This format has been a lot harder to put together the usual brand of midrange decks I play. I tend to favour aggressive midrange decks that 1 - 2 punch T3 and T4. These aren't aggro decks in that they don't play 1 mana 2/2's. However without the mana dorks to support it and the awkwardness of mana this is an unrealistic expectation.
Looking at the Theros spoiler 2 things became very apparent to me. Aggro would have a very hard time getting over the wall at 4. Yes there is Ghor Clan but generally this format is full of huge 4 drops. The flipside is it isn't easy to just ramp into 4's. Ramping into 4's off a 2 drop is the Farseek dilema. It's much better to go 1-3, 4 if you are applying pressure than 1,2-4. This creates this tension between early game and slamming crazy 4's and 5'.
All this would make you tend to favor slower decks that play more removal ala Jund, Esper control or even some WBR combination. Going that approach would make decks like GR ramp laughable. Their only recourse is playing a land destruction sub theme, pushing them into an overpriced tempo deck. It can work for sure.. ever play swasey's GU deck during Zendikar or even Destructive Force. The difficulty is that doesn't make for a Kessig Wolf Run or Valakut deck.
The immediate response to this awkward battle would probably to play some sort of white weenish deck. A strong linear aggro strategy with some resilience could go a long way if all it has to deal with is awkward late game decks that can't even kill quickly and have to focus too much of their time worry about each other.
When there is such a gap I tend to look for either blue tempo decks or green aggro midrange decks to fill the gap. Unfortunately as I said at the beginning the cards aren't exactly there atleast for the green. Oh the must kill 5 drops are but the most important part is the core.
As I see it there is 3 options in this realm:
1. GR based.. Gyre Sage/Burning Tree.. This was clunky and losing Boar might be too much for it now.
2. Naya good stuff.. The cards are all still there.. the ability to T2 Reckoner isn't though. It was awkward pre rotation, now it's worse. The white exile 2 mana spell also cannibalizes itself.
3. GB based.. There hasn't been nearly enough discussion here. Kibler played Junk for block but I think a lot of what he was doing is relevant.
Building a Golgari Based list
First and foremost.. the 2 cards that jump out to me in such an archetype would be Lotleth Troll and Varolz, the Scar Striped. How much harder is it to kill the troll these days. Kibler noted that these cards let you do a lot of work with little mana. I will say Varolz looks a lot worse in these days of Scavenging Ooze. But nothing is stopping you from playing ooze.
The other interesting fact is fighting with big creatures seems unusually good right now. There isn't a ton in the way of value. Yes that makes Boros Reckoner a bomb in the decks that can play it, but it means it's a lot of pure power on the board when it comes to battling (which is why removal will be overvalued). I think Domri Rade while dead to more kill target planeswalker type spells is much better here. If the format is all Tarmogoyf instead of Kitchen Finks you have more room to gain value this way.
Mana
Now all ideas start at the mana base. The scry lands are interesting. If you combine together the fact that you play cards that do a lot with little mana I think greedy mana bases might be reasonable. Especially with enough accelerants. Without the utility lands the opportunity to flood is so high. And as great as a card like Mutavault is I think 3 colors procludes it.
I think 7 accelerants is what I want to do with 24 lands. But instead of the typical Fires curve I want to hollow out the 3's and play more of a 1,2, 4, 5, 6 game. This means I sit longer at value on my earlier drops but still present a decent top since 2 cards.. Sylvan Caryatid gives a more resilient way to ramp. Even though it means the ramp might get taken out after you land your first big threat it means the top of your deck is more live. If I could just rely on Varolz I wouldn't need to do much of this but the deck needs a way to force value into the late game. One way is planeswalkers, and the other is:
The top end
Underworld Cerberus seem perfect for this deck. I was trying white decks with Archangel, but one doom blade did too much work so speak. Both these cards force damage and let you buy back the threats you played earlier. Yes the opponent gets theirs back too but if you aren't as focused on removal as them and your creatures are generally better it's a better value play for you. Kalonian Hydra is the other piece I use to make these cards devastatingly annoying to create ultimatum states. It's possible I'm a bit too much on the top end but I'm assuming the aggro decks will have to play out much different to deal with the T3 5/5's the deck puts out.
4 drops
This is the trickiest part of the deck and the piece that has kept changing for me. Jund has access to all the good 4's (other than Advent of the Wurm). Reaper of the Wilds, was my first logical go to. The truth is deathtouch doesn't matter if everything is big and investing in the protection isn't as potent as regeneration and just playing out on curve. In most formats the best 4's can hold their own, but in this format the 5's just go one step bigger fast enough to matter and all the other 4's are in the same realm. It's more like how 3 drops typically play out. Xenagos might not be good enough but the ability to get large amounts of mana quickly is worth it and rewards playing a bit land light. It also holds the board. I would have killed for Garruk Wildspeaker as I find those Satyrs mostly block.. But there isn't much else in the range that does enough. Exava suffers the 4 issue of only being a 4/4.. but it has some relevant abilities so it's reasonable. Polukranus while not amazing ends up really just being the best bang for your buck.
As it turns out Exava, Polkranus, Lotleth Troll, and Ooze all play favorably with Kalonian Hydra. While I don't think trying Exava + Hydra is a reliable plan .. when it happens it's pretty sweet. I tried other creatures like Corpsejack Menace but the pressure on 4 drops to be really good is too high. A 4/4 that doesn't do something else on it's own isn't good enough.
