Exava, and Mistcutter are all different sides of the same coin). Either way the main deck I'm getting pretty happy with. I think the Underworld Cerberus out of the board might be unnecessary since the deck has been fairing very well maindeck against the decks that I would think I'd want it.
I have to say I haven't been happy with the Ghor Clans. Usually that's the way I'd go with this sort of list but the truth is I generally wasn't needing Ghor Clan to sneak in 4 extra damage but more to push through singular big threats. Ie.. One Desecration Demon, Elspeth with 3 Tokens, Aetherling (in this case it's actually pretty good), Blood Baron of Viskopa. But in those cases the end result is basically a 1 for 1 with out maybe 2 damage. Where as the straight removal could just opened the path and solved the issue. The deck plays so many creatures that it's not like I ever need Ghor Clan to be a 4/4. I mean ever.. So replacing 2 with 2 Hero's Downfall is reasonable. I wanted something cheaper but what I really need is a hit all.
The 2 Cerberus are great at keeping my creature count up but I think they are a lot lower impact than Vraska where I wanted them. So that's the swap out.. it does mean Domri suffers a bit postboard with both changes. I really should try to find room for one more creature.
Like against UWx Control:
-2 Sylvan Caryatid
-2 Bow
-2 Hero's Downfall
-3 Polukranos
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Mistcutter Hydra
+1 Slaughter Games
+2 Vraska
Means going down to only 26 Creatures. This is probably the worst case. Since you want Domri to draw. I will have to see if this still works Cerberus, though often came too late and the opponent would have infinite D-Sphere.
Against Black:
-2 Mistcutter Hydra
+2 Vraska
Is still 28 Creatures, so that's fine. This matchup is reasonable anyway.
Against Blue Aggro:
-2 Nighthowler
-4 Lotleth Troll
-1 Domri Rade
-1 Reaper
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Anger of the Gods
+1 Mistcutter
+1 Gift of Orzhova
It is going down to only 24 creatures but it is an anti aggro sort of plan and I don't even need Domri.. It's possible the 2nd Gift is better. Having Hero's Downfall is the biggest change here. I'm not sure but it actually might make sense to board them out. I know they are great against Master but I think we can't afford that much removal. I would have always boarded the Ghor Clan or extra Exava's out here.
Against R or W aggro:
-2 Exava
-2 Mistcutter
-2 Bow
+2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Anger
+2 Gift of Orzhova
If they are on the x/1 plan +2 Golgari Charm, -1 Skylasher, -1 Hero's Downfall.. Still 25-26 creatures. In this matchup Domri mostly -2's.
I sideaboard pretty heavily I notice even in matchups with reasonable game 1's. I think it's because I don't just support the main plan against any deck (other than Mono Black). Every postboard game is actually a fairly drastic change in matchup dynamics. That's why on average 6-8 cards get replaced.
The last list was fine but I really started focusing on what made the deck tick. I realized it's tempo. The deck is about taking a small lead and keeping it. Thoughtseize and Vraska weren't really helping that goal and Hero's Downfall was too much on the mana. In fact Anger was too much on the mana. So I'm trying a 14 Black, and 12 Red base.
I'm not sure on the boarding completely but I think Rakdos Return ultimately where I want to be against Control. The timing is aggressive enough that it does a decent fireball that can take care of an Elspeth in a pinch. Similarly I'm leaning harder on Golgari Charm. I think Gaze is better in a RW metagame than Anger. It doesn't come down as early but it clears Chained to the Rocks, Hammers, animated Mountains, and Reckoners without taking damage (although X=2 is usually the sweet spot). I also upped my Gift count.
I upped my Domri count just to make it a bit more consistent and tried to get more numbers of effects I wanted. This list is a touch weaker against mono black when they get the perfect curve of Thoughtseize, Removal, Removal, Demon, Demon, if I don't have bow mind you. But outside of their best (and not even what they consider their best) draw the matchup is more than reasonable.
The last list was fine but I really started focusing on what made the deck tick. I realized it's tempo. The deck is about taking a small lead and keeping it. Thoughtseize and Vraska weren't really helping that goal and Hero's Downfall was too much on the mana.
