I have 3 Temple of Deceit and 4Watery Grave and 2Dimir Guildgate and the rest are all swamps and islands. When i get my 4th temple ill add it to the deck I usually never have any problems in hitting my land drops. Most times if i have an aetherling in hand i can usually cast it if need be. No one in my LGS plays azorious control. There is one guy who comes up every so often and he plays a control deck that uses Consuming Aberration and jaces but he almost never plays due to work. There is another control deck a guy regularly plays which is similar to the other guys deck. He mills with this one. Most times for control i am siding in the whole SB for those decks Duress and Ashiok and negate and hero's downfall for planeswalkers and taking out all my removal. I also usually have no problems in hitting my answers, but sometimes i do run out. I am going to play at another game store on friday that i go to when i have the day off so its gonna be a different meta. Might see some azorius control decks i dont know. What do you guys think about disperse or cyclonic rift for d-spheres?
Some of you are trying way too hard or just being different for difference sake. Yasooka has been giving us a fantastic platform to work on for weeks now.
4 Mutavaults
4 Jace
Some combination of MoW/Sphinx/Ashiok
Removal, counters, Thoughtseize
Why are all of you seemingly trying to dismantle something that works?
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Some of you are trying way too hard or just being different for difference sake. Yasooka has been giving us a fantastic platform to work on for weeks now.
4 Mutavaults
4 Jace
Some combination of MoW/Sphinx/Ashiok
Removal, counters, Thoughtseize
Why are all of you seemingly trying to dismantle something that works?
My gripe with yasooka's list is that jace and mow have been underperforming, the 4 mutavaults have been hurting the consistency too. Didn't like holding onto Ultimate price against a field of reckoners and cacklers nor did I enjoy holding doom blades maindeck when I got paired up against mono black. Never enjoyed holding on to cards I flat couldn't cast either... not worth the scry 1
Check out the article on mana-bases, it's backed up by SCIENCE
Some of you are trying way too hard or just being different for difference sake. Yasooka has been giving us a fantastic platform to work on for weeks now.
4 Mutavaults
4 Jace
Some combination of MoW/Sphinx/Ashiok
Removal, counters, Thoughtseize
Why are all of you seemingly trying to dismantle something that works?
I find your post to be highly ironic considering your signature. No offense.
I prefer Aetherling over Sphinx or Pack Rat. He's a much bigger problem than either.
I prefer Aetherling over Sphinx or Pack Rat. He's a much bigger problem than either.
I definitely have some mixed feelings about aetherling, namely because of what it takes to get to the point where it's safe to tap out for him, he comes down way later. I'm gonna try out a singleton of him though over p-sphinx # 3. Ling calls for a different game-plan and would be a little bit too much of a win more card in a midrange deck
Dimir Charm is really strong, with being able to thoughtseize and eot charm to fateseal and drop a bomb. The kill mode on it is very well-positioned too, kills all the mono blue creatures and everything except for DD in MBD
@Other Guy - everyone's meta is different. Dunno where you get "different for difference sake". Also, Yasooka is 46th on the Pro Tour with that build. Not Top 8. Not Top 16. Not even Top 32. Nope, you have to go to Top 64 to get to that build.
@RoyG I agree with everything you just posted.
@elMocha I've tried Dimir Charm over other spells, and here's my take: the one blue is too much blue for a kill spell when Devour, Doom Blade, Dark Betrayal, and Hero's Downfall take care of everything. I've countered a sorcery twice ever, and the pseudo-Fateseal isn't enough hand disruption, Even with Scry everywhere. I tried 2-of Sphinx over Aetherling for a while. And It's good in Game 1. 2 & 3 are another story, because you side out dead cards from Game 1 that you used to Give Sphinx Hexproof, and now you have to dump answers. Aetherling on the other hand Uses 1 to COMPLETELY LEAVE the entire game until it's safe to come back. you can dump mana into him to swing with an 8/1, or if ever need be he can block for 0/however-much-mana-you-have. In short, if you don't counter Aetherling, he's gonna kill you 99 times out of 100.
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@elMocha I've tried Dimir Charm over other spells, and here's my take: the one blue is too much blue for a kill spell when Devour, Doom Blade, Dark Betrayal, and Hero's Downfall take care of everything. I've countered a sorcery twice ever, and the pseudo-Fateseal isn't enough hand disruption, Even with Scry everywhere. I tried 2-of Sphinx over Aetherling for a while. And It's good in Game 1. 2 & 3 are another story, because you side out dead cards from Game 1 that you used to Give Sphinx Hexproof, and now you have to dump answers. Aetherling on the other hand Uses 1 to COMPLETELY LEAVE the entire game until it's safe to come back. you can dump mana into him to swing with an 8/1, or if ever need be he can block for 0/however-much-mana-you-have. In short, if you don't counter Aetherling, he's gonna kill you 99 times out of 100.
Doom blade and dark betrayal are too narrow for the mainboard imho, they're good sideboard cards though for sure.
As for Dimir Charm, I just think it's very well positioned right now but it really depends on what your gameplan is. I've been using it to fateseal a ton and like I said it works very well with thoughtseize and permission if you want to drop a midrange bomb. Dimir charm is something that can simultaneously give us a serious edge against both mono blue and mono black at the same time with its kill mode alone. Even though it's not as ideal as doom blade against mono green for example, the versatility of its other modes outweigh it and you never want to sit on a doom blade against mono black or an ultimate price against most of the creatures in rdw, MUD, selesnya aggro ect (cackler, weird, fleecemane, vor, smiter, spectre, reckoner). The most use modes so far have been both the fateseal and the creature removal. A hefty amount of this format's role-players get wrecked by dimir charm
Thoughtseize
Master of Waves and friends
Spectre
Gary
Aetherling is super good I'm not denying that, everyone agrees that he's the best threat in standard, I just don't think we have the ability to prolong the game long enough for him to truly matter due to how expensive he is. His effectiveness is largely dependent on whether or not the board is clear enough for you not to die in the next 2-3 turns after dropping him on t7 or later, which is a board state that's not very realistic unless you're playing esper. If you're going the aetherling route, this can also explain why you're finding dimir charm's fateseal mode underwhelming, you have to have some tempo or be able to generate early tempo for it to truly matter.