Deck
Removal is the part that I'm finding the most difficulty right now to balance. Gaze of Granite is insane against a good chunk of the field. Because of the awkwardness of aggro on curve and possibly token decks X=0-2 is is a very sweet spot. However against other decks it does almost nothing. I've tried playing Mortars main. However supporting the overload can be difficult. I'm not sure if the list even needs that much removal. I have toyed with Abrupt Decay and Putrefy as well. Still access to cards like Sire or Slaughter Games and Rakdos Return seems interesting out of the board. I imagine Slaughter games + Domri would probably beat most blue decks since there isn't that Restoration Angel around anymore.
This deck needs a lot more work and I imagine my numbers aren't very good. Especially balancing the 4's has been very hard. It's also quite possible that my curve is a result of just how bad the decks I've been testing against are at actually closing games.
EDIT: I've updated the list to my latest version. The curve is a lot better and it's less top heavy than before. I've started to work out reasonable sideboarding plans.
I always like your posts Ryan. I have also looked into GBr and had many of the same issues. I really like the interaction of troll and Underworld Cerberus. I also like how your deck has a lot of early creatures for your Xenagos which is a very good walker. I also think your top creatures are really, really good. I also really like how Exava works with your other creatures. It's got nice synergy.
I went with Reaper mainly for the scry ability and the defense 5 toughness can give you. It also has some nice interactions with Domri which I've enjoyed. It's very versatile for a 4 drop. I also don't use the Kalonian Hydra or Exava but have them in a GRb Fires deck that I prefer at the moment. Will keep checking to see updates to this deck.
I think the principle problem is Ruric Thar and too much ramp more I think of it. I'm going to try to curve down a bit. Like maybe:
-2 Thar
-2 Caryatid
-2 Xenagos
+4 Dreg Mangler
+2 Ghor Clan Rampager
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I spent some more time working out some of the issues with the list. Firstly the mana wasn't quite right. It kind of sucks but I need to play a guildgate I think. Having too many swamps in the opener is crippling. The extra green source is useful. The deck also curved too high main. I've incorporated that into the sideboard. The main change though was recognizing the importance of taking initiative and pushing through the opponents huge creatures. Removal isn't going to do it any better than it is for them. And I want Domri to be insane.
Even though it wasn't in my pool at pre-release and I never played against it Boon Satyr has impressed me greatly. Not as a 3 drop but as a 5 drop. A 5 drop that becomes fodder that trades with other 3 drops. Think thragtusk without the life gain. So much so that with Ghor Clan I think there is quite a bit of flexibity. So changing the approach to focus on initiative I changed the list around a lot. Basically don't give them time to get Monstrous. Just cycle through must kill and hard to kill threats. Lotleth Troll with a Boon Satyr on it is pretty good. This still has some awkwardness but I'm beginning to see how the sideboard would look I think. Not sure about Experiment One but giving it a try.
The scavenge gives you a little extra game against Supreme Verdict, and given that I do not feel you want to be BloodrushingGhor Clan Rampager often, I feel the Goliath offers you more.
Also you look quite cold to that Manabarbs variant (cannot remember the name of it for the life of me), with only Thoughtseize to interact with it.,
The scavenge gives you a little extra game against Supreme Verdict, and given that I do not feel you want to be BloodrushingGhor Clan Rampager often, I feel the Goliath offers you more.
Also you look quite cold to that Manabarbs variant (cannot remember the name of it for the life of me), with only Thoughtseize to interact with it.,
Burning Earth. Yeah mind you not as cold as a control/grindy midrange deck. Burning Earth from most decks does about as much damage as any 4 they'd play (think Hellrider etc). Like RDW etc.. But it punishes decks more that need to sit back on removal. Take the 5 damage and play something they can't beat. If Burning Earth is a thing definitely will have to be a consideration, but I'm unsure if it will be immediately.
I was considering any 4 mana 5 drop for sure. Tried Polukranus which was cute sometimes but meh as the monstrosity only helped in matchups that a big 5/5 for cheap did enough work. I've played Deadbridge before. Unfortunately it doesn't have trample which means it's only really bashing on size. I mean I'd be playing Varolz if I thought Scavenge was good. I might still, it's just that opposing Ooze makes it so much more awkward. I think Boon Satyr actually does a lot of that work without having to play cards that can be uneffective.
See Ghor Clan and Exava are relatively small but I see a lot of movement towards things like Desecration Demon. Or even Pulkranus. You can match them for sure but Ghor Clan gives you a removal spell / way to be even bigger without losing the timing. Like Dreg Mangler isn't a big 3 but it has haste. Playing 2 2's including Ghor Clan after they slam their big 4 keeps you ahead. Especially if the Dreg Mangler got in the turn you played it.. and who knows maybe the turn after.
The thing is without Value it's just size so if you can match on size and damage a turn earlier and keep up density (ie not too much removal or ramp) you come out ahead on either the one for one game or the tempo game. Any deck that relies heavily on like Read the Bones loses a turn to cast that. More on CA below.
I think the thing is not to worry about having answers too much. Decks thus far in the format that aren't pure aggro seem to have closing issues. Their playing a grindy game with only have the tools.. Good Removal check.. Resilient Threats... .. well they're big..