I'm not sure on the boarding completely but I think Rakdos Return ultimately where I want to be against Control. The timing is aggressive enough that it does a decent fireball that can take care of an Elspeth in a pinch. Similarly I'm leaning harder on Golgari Charm. I think Gaze is better in a RW metagame than Anger. It doesn't come down as early but it clears Chained to the Rocks, Hammers, animated Mountains, and Reckoners without taking damage (although X=2 is usually the sweet spot).
all right ryansolid, I've had also been considering Gaze of Granite lately but hadn't tried it yet - let me know how that works out for you. I will consider some of your other sideboard thoughts as well (Thoughtseize, Vraska the Unseen, Rakdos's Return)
here's the brief overview of my last two weeks or so ...
played something within a card or two of this at FNM last week
I had decided to cut Sylvan Caryatid, giving up mana fixing for extra aggression. I had a good night going 3-0 in matches against green-heavy Gruul devotion, mono-blue devotion, and mono-black devotion - losing only a single game (to mono-blue). I left early to get home as I planned to go to a PTQ the next day.
Specific Card Discussions:
Dreadbore isn't completely dead against some decks like Mizzium Mortars and is not as conditional as Plummet in the sideboard of the Gruul Monsters decks. While it does require each of the minor colors to cast, it is powerful enough to be worth it.
Kalonian Tusker gave me a two-drop that was pretty threatening. It can trade or better with any other common early ground creature. I had been trying to decide if I did really want all four, but I didn't trouble with GG on turn 2 as I was so green-heavy.
Boon Satyr felt pretty weak most of the time, so I decided to cut it completely. This is probably due to not just playing straight Gruul.
Dreg Mangler is one of the black-splash cards in the maindeck. I was happy enough that I wanted that I found myself wishing the fourth copy was in the deck. It plays a role similar to Boon Satyr with haste instead of flash, scavenge is better than bestow at 5 mana as you've already played the card for 3 mana and attacked some. Also, Dreg Mangler can block a little better in a pinch and can't be the target of Doom Blade or Ultimate Price.
Reaper of the Wilds never really did anything too amazing; it felt like a functional 6 drop a lot of the time - I won with a copy in my hand more often than a copy on the battlefield.
I decided to borrow and force 2 Stormbreath Dragon into the deck for the PTQ - this was probably a mistake. I hadn't really practiced with them in the deck, and if I'm going to just jam them anyway, I should've fully committed to more red mana in the deck.
This is how I remember registering the deck for the PTQ:
Round 1: Lost 0-2 to White Weenie Devotion - turn 3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx dump what's left of my hand both games.
Round 2: Lost 1-2 to Naya Pyromancer - I win game 1 without figuring out that it's actually a Pyromancer deck. I sideboard differently for game 3, but still lose a close one.
Round 3: Lost 1-2 to GW Shrout's list - I feel like I steal game 1, but lose two more grindy games - turns out Fleecemane Lion wearing Unflinching Courage is pretty good against me and swings game 3.
After starting 0-3, I know I definitely was just playing for pride and an extremely small chance to get some of my money back in packs for making top 32 at this point. The deck has more severe mana issues than I originally guessed, and I'm probably bringing into too much removal in games 2/3 against GWx instead of staying true to being the beatdown. I refocus and decide that my next loss will be time to get a headstart on the drive home.
Round 4: Win 2-0 against Mono-Red Aggro - manage to stabilize game 1 and then turn the corner pretty quick with better quality creatures. Game 2, he's stuck on 1 land but does play some one-drops - I don't stumble on mana.
Round 5: Win 2-1 against Esper Control - I feel like this configuration is much better against top tier decks. Esper or UW control can win games against me, but I don't feel like an underdog like when the deck did not have the black splash.
Round 6: Win 2-1 against monoblack - he has a nearly unbeatable Thoughtseize, removal, removal, threat sequence in game 1. Games 2 and 3 he dies before getting to four mana, but I think I still would've won the match even if he had a little better luck on the lands. He mentioned having Desecration Demon in hand, but I had Dreadbore in mine.
The metagame had become more what I expected to play against and my deck did what it was designed to do - I was back to 3-3.
Round 7: Lost 1-2 against monoblue devotion. During game 3, we had to call a judge over because I accidentally knocked cards off the top of my deck (my opponent was cool about it, but we wanted to handle it correctly). I was behind on board, probably got rattled, and misplayed a close game. He hit me with AEtherize three times in like a four or five turn span; it was not just a cookie cutter version. More disappointed in myself for that the early losses; I sign the slip and drop instead of playing out the remaining rounds.
Specific Card Discussions:
Stormbreath Dragon was underwhelming most of the day. I had trouble generating RR multiple games.
Witchstalker was good enough against decks that didn't include blue or black. Hexproof quickly made him my favorite Ghor-Clan Rampager into Blood target. One of my losses was to someone responding to a lethal Blood by pumping a Dreg Mangler to 5 and then exiling it with double Selesnya Charm.
