Wasn't sure if I should post here or in the W/x Heroic thread, but I guess it doesn't really matter. I'm running a Boros list currently and have a great record; just won my 5th 8-man in a row since finishing my build 2 days ago.
The deck is incredibly explosive, with a surprising amount of mid-game potential with all the scry packed in. I was originally running W/U, with Battlewise Hoplite (a great card in heroic), Mizzium Skins and more value from Brave the Elements. However I changed it to W/R for better mana and more ways to just "get there", as opposed to more tempo cards.
For others looking to run a Heroic deck, I can't stress how important it is to run a large amount of 1-drops, a low land count and ZERO 3-drops. This deck wants to kill a quickly as possible, as efficiently as possible. This also means playing around wraths, removal etc. (even with Gods Willing). the problem I've found with cards above 2cmc is that not only do we not WANT to draw 3 lands until turn 5, maybe 6 or so (if we ever even need to), but we'd also want to play our 3 cmc heroic creatures as 4-drops most of the time anyway, to capitalize on their abilities as well as protect them. I've also tested with B/W heroic, with Boon of Erebos, Thoughtseize, Orzhov Charm, and Agent of the Fates...and Agent, at least, simple does not work.
With that said, so far there aren't many changes I would make to my Boros list. The 1-drop slot is fixed as far as creatures go imo (the hawks/familiars are there just for their evasion, and running a higher creature count than my original 16 makes my opponent's TS less back breaking on t1). The Dragon Mantles, amusingly, do literally everything I want from a card; they cantrip for 1 mana, the pump Etheral Armor for 1 mana, the trigger Heroic for 1 mana, AND provide a damage boost with Firebreathing that doesn't force me to overextend. I'm still not sure if I want 4 or not, I'll probably end up cutting 1 for a 4th Madcap Skill in the main, but for now it's been working fine.
Another funny card I'm running is Hopeful Eidolon, but this card is a HOUSE. Since I'm running Ethereal Armor, the fact that Eidolon himself is an enchantment is key. It mean that t1 Eidolon, t2 Ethereal armor (if you're fighting aggro, otherwise you'd want to start with a different 1-drop) gives you a 3/3 first strike lifelinker immediately. Even just playing him when you have another creature with Ethereal Armor gives a damage boost! And of course, he bestows for 4 mana (the cheapest bestow cost), pumping Armor, granting lifelink, and triggering Heroic. I highly recommend playing both him and Ethereal Armor in any W/x version.
My SB is still a work in progress, but I know I'm keeping the Skullcracks and the Pacifisms at the very least. Pretty much everything else there could be changed.
Hopefully this deck list inspires some people; let me know what you think!
Could you share that in the budget subforum? Interesting list.
Everyone wants to break heroic, this is a good list for it me thinks.
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The red mage lives by the variance and dies by the variance. May the variance be with you, always.
After my last post, I actually did test Chained to the Rocks in the SB as a 3-of. It was awful; playing only 9 mountains, I either never drew it when I needed it, or it was a dead card in my hand. Potentially very good, not so much in practice.
Legion Loyalist would really only work if I were playing a higher creature count. When I build up a big creature, he's usually able to swing through regardless because of Gods Willing/Madcap Skills. I have thought about him, because his haste makes him much better later on than my other 1-drops, but I dunno. So far I think I'd much rather have more 1-drops with evasion.
BW is a relatively tough matchup, same with BWR. I've lost to it several times since just yesterday (shows how much I've been playing lol), and I do think some tweaks are in order. Mono B is usually fine, it's usually that W gives them access to more life gain in Obzedat and Blood Baron, and they just pack more removal. Skullcrack isn't that great in those matchups because most of their lifegain isn't a "one-shot" effect like Sphinx's Rev. Not sure what changes I'll make, but I'll be giving it more thought!
I think that boros is probably the most aggressive version of the deck. I especially like the thought of playing young pyromancer along with all of the enablers and martial glory seems very good in a heroic deck to me.
My boros list would probably look something like this:
It seems a bit muddled for an aggro deck, but I've found it works splendidly in practice. It has trouble against the G/W aggro deck but still plays 50/50. It destroys other aggro decks and most midrange decks pretty reliably. I don't have a lot of experience against high tier control decks but I imagine it will struggle a little pre-sideboard and then do very well post.
I should stress that the deck is generally trying only to put out one to two creatures and then focus on pumping them. It doesn't run out a lot and try and slam down for the win, but rather keeps spares in hand for obfuscation's sake. One uncontested hero is typically enough to finish a game in two to three turns, or at least make that outcome inevitable.
Hey again all,
So that tournament I was in did not go well, 1-2 drop I'm not gonna blame it on luck really, it just wasn't my day for it I guess.
After that, I lost a few 8-mans (which was a first for the deck), but since then it's been going much better once again.