How about Chandra your deck hurting for card advantage it seems
I have Chandra in the sideboard. But not even sure. Truthfully Domri in this deck is better than any deck I've played Domri in probably. I mean I've played better cards with Domri last Standard, and overall better decks, but Domri feels like he does more now. The plus one is insane comparatively in the coming format. Sort of why people like Chandra so much righ tnow . And we are in a format where I think fighting is easy.. It's the battle of giant vanilla creatures. You don't have to worry about Thragtusk coming back etc or Resto flickers. Card advantage probably is needed against control but the threat density backed with a small amount of removal actually gives most midrange decks fits. It's not like their CA is great without a tempo loss. So if they are busy trying to keep you off your game it's better to just keep on pressing. Domri does enough. I think postboard attacking the opponents CA is better since it requires less investment to keep damage rolling. It's possible Rakdos' Return is actually better than even Chandra since it's so high impact. If I'm not going to play a creature I want it to just be devastating. Chandra is still very good but Sphinx's Rev will eventually catch you on any grindy game. Chandra plus Slaughter games would probably do it. I'm just not sure how much is needed. These are all options but I think a deck with 32 creatures is fine game 1 in that regard.
Consider the Read the Bones.. I mean if Domri hits the turn you play him.. To break even in a low creature high removal deck.. they need to play Read the Bones and Dreadbore or Hero's Downfall it to be even. Basically spend 2 turns worth of mana. If Domri hits twice it's done more work than that even. Domri misses of course.. his plus ability is like Scry 1. But it isn't costing you mana after the first casting and some decks with a low threat density have to really concern themselves between killing it and protecting themselves. Something to really consider if they are losing life to their lands and own spells.
Been doing more testing. As I suspected the midrange matchups are incredibly favorable. I been testing against BR and BW and BWR a ton and those high removal decks can't keep pace at all. Main deck is pretty good. One weakness is red aggro definitely. I tried higher removal counts but that didn't work. More creatures actually made the difference. However I fear this might make other aggro matchups worse. I need to test against some more blue decks. This is todays list clearly positioned more towards being anti aggro postboard:
There has been some awkardness in the mana that I've been wanting to resolve. That coupled with Lotleth Troll hasn't been as good as I wanted given a lot of decks in their fear of early aggro are packing shocks which makes it a T3 play and the 2nd black isn't guarenteed the turn I cast it. So I decided to try to fix both of those angles.
Secondly I was finding in the red aggro matchups I was diluting my deck too much. I wasn't able to close out games fast enough the way I was boarding. We were wearing ourselves down with creatures but I couldn't seem to close fast enough. I needed a sideboard plan that was less drastic. Chandra's Pheonix has been proving to be particularly annoying. But mostly I think was losing to Magma Jet and red eventually being able to draw out of flooding. The obvious answer to me is just make the main deck slight more anti aggro so the boarding didn't need so much support.
Basically Ooze is probably still the best weapon there but I need to not to have to play it early but I don't want to curve down my main deck by playing a bunch of 2's in other matchups. Losing the resilience of Troll meant finding more resilience in my 4's to lighten up the need for Nylea and in so free up room for Ooze in the board. The danger of this approach is I am generally playing more uneffective early spells against GW main. I haven't tested that matchup enough but I think I probably need another gambit against them gumming the board.
The strenght of this approach is Experiment One, Burning-Tree, Sylvan Caryatid brings everything Gyre Sage did last year a turn earlier. But given how anemic some of these cards are I have to play it in moderation.
Yeah there are some fundamental issues with the list I've been playing. It just isn't fast enough to beat control. The cards don't close enough on their own and there is too much air. There are some good elements that are worth doing but the whole hydra thing isn't. Nor is Experiment really. Basically the deck is a midrange killer already and those don't really help control or aggro matchups. Especially trying to support each. I need to test red some more, but then I'll post a list.
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I honestly dont see why you guys are playing Sylvan Caratyd. This is an aggro deck right? He doesnt attack, and most of these lists dont exceed 5 CMC. I wouldnt play him to be honest. You wouldnt even play farseek in a deck like this. You dont want to draw him off a Domri because he doesnt progress your board in the plan this deck wants.
The problem I've been finding is none of the 2 drops really do it. Trying 3 colour you aren't going to curve like mono red or white. Losing Flinthoof Boar is so devastating for Aggro of this nature with Experiment One. Might as well drop green and play Rakdos Aggro although the gap from 2-4 then becomes rather insurmountable. On the other hand there are no 4's that just win. They are fairly large but fairly vanilla. I'm accustomed to having fragile threats that die to removal but nothing on its own (other than Hydra) you untap with and you've done enough to pull the game away. So the must kill threats are insufficient and so is the aggro game. The type of removal in and the timing of standard ended up making Lotleth Troll not the best threat. Without much built in CA you need every card you draw and sac effects are too prevalent. Part of the reason Ghor Clan Rampager is a bit worse. The only good thing the list really has going for it is at 3-4. Domri is possibly the best persistent CA engine in the format. Dreg Mangler and Exava hits fast and hard. Boon Satyr is as close to value and density we have. All this would die for 8 1 mana dorks but instead we have lands that ETB tapped. Since most 4's in this format (while not just winning the game on the spot) atleast brick wall every aggro threat T3 them or a 5 is a reasonable plan in a low removal deck. Drawing Caryatid(or BoP) off the top is always a risk in this sort of timing of deck. Ironically in some matchups I find drawing both of my Dreadbores more of a liability. The problem with Caryatid is it doesn't cost one. Once you are fine with 2 mana it's harder to be disrupted is reasonable payoff for it's inability to attack. You are right about a list like these not playing Farseek, but it was never sac protection and it blanked Domri as well, nor did it ever trigger evolve. Last season Kibler actually attempted Farseek in this sort of list and it was borderline. I don't thing Caryatid is any more unreasonable. The other thing to consider is Boon Satyr is an honorary 5 drop. So the deck basically has quite a few. I just think that that range needs some tweaking as Satyr and Hydra are very different cards and fail to provide the needed redundancy.