Rakdos Guildgate should have either just been basics or Temple of Malice - except that's not been released yet. They help with color fixing, but I was playing a pretty aggressive deck to run over four lands that come into play tapped.
The PTQ was won by someone playing green heavy Gruul Devotion but splashing black; it was a small consolation that the winner attacked the tournament from a similar angle.
Using the results from the PTQ, I played this at FNM last night - my other Stormbreath Dragons have not arrived yet ... I also plan to incorporate 2-3 Xenagos, the Reveler basically moving closer to a Gruul Monsters build with a black splash.
At FNM, I barely won a match against Junk Midrange deck on the back of Ghor-Clan Rampager and Blood in game 3. I then narrowly lost a match to Esper Devotion. I lost another close one to monoblue and called it a night. The silver lining was my lone Stormbreath Dragon did more work in those three matches than the other two did all tournament long the prior weekend.
Specific Card Discussions:
Scavenging Ooze and Kalonian Tusker - I might have to shave a copy of one or both of these to make room for other things. It's hard to justify cutting a two-drop for something more expensive, but sometimes the third Ooze just feels like it should be in the sideboard. On the other hand, it's easier to cast Ooze than Tusker.
Flesh//Blood - I love the possibilities of this card. However, I might have to shave it down to a single copy. Games where you draw both copies seem to be more likely to result in a loss than a win. A single copy still gives you an "oops, I win" card without risking seeing two copies in your first 10 or so cards which is generally pretty miserable even if you're using it as removal.
Dreadbore - I think three copies is actually one too many. Considering that Ghor-Clan Rampager is often pseudoremoval against other creature based decks, two copies will hopefully be enough to deal with more difficult threats or planeswalkers.
Hammer of Purphoros - I originally started working on the deck to help Hammer shine, but I think it's no longer necessary with Dreg Mangler in the deck. The potential stream of 3/3 golem tokens seems good, but I find myself activating the Hammer less and less as I tinker with the other cards in the deck. I almost took it out a couple times already.
Mistcutter Hydra - I've died against monoblue's weenie flyers with one of these in my hand. Almost starting to question, if I need to shave one of these and also find room for 2 Skylasher in my sideboard.
I have a more Stormbreath Dragon and Xenagos, the Reveler on the way. I am potentially going to be foolish and run it back at another PTQ next weekend. Here's where I am tentatively at ...
I might also try out Burning-Tree Emissary and a single Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx with some X-spells in the sideboard (Gaze of Granite, Rakdos's Return, Clan Defiance) before next weekend as well.
This list includes key cards for Jund, Sire of Insanity is ideal versus any deck with less threatening topdecks than this one. Domri Rade and Courser of Kruphix guarantees the value of both while gaining life in the process, so that you never miss a land drop, and you usually get card advantage. Playing Xenagos and Xenagos is a combo by itself, and being that you can turn 3 into Xenagos planeswalker > domri and flip a xenagos god is pretty awesome.
This list covers every angle for Jund, except a lot of removal spells.
For that I think Polukranos can offer some removal, and the rest can overpower an opponent.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
I'm back on trying this stuff. I think we may have finally got a reasonable 5 in Xenagos, God of Revels. The problem I've been having in these Mystic and maybe a couple Caryatid decks is the ability to just slam a 5 and have it stay there. That and the fact that our mana wasn't quite as good as it could be. Temple of Malice is key as it is the more important Scry land for us than Temple of Abandon or Temple of (Golgari) since it's our off colors and this way we can maximize our off green. I've been playing a lot of GW the last month and I think Voice is better than Troll but there is no substitute for Dreg Mangler. Junk was fine but it's harder to support the double whites (which is the reason to play GW), and I think I'd rather have double black potential (I can live without double red). Courser of Kruphix and Malice get rid of some of the awkwardness I was seeing before. I'm still working on a list but with Bile Blight I don't think I need anything as awkward as Gaze anymore. It sort of does a Ghor Clan/Giant Growth impression as an instant when attacking into enemies while being a feasible way to clear blockers into Elspeth or kill Pack Rat or BTE. I think it's still perhaps a bit awkward against Mono Blue. While it kills Master and any one of their threats it isn't quite a sweeper.
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I think the main problem versus blue is the Tidebinder mages that tap down defense, but in this deck you are basically jamming creatures on curve as hard as you can. I can't imagine losing a mana dork and it being much of a problem early game. Being able to consistently curve into Arbor Colossus and Stormbreath Dragon makes for good stabilization versus the fliers in blue. Resolving a Sire of Insanity or a Ruric Thar are two of the biggest strengths of this deck, because with Sire, all of your topdecks are going to be better, and with Ruric Thar, they're just gonna lose at least 5 life, and probably more.