For reference, my deck WAS Boros at the time... Since then, I've moved to full WBR (Dega). At first this seemed crazy to me, like the mana would be god awful, but I ended up building the mana base correctly. I realized that White-heavy dega was the only 3c combo that had perfect virtually perfect mana; that is, 8 WR duals, 8 WB duals, with the remainder filled in by BR shocks. And I'm still not sure if Black is necessary, OR the best way to go, but it's been running even better than before.
Turns out I don't even want Thoughtseize... I've played with it, and even when I've drawn it I don't really want to cast it, as it does nothing really to synergize with my deck, so I'd rather just have more targeted protection spells and the like.
The Deviant Glees have been great. I've been wanting something to replace Dragon Mantle, and while Glee isn't a cantrip, it's a better pump aura spell that gives trample. Very relevant.
The rest of the deck is intact, except for that I took out the 2 Suntail hawks; I decided I really didn't need 18 creatures.
The charms are where it gets interesting. Orzhov charms have been great as simple kill spells, but don't forget they can also save a guy AND all his auras from removal (and you can then replay said auras on a different creature it that helps you get in). Plus, they can also return any of the 1-drops from graveyard to play, at instant speed, for a surprise creature!
The Rakdos charms are in for mono-U, and the Seismic Stomps are my tech against that as well as G/R Monsters Won a few games off them, not amazing so far but they're staying for now.
It definitely plays a little riskier/hit-or-miss than most decks in the format as it really depends on getting all three pillars (lands, heroes, heroic enablers) or else it's pretty useless. Esper control and other removal heavy decks can wreck it pretty hard without a well timed Gods Willing. Still it can easily be fast enough to kill a control deck if they don't kill your creatures from the start as it can out race a Verdict pretty easily on the play. Often times in game one, you can keep the creatures unthreatening enough so that they tap out to grow their board position and boom those 1/1's are now dealing 15+ damage ftw. The real key in the control matchup is stay explosive on the play and in game one and then stay consistent with must-kill threats post-board (especially on the draw) dealing 2-5 damage a turn and keeping them on the defensive instead of banking on the explosive 15+ damage turn.
Against creature based decks, the deck really sings. On the play and sometimes even on the draw, you can race them and keep them on the defensive, forcing them to block into your combat tricks, where even bigger creatures like Desecration DemonPolukranos, World Eater can easily die to a giant, often first-striking, roided out one drop. Without removal, the enchantments really become insane, especially the turn two Madcap Skills which if unchecked can out race pretty much anything.
I'm still not entirely sure with the sideboard as I want to really improve the control/removal-heavy matchup post-board. I just put in the Braves (with the rise of devotion, specially mono-blue), so I don't know how those with work out yet, but the charms have been a nice help, although I've been a little underwhelmed with Mindsparker. Against creature decks, Pit Fight is just too fun as it triggers heroic while killing a creature. There are few things better than attacking with an innocent 1/2 Favored Hoplite, having them block with a 4/4 (Kalonian Hydra for example) and then playing Pit Fight, killing their creature and saving yours while also making it bigger.
Is there a reason no one is playing Nivmagus Elemental? Its a 1 drop and since the spell doesn't have to resolve for heroic to go off you can get in some good beats early on. Bioshift loves this guy!
Is there a reason no one is playing Nivmagus Elemental? Its a 1 drop and since the spell doesn't have to resolve for heroic to go off you can get in some good beats early on. Bioshift loves this guy!
basically after playing with the deck a bunch (mostly testing in my playgroup and playing on MWS) I think that this the heroic direction of weenie aggro is just strictly worse than what the linear aggro decks are doing. Things just have to line up right for heroic to actually work correctly and if they don't, then you just kind of flounder and die in the water. it's a very glass-cannon type of approach.
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Big thanks to DarkNightCavalier from heroes of the planes studios for the sig!
Current list in playtesting, more aggro, a little less Heroic focus but can still pull out some fast wins with the targets on the fabled hero, working on the sideboard now, with removal to match, but I might just fill it with some more answers to removal
Here's a version that tops off at 2 mana, with the exception of Heliod in the sideboard to answer the control matchup. The lack of lands is to accommodate this. At the moment, the deck has 4-2'd and 5-0'd our recent FNM, and Top 4'd a different event twice.
Seems solid, reminiscent of the hexproof decks in some ways. So I can't help but wonder, is this a deck that dies the same way? I'm supremely leary of being serious about a deck that appears to lose to any of the tier 1 decks available.
This "LOOKS" like something that would scoop to U/W, and esper, which are pretty popular where I'm at. Gods willing and boros charm seem like they might help quite a bit but I'm not sure that where anyone wants to be against Revelation.dec
I've been looking for ways to take heat off the key components of the deck and to really have too many options for my opponent to choose from before going for the kill.