I've switched from sphinx to pack rat and I'm sold on it, pack rat is nuts as a 5 drop with permission and can turn the game around if you're behind, which is an aspect that aetherling falls short on. The decklist you posted a page ago is highly explanatory of why you want aetherling over the other options since you're low on the win-cons, you aren't able to afford to risk the possibility of having your win-con removed. I'm assuming that it's now some variant of this (taken from last page)
Doom blade and dark betrayal are too narrow for the mainboard imho, they're good sideboard cards though for sure.
As for Dimir Charm, I just think it's very well positioned right now but it really depends on what your gameplan is. I've been using it to fateseal a ton and like I said it works very well with thoughtseize and permission if you want to drop a midrange bomb. Dimir charm is something that can simultaneously give us a serious edge against both mono blue and mono black at the same time with its kill mode alone. Even though it's not as ideal as doom blade against mono green for example, the versatility of its other modes outweigh it and you never want to sit on a doom blade against mono black or an ultimate price against most of the creatures in rdw, MUD, selesnya aggro ect (cackler, weird, fleecemane, vor, smiter, spectre, reckoner). The most use modes so far have been both the fateseal and the creature removal. A hefty amount of this format's role-players get wrecked by dimir charm
Thoughtseize
Master of Waves and friends
Spectre
Gary
Aetherling is super good I'm not denying that, everyone agrees that he's the best threat in standard, I just don't think we have the ability to prolong the game long enough for him to truly matter due to how expensive he is. His effectiveness is largely dependent on whether or not the board is clear enough for you not to die in the next 2-3 turns after dropping him on t7 or later, which is a board state that's not very realistic unless you're playing esper. If you're going the aetherling route, this can also explain why you're finding dimir charm's fateseal mode underwhelming, you have to have some tempo or be able to generate early tempo for it to truly matter.
I've switched from sphinx to pack rat and I'm sold on it, pack rat is nuts as a 5 drop with permission and can turn the game around if you're behind, which is an aspect that aetherling falls short on. The decklist you posted a page ago is highly explanatory of why you want aetherling over the other options since you're low on the win-cons, you aren't able to afford to risk the possibility of having your win-con removed. I'm assuming that it's now some variant of this (taken from last page)
You know what, I'll try 3 Dimir Charm in place of the doom blades and something else, maybe Far/Away. And actually, I need to post my updated list, I've played around a bit and have something much more solid. I rarely have a problem droping Aetherling, and I've dealt with Pack Rats successfully. But yeah, I'll try Charms for a bit and give you an updated opinion on them. I actually win most games with Ashiok and/or Jace.
As for MoW, I think he will find his home as expected in U Dev, not control.
Dimir Charms replaced 1 Far/Away and 2 Ultimate Price, Moved Devour Flesh back to the MD and Doom Blade to SB. It's more spot removal than I had used in the past, because I was relying on Counter spells, and showing up way to short against Selesnya, Mono U, Mono B, and RDW. Everything that has helped me win against control is still in the MD except the Essence Scatters in the SB. Dissolve can still do that(mainly Aetherling and Blood Baron of Viskopa, and Game 2 and 3 can get beefed up on counter magic if necessary. The second Far/away Is now the 4th Dissolve, However, I'm seriously considering 3 Cyclonic Rift and 3 Dissolve.
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@Other Guy - everyone's meta is different. Dunno where you get "different for difference sake". Also, Yasooka is 46th on the Pro Tour with that build. Not Top 8. Not Top 16. Not even Top 32. Nope, you have to go to Top 64 to get to that build.
Not that I even mentioned the PT but...
He actually top4'd a GP just this year but hey, you obviously follow the results of your archetype way more closely than the rest of us.
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He actually top4'd a GP just this year but hey, you obviously follow the results of your archetype way more closely than the rest of us.
It's a great deck, but it's not very consistent. I would refer to my own experience with it, but you can just refer to the probability charts in the article from last page.
70 75 % chance of a t1 thoughtseize
around 80 % for a t3 dissolve
less than 80% chance for a t3 hero's downfall
Couldn't cast the spells I wanted to most of the time, but HEY.. mutavault and scry 1 yo!...
When it comes to how much weight a premise holds in reaching a conclusion, math > a tournament placing. Math is basically just pure logic if you aren't too familiar with it
You know what, I'll try 3 Dimir Charm in place of the doom blades and something else, maybe Far/Away. And actually, I need to post my updated list, I've played around a bit and have something much more solid. I rarely have a problem droping Aetherling, and I've dealt with Pack Rats successfully. But yeah, I'll try Charms for a bit and give you an updated opinion on them. I actually win most games with Ashiok and/or Jace.
As for MoW, I think he will find his home as expected in U Dev, not control.
This is close to what I'm running online right now. I'm still not sold on Quicken. You're trading a card for a card, that could have been another card lol.
I didn't have problems playing Dissolve most of the time on T3, but I switched to Psychic Strike anyway.
3x Desecration Demon in place of Omenspeaker.
3x Far // Away MB with great success so far.
Also, only 2 Mutavault. Having more than 1 in my opening hand is painful.
This is close to what I'm running online right now. I'm still not sold on Quicken. You're trading a card for a card, that could have been another card lol.
I didn't have problems playing Dissolve most of the time on T3, but I switched to Psychic Strike anyway.