My only contention with my list is that there are almost too many ramp cards, if you include domri/courser.
Though they do defend on the ground very well against aggro.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
I'm back on trying this stuff. I think we may have finally got a reasonable 5 in Xenagos, God of Revels. The problem I've been having in these Mystic and maybe a couple Caryatid decks is the ability to just slam a 5 and have it stay there. That and the fact that our mana wasn't quite as good as it could be. Temple of Malice is key as it is the more important Scry land for us than Temple of Abandon or Temple of (Golgari) since it's our off colors and this way we can maximize our off green. I've been playing a lot of GW the last month and I think Voice is better than Troll but there is no substitute for Dreg Mangler.
oops, I had a very successful showing just before the release of BNG and thought I had linked to the Jund Monsters thread I made but apparently not - meant to keep you in the loop ryansolid - I like a lot of what you're saying in the above quote.
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Had a friend that used to play a similar variation before 13th left. Main differences were;
+ 4 Vexing Devil -4 tormented hero
+ 4 Rampager -3 Exava
+ 4 Corpsejack -3 marauder
+ 4 searing spear -4 your removal
+ 1 Domri -4 shred freak
+ 1 Varolz
It was extremely fast and got even better with Ooze for just a short time. Enjoyed watching it in action.
I welcome the constructive criticism, truly. I just think you misunderstand the premise of the deck, which is to present huge, hard-to-answer threats from turn 3 forward. Domri also doesn't work anywhere near as well with less than 26 creatures in the deck with 3+ of him - I would even recommend 27 with 3 Domri, and as close to 30+ as you can get with 4 of him). Cerberus should be the finishing creature if you can afford to slow roll him, as you want your opponents' answers exhausted when you cast a 6/6 evasive dog that rebuts all your dead beaters/dorks. Varolz being a speed bump early is fine: you aren't going to get 2-for-1s (or better) every time you use a card, but when you peel a Varolz late, you're going to put so much pressure on from them on that it's worth the slots. Also, he's not affected by Cerberus's "drawback" like Ooze DRS are, though those two are quite useful at clearing opponents' GY'd creatures before a Cerberus comes down.
Just think of this deck as the inverse of a creatureless control deck: our creatures push our opponents into corners they don't want to be in/must have the outs to or they lose.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Kalonian Tusker
4 Boon Satyr
2 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Flesh//Blood
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Bow of Nylea
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Golgari Guildgate
6 Forest
3 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Putrefy
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vraska the Unseen
the idea is to plan on being an Aggressive Midrange deck in game 1 with the option to sideboard into something a little more controlling if necessary - I think most of the choices are obvious enough to not warrant justification at this point - thoughts anyone?
Some things I learned since I was last on this thread.
1. Weapons are generally better than cheap planeswalkers. Domri is alright but you need some other things going. You still want these resilient permanents but against devotion you don't get to protect Domri.
2. It really is worth having the last threat standing. Resilient threats are better than high power ones. Haste is the exception. Haste is still very good in this format if you curve out. But if you are playing the individual threat game all threats have to be good enough on their own or with a hard to kill permanent.
3. Using #2 and understanding the speed of the format all in cuteness like Flesh/Blood Ghor Clan which I was very happy with before is too conditional. This is a weird format where it's almost impossible to tell from your opener if you've got the game. With so much low power sinergistic stuff going around it really depends on your draws. If you are on good stuff they have to be good enough on their own. I'm not saying we shouldn't build up resilient things, but having cards like Blood you can't cast at times or Ghor Clan you don't want to cast is hard. Thoughtseize lays waste to any reallly good planning. Boon Satyr is sort of the exception but it's an expensive card. Think 5 drop. I've liked it a lot in many of my lists but it's better when you can play it as a 3 drop and any Caryatid list can't really afford to play it as a 3 (too many slows taken in the low range).
4. Since you are sort of doomed if you do and doomed if you don't and the format seems so random it's best to just pick one sort of avenue in a matchup and go with it because you need redundancy. It's not about finding the perfect balance with tuning one ofs. The cards value will so wildly fluctuate you just want to be drawing the right stuff. So if you are on the creature body threat density plan, drop the removal. Drop all of it. I usually don't like my board to be all removal because it means boarding out threats but really I find when I'm boarding in the removal I need I'm boarding it all in. It's more like transformational in Jund Midrange than augmenting the main plan. I like the proactive plan main since I think you have more chance of winning the random games.