Bioshift seems like a fantastic example of a do-nothing card. So you moved some counters... your overall power/toughness of the board has changed by nothing. Being able to target two things is cool and all, but I feel like you'd be better off using Triton Tactics to get the christmasland 2-for-1 during combat, or just using Warrior's Lesson to draw two cards. Those both gives actual effects besides trigger heroic. Bioshift is just horrible, and is the closest to a do-nothing card as you can get.
Why would I want to use this deck over a more established aggro deck, like GW or Mono-Blue Devotion? Is it more resilient? Explosive? Consistent? Is it well-positioned in the metagame? What are the matchups like? Why would I want to take this deck to a tournament over another archetype? Sell me on this deck. Make me want to grind with it at FNM, or bring it to an open. Otherwise it doesn't belong in the competitive sub.
I agree with all of this and this is the comment on this thread that seems to belong in the Competitive Forum. Well said on all counts, Barrel Roll.
Ok, first of all there are some things that have been said here which will never be true in even a semi-competitive FNM. Let's do a few quick ones...
* Bioshift- Bad. There are so many wonderful ways we can spend our mana more reliably. Yes, it CAN work. I'd even like it to. But how reliable is this in our meta? How often does it help you win if you arent already winning? This is a win more card at best.
* Artisan of forms- A card that is totally worthless by itself and against a control opponent. Bulky bulk rare is bulk. Fun idea for casual though!
*Take- This card requires 3 counters on a creature in order to be better than divination... and then it makes your guy small again. This does not even boarder on the country adjacent to Competitive-ania. It stings me a bit that it even got mentioned without being laughed at.
* Most of you are using too many enablers and not enough creatures. It will result in far less consistent usable draws.
With the addition of BNG many things have changed.
*We now have up to 12 dual lands to use (I wouldn't use more than 6 Temples/Guild Gates). There's no longer any reason to run islands. This makes the mana that much easier to work with.
I'm pondering assembling my own primer for a competitive W/U Heroic deck that's updated with BNG. My take on the deck is different enough from what is in this thread that it may well be justified.
I'm very surprised no one is running counter magic here. I run 4x Swan Song and 2-3x Negate. The cheap counter magic helps stop board clears/removal and makes our threats even nastier.
Phalanx Leader isn't good enough. He's perfectly fine in a White Weenie deck, but running a heroic deck ideally all of our creatures should have heroic triggers on them. Couple that with a 1/1 body and WW cost makes him rather weak. Run Favored Hoplite instead, 1/2 body and prevent all dmg done this turn stops Anger of the Gods, and combat damage. Much stronger pick IMO. Hoplite can also be cast turn 1, setting up a nice turn 2 Hidden Strings. Battlewise Hoplite also is a stronger pick, as he has a 2/2 body and the ability to scry, filtering your draws. Phalanx Leader feels like a compliment to a non-heroic deck, not a staple of a Heroic deck.
I also agree with the "Bioshift is a do nothing card" statement. It triggers two heroic triggers.... so what? I'd rather run Mizzium Skins and protect my creatures while buffing their toughness, or run Triton Tactics for the best "GOTYA!" moment you could ask for. Triton Tactics also helps vs Anger of the Gods, or Mizzium Mortar. Bioshift I could see being used as a kill-con, but it's a risky one at that. Here let me move all my counters to the unblocked guy for lethal.... only to have my opponent remove him in response.
Fabled Hero does nothing for a couple turns. What? Cipher Hidden Strings on him, see what happens(If he hits the player you cast two copies). Even with 0 buffs he's 4 dmg to the face. Fabled Hero is the absolute hands down best card we have to work with. Dead weight is the last way I would describe this staple of our deck.
Artisan of Forms is great for catching up to your opponent... but we should be in control of the early game, and don't really care about Desecration Demon. Our dudes will be bigger, and we have more combat tricks.
Surprised Ordeal of Thassa isn't mentioned here. If you cast him on an non-summoning sickened creature, you usually get 2 counters and 2 draws for 1U. Extremely strong card, and has been doing work for my playtesting.
To the man who asked why is this positioned well in the meta? Well.... Because the keyword Heroic is printed all over Theros/Born of the Gods. When Ravnica rotates, guess who will reign supreme? This deck is also strong due to its creatures being near unkillable, giant threats, with counter magic/combat tricks/hexproof to keep them alive. This is a tempo/mid range deck with enough fuel to control the game.
So it was a very hastily put together deck as I wanted to try something different to my usual Rakdos deck.
My thoughts in no particular order:
Akroan Crusader is nice - but underwhelming. Without hexproof I don't want to load too many enchantments on one guy.
Evasion is good - flying Familiars do work. I'd probably want more of that.
Madcap Skills has the same issues as it does in the Rakdos aggro list - if you don't drop it turn 2 it's pretty underwhelming.
Dragon Mantle is bad. This deck never really has the red mana to pump. That said it is the only draw spell - which is desperately needed.
Oh, and Scry is good.
Hopeful Eidolon followed with Ethereal Armor is a real thing.