3x Desecration Demon in place of Omenspeaker.
3x Far // Away MB with great success so far.
Also, only 2 Mutavault. Having more than 1 in my opening hand is painful.
I would've liked Omenspeaker to be at least a 2 P, but the scry 2 is what they are there for. With the 4 Scry lands, 3 Omenspeaker, and Jace fishing through my deck, Quicken helps a TON to get to what I need. Trading a card for a card is good, otherwise no one would care about Cycling. There's always that magic moment that I could get an EOT Quicken into Thoughtseize, but I don't play it for that. Since we're talking math, it's math that should turn you on to Quicken: Turn 1 any blue source you've got 53 cards on the play, 52 on the draw, assuming no mulligan, end of opponents turn, cycle the quicken, untap, upkeep draw, your library is now down to 50 - 51, so your turn 3 draw just raised from 1.88% - 1.9% to a solid 2% for any specific card. Not going to sit here and do the rest of the math, but that significantly raises the rate of increase in chances to get things as the game progresses. I wouldn't use it without other draw spells, like Inspiration, Divination, Jace, Architect of Thought, or even Opportunity. That 2% may seem small, but combine that with the Scrying, Inspirations and Jace effects, you thin your deck out to what you need much quicker, just by getting that single card out of your hand. 9 times out of 10 Azorius Charm just gets cycled anyway, right? Why not just drop the and plan on cycling? Most importantly, without having that card to toss in the graveyard to help dig, you could get stuck with a card you can't cast. You can draw a card against any deck. I strongly suggest 4 Quicken to anyone running blue without white.
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Went 2-1-1 Lost to a mono green deck when my deck failed to provide answers for his reverent hunters and his bow of nylea helped him to win the game. The one deck i tied was a simic flash deck. I could not deal with all his flashy creatures but in the end we tied because he kept returning my creatures to my hand and then dissolving them. The other two deck i beat were a mono B devotion deck and a poorly played boros deck by a newbie. The devotion deck was cool I ashiok'ed his erebos and that helped me to win the game.
Went 2-1-1 Lost to a mono green deck when my deck failed to provide answers for his reverent hunters and his bow of nylea helped him to win the game. The one deck i tied was a simic flash deck. I could not deal with all his flashy creatures but in the end we tied because he kept returning my creatures to my hand and then dissolving them. The other two deck i beat were a mono B devotion deck and a poorly played boros deck by a newbie. The devotion deck was cool I ashiok'ed his erebos and that helped me to win the game.
Less creatures, more answers. Add Draw.
You're going to run out of answers with that many wincons.
You're going to get to those answers with more draw.
Did you Turn Erebos into a creature, or draw cards?
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You're going to run out of answers with that many wincons.
You're going to get to those answers with more draw.
Did you Turn Erebos into a creature, or draw cards?
Yes i did both turned erebos into a beater and i drew some cards. With the flash deck i played and the mono green deck, i could not get what i needed because i was drawing land and getting flooded with mana
Yes i did both turned erebos into a beater and i drew some cards. With the flash deck i played and the mono green deck, i could not get what i needed because i was drawing land and getting flooded with mana
How many lands are you running, and how many cards are in your deck? I really need a complete decklist to help you properly.
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Round 1 - UW Control - 1 / 2 Loss
Won game 1, but then lost game 2 after getting my opponent to 5 and then just drawing dead while my opponent stabilizes, draws cards, and sticks AEtherling. Game 3 I was stuck on 3 mana for far to long and it was over.
0/1
Round 2 - Mono Black Devotion Pack Rat - 2 / 0 Win
Both games were easy, just kept the Pack Rat dead, disrupted the hand, the library. Used their own creatures against them. Kept counters up for Gary, Connections, Erebos.
1/1
Round 3 - Mono Black Aggro - 2 / 0 Win
This deck was filled with some Shananigans, it didn't resemble a normal devotion deck, but I think it had elements of it. It used Pyxis of Pandemonium. It seemed good VS me, a controlly type of deck. I was milling, and he was milling. The deck was designed well, problem was I stuck a few key permanents in GM1. AEtherling, Lifebanes, Nightveils. Then I cast a Gary that my Ashiok previously picked up. It was bonkers... It was a interesting deck, and I got to see a card I haven't previously had played against me before in action and it was pretty effective.
2/1
Round 4 - Maze End Deck - 2 / 1 Win
The deck was insanely effective, I was blown away at it... This round was way closer then it should have been tho in all honesty. Game 1 I won easily. Game 2 he won, it was rough going. Game 3 it was way way close, I don't remember the exact play but I had an amazing play the turn he was going to finish and end it. Very fun deck to play against, insanely effective, tough to stop with counters since it's all about lands. You counter their draw/card advantage engine of course, but it was still insanely effective or he was insanely lucky with his drops.
3/1
I've been piloting this deck with a few tweeks here and there the last few weeks. Been wanting to get Grixis to work, but for now till I find a good combination I cut the Red and went traditional UB Control.
I say Traditional UB Control because there are no Devotion shenanigans going on.
The thing I think that makes this deck so strong right now are these:
1. Hand Disruption: Thoughtseize, Lifebane
2. Deck Disruption: Nightveil, Ashiok
3. Effective aggro, not a lot of creatures in the deck, but the creatures that are in the deck each have their merit.
4. Great use of Counterspells, utilizing the information of what you MILL/RFG away, plus the information at taking peeks at your opponents hand. It's not tough to get a lock on the board that you're happy with.
I find this deck pretty basic IMO, but very effective.
