I'm really diggin perilous vault, it's a good enabler for aetherling since ub control's weakness was the inability to deal with resolved/threatening non-creature permanents. Gonna start here and tune it accordingly, dimir control will be my project for now
I'm really diggin perilous vault, it's a good enabler for aetherling since ub control's weakness was the inability to deal with resolved/threatening non-creature permanents. Gonna start here and tune it accordingly, dimir control will be my project for now
Vault is definitely an answer we were looking for. I dabbled in splashing white for a while and vault means I don't need it. Unfortunately, dropping and cracking is basically going to be a tap out for 4 in a lot more situations than I think we will care for, but I think it will shine more than flop.
I definitely like the direction your build is going. I would suggest some more creatures as blockers, since we are naturally weak to aggro(thus all the instant speed removal). Jace also gives us a great draw engine and a way to stifle 1/x creature swarms like Elspeth and Raise the Alarm tokens. 3 Aetherling is a bit overboard since a 6 cms is taking 3 slots, and you never need two copies on the field. If you swing him for 8, you typically only need two turns after he resolves. Pithing Needle, and later Phyrexian Revoker, is priceless against planeswalkers from the board. Ashiok in a couple board slots will make basically every control matchup a 2-0. Font of Fortunes can work great as a cheaper draw spell and can help hit lands and answers a little easier than divination, however Divination is still a good draw spell. Ingenuity feels like Inspiration + 1, but it is instant speed draw 3. 4 Thoughtseize will either lose you too much life(up to 8) or give you dead draws. Play Mutavault as long as you can, I only like 3, but if you run Urborg, 4 is as easy as it gets to play 4 and not be color screwed. Lastly, AEtherspouts is also an excellent way to reset any hyper aggro decks. I'm going to run 3.
I've taken a bit of a sabbatical from standard, between FNM drafts, and playing modern more lately. I'm going to start playtesting some things like Vault and Spouts, and I'll get back here with some results.
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It's only a baseline for now and it's going to be tuned. I'm giving my reasoning for the card choices/mana base not as a defense to criticism (I welcome criticism), but as a reason/explanation so they make more sense. I also forgot to include jace in the list I posted, made sure to edit that post since it's running the full playset actually
3 of anything means you want to see the copy at least once every game, so even though I only need one aetherling to win, I want to consistently see one. You could be right for sure, but I always like to start out with 3 of a card that's pinnacle to winning and then move down from there. I can see aetherling # 3 being replaced with perilous vault #4. It's a tricky situation since we only want to see one, but we want to see 1 every game so I'm sticking with 3 for now
Adding more creatures would be a non-bo with both perilous vault, I'd rather just maximize on control cards to keep the board state clear while having virtual card advantage
With perilous vault, it doesn't matter if you tap out during your own turn since the next turn it's going to exile whatever your opponent plays anyway
Wasn't digging aetherspouts during the playtesting, it's less cross-applicable than vault and aggro players just play around it, they can also just drop whatever they want in the second main phase. I'd rather just dedicate jace's ingenuity to that slot. Vault is a huge enable for aetherling for a couple reasons: Keeps the board clear, and prevents pithing needle/revoker from neutralizing the ling
No mutavaults since we need 19 sources of each color to play downfall/dissolve on t3 consistently. Mutavault would just hurt that gameplan. We even need 18 of our sources to be blue in order to play a t4 jace consistently. I would consider mutavault if I replace downfall with far//away and dissolve with psychic strike, but that would hurt the power level of the spells themself. Gotta evaluate if it's really worth it. In the end, I don't think mutavault is worth sitting on a dissolve you can't cast while on the draw against an opposing t4 desecration demon/jace/xenagos ect
On urborg/mutavault, that can lead to a bust due to mana screw since you really have to bank on getting urborg for that to be a thing. I'm not playing urborg since it can potentially fix my opponent's mana and I already enough (19) black to hit the color requirements
Seize is just too good, it's worth the lifeloss unless you're up against burn and it's the main reason to be playing UB over UW or esper/grixis (which can't really afford to play seize with the mana requirements/inconsistency/shocks). Early game disruption is very important, then trading 1 for 1 until you land a jace/vault/jace's ingenuity to bury them in card advantage. It has extra merit here since we don't have to worry at all about seizing opposing removal, just win cons and counter spells
Ratchet bomb is in the side for the super aggressive strategies, it's better than syncopate at least while at the same time I would be expecting to face some number of pithing needle/revoker if perilous vault isn't enough to stop that
Duress replaces seize for the burn matchup and devour flesh for control
This deck has a lot of killers for the midrange/mbd/control matchups, it's very good against them maindeck. Main concern is burn and aggro
It's only a baseline for now and it's going to be tuned. I'm giving my reasoning for the card choices/mana base not as a defense to criticism (I welcome criticism), but as a reason/explanation so they make more sense.