This makes me think that Nyxborn Rollicker could be useful (over Crusader).
I never saw Phalanx Leader once - so I have no idea whether I liked it or not
That would leave only Hoplite (and Phalanx Leader in my list) as Heroic enablers, that does change things though (since Rollicker is good because of Heroic)
This deck desperately needs an alpha strike. Gods willing is about as good as it gets but only pushes through one. Too many losses from my opponent stabilising and me sitting with a bunch of 1/1's and no hand.
Finished 1-2 with my losses both being 2-1 (Rakdos aggro and MonoU, close games so not going to suggest the deck is a complete failure just yet).
Hey everyone, new to Salvation but i"m always on here looking at lists so I thought i would make a comment of my own here. First off i want to thank Strebbs for his initial RW heroic suicide list (that's what me and my playgroup have called it) for the deck idea. I have made some intial tweaks to the intial list he made but the core of the deck is his for sure. anyways here is the deck list I went 5-1 and 5-0 at my last two FNM's taking 2nd and 1st respectively. BTW they are 40-60 person events with all good players and decks...
A few Things:
1) The deck is extremely powerful, dealing 5 damage on turn 2 in a veriety of ways such as t1 crusader/hoplite + t2 madcap skills/titans strength.
2)I felt the deck needed a little more umph in the late game and phalanx leader provides that, either pumping a whole team of crusader tokens or just as another threat if they manage to kill him.
3) anax and cymede is a house, especially after they have wasted their first few removal spells, with any form of enchantment he just sits there and ruins combat for the opponent.
4) great mono u matchup, great GW matchup, great Gr devotion matchup. 50/50 vs mono black devotion and RW devotion. bad matchup (at least game 1) vs. control
Also wanted to mention that the key to this deck is to not overextend your buffs on one guy unless you have to, balance the power of your enchantments and buffs is the key here.
And last, for BNG i'm currently testing out Eidolon of countless battles for the anax and cymede and nyxborn rollicker for the eidolons. so far they have been working out great but i still think the deck is missing just one more tweak somewhere.
But yeah this deck is VERY legit and i hope more people start to play it and comment on it, thanks!
I have beaten MBD plenty of times. sometimes they get the perfect removal suite, sometimes i get the perfect curve on them with protection. 50/50
same for orzhov midrange, although they are a little more difficult because of the MB blood baron. the crusader swarm plan is optimal vs them. also mortars in the board is key. if that deck is in your meta in large numbers put 4 mortars in the board and maybe a renounce the guild or 2
Control is slightly in their favor simply due to the 14 md removal (verdict, charm, sphere and 2 last breath). sometimes they curve perfectly from charm to sphere to verdict, other times they stumble on scry lands/useless early cards like dissolve and revelation and I stomp their face on t4.
those are all the more difficult matchups though. mono white, mono u, mono g devotion and GW aggro are all in your favor in my testing/tournament play due to their lack of removal for the early beatings. mono u In my opinion is the easiest of these also
And last, for BNG i'm currently testing out Eidolon of countless battles for the anax and cymede and nyxborn rollicker for the eidolons. so far they have been working out great but i still think the deck is missing just one more tweak somewhere.
But yeah this deck is VERY legit and i hope more people start to play it and comment on it, thanks!
What's your view on Dragon Mantle? Are you using it for anything other than a draw spell?
MBC: -4 madcap skills, -3 mantle, +3 chained to the rocks, +4 skullcrack. madcap skills rarely gets in more then 3 dmg due to their heavy removal and being able to neutralize a grey merchant when they need life or a whip trigger is huge, and chained takes care of initial blockers such as specter when they are behind, also getting a pack rat early or a desperation play of desc demon is always welcome.
Mono u: -3 dragon mantle, +3 chained to the rocks: this match up is great. their lack of removal leaves them with one option, slam a master of waves for board control. if you save a chain for the master I haven't lost to them yet in a 2/3
Control: -4 madcap skills, + 4 skull crack, -1 chained, plus 1 flames of the firebrand. i haven't found the tech to beat them yet, I just know mantle is good vs them for not losing CA and that the pump on a guy late game is critical. flames isn't bad cause it can hit a jace to kill it and sometimes provide good hero triggers
R/x aggro: +3 boros reckoner +2 flames, -2 anax and cymede, -1 leader of the phalanx, -2 dragon mantle. boros reckoner shines here obviously. if you have alot of RDW varients around (i don't) i would recommend a 4th in the sb. the flames is nice to take care of a guy and provide a hero trigger, plus mantle is bad here, not enough early interaction
GW aggro: -3 mantle, -2 anax and cymede, -1 phalanx leader, +3 boros reckoner, +3 mizzum mortars. depending on their list if they have alot of x/1 and x/2 you may want flames here for a couple boros charm or madcap skills, especially if on the play. also don't forget 5 power guys for you = selesnya charm screwing you.