Things about this deck that I love:
1. Ashiok -- I agree with those that say that Ashiok is a bit limited and in some matchups may not be all that great. However; the thing I love most about Ashiok is it's a wild card. Just like Discard Spells can disrupt your opponents hand, well Ashiok disrupts your opponents top decks, disrupts your opponents deck! Even in the Control Matchup if you land say a UW Control players AEtherling or 2, if that's all they really run for creatures, you're pretty much hosing them to the point of them probably scooping. Ashiok absolutely has it's usefulness in a deck like this and I think when combined with the disruptive capabilities of Nightveil Specter, it's a 1, 2 punch of Library hate to go along with the Permission and Hand Disruption, it's a powerful combination.
2. Don't sleep on Prognostic Sphinx, once you drop a Sphinx to go along with a Nightveil Specter or 2, at this point everything you have in your hand can be used to pitch to the Sphinx to keep that engine going. Sit behind that wall and goto work and hoard the counter spells behind it. It's a great dig to combine with Jace to find AEtherling. Combined with Jace it's so amazing too. Plus with Jace, take the value pick of 2 cards to fill your hand back up and to have PITCH fodder... Or attack with Prognostic, SCRY3, then plus Jace to get a great looking 3 off him. Both of these 2 together really put in work.
3. Nightveil Specter is bonkers! It's not the easiest creature to deal with in the current meta game, atleast for my shop but even on the bigger stage. The fun thing is when you stick a Nightveil on Turn 3, it absolutely needs killed right then and there or it starts really putting in work and could get real nasty real quick.
I love this deck right now!! It seems pretty strong and so far I've had great success with it.
Round 1 - UW Control - 1 / 2 Loss
Won game 1, but then lost game 2 after getting my opponent to 5 and then just drawing dead while my opponent stabilizes, draws cards, and sticks AEtherling. Game 3 I was stuck on 3 mana for far to long and it was over.
0/1
Round 2 - Mono Black Devotion Pack Rat - 2 / 0 Win
Both games were easy, just kept the Pack Rat dead, disrupted the hand, the library. Used their own creatures against them. Kept counters up for Gary, Connections, Erebos.
1/1
Round 3 - Mono Black Aggro - 2 / 0 Win
This deck was filled with some Shananigans, it didn't resemble a normal devotion deck, but I think it had elements of it. It used Pyxis of Pandemonium. It seemed good VS me, a controlly type of deck. I was milling, and he was milling. The deck was designed well, problem was I stuck a few key permanents in GM1. AEtherling, Lifebanes, Nightveils. Then I cast a Gary that my Ashiok previously picked up. It was bonkers... It was a interesting deck, and I got to see a card I haven't previously had played against me before in action and it was pretty effective.
2/1
Round 4 - Maze End Deck - 2 / 1 Win
The deck was insanely effective, I was blown away at it... This round was way closer then it should have been tho in all honesty. Game 1 I won easily. Game 2 he won, it was rough going. Game 3 it was way way close, I don't remember the exact play but I had an amazing play the turn he was going to finish and end it. Very fun deck to play against, insanely effective, tough to stop with counters since it's all about lands. You counter their draw/card advantage engine of course, but it was still insanely effective or he was insanely lucky with his drops.
3/1
I've been piloting this deck with a few tweeks here and there the last few weeks. Been wanting to get Grixis to work, but for now till I find a good combination I cut the Red and went traditional UB Control.
I say Traditional UB Control because there are no Devotion shenanigans going on.
The thing I think that makes this deck so strong right now are these:
1. Hand Disruption: Thoughtseize, Lifebane
2. Deck Disruption: Nightveil, Ashiok
3. Effective aggro, not a lot of creatures in the deck, but the creatures that are in the deck each have their merit.
4. Great use of Counterspells, utilizing the information of what you MILL/RFG away, plus the information at taking peeks at your opponents hand. It's not tough to get a lock on the board that you're happy with.
I find this deck pretty basic IMO, but very effective.
Things about this deck that I love:
1. Ashiok -- I agree with those that say that Ashiok is a bit limited and in some matchups may not be all that great. However; the thing I love most about Ashiok is it's a wild card. Just like Discard Spells can disrupt your opponents hand, well Ashiok disrupts your opponents top decks, disrupts your opponents deck! Even in the Control Matchup if you land say a UW Control players AEtherling or 2, if that's all they really run for creatures, you're pretty much hosing them to the point of them probably scooping. Ashiok absolutely has it's usefulness in a deck like this and I think when combined with the disruptive capabilities of Nightveil Specter, it's a 1, 2 punch of Library hate to go along with the Permission and Hand Disruption, it's a powerful combination.
2. Don't sleep on Prognostic Sphinx, once you drop a Sphinx to go along with a Nightveil Specter or 2, at this point everything you have in your hand can be used to pitch to the Sphinx to keep that engine going. Sit behind that wall and goto work and hoard the counter spells behind it. It's a great dig to combine with Jace to find AEtherling. Combined with Jace it's so amazing too. Plus with Jace, take the value pick of 2 cards to fill your hand back up and to have PITCH fodder... Or attack with Prognostic, SCRY3, then plus Jace to get a great looking 3 off him. Both of these 2 together really put in work.
3. Nightveil Specter is bonkers! It's not the easiest creature to deal with in the current meta game, atleast for my shop but even on the bigger stage. The fun thing is when you stick a Nightveil on Turn 3, it absolutely needs killed right then and there or it starts really putting in work and could get real nasty real quick.
I love this deck right now!! It seems pretty strong and so far I've had great success with it.
A few things I don't like about it:
Only 25 lands in a control deck with little draw means that you won't hit your land drops
Lifebane Zombie seems like a side-board card, or else your meta is a bit skewed.
I still have AEtherling, I'm guessing you would have me run more AEtherlings.
THIS - is a valid argument I'll give you that.