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If playing red why not just play dragon instead of hydra?
Yeah the Dragon probably would be a better choice. Mind you the Dragon isn't fast enough either. I guess I shouldn't say fast. I'm talking the point when you swing the game. Atleast Hydra actuallly wins if it starts swinging. The problem is there is no gotcha and the life swing isn't enough. I think the deck has to embrace that it can't be fast enough and not play cards with no value over 4 CMC. Since there is no real value the only way to gain that is Boon Satyr's and Sire of Insanity/Ruric Thar type cards. There is just way way way too much removal.
The place I'm at right now is Underworld Cerberus. If Dragon isn't going to close out the game for you anyway might as well run them out of removal by providing a nearly unblockable threat. I'm fine with 4 of those and 4 Satyrs.. 4's the harder slot. I think I still like Exava enough legendary or not to play 4. It's the other 4 drop. Reaper of the Wilds and Desecration Demon seem the obvious choices. But I'm even considering crap like Liliana's Reaver given how little value there is around. The token coming in tapped probably makes it not reasonable enough but Deathtouch is uniquely good right now in that people don't want to trade their vanilla big monsters and power/toughness largely jumps from like 2/2 to 4/4+
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Black gives you lotleth, varolz, dreg, exava, and removal. Also access to some decent sb cards like thoughtseize. It may or may not be worth it. I've personally been playing golgari aggro to success. Considering red for domri/ghor clan/ dragon.
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Black gives you lotleth, varolz, dreg, exava, and removal. Also access to some decent sb cards like thoughtseize. It may or may not be worth it. I've personally been playing golgari aggro to success. Considering red for domri/ghor clan/ dragon.
That's actually what my thoughts were. Red was there Domri. I have gone back and forth between GR and GB base but it's the black threats around 4-5 I like better. GEt midgame while not terrible looking isn't doing anything that removal doesn't solve. Short of dragon you are just playing large vanilla creatures. The problem is consistently pressuring up to that point. The momentum. You come out fairly aggro and then after you lose your board you have really only dragon to force that opening at a reasonable cmc.
It's not alone. Most of these lists I've been testing and Naya share the same awkwardness. Even worse in the 3 colour decks. Reckoner is a big upside on early plays but like Naya last season it either sort of gets there or it's awkward. I could never put my finger on it but there was something uncomfortable about last seasons Naya and this feels worse. The mana is just not quite good enough. A ton of really small tempo edges to trade for powerful cards that may or may not close out the game.
A lot of different stuff going on here. I can empathize with wanting Primeval Bounty. There is this sort of lag point where it feels like you have time to really pull. I think if I go that far I've probably gone too far. In general I think you need to test the deck and get some more consistent numbers. There are a lot of splits and one ofs. It's hard to judge any sort of consistency. I'm sure this will be easier as the metagame stabilizes.
This is a reasonable start. Unfortunately you left out the most important part of the list. That 24 lands is largely what's in question. I mean enough T1 green for Mystic and Experiment along with Ooze. Enough black for T2 Troll, and possible double black to play with protection. Double red for Dragon. How important is T3 Domri and overloading Mortars? How many lands etb tapped? Clearly a need for some number if guildgates. How does that affect curving out with Experiment? The manabase in the list above wouldn't work here most likely. The curve is a bit high for 28 mana sources but considering everyone is fighting the mana except mono aggro maybe that's ok. I'm generally thinking the curves in this format might be top heavier like this in midrange lists just to battle through removal and awkward curving. In general I think this makes haste slightly better in general and highlights multicost abilities like Bestow and Monstrosity. It's just so awkward.
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I decided to brew up a jund aggro list. It feels super sweet to go Exava into Hydra. But its not the best to just play hydra, thats why they are only 2-ofs.
Tried E1, and man did he feel retarded as hell. so he was cut super early.
It feels close to pre-rotation jund aggro but losing Aristacrat hurt a lot. Like a lot a lot. Being able to curve aristacrat into thundermaw was super sick. Oh and flinthoof boar, I miss that guy.
That's actually what my thoughts were. Red was there Domri. I have gone back and forth between GR and GB base but it's the black threats around 4-5 I like better. GEt midgame while not terrible looking isn't doing anything that removal doesn't solve. Short of dragon you are just playing large vanilla creatures. The problem is consistently pressuring up to that point. The momentum. You come out fairly aggro and then after you lose your board you have really only dragon to force that opening at a reasonable cmc.