W/x Aggro; -3 mantle, +2 flames +1 boros reckoner. pretty simple here, i honestly don't even think a sb is necessary, just make bigger dudes and your faster then them.
G/x devotion: -3 mantle, -2 anax and cymede, -1 phalanx leader,-1 madcap skills, +3 chained to the rocks, + 3 reckoner, + 1 mizzum mortars. if they are G/r revotion and have burn/stormbreath feel free to add more mortars and/or less chains to deal with those. chain is just so good vs their t3-4 polokranos its like a timewalk. also if on heavy mystic and saytr plan flames doesn't hurt on the play.
R/x devorion: +3 boros reckoner, +3 mizzum mortars, -4 madcap skills, -2 anax and cymede. anax is bad here because of mass burn removal that is CA for them (magma jet and warleader helix) need to stick hoplite here and protect him and you shouldn't lose though due to hero trigger
That is my general SB plan so far, although i am sure i am going to have to make tweaks as BNG settles into the T2 format.
that should cover most of the matchups
Also, dragon mantle is a good MD card, it provides a general sweep of things you want, while not really standing out. therefore i usually board it out and if there were a card that was more efficient and could do the things it does i would replace it. any ideas are welcome as far as mantle goes lol
I personally don't like it. I do not think it is fast enough in the current meta. And while it does do some cool tricks, i think that overall you want either a RW or RWx heroic deck do to the sheer speed of the cards in that color combo.
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Could you share that in the budget subforum? Interesting list.
Everyone wants to break heroic, this is a good list for it me thinks.
Legion Loyalist would really only work if I were playing a higher creature count. When I build up a big creature, he's usually able to swing through regardless because of Gods Willing/Madcap Skills. I have thought about him, because his haste makes him much better later on than my other 1-drops, but I dunno. So far I think I'd much rather have more 1-drops with evasion.
BW is a relatively tough matchup, same with BWR. I've lost to it several times since just yesterday (shows how much I've been playing lol), and I do think some tweaks are in order. Mono B is usually fine, it's usually that W gives them access to more life gain in Obzedat and Blood Baron, and they just pack more removal. Skullcrack isn't that great in those matchups because most of their lifegain isn't a "one-shot" effect like Sphinx's Rev. Not sure what changes I'll make, but I'll be giving it more thought!
My boros list would probably look something like this:
4 temple of triumph
9 plains
5 mountain
4 favored hoplite
4 phalanx leader
4 akroan crusader
4 young pyromancer
4 boros charm
4 martial glory
4 ethereal armor
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
2 hopeful eidolon
4 favored hoplite
2 phalanx leader
4 battlewise hoplite
2 banisher priest
3 anax and cymede
SPELLS (24)
2 bioshift
3 ethereal armor
3 gods willing
4 boros charm
3 ordeal of thassa
4 hidden strings
3 detention sphere
2 izzet charm
4 hallowed fountain
4 steam vents
4 sacred foundry
2 temple of triumph
3 plains
1 island
1 mountain
2 triton tactics
2 artisan of forms
4 swansong
3 spell rupture
2 judge's familiar
1 ethereal armor
1 boros charm
It seems a bit muddled for an aggro deck, but I've found it works splendidly in practice. It has trouble against the G/W aggro deck but still plays 50/50. It destroys other aggro decks and most midrange decks pretty reliably. I don't have a lot of experience against high tier control decks but I imagine it will struggle a little pre-sideboard and then do very well post.
I should stress that the deck is generally trying only to put out one to two creatures and then focus on pumping them. It doesn't run out a lot and try and slam down for the win, but rather keeps spares in hand for obfuscation's sake. One uncontested hero is typically enough to finish a game in two to three turns, or at least make that outcome inevitable.
So that tournament I was in did not go well, 1-2 drop I'm not gonna blame it on luck really, it just wasn't my day for it I guess.
After that, I lost a few 8-mans (which was a first for the deck), but since then it's been going much better once again.
For reference, my deck WAS Boros at the time... Since then, I've moved to full WBR (Dega). At first this seemed crazy to me, like the mana would be god awful, but I ended up building the mana base correctly. I realized that White-heavy dega was the only 3c combo that had perfect virtually perfect mana; that is, 8 WR duals, 8 WB duals, with the remainder filled in by BR shocks. And I'm still not sure if Black is necessary, OR the best way to go, but it's been running even better than before.
My current list:
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Tormented Hero
4 Hopeful Eidolon
4 Judge's Familiar
Spell
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Gods Willing
4 Titan's Strength
4 Deviant Glee
4 Madcap Skills
3 Orzhov Charm
2 Boon Of Erebos
4 Temple of Silence
4 Godless Shrine
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Blood Crypt
4 Boros Charm
4 Rakdos Charm
3 Swift Justice
2 Seismic Stomp
1 Orzhov Charm
1 Boon of Erebos
Turns out I don't even want Thoughtseize... I've played with it, and even when I've drawn it I don't really want to cast it, as it does nothing really to synergize with my deck, so I'd rather just have more targeted protection spells and the like.