Thing is, generally 1 AEtherling is all you need. I'm considering 1 more in the sideboard but all in all 1 AEtherling is really all you need as long as it's played right. I don't want to muck up the deck with any more then 1 6 CMC spell. On top of that while I'm playing the early Game, I really don't care to see an AEtherling sitting around in my hand for it to be Thoughtseized out.
I've considered going to 2, but opted to give me the Prognostic Digging power instead.
I realize you said your list is rough and you don't even like it...
You realize you have 3 Thoughtseize slotted in the main right?
1 more isn't making that much of a difference... trust me.
All I want to TRY and guarantee is that I have great chances of having 1 Thoughtseize in the first 3 Turns. Rarely am I that lucky that I'm getting multiple Thoughtseize in a game to have to worry about the Life Loss.
Its minimal... IN a Control deck, your life is used as a tool.
I'd rather make the argument that a set of Thoughtseize isn't even needed, but the life loss is hardly as noticeable than if you were, say a 3 color deck. If anything I'd like to load up a bit more on cheaper removal but that's probably a meta thing.
Personally I like the 2 MoW over the Sphinxes as they work well with your Tidebinders out of the board and are just good value creatures by themselves.
Can't say I like Elixir, you really don't have the inevitability that Revelation decks have against the more aggressive lists, not bad against control mirrors I guess but not really an exciting card.
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I'd rather make the argument that a set of Thoughtseize isn't even needed, but the life loss is hardly as noticeable than if you were, say a 3 color deck. If anything I'd like to load up a bit more on cheaper removal but that's probably a meta thing.
Personally I like the 2 MoW over the Sphinxes as they work well with your Tidebinders out of the board and are just good value creatures by themselves.
Can't say I like Elixir, you really don't have the inevitability that Revelation decks have against the more aggressive lists, not bad against control mirrors I guess but not really an exciting card.
Fair points all around!
To be fair, I just really want to play Thoughtseize!
Thoughtseize attacking my opponents hand while backing it up with Permission + Mill/Exile just seems like a pretty strong combination for a lot of decks with solid strategies. It's a full deck disruption, not just hand disruption or mill, both together.
I agree, the life lost is minimal and with all the rest of the removal/permission and creatures putting in work, it rarely becomes a problem.
I've even gotten to the point that I rarely side out Thoughtseize in any matchups as it can be an effective hoser for any deck.
As far as loading up on Cheaper Removal though instead of Thoughtseize, I believe that would just muck up the deck with potentially dead cards in the main. Nightveils are pretty effective at playing Defense and Prognostic Sphinx also can do the same. The removal that I have is pretty effective with keeping problem creatures off the board while Jace + keeps anything small irrelevant.
So I don't think a case can be made that more removal is really needed...
Sure there are those Blitz Aggro decks and so I do have some extra ways of dealing with some of those aggro decks as insurance in the side.
As for MoW, I do like that option a lot. I think this suggestion definitely has a lot of merit to it. The reason I think I avoided any Devotion types of cards is to avoid any devotion stereotypes. It's funny, people still think I'm playing Devotion, but when it never comes up, they realize it's a traditional UB Control list. If I were to add any Devotion to the deck, it would def be MoW, I think it could be pretty effective and it'll keep the avg cost of the deck low since it's cheaper then Prognostic. I like the Prognostic synergy though and scrying 3 is very strong IMHO. I'm def considering it thought.
And yea, Elixir is just to go up against Control. I realize it's not as good when I'm not packing Revelations and such, but it's still pretty good in those matchups to reset the game. Maybe instead of Elixir, just go with another Notion Thief tho.
Yasooka originally played more Masters but went down to two, regardless of the right number, MoW is powerful, even for those less devoted.
I'm not saying don't play Thoughtseize but it's hardly the bees knees, especially in a less proactive list such as this one. I just like TS more in situations where it enables you to power out threats such as Pack Rat/ Demon etc and tend to like removal better in reactionary lists.
Could possibly see Zombie moving to the board in place of Pack Rat or more draw (Opportunity) to give you more powerful threats/ better draws late game, unless your meta warrants MB Zombie in which case that's probably fine too.
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I guess all Meta at all shops are the same?
All meta at all events are the same?
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant...
I meant that it seemed targetted towards your local meta. Which is great, of course.
Thing is, generally 1 AEtherling is all you need. I'm considering 1 more in the sideboard but all in all 1 AEtherling is really all you need as long as it's played right. I don't want to muck up the deck with any more then 1 6 CMC spell. On top of that while I'm playing the early Game, I really don't care to see an AEtherling sitting around in my hand for it to be Thoughtseized out.
I've considered going to 2, but opted to give me the Prognostic Digging power instead.
Mono-black devotion tends to play Devour Flesh, and that is the reason I don't play the Sphinx. That and losing to Ætherling against Mono-blue (after sideboarding).
The thing about aetherling is that if he's the only win-con you're running, you're going to get mauled by aggressive decks and likely midrange decks before he matters. P sphinx helps to stall the board state and the scry 3 on hexproof is very powerful, sure he can be removed but we have win the game faster than hoping to live until aetherling's 3 turn clock is relevant.
4 Mutavaults
4 Jace
Some combination of MoW/Sphinx/Ashiok
Removal, counters, Thoughtseize
Why are all of you seemingly trying to dismantle something that works?
My gripe with yasooka's list is that jace and mow have been underperforming, the 4 mutavaults have been hurting the consistency too. Didn't like holding onto Ultimate price against a field of reckoners and cacklers nor did I enjoy holding doom blades maindeck when I got paired up against mono black. Never enjoyed holding on to cards I flat couldn't cast either... not worth the scry 1
Check out the article on mana-bases, it's backed up by SCIENCE
I find your post to be highly ironic considering your signature. No offense.
I prefer Aetherling over Sphinx or Pack Rat. He's a much bigger problem than either.