It's not alone. Most of these lists I've been testing and Naya share the same awkwardness. Even worse in the 3 colour decks. Reckoner is a big upside on early plays but like Naya last season it either sort of gets there or it's awkward. I could never put my finger on it but there was something uncomfortable about last seasons Naya and this feels worse. The mana is just not quite good enough. A ton of really small tempo edges to trade for powerful cards that may or may not close out the game.
A lot of different stuff going on here. I can empathize with wanting Primeval Bounty. There is this sort of lag point where it feels like you have time to really pull. I think if I go that far I've probably gone too far. In general I think you need to test the deck and get some more consistent numbers. There are a lot of splits and one ofs. It's hard to judge any sort of consistency. I'm sure this will be easier as the metagame stabilizes.
This is a reasonable start. Unfortunately you left out the most important part of the list. That 24 lands is largely what's in question. I mean enough T1 green for Mystic and Experiment along with Ooze. Enough black for T2 Troll, and possible double black to play with protection. Double red for Dragon. How important is T3 Domri and overloading Mortars? How many lands etb tapped? Clearly a need for some number if guildgates. How does that affect curving out with Experiment? The manabase in the list above wouldn't work here most likely. The curve is a bit high for 28 mana sources but considering everyone is fighting the mana except mono aggro maybe that's ok. I'm generally thinking the curves in this format might be top heavier like this in midrange lists just to battle through removal and awkward curving. In general I think this makes haste slightly better in general and highlights multicost abilities like Bestow and Monstrosity. It's just so awkward.
Oh dont get me wrong, I definitely know that the lands are extremely important. I just wanted to get a basic shell out. Something with enough haste creatures, and efficient threats, that would make the deck faster. I do totally agree with you though. The lands do determine a lot on how the deck will be built, and play out.
This format has been a lot harder to put together the usual brand of midrange decks I play. I tend to favour aggressive midrange decks that 1 - 2 punch T3 and T4. These aren't aggro decks in that they don't play 1 mana 2/2's. However without the mana dorks to support it and the awkwardness of mana this is an unrealistic expectation.
Looking at the Theros spoiler 2 things became very apparent to me. Aggro would have a very hard time getting over the wall at 4. Yes there is Ghor Clan but generally this format is full of huge 4 drops. The flipside is it isn't easy to just ramp into 4's. Ramping into 4's off a 2 drop is the Farseek dilema. It's much better to go 1-3, 4 if you are applying pressure than 1,2-4. This creates this tension between early game and slamming crazy 4's and 5'.
All this would make you tend to favor slower decks that play more removal ala Jund, Esper control or even some WBR combination. Going that approach would make decks like GR ramp laughable. Their only recourse is playing a land destruction sub theme, pushing them into an overpriced tempo deck. It can work for sure.. ever play swasey's GU deck during Zendikar or even Destructive Force. The difficulty is that doesn't make for a Kessig Wolf Run or Valakut deck.
The immediate response to this awkward battle would probably to play some sort of white weenish deck. A strong linear aggro strategy with some resilience could go a long way if all it has to deal with is awkward late game decks that can't even kill quickly and have to focus too much of their time worry about each other.
When there is such a gap I tend to look for either blue tempo decks or green aggro midrange decks to fill the gap. Unfortunately as I said at the beginning the cards aren't exactly there atleast for the green. Oh the must kill 5 drops are but the most important part is the core.
As I see it there is 3 options in this realm:
1. GR based.. Gyre Sage/Burning Tree.. This was clunky and losing Boar might be too much for it now.
2. Naya good stuff.. The cards are all still there.. the ability to T2 Reckoner isn't though. It was awkward pre rotation, now it's worse. The white exile 2 mana spell also cannibalizes itself.
3. GB based.. There hasn't been nearly enough discussion here. Kibler played Junk for block but I think a lot of what he was doing is relevant.
Building a Golgari Based list
First and foremost.. the 2 cards that jump out to me in such an archetype would be Lotleth Troll and Varolz, the Scar Striped. How much harder is it to kill the troll these days. Kibler noted that these cards let you do a lot of work with little mana. I will say Varolz looks a lot worse in these days of Scavenging Ooze. But nothing is stopping you from playing ooze.
The other interesting fact is fighting with big creatures seems unusually good right now. There isn't a ton in the way of value. Yes that makes Boros Reckoner a bomb in the decks that can play it, but it means it's a lot of pure power on the board when it comes to battling (which is why removal will be overvalued). I think Domri Rade while dead to more kill target planeswalker type spells is much better here. If the format is all Tarmogoyf instead of Kitchen Finks you have more room to gain value this way.
Mana
Now all ideas start at the mana base. The scry lands are interesting. If you combine together the fact that you play cards that do a lot with little mana I think greedy mana bases might be reasonable. Especially with enough accelerants. Without the utility lands the opportunity to flood is so high. And as great as a card like Mutavault is I think 3 colors procludes it.