5. Protection blue creatures are basically just all upside. Sometimes they suck but they are the key to our worst matchups. Skylasher as a flash 2 drop is especially useful against aggro since I have no real removal game 1. Back when we were trying Thrill Kill Assassin I think this was the card we were looking for. Something like Kalonian Tusker is hard to cast given mana costs in the lists.
6. Oh and as for mana.. You really don't want to be playing more than 3-4 taplands. Sort of sucks we might have to but I would not play more than 5 tops. If you can't make your colours work at that point cut down the requirements.
Anyway this is a list of putting together all the cards that have impressed me across all the different lists I've been testing. There are a decent number of 3's although most of them are legendary or the type of creatures you'd want to be legendary. I think the Nylea's Presence might be better than the 4th Caryatid, but I'm still figuring that out. Bow of Nylea however does let you loosen up on removal a bit. I know it seems kind of crazy to play no Doom Blade's, Ultimate Price, or Hero's Downfall. But in the matchups I need removal I think Anger, Abrupt Decay, and Golgari Charms are the real winner.. Bow basically does the rest.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Forest
5 Swamp
Creatures(31):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Skylasher
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Nighthowler
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Nylea's Presence
2 Bow of Nylea
2 Domri Rade
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Gift of Orzhova
1 Slaughter Games
1 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Underworld Cerberus
There might be a need for some removal for sure, but the most important thing I'm happy about with this list is I'm pretty sure these are the best creatures for this sort of list. I've tried all the 2 and 3 color Gx variations and came back here. There are a few honorable mentions: Boon Satyr, and Varolz come to mind mostly, and some cards that aren't as good in other lists like Exava (arguably one of the weakest links here and is mostly redeemed by first strike deathtouch to give it dimension outside of just pure speed, and all in on Troll Haste), and Underworld Cerberus that started very strong in the format but slowly got worse as more weenie devotion decks showed up (but still very good against midrange). But overall I think I've finally got to my optimal choices, which was very hard in this format especially at the 4 drop slot where nothing is particularly good. Ironically while 5 has some of the best cards it's just too expensive to depend on. Mistcutter ends up being much stronger than Kalonian Hydra, or Stormbreath just on flexibility.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Kalonian Tusker
3 Boon Satyr
3 Witchstalker
2 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Dreadbore
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hammer of Purphoros
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Golgari Guildgate
5 Forest
4 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
the idea was to still be one of the most aggressive midrange decks in the room with multiple harder-to-kill creatures (Witchstalker, Varolz, Reaper) and a little disruption (Thoughtseize, Dreadbore) that should be good in practically in any match-up - scavenging Tusker with Varolz felt particularly good a lot of the time - at FNM, the deck made top 4 with a silly 2-0-2 record; the deck was good at not losing at least (game 3 time/turns/draw against UWr control and Maze's End) ... I also tried it some casually with a Nylea, God of the Hunt over one of the Rampagers and moving the Bow back main and liked it less
more recently, I've been considering trying Scavenging Ooze back in the main and punting Varolz as the deck does do quite a bit of self-damage ... also, wondering if the 2 Reaper should just be Desecration Demon - Demon is harder to cast at BB but would actually be a 4-drop where as it is often necessary to drop Reaper with the mana up to activate hexproof - and a 6/6 flyer would be nice - Demon would also tempt me to get Flesh//Blood back in there to live the dream of attack with Demon + GCR + Blood to deal 20 or more likely let a large tapped Demon still deal quite a bit of unexpected damage
The thing is a lot of what we are trying here is like the Fear the Reaper thread other than we have Ghor Clan and Flesh/Blood angle. They have better mana. I mean trading up for more black sources and being able to run even Hero's Downfall versus Dreadbore isn't much different, and Domri doesn't always do a ton. It's comparable let's say. And I'm pretty convinced Ghor Clan/Blood isn't consistent enough.
Then why bother with the red splash. Well I didn't for a long time. I came back to red more for the fact that GB while it can grind with the best it doesn't have enough powerful things. Things like Anger of the Gods, Slaughter Games, even Domri, where in certain places these just ruin strategies. The other thing was no redundancy at 3. This deck wants more Dreg Manglers as far as I'm concerned. Boon Satyr is sort of one, but Exava actually makes a significant difference on size.
Domri I really liked in the beginning, then stopped, then came back. The problem was Domri was good enough pre-rotation to be used with any big threat you had, and got a lot worse when your threats were not resilient nor bigger. This obviously leads to stuff like Demon, but this format it's actually the grindy little trolls that are better.