I definitely have some mixed feelings about aetherling, namely because of what it takes to get to the point where it's safe to tap out for him, he comes down way later. I'm gonna try out a singleton of him though over p-sphinx # 3. Ling calls for a different game-plan and would be a little bit too much of a win more card in a midrange deck
Dimir Charm is really strong, with being able to thoughtseize and eot charm to fateseal and drop a bomb. The kill mode on it is very well-positioned too, kills all the mono blue creatures and everything except for DD in MBD
@RoyG I agree with everything you just posted.
@elMocha I've tried Dimir Charm over other spells, and here's my take: the one blue is too much blue for a kill spell when Devour, Doom Blade, Dark Betrayal, and Hero's Downfall take care of everything. I've countered a sorcery twice ever, and the pseudo-Fateseal isn't enough hand disruption, Even with Scry everywhere. I tried 2-of Sphinx over Aetherling for a while. And It's good in Game 1. 2 & 3 are another story, because you side out dead cards from Game 1 that you used to Give Sphinx Hexproof, and now you have to dump answers. Aetherling on the other hand Uses 1 to COMPLETELY LEAVE the entire game until it's safe to come back. you can dump mana into him to swing with an 8/1, or if ever need be he can block for 0/however-much-mana-you-have. In short, if you don't counter Aetherling, he's gonna kill you 99 times out of 100.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Doom blade and dark betrayal are too narrow for the mainboard imho, they're good sideboard cards though for sure.
As for Dimir Charm, I just think it's very well positioned right now but it really depends on what your gameplan is. I've been using it to fateseal a ton and like I said it works very well with thoughtseize and permission if you want to drop a midrange bomb. Dimir charm is something that can simultaneously give us a serious edge against both mono blue and mono black at the same time with its kill mode alone. Even though it's not as ideal as doom blade against mono green for example, the versatility of its other modes outweigh it and you never want to sit on a doom blade against mono black or an ultimate price against most of the creatures in rdw, MUD, selesnya aggro ect (cackler, weird, fleecemane, vor, smiter, spectre, reckoner). The most use modes so far have been both the fateseal and the creature removal. A hefty amount of this format's role-players get wrecked by dimir charm
Thoughtseize
Master of Waves and friends
Spectre
Gary
Aetherling is super good I'm not denying that, everyone agrees that he's the best threat in standard, I just don't think we have the ability to prolong the game long enough for him to truly matter due to how expensive he is. His effectiveness is largely dependent on whether or not the board is clear enough for you not to die in the next 2-3 turns after dropping him on t7 or later, which is a board state that's not very realistic unless you're playing esper. If you're going the aetherling route, this can also explain why you're finding dimir charm's fateseal mode underwhelming, you have to have some tempo or be able to generate early tempo for it to truly matter.
I've switched from sphinx to pack rat and I'm sold on it, pack rat is nuts as a 5 drop with permission and can turn the game around if you're behind, which is an aspect that aetherling falls short on. The decklist you posted a page ago is highly explanatory of why you want aetherling over the other options since you're low on the win-cons, you aren't able to afford to risk the possibility of having your win-con removed. I'm assuming that it's now some variant of this (taken from last page)
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deciet
3 Dimir Guildgate
3 Mutavault
8 Isalnd
4 Swamp
Creatures
3 Omenspeaker
1 Prognostic Sphinx
Instants
3 Dissolve
2 Essence Scatter
2 Doomblade
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Far/Away
4 Quicken
3 Inspiration
3 Thoughtseize
Artifacts
2 Ratchet Bomb
Planeswalkers
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Ultimate Price
2 Negate
2 Notion Theif
1 Desecration Demon
1 Hero's Downfall
You know what, I'll try 3 Dimir Charm in place of the doom blades and something else, maybe Far/Away. And actually, I need to post my updated list, I've played around a bit and have something much more solid. I rarely have a problem droping Aetherling, and I've dealt with Pack Rats successfully. But yeah, I'll try Charms for a bit and give you an updated opinion on them. I actually win most games with Ashiok and/or Jace.
As for MoW, I think he will find his home as expected in U Dev, not control.
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Dimir Guildgate
3 Mutavault
7 Island
5 Swamp
Creatures 4
3 Omenspeaker
1 Aetherling
Spells 23
3 Thoughtseize
2 Devour Flesh
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Dimir Charm
4 Dissolve
2 Cyclonic Rift
4 Quicken
3 Inspiration
2 Ratchet Bomb
Planeswalkers 5
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Pithing Needle
2 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
2 Doom Blade
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Notion Thief
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Desecration Demon
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Not that I even mentioned the PT but...
He actually top4'd a GP just this year but hey, you obviously follow the results of your archetype way more closely than the rest of us.
It's a great deck, but it's not very consistent. I would refer to my own experience with it, but you can just refer to the probability charts in the article from last page.
70 75 % chance of a t1 thoughtseize
around 80 % for a t3 dissolve
less than 80% chance for a t3 hero's downfall
Couldn't cast the spells I wanted to most of the time, but HEY.. mutavault and scry 1 yo!...
When it comes to how much weight a premise holds in reaching a conclusion, math > a tournament placing. Math is basically just pure logic if you aren't too familiar with it
This is close to what I'm running online right now. I'm still not sold on Quicken. You're trading a card for a card, that could have been another card lol.
I didn't have problems playing Dissolve most of the time on T3, but I switched to Psychic Strike anyway.
3x Desecration Demon in place of Omenspeaker.
3x Far // Away MB with great success so far.
Also, only 2 Mutavault. Having more than 1 in my opening hand is painful.