I think 7 accelerants is what I want to do with 24 lands. But instead of the typical Fires curve I want to hollow out the 3's and play more of a 1,2, 4, 5, 6 game. This means I sit longer at value on my earlier drops but still present a decent top since 2 cards.. Sylvan Caryatid gives a more resilient way to ramp. Even though it means the ramp might get taken out after you land your first big threat it means the top of your deck is more live. If I could just rely on Varolz I wouldn't need to do much of this but the deck needs a way to force value into the late game. One way is planeswalkers, and the other is:
The top end
Underworld Cerberus seem perfect for this deck. I was trying white decks with Archangel, but one doom blade did too much work so speak. Both these cards force damage and let you buy back the threats you played earlier. Yes the opponent gets theirs back too but if you aren't as focused on removal as them and your creatures are generally better it's a better value play for you. Kalonian Hydra is the other piece I use to make these cards devastatingly annoying to create ultimatum states. It's possible I'm a bit too much on the top end but I'm assuming the aggro decks will have to play out much different to deal with the T3 5/5's the deck puts out.
4 drops
This is the trickiest part of the deck and the piece that has kept changing for me. Jund has access to all the good 4's (other than Advent of the Wurm). Reaper of the Wilds, was my first logical go to. The truth is deathtouch doesn't matter if everything is big and investing in the protection isn't as potent as regeneration and just playing out on curve. In most formats the best 4's can hold their own, but in this format the 5's just go one step bigger fast enough to matter and all the other 4's are in the same realm. It's more like how 3 drops typically play out. Xenagos might not be good enough but the ability to get large amounts of mana quickly is worth it and rewards playing a bit land light. It also holds the board. I would have killed for Garruk Wildspeaker as I find those Satyrs mostly block.. But there isn't much else in the range that does enough. Exava suffers the 4 issue of only being a 4/4.. but it has some relevant abilities so it's reasonable. Polukranus while not amazing ends up really just being the best bang for your buck.
As it turns out Exava, Polkranus, Lotleth Troll, and Ooze all play favorably with Kalonian Hydra. While I don't think trying Exava + Hydra is a reliable plan .. when it happens it's pretty sweet. I tried other creatures like Corpsejack Menace but the pressure on 4 drops to be really good is too high. A 4/4 that doesn't do something else on it's own isn't good enough.
Deck
Removal is the part that I'm finding the most difficulty right now to balance. Gaze of Granite is insane against a good chunk of the field. Because of the awkwardness of aggro on curve and possibly token decks X=0-2 is is a very sweet spot. However against other decks it does almost nothing. I've tried playing Mortars main. However supporting the overload can be difficult. I'm not sure if the list even needs that much removal. I have toyed with Abrupt Decay and Putrefy as well. Still access to cards like Sire or Slaughter Games and Rakdos Return seems interesting out of the board. I imagine Slaughter games + Domri would probably beat most blue decks since there isn't that Restoration Angel around anymore.
Enough chatter..
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Forest
3 Swamp
Creatures(30):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Boon Satyr
4 Exava Blood Witch
2 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Underworld Cerberus
2 Kalonian Hydra
2 Dreadbore
4 Domri Rade
3 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Flames of Firebrand
1 Gaze of Granite
3 Gift of Orzhova
2 Witchstalker
2 Sire of Insanity
This deck needs a lot more work and I imagine my numbers aren't very good. Especially balancing the 4's has been very hard. It's also quite possible that my curve is a result of just how bad the decks I've been testing against are at actually closing games.
EDIT: I've updated the list to my latest version. The curve is a lot better and it's less top heavy than before. I've started to work out reasonable sideboarding plans.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I went with Reaper mainly for the scry ability and the defense 5 toughness can give you. It also has some nice interactions with Domri which I've enjoyed. It's very versatile for a 4 drop. I also don't use the Kalonian Hydra or Exava but have them in a GRb Fires deck that I prefer at the moment. Will keep checking to see updates to this deck.
-2 Thar
-2 Caryatid
-2 Xenagos
+4 Dreg Mangler
+2 Ghor Clan Rampager
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Even though it wasn't in my pool at pre-release and I never played against it Boon Satyr has impressed me greatly. Not as a 3 drop but as a 5 drop. A 5 drop that becomes fodder that trades with other 3 drops. Think thragtusk without the life gain. So much so that with Ghor Clan I think there is quite a bit of flexibity. So changing the approach to focus on initiative I changed the list around a lot. Basically don't give them time to get Monstrous. Just cycle through must kill and hard to kill threats. Lotleth Troll with a Boon Satyr on it is pretty good. This still has some awkwardness but I'm beginning to see how the sideboard would look I think. Not sure about Experiment One but giving it a try.
Here's my list for today:
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Golgari Guildgate
2 Forest
4 Swamp
Creatures(32):
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Experiment One
4 Lotleth Troll
2 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Boon Satyr
3 Exava, Blood Witch
3 Ghor Clan Rampager
4 Kalonian Hydra
2 Dreadbore
3 Domri Rade
4 Thoughtseize
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Gaze of Granite
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Underworld Cerberus
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
The scavenge gives you a little extra game against Supreme Verdict, and given that I do not feel you want to be BloodrushingGhor Clan Rampager often, I feel the Goliath offers you more.
Also you look quite cold to that Manabarbs variant (cannot remember the name of it for the life of me), with only Thoughtseize to interact with it.,
Burning Earth. Yeah mind you not as cold as a control/grindy midrange deck. Burning Earth from most decks does about as much damage as any 4 they'd play (think Hellrider etc). Like RDW etc.. But it punishes decks more that need to sit back on removal. Take the 5 damage and play something they can't beat. If Burning Earth is a thing definitely will have to be a consideration, but I'm unsure if it will be immediately.