Demon is a funny card in that it looks like it would be really good but giving an opponent room to play around it loses you games. I went back to Demon recently and just ended up cutting all of them. The truth is both Reaper and Polukranos are bigger than Demon. You just have to not be afraid to trade. Demon is rarely as good as the other 2. If you play enough resilient threats you can be less worried about just running them both at 4.
The problem with these decks in general is not being able to get the last 4-5 damage in. Ghor Clan you would think would help that but it might also be the reason that you don't. Similarly Blood. If you draw Blood and one time it that's great but more often than not you could have just used the other body and played out a different line earlier. Now it's not like these methods don't work, it's just that I don't think they are consistent enough for the amount of damage. Close.. but not quite. Like this isn't a Mirran Crusader + Angelic Destiny. To get the desirable output is more like a 3 card combo.
I actually find Lotleth Troll and Nighthowler my equivalent to Ghor Clan or Blood. Mind you neither of those cards are useless on their own (Nighthowler is pretty bad against mono blue). Troll is actually really important. I feel the deck needs a lot of good 2 drops to get under Thoughtseize, and Troll + Skylasher actually give you a lot of annoying ones for mono black and mono blue. Troll is a house against red decks anyway..
In general the benefit of playing so threat dense with resilient creatures is while your stuff can be hard to kill you have ample early game that you can be less afraid of running out resources and curving out properly. Late game they do the job. The speed is important with haste in that you have to be able to race Pack Rat then and push damage through large creatures. Bow of Nylea actually does great in both respects. My latest list in a way is really stupid. It is just play creatures and turn them sideways. You pretty much play it all out on the board. The benefit though is I find it less easily disrupted. You are less likely to miss your tempo window so you force the opponent to answer ever turn. It really takes this threshold of density and a strength against other board decks (like mono blue.. protection, aggro.. bigger threats, green.. haste/bow/domri).
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
She is not that good in Dega because alot of our spells are reactionary. Hitting a removal spell off her that we absolutely have to use that turn is not exactly optimal.
MtG Sales List
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Forest
5 Swamp
Creatures(32):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Skylasher
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Nighthowler
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Ghor Clan Rampager
3 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Bow of Nylea
2 Domri Rade
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Gift of Orzhova
1 Slaughter Games
1 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Underworld Cerberus
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
The 2 Cerberus are great at keeping my creature count up but I think they are a lot lower impact than Vraska where I wanted them. So that's the swap out.. it does mean Domri suffers a bit postboard with both changes. I really should try to find room for one more creature.
Like against UWx Control:
-2 Sylvan Caryatid
-2 Bow
-2 Hero's Downfall
-3 Polukranos
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Mistcutter Hydra
+1 Slaughter Games
+2 Vraska
Means going down to only 26 Creatures. This is probably the worst case. Since you want Domri to draw. I will have to see if this still works Cerberus, though often came too late and the opponent would have infinite D-Sphere.
Against Black:
-2 Mistcutter Hydra
+2 Vraska
Is still 28 Creatures, so that's fine. This matchup is reasonable anyway.
Against Blue Aggro:
-2 Nighthowler
-4 Lotleth Troll
-1 Domri Rade
-1 Reaper
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Anger of the Gods
+1 Mistcutter
+1 Gift of Orzhova
It is going down to only 24 creatures but it is an anti aggro sort of plan and I don't even need Domri.. It's possible the 2nd Gift is better. Having Hero's Downfall is the biggest change here. I'm not sure but it actually might make sense to board them out. I know they are great against Master but I think we can't afford that much removal. I would have always boarded the Ghor Clan or extra Exava's out here.
Against R or W aggro:
-2 Exava
-2 Mistcutter
-2 Bow
+2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Anger
+2 Gift of Orzhova
If they are on the x/1 plan +2 Golgari Charm, -1 Skylasher, -1 Hero's Downfall.. Still 25-26 creatures. In this matchup Domri mostly -2's.
I sideaboard pretty heavily I notice even in matchups with reasonable game 1's. I think it's because I don't just support the main plan against any deck (other than Mono Black). Every postboard game is actually a fairly drastic change in matchup dynamics. That's why on average 6-8 cards get replaced.
Anyway, here's the current list.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Forest
5 Swamp
Creatures(30):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Skylasher
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Nighthowler
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Bow of Nylea
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Domri Rade
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Gift of Orzhova
1 Slaughter Games
1 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Vraska, the Unseen
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I'm not sure on the boarding completely but I think Rakdos Return ultimately where I want to be against Control. The timing is aggressive enough that it does a decent fireball that can take care of an Elspeth in a pinch. Similarly I'm leaning harder on Golgari Charm. I think Gaze is better in a RW metagame than Anger. It doesn't come down as early but it clears Chained to the Rocks, Hammers, animated Mountains, and Reckoners without taking damage (although X=2 is usually the sweet spot). I also upped my Gift count.