I would've liked Omenspeaker to be at least a 2 P, but the scry 2 is what they are there for. With the 4 Scry lands, 3 Omenspeaker, and Jace fishing through my deck, Quicken helps a TON to get to what I need. Trading a card for a card is good, otherwise no one would care about Cycling. There's always that magic moment that I could get an EOT Quicken into Thoughtseize, but I don't play it for that. Since we're talking math, it's math that should turn you on to Quicken: Turn 1 any blue source you've got 53 cards on the play, 52 on the draw, assuming no mulligan, end of opponents turn, cycle the quicken, untap, upkeep draw, your library is now down to 50 - 51, so your turn 3 draw just raised from 1.88% - 1.9% to a solid 2% for any specific card. Not going to sit here and do the rest of the math, but that significantly raises the rate of increase in chances to get things as the game progresses. I wouldn't use it without other draw spells, like Inspiration, Divination, Jace, Architect of Thought, or even Opportunity. That 2% may seem small, but combine that with the Scrying, Inspirations and Jace effects, you thin your deck out to what you need much quicker, just by getting that single card out of your hand. 9 times out of 10 Azorius Charm just gets cycled anyway, right? Why not just drop the and plan on cycling? Most importantly, without having that card to toss in the graveyard to help dig, you could get stuck with a card you can't cast. You can draw a card against any deck. I strongly suggest 4 Quicken to anyone running blue without white.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Less creatures, more answers. Add Draw.
You're going to run out of answers with that many wincons.
You're going to get to those answers with more draw.
Did you Turn Erebos into a creature, or draw cards?
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Yes i did both turned erebos into a beater and i drew some cards. With the flash deck i played and the mono green deck, i could not get what i needed because i was drawing land and getting flooded with mana
How many lands are you running, and how many cards are in your deck? I really need a complete decklist to help you properly.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Of 14 people, I finished 4th. 3 / 1
1 AEtherling
2 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Nightveil Specter
2 Lifebane Zombie
Spells: 20
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Ultimate Price
1 Doom Blade
2 Far//Away
4 Dissolve
3 Syncopate
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Lands: 25
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Dimir Guildgate
8 Swamp
6 Island
4 Tidebinder Mage
3 Gainsay
2 Negate
2 Pithing Needle
1 Far//Away
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Elixir of Immortality
Round 1 - UW Control - 1 / 2 Loss
Won game 1, but then lost game 2 after getting my opponent to 5 and then just drawing dead while my opponent stabilizes, draws cards, and sticks AEtherling. Game 3 I was stuck on 3 mana for far to long and it was over.
0/1
Round 2 - Mono Black Devotion Pack Rat - 2 / 0 Win
Both games were easy, just kept the Pack Rat dead, disrupted the hand, the library. Used their own creatures against them. Kept counters up for Gary, Connections, Erebos.
1/1
Round 3 - Mono Black Aggro - 2 / 0 Win
This deck was filled with some Shananigans, it didn't resemble a normal devotion deck, but I think it had elements of it. It used Pyxis of Pandemonium. It seemed good VS me, a controlly type of deck. I was milling, and he was milling. The deck was designed well, problem was I stuck a few key permanents in GM1. AEtherling, Lifebanes, Nightveils. Then I cast a Gary that my Ashiok previously picked up. It was bonkers... It was a interesting deck, and I got to see a card I haven't previously had played against me before in action and it was pretty effective.
2/1
Round 4 - Maze End Deck - 2 / 1 Win
The deck was insanely effective, I was blown away at it... This round was way closer then it should have been tho in all honesty. Game 1 I won easily. Game 2 he won, it was rough going. Game 3 it was way way close, I don't remember the exact play but I had an amazing play the turn he was going to finish and end it. Very fun deck to play against, insanely effective, tough to stop with counters since it's all about lands. You counter their draw/card advantage engine of course, but it was still insanely effective or he was insanely lucky with his drops.
3/1
I've been piloting this deck with a few tweeks here and there the last few weeks. Been wanting to get Grixis to work, but for now till I find a good combination I cut the Red and went traditional UB Control.
I say Traditional UB Control because there are no Devotion shenanigans going on.
The thing I think that makes this deck so strong right now are these:
1. Hand Disruption: Thoughtseize, Lifebane
2. Deck Disruption: Nightveil, Ashiok
3. Effective aggro, not a lot of creatures in the deck, but the creatures that are in the deck each have their merit.
4. Great use of Counterspells, utilizing the information of what you MILL/RFG away, plus the information at taking peeks at your opponents hand. It's not tough to get a lock on the board that you're happy with.
I find this deck pretty basic IMO, but very effective.
Here's my list with the latest tweeks:
1 AEtherling
2 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Nightveil Specter
2 Lifebane Zombie
Spells: 20
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Ultimate Price
3 Far//Away
4 Dissolve
3 Syncopate
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Lands: 25
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Dimir Guildgate
8 Swamp
6 Island
4 Tidebinder Mage
4 Gainsay
1 Negate
2 Pithing Needle
1 Notion Thief
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Elixir of Immortality
Things about this deck that I love:
1. Ashiok -- I agree with those that say that Ashiok is a bit limited and in some matchups may not be all that great. However; the thing I love most about Ashiok is it's a wild card. Just like Discard Spells can disrupt your opponents hand, well Ashiok disrupts your opponents top decks, disrupts your opponents deck! Even in the Control Matchup if you land say a UW Control players AEtherling or 2, if that's all they really run for creatures, you're pretty much hosing them to the point of them probably scooping. Ashiok absolutely has it's usefulness in a deck like this and I think when combined with the disruptive capabilities of Nightveil Specter, it's a 1, 2 punch of Library hate to go along with the Permission and Hand Disruption, it's a powerful combination.