I was considering any 4 mana 5 drop for sure. Tried Polukranus which was cute sometimes but meh as the monstrosity only helped in matchups that a big 5/5 for cheap did enough work. I've played Deadbridge before. Unfortunately it doesn't have trample which means it's only really bashing on size. I mean I'd be playing Varolz if I thought Scavenge was good. I might still, it's just that opposing Ooze makes it so much more awkward. I think Boon Satyr actually does a lot of that work without having to play cards that can be uneffective.
See Ghor Clan and Exava are relatively small but I see a lot of movement towards things like Desecration Demon. Or even Pulkranus. You can match them for sure but Ghor Clan gives you a removal spell / way to be even bigger without losing the timing. Like Dreg Mangler isn't a big 3 but it has haste. Playing 2 2's including Ghor Clan after they slam their big 4 keeps you ahead. Especially if the Dreg Mangler got in the turn you played it.. and who knows maybe the turn after.
The thing is without Value it's just size so if you can match on size and damage a turn earlier and keep up density (ie not too much removal or ramp) you come out ahead on either the one for one game or the tempo game. Any deck that relies heavily on like Read the Bones loses a turn to cast that. More on CA below.
I think the thing is not to worry about having answers too much. Decks thus far in the format that aren't pure aggro seem to have closing issues. Their playing a grindy game with only have the tools.. Good Removal check.. Resilient Threats... .. well they're big..
I have Chandra in the sideboard. But not even sure. Truthfully Domri in this deck is better than any deck I've played Domri in probably. I mean I've played better cards with Domri last Standard, and overall better decks, but Domri feels like he does more now. The plus one is insane comparatively in the coming format. Sort of why people like Chandra so much righ tnow . And we are in a format where I think fighting is easy.. It's the battle of giant vanilla creatures. You don't have to worry about Thragtusk coming back etc or Resto flickers. Card advantage probably is needed against control but the threat density backed with a small amount of removal actually gives most midrange decks fits. It's not like their CA is great without a tempo loss. So if they are busy trying to keep you off your game it's better to just keep on pressing. Domri does enough. I think postboard attacking the opponents CA is better since it requires less investment to keep damage rolling. It's possible Rakdos' Return is actually better than even Chandra since it's so high impact. If I'm not going to play a creature I want it to just be devastating. Chandra is still very good but Sphinx's Rev will eventually catch you on any grindy game. Chandra plus Slaughter games would probably do it. I'm just not sure how much is needed. These are all options but I think a deck with 32 creatures is fine game 1 in that regard.
Consider the Read the Bones.. I mean if Domri hits the turn you play him.. To break even in a low creature high removal deck.. they need to play Read the Bones and Dreadbore or Hero's Downfall it to be even. Basically spend 2 turns worth of mana. If Domri hits twice it's done more work than that even. Domri misses of course.. his plus ability is like Scry 1. But it isn't costing you mana after the first casting and some decks with a low threat density have to really concern themselves between killing it and protecting themselves. Something to really consider if they are losing life to their lands and own spells.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I really do love it. 2 mainboard rakdos return, 2 dreadbore, and 1 vraska mainboard. The deck has some versatility ill say the least
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Golgari Guildgate
2 Forest
4 Swamp
Creatures(32):
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Experiment One
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Boon Satyr
3 Exava, Blood Witch
3 Ghor Clan Rampager
4 Kalonian Hydra
2 Dreadbore
3 Domri Rade
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Nylea's Disciple
2 Underworld Cerberus
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Secondly I was finding in the red aggro matchups I was diluting my deck too much. I wasn't able to close out games fast enough the way I was boarding. We were wearing ourselves down with creatures but I couldn't seem to close fast enough. I needed a sideboard plan that was less drastic. Chandra's Pheonix has been proving to be particularly annoying. But mostly I think was losing to Magma Jet and red eventually being able to draw out of flooding. The obvious answer to me is just make the main deck slight more anti aggro so the boarding didn't need so much support.
Basically Ooze is probably still the best weapon there but I need to not to have to play it early but I don't want to curve down my main deck by playing a bunch of 2's in other matchups. Losing the resilience of Troll meant finding more resilience in my 4's to lighten up the need for Nylea and in so free up room for Ooze in the board. The danger of this approach is I am generally playing more uneffective early spells against GW main. I haven't tested that matchup enough but I think I probably need another gambit against them gumming the board.
The strenght of this approach is Experiment One, Burning-Tree, Sylvan Caryatid brings everything Gyre Sage did last year a turn earlier. But given how anemic some of these cards are I have to play it in moderation.
Here's a list:
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Forest
3 Swamp
Creatures(32):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Experiment One
3 Burning Tree Emissary
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Boon Satyr
3 Exava, Blood Witch
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Ghor Clan Rampager
4 Kalonian Hydra
2 Dreadbore
3 Domri Rade
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Rakdos's Return
3 Nylea's Disciple
2 Underworld Cerberus
I'm not sure about the Abrupt Decays and the 3rd Nylea I think they could be something else.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I will post results when i have them, and will post deck this week before friday.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Sig by DarkNightCavalier @ Heroes of the Plane Studios
Yeah the Dragon probably would be a better choice. Mind you the Dragon isn't fast enough either. I guess I shouldn't say fast. I'm talking the point when you swing the game. Atleast Hydra actuallly wins if it starts swinging. The problem is there is no gotcha and the life swing isn't enough. I think the deck has to embrace that it can't be fast enough and not play cards with no value over 4 CMC. Since there is no real value the only way to gain that is Boon Satyr's and Sire of Insanity/Ruric Thar type cards. There is just way way way too much removal.