The Deviant Glees have been great. I've been wanting something to replace Dragon Mantle, and while Glee isn't a cantrip, it's a better pump aura spell that gives trample. Very relevant.
The rest of the deck is intact, except for that I took out the 2 Suntail hawks; I decided I really didn't need 18 creatures.
The charms are where it gets interesting. Orzhov charms have been great as simple kill spells, but don't forget they can also save a guy AND all his auras from removal (and you can then replay said auras on a different creature it that helps you get in). Plus, they can also return any of the 1-drops from graveyard to play, at instant speed, for a surprise creature!
The Rakdos charms are in for mono-U, and the Seismic Stomps are my tech against that as well as G/R Monsters Won a few games off them, not amazing so far but they're staying for now.
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Akroan Crusader
2 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Phalanx Leader
1 Precinct Captain
1 Fencing Ace
3 Anax and Cymede
2 Fabled Hero
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Madcap Skills
4 Gods Willing
3 Coordinated Assault
3 Martial Glory
1 Boros Charm
20 Lands
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Temple of Triumph
9 Plains
4 Mountain
3 Brave the Elements
4 Pit Fight
2 Boros Charm
3 Mindsparker
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
It definitely plays a little riskier/hit-or-miss than most decks in the format as it really depends on getting all three pillars (lands, heroes, heroic enablers) or else it's pretty useless. Esper control and other removal heavy decks can wreck it pretty hard without a well timed Gods Willing. Still it can easily be fast enough to kill a control deck if they don't kill your creatures from the start as it can out race a Verdict pretty easily on the play. Often times in game one, you can keep the creatures unthreatening enough so that they tap out to grow their board position and boom those 1/1's are now dealing 15+ damage ftw. The real key in the control matchup is stay explosive on the play and in game one and then stay consistent with must-kill threats post-board (especially on the draw) dealing 2-5 damage a turn and keeping them on the defensive instead of banking on the explosive 15+ damage turn.
Against creature based decks, the deck really sings. On the play and sometimes even on the draw, you can race them and keep them on the defensive, forcing them to block into your combat tricks, where even bigger creatures like Desecration Demon Polukranos, World Eater can easily die to a giant, often first-striking, roided out one drop. Without removal, the enchantments really become insane, especially the turn two Madcap Skills which if unchecked can out race pretty much anything.
I'm still not entirely sure with the sideboard as I want to really improve the control/removal-heavy matchup post-board. I just put in the Braves (with the rise of devotion, specially mono-blue), so I don't know how those with work out yet, but the charms have been a nice help, although I've been a little underwhelmed with Mindsparker. Against creature decks, Pit Fight is just too fun as it triggers heroic while killing a creature. There are few things better than attacking with an innocent 1/2 Favored Hoplite, having them block with a 4/4 (Kalonian Hydra for example) and then playing Pit Fight, killing their creature and saving yours while also making it bigger.
Mostly because Bioshift is bad.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
2x Dryad Militant
3x Battlewise Hoplite
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Fabled Hero
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Gods Willing
3x Titan's Strength
2x Boros Charm
3x Azorius Charm
4x Steam Vents
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Temple of Triumph
3x Island
3x Mountain
3x Plains
Current list in playtesting, more aggro, a little less Heroic focus but can still pull out some fast wins with the targets on the fabled hero, working on the sideboard now, with removal to match, but I might just fill it with some more answers to removal
1 Island
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Azorius Guildgate
1 Mutavault
3 Hopeful Eidolons
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Favored Hoplite
3 Judges Familiar
3 Phalanx Leader
4 Precinct Captain
1 Battlewise Hoplite
4 Gods Willing
2 Hidden Strings
4 Aqueous Form
4 Ethereal Armor
3 Ordeal of Thassa
1 Ordeal of Heliod
1 Renounce the Guild
2 Heliod, God of the Sun
3 Gainsay
3 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Rapid Hybridization
1 Voyages End
1 Glare of Heresy
For the most part, it's 1 drops, and the 2 drops have to be exceptional or counters to maintain tempo.
Generally speaking, the few weaknesses of the deck are Ratchet Bomb and Supreme Verdict. Rootborn Defense has been ruled out because of its 3 CMC, but considerations are Sundering Growth to answer Ratchet Bomb.
This "LOOKS" like something that would scoop to U/W, and esper, which are pretty popular where I'm at. Gods willing and boros charm seem like they might help quite a bit but I'm not sure that where anyone wants to be against Revelation.dec
4x Azorius Guildgate
4x Hallowed Fountain
6x Island
7x Plains
3x Nivmagus Elemental
3x Favored Hoplite
3x Battlewise Hoplite
2x Daxos of Melitis
2x Fabled Hero
3x Wavecrash Triton
4x Gods Willing
4x Triton Tactics
4x Aqueous Form
2x Ordeal of Heliod
2x Ordeal of Thassa
2x Ethereal Armor
Artifact(1)
1x Spear of Heliod
4x Rootborn Defenses
4x Rapid Hybridization
3x Glare of Heresy
I've been looking for ways to take heat off the key components of the deck and to really have too many options for my opponent to choose from before going for the kill.