Also, meant to post at the bottom, "This is the best advice I can give, and hopefully it can help with any decisions you make." However, I was using my phone to post and my phone hates this forum. I've now switched to the comp, so that won't be an issue. I did figure that it was just a basic decklist and that you would fine tune it later, thats the only reason I added so many suggestions. All in all I like the direction you're headed.
3 of anything means you want to see the copy at least once every game, so even though I only need one aetherling to win, I want to consistently see one.
I definitely agree, however, my list in previous posts only runs 1, I had originally ran 2, but saw it too often. Being a control deck, you need card advantage like its life support, and diggin through your deck via scry effects, Jace AoT -2 and Draw spells will get you to Aetherling every time. You really only want it in your hand at all when your ready to cast it, because if its there too long it can get striped, you can be forced to cast it in a pinch leaving you without a kill/counter/wipe spell.
With perilous vault, it doesn't matter if you tap out during your own turn since the next turn it's going to exile whatever your opponent plays anyway.
I'm not saying it's always going to be bad or forced by any means, what I mean is you can easily leave yourself open to all sorts of disadvantage by tapping out turn 4 with no immediate effect. I plan on also running 2 - 3 Vaults myself, I just don't want to have to rely on that as my only sweeper. Plus, if you don't hit that fifth land on turn 5, it gives your opponent an opportunity to refill their hand with creatures while you dig for a land, deal damage with attackers, and not over commit, knowing that they're stuff is going to get exiled as soon as you hit that fifth land. Overall, this is just some of the things I try to consider, in order to be able to have to best chances in those unfavorable situations that can arise.
Wasn't digging aetherspouts during the playtesting, it's less cross-applicable than vault and aggro players just play around it, they can also just drop whatever they want in the second main phase. I'd rather just dedicate jace's ingenuity to that slot.
You could be spot on, and I have done 0 playtesting on AEtherspouts and Vault as of yet. I tend to sit back and watch the meta form for a couple weeks. I know you could be exactly right about it, I just think that at instant speed and putting creatures back on or under the library(with all the scry creatures will end up on the bottom at times). But think of it this way. Turn 4 you tap out for Vault with AEtherspouts in hand, and you hit that 5th land turn 5. They have like 4 hasters and you're at like 12 life. It makes you feel pretty solid about what's going on. You aren't forced to exile the vault, or cast the Spouts, and if they don't over-commit and refill a bit, you have another great answer for when they refill the board. Obviously, this is coming from speculation, but I'll let you know how well they work together, since I already planned on trying it myself.
No mutavaults since we need 19 sources of each color to play downfall/dissolve on t3 consistently. Mutavault would just hurt that gameplan. We even need 18 of our sources to be blue in order to play a t4 jace consistently. I would consider mutavault if I replace downfall with far//away and dissolve with psychic strike, but that would hurt the power level of the spells themselves. Gotta evaluate if it's really worth it. In the end, I don't think mutavault is worth sitting on a dissolve you can't cast while on the draw against an opposing t4 desecration demon/jace/xenagos ect
I, and basically everyone else I've disscussed this with, have seen that Mutavault is a champ and gives you another way to win. Running 3 Aetherling only gives you 1 wincon in your build, and I've been on the recieving end of a Slaughter Games in G2. It's not fun. I've won several matches with a pair of Vaults and an Omenspeaker. As for Urborg, if you run an island or two more than swamps, you can fix yourself and still have that blue sources for Dissolve/Dissipate. It's only going to hurt them more than yourself if you fix everyone's black sources if you can cast Devour Flesh and Hero's Downfall or Bile Blight(which can deal with Emblemed Elspeth Tokens and indestructibles), that you otherwise would have given them an extra turn to deal with the creatures you're killing. It's not necessarily a must have, but since it and your basic Islands come into play untapped as essentially Underground Sea, I feel it's worth at least consideration.
On urborg/mutavault, that can lead to a bust due to mana screw since you really have to bank on getting urborg for that to be a thing. I'm not playing urborg since it can potentially fix my opponent's mana and I already enough (19) black to hit the color requirements
It essentially will change your mana base considerably. Again, it's a not a must, but it's something to think about.
Seize is just too good, it's worth the lifeloss unless you're up against burn and it's the main reason to be playing UB over UW or esper (which can't really afford to play seize). Early game disruption is very important, then trading 1 for 1 until you land a jace/vault/jace's ingenuity to bury them in card advantage
Being that Aggro is kinda heavy at the moment, and Burn is a horrible matchup for us, those matchups that you need to work the hardest to win are the ones where Toughtseize will fall flat. This was debated heavily, and I eventually lost my side of the arguement, which was where you are now. That essentially without any source of lifegain, you will kill yourself in those matchups by running too many. Urborg + Radiant Fountain makes a Thoughtseize cost no life in the end. I just don't know about Fountain. You could leave all for and try a 1 - 2 of Prognostic Sphinx, you can cast it when you need it, and pitch it when you don't and hexproof your Sphinx. Thoughtsieze is another one of those cards that falls flat in our weak matchups and shines where we already have the advantage.