The place I'm at right now is Underworld Cerberus. If Dragon isn't going to close out the game for you anyway might as well run them out of removal by providing a nearly unblockable threat. I'm fine with 4 of those and 4 Satyrs.. 4's the harder slot. I think I still like Exava enough legendary or not to play 4. It's the other 4 drop. Reaper of the Wilds and Desecration Demon seem the obvious choices. But I'm even considering crap like Liliana's Reaver given how little value there is around. The token coming in tapped probably makes it not reasonable enough but Deathtouch is uniquely good right now in that people don't want to trade their vanilla big monsters and power/toughness largely jumps from like 2/2 to 4/4+
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Also, what does this have over playing naya? Which has a much more aggresive curve.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
4 Blood Crypt
3 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Zhur-Taa Druid
3 Lotleth Troll
2 Dreg Mangler
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
2 Ember Swallower
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Underworld Cerberus
1 Shadowborn Demon
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Domri Rade
2 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Primeval Bounty
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Sig by DarkNightCavalier @ Heroes of the Plane Studios
I was just getting ready to post the same thing. Stormbreath Dragon should be in these decks for sure.
I think a list should look a little like this:
4 Experiment One
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Lotleth Troll
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Exava Blood Witch
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Ghor Clan Rampager
2 Savenging Ooze
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dreadbore
4 Domri Rade
Lands
24 lands.
That's actually what my thoughts were. Red was there Domri. I have gone back and forth between GR and GB base but it's the black threats around 4-5 I like better. GEt midgame while not terrible looking isn't doing anything that removal doesn't solve. Short of dragon you are just playing large vanilla creatures. The problem is consistently pressuring up to that point. The momentum. You come out fairly aggro and then after you lose your board you have really only dragon to force that opening at a reasonable cmc.
It's not alone. Most of these lists I've been testing and Naya share the same awkwardness. Even worse in the 3 colour decks. Reckoner is a big upside on early plays but like Naya last season it either sort of gets there or it's awkward. I could never put my finger on it but there was something uncomfortable about last seasons Naya and this feels worse. The mana is just not quite good enough. A ton of really small tempo edges to trade for powerful cards that may or may not close out the game.
A lot of different stuff going on here. I can empathize with wanting Primeval Bounty. There is this sort of lag point where it feels like you have time to really pull. I think if I go that far I've probably gone too far. In general I think you need to test the deck and get some more consistent numbers. There are a lot of splits and one ofs. It's hard to judge any sort of consistency. I'm sure this will be easier as the metagame stabilizes.
This is a reasonable start. Unfortunately you left out the most important part of the list. That 24 lands is largely what's in question. I mean enough T1 green for Mystic and Experiment along with Ooze. Enough black for T2 Troll, and possible double black to play with protection. Double red for Dragon. How important is T3 Domri and overloading Mortars? How many lands etb tapped? Clearly a need for some number if guildgates. How does that affect curving out with Experiment? The manabase in the list above wouldn't work here most likely. The curve is a bit high for 28 mana sources but considering everyone is fighting the mana except mono aggro maybe that's ok. I'm generally thinking the curves in this format might be top heavier like this in midrange lists just to battle through removal and awkward curving. In general I think this makes haste slightly better in general and highlights multicost abilities like Bestow and Monstrosity. It's just so awkward.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Lotleth Troll
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Kalonian Hydra
4 Domri Rade
2 Dreadbore
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
I decided to brew up a jund aggro list. It feels super sweet to go Exava into Hydra. But its not the best to just play hydra, thats why they are only 2-ofs.
Tried E1, and man did he feel retarded as hell. so he was cut super early.
It feels close to pre-rotation jund aggro but losing Aristacrat hurt a lot. Like a lot a lot. Being able to curve aristacrat into thundermaw was super sick. Oh and flinthoof boar, I miss that guy.
Standard:RWUJeskai WinsRWU
Modern:GWBMelira PodGWB
Legacy:WDeath & TaxesW
Oh dont get me wrong, I definitely know that the lands are extremely important. I just wanted to get a basic shell out. Something with enough haste creatures, and efficient threats, that would make the deck faster. I do totally agree with you though. The lands do determine a lot on how the deck will be built, and play out.
4 lotleth troll
3 scavenging ooze
4 dreg mangler
4 boon satyr
4 ghor-clan rampager
2 exava, rakdos blood witch
4 stormbreath dragon
2 putrfy
2 mizzium mortars
4 stomping ground
4 overgrown tomb
4 blood crypt
4 temple of abandon
2 rakdos guildgate
2 forest
2 swamp
1 mountain
Might need manabase rework. Would consider Varolz over Boon Satyr because of the mana intensity of the satyr.
Sig by DarkNightCavalier @ Heroes of the Plane Studios
I dont like Putrefy, I would play Dreadbore over it probably. Other than that looks fairly solid. I would like to see experiment one too though.