I upped my Domri count just to make it a bit more consistent and tried to get more numbers of effects I wanted. This list is a touch weaker against mono black when they get the perfect curve of Thoughtseize, Removal, Removal, Demon, Demon, if I don't have bow mind you. But outside of their best (and not even what they consider their best) draw the matchup is more than reasonable.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
3 Temple of Abandon
1 Golgari Guildgate
3 Forest
5 Swamp
Creatures(30):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Skylasher
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Nighthowler
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Bow of Nylea
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Domri Rade
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Golgari Charm
3 Gift of Orzhova
1 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Gaze of Granite
2 Rakdos' Return
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
all right ryansolid, I've had also been considering Gaze of Granite lately but hadn't tried it yet - let me know how that works out for you. I will consider some of your other sideboard thoughts as well (Thoughtseize, Vraska the Unseen, Rakdos's Return)
here's the brief overview of my last two weeks or so ...
played something within a card or two of this at FNM last week
4 Kalonian Tusker
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Witchstalker
3 Dreg Mangler
2 Boon Satyr
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Dreadbore
2 Flesh//Blood
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
5 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Chandra, the Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
I had decided to cut Sylvan Caryatid, giving up mana fixing for extra aggression. I had a good night going 3-0 in matches against green-heavy Gruul devotion, mono-blue devotion, and mono-black devotion - losing only a single game (to mono-blue). I left early to get home as I planned to go to a PTQ the next day.
Specific Card Discussions:
Kalonian Tusker gave me a two-drop that was pretty threatening. It can trade or better with any other common early ground creature. I had been trying to decide if I did really want all four, but I didn't trouble with GG on turn 2 as I was so green-heavy.
Boon Satyr felt pretty weak most of the time, so I decided to cut it completely. This is probably due to not just playing straight Gruul.
Dreg Mangler is one of the black-splash cards in the maindeck. I was happy enough that I wanted that I found myself wishing the fourth copy was in the deck. It plays a role similar to Boon Satyr with haste instead of flash, scavenge is better than bestow at 5 mana as you've already played the card for 3 mana and attacked some. Also, Dreg Mangler can block a little better in a pinch and can't be the target of Doom Blade or Ultimate Price.
Reaper of the Wilds never really did anything too amazing; it felt like a functional 6 drop a lot of the time - I won with a copy in my hand more often than a copy on the battlefield.
I decided to borrow and force 2 Stormbreath Dragon into the deck for the PTQ - this was probably a mistake. I hadn't really practiced with them in the deck, and if I'm going to just jam them anyway, I should've fully committed to more red mana in the deck.
This is how I remember registering the deck for the PTQ:
4 Kalonian Tusker
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Witchstalker
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Polukranos, World Eater
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Dreadbore
2 Flesh//Blood
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
5 Forest
2 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Chandra, the Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
Quick Recap:
Round 2: Lost 1-2 to Naya Pyromancer - I win game 1 without figuring out that it's actually a Pyromancer deck. I sideboard differently for game 3, but still lose a close one.
Round 3: Lost 1-2 to GW Shrout's list - I feel like I steal game 1, but lose two more grindy games - turns out Fleecemane Lion wearing Unflinching Courage is pretty good against me and swings game 3.
After starting 0-3, I know I definitely was just playing for pride and an extremely small chance to get some of my money back in packs for making top 32 at this point. The deck has more severe mana issues than I originally guessed, and I'm probably bringing into too much removal in games 2/3 against GWx instead of staying true to being the beatdown. I refocus and decide that my next loss will be time to get a headstart on the drive home.
Round 5: Win 2-1 against Esper Control - I feel like this configuration is much better against top tier decks. Esper or UW control can win games against me, but I don't feel like an underdog like when the deck did not have the black splash.
Round 6: Win 2-1 against monoblack - he has a nearly unbeatable Thoughtseize, removal, removal, threat sequence in game 1. Games 2 and 3 he dies before getting to four mana, but I think I still would've won the match even if he had a little better luck on the lands. He mentioned having Desecration Demon in hand, but I had Dreadbore in mine.
The metagame had become more what I expected to play against and my deck did what it was designed to do - I was back to 3-3.