2. Don't sleep on Prognostic Sphinx, once you drop a Sphinx to go along with a Nightveil Specter or 2, at this point everything you have in your hand can be used to pitch to the Sphinx to keep that engine going. Sit behind that wall and goto work and hoard the counter spells behind it. It's a great dig to combine with Jace to find AEtherling. Combined with Jace it's so amazing too. Plus with Jace, take the value pick of 2 cards to fill your hand back up and to have PITCH fodder... Or attack with Prognostic, SCRY3, then plus Jace to get a great looking 3 off him. Both of these 2 together really put in work.
3. Nightveil Specter is bonkers! It's not the easiest creature to deal with in the current meta game, atleast for my shop but even on the bigger stage. The fun thing is when you stick a Nightveil on Turn 3, it absolutely needs killed right then and there or it starts really putting in work and could get real nasty real quick.
I love this deck right now!! It seems pretty strong and so far I've had great success with it.
A few things I don't like about it:
Here's my list for comparison:
4 Nightveil Specter
2 Ætherling
Planeswalkers (6)
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
Removal (12)
3 Far/Away
3 Devour Flesh
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Dissolve
3 Syncopate
3 Thoughtseize
Land (26) [19U, 18B]
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Dimir Guildgate
8 Island
7 Swamp
2 Pithing Needle
4 Gainsay
2 Negate
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Notion Thief
3 Tidebinder Mage
2 Lifebane Zombie
I still don't like the curve (too many 3-drops) and lack of draw spells -- so consider it work in progress.
The AVG Cost of the deck is 2.8, I fail to see how 25 lands is not enough?
Of all the games I've played with this deck, I believe I've only ever been mana screwed twice?
25 lands is sufficient... There is only 1 6 drop in the whole deck.
I hit it just fine.
My meta is skewed? LOL
I guess all Meta at all shops are the same?
All meta at all events are the same?
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant...
Lifebane Zombie is indeed a Meta call... I should of specified that when I was talking about my deck, just kinda thought that would be obvious.
Again, this is a Meta Call over Doom Blade.
Did you see that I faced 2 Mono Black decks in my rounds on Friday.
There's a few MBD running around, a few UB Devotion lists running around with Nightveils.
I realize Ultimate Price doesn't hit Nightveils, but overall Ultimate Price hits more and whatever it doesn't Hero's Downfall cleans up the rest.
I still have AEtherling, I'm guessing you would have me run more AEtherlings.
THIS - is a valid argument I'll give you that.
Thing is, generally 1 AEtherling is all you need. I'm considering 1 more in the sideboard but all in all 1 AEtherling is really all you need as long as it's played right. I don't want to muck up the deck with any more then 1 6 CMC spell. On top of that while I'm playing the early Game, I really don't care to see an AEtherling sitting around in my hand for it to be Thoughtseized out.
I've considered going to 2, but opted to give me the Prognostic Digging power instead.
I realize you said your list is rough and you don't even like it...
You realize you have 3 Thoughtseize slotted in the main right?
1 more isn't making that much of a difference... trust me.
All I want to TRY and guarantee is that I have great chances of having 1 Thoughtseize in the first 3 Turns. Rarely am I that lucky that I'm getting multiple Thoughtseize in a game to have to worry about the Life Loss.
Its minimal... IN a Control deck, your life is used as a tool.
Personally I like the 2 MoW over the Sphinxes as they work well with your Tidebinders out of the board and are just good value creatures by themselves.
Can't say I like Elixir, you really don't have the inevitability that Revelation decks have against the more aggressive lists, not bad against control mirrors I guess but not really an exciting card.
Fair points all around!
To be fair, I just really want to play Thoughtseize!
Thoughtseize attacking my opponents hand while backing it up with Permission + Mill/Exile just seems like a pretty strong combination for a lot of decks with solid strategies. It's a full deck disruption, not just hand disruption or mill, both together.
I agree, the life lost is minimal and with all the rest of the removal/permission and creatures putting in work, it rarely becomes a problem.
I've even gotten to the point that I rarely side out Thoughtseize in any matchups as it can be an effective hoser for any deck.
As far as loading up on Cheaper Removal though instead of Thoughtseize, I believe that would just muck up the deck with potentially dead cards in the main. Nightveils are pretty effective at playing Defense and Prognostic Sphinx also can do the same. The removal that I have is pretty effective with keeping problem creatures off the board while Jace + keeps anything small irrelevant.
So I don't think a case can be made that more removal is really needed...
Sure there are those Blitz Aggro decks and so I do have some extra ways of dealing with some of those aggro decks as insurance in the side.
As for MoW, I do like that option a lot. I think this suggestion definitely has a lot of merit to it. The reason I think I avoided any Devotion types of cards is to avoid any devotion stereotypes. It's funny, people still think I'm playing Devotion, but when it never comes up, they realize it's a traditional UB Control list. If I were to add any Devotion to the deck, it would def be MoW, I think it could be pretty effective and it'll keep the avg cost of the deck low since it's cheaper then Prognostic. I like the Prognostic synergy though and scrying 3 is very strong IMHO. I'm def considering it thought.
And yea, Elixir is just to go up against Control. I realize it's not as good when I'm not packing Revelations and such, but it's still pretty good in those matchups to reset the game. Maybe instead of Elixir, just go with another Notion Thief tho.
I'm not saying don't play Thoughtseize but it's hardly the bees knees, especially in a less proactive list such as this one. I just like TS more in situations where it enables you to power out threats such as Pack Rat/ Demon etc and tend to like removal better in reactionary lists.
Could possibly see Zombie moving to the board in place of Pack Rat or more draw (Opportunity) to give you more powerful threats/ better draws late game, unless your meta warrants MB Zombie in which case that's probably fine too.
I meant that it seemed targetted towards your local meta. Which is great, of course.
Mono-black devotion tends to play Devour Flesh, and that is the reason I don't play the Sphinx. That and losing to Ætherling against Mono-blue (after sideboarding).