I agree with all of this and this is the comment on this thread that seems to belong in the Competitive Forum. Well said on all counts, Barrel Roll.
Ok, first of all there are some things that have been said here which will never be true in even a semi-competitive FNM. Let's do a few quick ones...
* Bioshift- Bad. There are so many wonderful ways we can spend our mana more reliably. Yes, it CAN work. I'd even like it to. But how reliable is this in our meta? How often does it help you win if you arent already winning? This is a win more card at best.
* Artisan of forms- A card that is totally worthless by itself and against a control opponent. Bulky bulk rare is bulk. Fun idea for casual though!
*Take- This card requires 3 counters on a creature in order to be better than divination... and then it makes your guy small again. This does not even boarder on the country adjacent to Competitive-ania. It stings me a bit that it even got mentioned without being laughed at.
* Most of you are using too many enablers and not enough creatures. It will result in far less consistent usable draws.
With the addition of BNG many things have changed.
*We now have up to 12 dual lands to use (I wouldn't use more than 6 Temples/Guild Gates). There's no longer any reason to run islands. This makes the mana that much easier to work with.
* We get a ton of super playables. Ephara's Enlightenment is one that stands out.
I'm pondering assembling my own primer for a competitive W/U Heroic deck that's updated with BNG. My take on the deck is different enough from what is in this thread that it may well be justified.
Phalanx Leader isn't good enough. He's perfectly fine in a White Weenie deck, but running a heroic deck ideally all of our creatures should have heroic triggers on them. Couple that with a 1/1 body and WW cost makes him rather weak. Run Favored Hoplite instead, 1/2 body and prevent all dmg done this turn stops Anger of the Gods, and combat damage. Much stronger pick IMO. Hoplite can also be cast turn 1, setting up a nice turn 2 Hidden Strings. Battlewise Hoplite also is a stronger pick, as he has a 2/2 body and the ability to scry, filtering your draws. Phalanx Leader feels like a compliment to a non-heroic deck, not a staple of a Heroic deck.
I also agree with the "Bioshift is a do nothing card" statement. It triggers two heroic triggers.... so what? I'd rather run Mizzium Skins and protect my creatures while buffing their toughness, or run Triton Tactics for the best "GOTYA!" moment you could ask for. Triton Tactics also helps vs Anger of the Gods, or Mizzium Mortar. Bioshift I could see being used as a kill-con, but it's a risky one at that. Here let me move all my counters to the unblocked guy for lethal.... only to have my opponent remove him in response.
Fabled Hero does nothing for a couple turns. What? Cipher Hidden Strings on him, see what happens(If he hits the player you cast two copies). Even with 0 buffs he's 4 dmg to the face. Fabled Hero is the absolute hands down best card we have to work with. Dead weight is the last way I would describe this staple of our deck.
Artisan of Forms is great for catching up to your opponent... but we should be in control of the early game, and don't really care about Desecration Demon. Our dudes will be bigger, and we have more combat tricks.
Surprised Ordeal of Thassa isn't mentioned here. If you cast him on an non-summoning sickened creature, you usually get 2 counters and 2 draws for 1U. Extremely strong card, and has been doing work for my playtesting.
To the man who asked why is this positioned well in the meta? Well.... Because the keyword Heroic is printed all over Theros/Born of the Gods. When Ravnica rotates, guess who will reign supreme? This deck is also strong due to its creatures being near unkillable, giant threats, with counter magic/combat tricks/hexproof to keep them alive. This is a tempo/mid range deck with enough fuel to control the game.
4 Favoured Hoplite
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Akroan Crusader
2 Phalanx Leader
4 Boros Charm
4 Gods Willing
2 Dragon Mantle
1 Co-ordinated Assault
4 Madcap Skills
4 Ethereal Armor
4 Titan's Strength
2 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
6 Plains
5 Mountain
3 Lightning Strike
3 Brave the Elements
4 Pacifism
3 Skullcrack
2 Swift Justice
So it was a very hastily put together deck as I wanted to try something different to my usual Rakdos deck.
My thoughts in no particular order:
Finished 1-2 with my losses both being 2-1 (Rakdos aggro and MonoU, close games so not going to suggest the deck is a complete failure just yet).