Round 7: Lost 1-2 against monoblue devotion. During game 3, we had to call a judge over because I accidentally knocked cards off the top of my deck (my opponent was cool about it, but we wanted to handle it correctly). I was behind on board, probably got rattled, and misplayed a close game. He hit me with AEtherize three times in like a four or five turn span; it was not just a cookie cutter version. More disappointed in myself for that the early losses; I sign the slip and drop instead of playing out the remaining rounds.
Specific Card Discussions:
Witchstalker was good enough against decks that didn't include blue or black. Hexproof quickly made him my favorite Ghor-Clan Rampager into Blood target. One of my losses was to someone responding to a lethal Blood by pumping a Dreg Mangler to 5 and then exiling it with double Selesnya Charm.
Rakdos Guildgate should have either just been basics or Temple of Malice - except that's not been released yet. They help with color fixing, but I was playing a pretty aggressive deck to run over four lands that come into play tapped.
The PTQ was won by someone playing green heavy Gruul Devotion but splashing black; it was a small consolation that the winner attacked the tournament from a similar angle.
Using the results from the PTQ, I played this at FNM last night - my other Stormbreath Dragons have not arrived yet ... I also plan to incorporate 2-3 Xenagos, the Reveler basically moving closer to a Gruul Monsters build with a black splash.
4 Kalonian Tusker
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Witchstalker
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Domri Rade
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Dreadbore
2 Flesh//Blood
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
5 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Chandra, the Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
At FNM, I barely won a match against Junk Midrange deck on the back of Ghor-Clan Rampager and Blood in game 3. I then narrowly lost a match to Esper Devotion. I lost another close one to monoblue and called it a night. The silver lining was my lone Stormbreath Dragon did more work in those three matches than the other two did all tournament long the prior weekend.
Specific Card Discussions:
Scavenging Ooze and Kalonian Tusker - I might have to shave a copy of one or both of these to make room for other things. It's hard to justify cutting a two-drop for something more expensive, but sometimes the third Ooze just feels like it should be in the sideboard. On the other hand, it's easier to cast Ooze than Tusker.
Flesh//Blood - I love the possibilities of this card. However, I might have to shave it down to a single copy. Games where you draw both copies seem to be more likely to result in a loss than a win. A single copy still gives you an "oops, I win" card without risking seeing two copies in your first 10 or so cards which is generally pretty miserable even if you're using it as removal.
Dreadbore - I think three copies is actually one too many. Considering that Ghor-Clan Rampager is often pseudoremoval against other creature based decks, two copies will hopefully be enough to deal with more difficult threats or planeswalkers.
Hammer of Purphoros - I originally started working on the deck to help Hammer shine, but I think it's no longer necessary with Dreg Mangler in the deck. The potential stream of 3/3 golem tokens seems good, but I find myself activating the Hammer less and less as I tinker with the other cards in the deck. I almost took it out a couple times already.
Mistcutter Hydra - I've died against monoblue's weenie flyers with one of these in my hand. Almost starting to question, if I need to shave one of these and also find room for 2 Skylasher in my sideboard.
I have a more Stormbreath Dragon and Xenagos, the Reveler on the way. I am potentially going to be foolish and run it back at another PTQ next weekend. Here's where I am tentatively at ...
3 Kalonian Tusker
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Witchstalker
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Dreadbore
1 Flesh//Blood
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
5 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Skylasher
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Chandra, the Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
I might also try out Burning-Tree Emissary and a single Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx with some X-spells in the sideboard (Gaze of Granite, Rakdos's Return, Clan Defiance) before next weekend as well.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Arbor Colossus
3 Reaper of the Wilds
3 Sire of Insanity
2 Xenagos, God of Revels
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Domri Rade
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
Lands
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Malice
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Stomping Ground
8 Forest
This list includes key cards for Jund, Sire of Insanity is ideal versus any deck with less threatening topdecks than this one. Domri Rade and Courser of Kruphix guarantees the value of both while gaining life in the process, so that you never miss a land drop, and you usually get card advantage. Playing Xenagos and Xenagos is a combo by itself, and being that you can turn 3 into Xenagos planeswalker > domri and flip a xenagos god is pretty awesome.
This list covers every angle for Jund, except a lot of removal spells.
For that I think Polukranos can offer some removal, and the rest can overpower an opponent.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
My only contention with my list is that there are almost too many ramp cards, if you include domri/courser.
Though they do defend on the ground very well against aggro.
oops, I had a very successful showing just before the release of BNG and thought I had linked to the Jund Monsters thread I made but apparently not - meant to keep you in the loop ryansolid - I like a lot of what you're saying in the above quote.