4 favored hoplite
4 akroan crusader
4 phalanx leader
2 hopeful eidolon
2 Anax and Cymede
spells
4 god's willing
4 Titan's strength
4 Boros charm
4 Madcap Skills
4 Etheral Armor
3 Dragon Mantle
1 Chained to the Rocks
4 Temple of Triumph
7 plains
5 Mountain
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Skullcrack
3 Mizzum Mortars
2 Flames of the firebrand
A few Things:
1) The deck is extremely powerful, dealing 5 damage on turn 2 in a veriety of ways such as t1 crusader/hoplite + t2 madcap skills/titans strength.
2)I felt the deck needed a little more umph in the late game and phalanx leader provides that, either pumping a whole team of crusader tokens or just as another threat if they manage to kill him.
3) anax and cymede is a house, especially after they have wasted their first few removal spells, with any form of enchantment he just sits there and ruins combat for the opponent.
4) great mono u matchup, great GW matchup, great Gr devotion matchup. 50/50 vs mono black devotion and RW devotion. bad matchup (at least game 1) vs. control
Also wanted to mention that the key to this deck is to not overextend your buffs on one guy unless you have to, balance the power of your enchantments and buffs is the key here.
And last, for BNG i'm currently testing out Eidolon of countless battles for the anax and cymede and nyxborn rollicker for the eidolons. so far they have been working out great but i still think the deck is missing just one more tweak somewhere.
But yeah this deck is VERY legit and i hope more people start to play it and comment on it, thanks!
UWheroic U W
same for orzhov midrange, although they are a little more difficult because of the MB blood baron. the crusader swarm plan is optimal vs them. also mortars in the board is key. if that deck is in your meta in large numbers put 4 mortars in the board and maybe a renounce the guild or 2
Control is slightly in their favor simply due to the 14 md removal (verdict, charm, sphere and 2 last breath). sometimes they curve perfectly from charm to sphere to verdict, other times they stumble on scry lands/useless early cards like dissolve and revelation and I stomp their face on t4.
those are all the more difficult matchups though. mono white, mono u, mono g devotion and GW aggro are all in your favor in my testing/tournament play due to their lack of removal for the early beatings. mono u In my opinion is the easiest of these also
Particularly vs MonoU, R/x Aggro and the control matchups?
What's your view on Dragon Mantle? Are you using it for anything other than a draw spell?
My view is that's where the tweak can come.
MBC: -4 madcap skills, -3 mantle, +3 chained to the rocks, +4 skullcrack. madcap skills rarely gets in more then 3 dmg due to their heavy removal and being able to neutralize a grey merchant when they need life or a whip trigger is huge, and chained takes care of initial blockers such as specter when they are behind, also getting a pack rat early or a desperation play of desc demon is always welcome.
Mono u: -3 dragon mantle, +3 chained to the rocks: this match up is great. their lack of removal leaves them with one option, slam a master of waves for board control. if you save a chain for the master I haven't lost to them yet in a 2/3
Control: -4 madcap skills, + 4 skull crack, -1 chained, plus 1 flames of the firebrand. i haven't found the tech to beat them yet, I just know mantle is good vs them for not losing CA and that the pump on a guy late game is critical. flames isn't bad cause it can hit a jace to kill it and sometimes provide good hero triggers
R/x aggro: +3 boros reckoner +2 flames, -2 anax and cymede, -1 leader of the phalanx, -2 dragon mantle. boros reckoner shines here obviously. if you have alot of RDW varients around (i don't) i would recommend a 4th in the sb. the flames is nice to take care of a guy and provide a hero trigger, plus mantle is bad here, not enough early interaction
GW aggro: -3 mantle, -2 anax and cymede, -1 phalanx leader, +3 boros reckoner, +3 mizzum mortars. depending on their list if they have alot of x/1 and x/2 you may want flames here for a couple boros charm or madcap skills, especially if on the play. also don't forget 5 power guys for you = selesnya charm screwing you.
W/x Aggro; -3 mantle, +2 flames +1 boros reckoner. pretty simple here, i honestly don't even think a sb is necessary, just make bigger dudes and your faster then them.
G/x devotion: -3 mantle, -2 anax and cymede, -1 phalanx leader,-1 madcap skills, +3 chained to the rocks, + 3 reckoner, + 1 mizzum mortars. if they are G/r revotion and have burn/stormbreath feel free to add more mortars and/or less chains to deal with those. chain is just so good vs their t3-4 polokranos its like a timewalk. also if on heavy mystic and saytr plan flames doesn't hurt on the play.
R/x devorion: +3 boros reckoner, +3 mizzum mortars, -4 madcap skills, -2 anax and cymede. anax is bad here because of mass burn removal that is CA for them (magma jet and warleader helix) need to stick hoplite here and protect him and you shouldn't lose though due to hero trigger
That is my general SB plan so far, although i am sure i am going to have to make tweaks as BNG settles into the T2 format.
that should cover most of the matchups
Also, dragon mantle is a good MD card, it provides a general sweep of things you want, while not really standing out. therefore i usually board it out and if there were a card that was more efficient and could do the things it does i would replace it. any ideas are welcome as far as mantle goes lol
UWheroic U W