Ratchet bomb is in the side for the super aggressive strategies, it's better than syncopate at least
Duress replaces seize for the burn matchup and devour flesh for control
I like Duress against burn, but I just want a better game 1 in a matchup that already throws game 1 most of the time. Plus, in response they will typically throw they're biggest castable burnspell at you to avoid pitching damage, and force you to either whiff or take a Magma Spray or Seering Blood that they can't really even use as easily. I usually use dispel. Ratchet Bomb is great, but I'm not sure we can sacrifice sideboard utility to a 4 of on any spell. If you'll consider siding 4, you can typically put some in the main and some in the board.
This deck has a lot of killers for the midrange/mbd/control matchups, it's very good against them maindeck. Main concern is burn and aggro
Absolutely, thats why the only cards I'm even looking at discussing are things that need to change to help against aggro and burn. The other things that help against everything, and are helping us get to most of our wins aren't even something I'm going to bring up any farther than. "Yup, I'd tap (for) that." ;-)
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If you're playing up against a deck that's running slaughter games, chances are that perilous vault wouldn't be needed so much against that deck. I would replace vault with prognostic sphinx g2 if I'm expecting that. There are a few matchups where I would totally replace vault with sphinx, including burn since vault is pretty weak against that type of deck. Odd spectrum of decks but against burn, control, and dega I would totally side them in over vault. Sphinx will make sure that your top decks are way more potent in those matches, and against burn you have to be able to put them on a shorter clock at the same time. uw/x will be boarding out their removal and br/x midrange can't deal with sphinx while vault won't really be a necessity
Bile blight is way better than ratcher bomb against aggro, don't know what I was thinking
But yeah I think I have a decent baseline figured out for the sb, I don't like running 1/2 copies in the sideboard, I'd rather have enough copies of each card to support a gameplan than hope I draw 1 against the odds
Looks like a solid base over all, looks like the fine/meta tuning phase can begin.
EDIT: Forgot to mention Indulgent Tormentor. Works with Prog Sphinx, if they don't want you to draw he can drop them 8 life after no draw and successful combat. Real value engine to look at after rotation in October.
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This is the main list I been working on since m15 with a sneaky Garruk hiding in there which catches people off... Obvi could be cut but testing it has been fun.
This is the main list I been working on since m15 with a sneaky Garruk hiding in there which catches people off... Obvi could be cut but testing it has been fun.
I like this list, I'm gonna try it out. Lili and Jace -2 works together great. I'm not sure about The new Garry without ramp.
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Yeah he could be cut as well as the lands adjusted but the times where I did bring him in hitting the 1 green to bring him out was never an issue. Also P.Vault is awesome against mono b.
Yeah he could be cut as well as the lands adjusted but the times where I did bring him in hitting the 1 green to bring him out was never an issue. Also P.Vault is awesome against mono b.
What match up do you bring him in?
I love vault in general.
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Why not just run Downfall? You fix colors that way it hits creatures, so you can main deck it. And it's instant speed and a lot less mana.
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Here's the decklist I've been using for the last couple of weeks. Tested it at FNMs and it went 2-1-1 and 2-2-0. The only loses I've had are to mono-green and boss sligh. The list started off as a copy of a Patrick Chapin idea from one of his SCG articles.
Aetherspouts has been good, but I dropped it from 3 to 2 to make room for a Cyclonic Rift as there were times when I needed to get rid of other permanents and not just those turned sideways. Perilous Vault has put the brakes on a lot of games while the opponent tries to work around it. Typically, the win condition is whatever Ashiok can grab, but getting to ultimates for the PWs is not that unusualy (man, do I wish Tamiyo was still in standard). Anyway, I'd like to take this deck to our LGSs game day, so if you can see any improvements, please let me know!
Here's the decklist I've been using for the last couple of weeks. Tested it at FNMs and it went 2-1-1 and 2-2-0. The only loses I've had are to mono-green and boss sligh. The list started off as a copy of a Patrick Chapin idea from one of his SCG articles.
Aetherspouts has been good, but I dropped it from 3 to 2 to make room for a Cyclonic Rift as there were times when I needed to get rid of other permanents and not just those turned sideways. Perilous Vault has put the brakes on a lot of games while the opponent tries to work around it. Typically, the win condition is whatever Ashiok can grab, but getting to ultimates for the PWs is not that unusualy (man, do I wish Tamiyo was still in standard). Anyway, I'd like to take this deck to our LGSs game day, so if you can see any improvements, please let me know!
On gameday i went against a Bant Control deck that honestly got me interested in playing control decks or at least trying them out. I was wondering why no one played Thassa, God of the Sea for the scry in this deck though?
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Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
@tengu, sorry I was a bit late getting to you on that. How did Gameday end up going?
@moondemon While Thassa is a great card, it's not essential, I'd rather just run Divination in that slot, since rather than looking, it just puts 2 cards straight in your hand. Since most control builds(not counting Shoota's MoW list) Devotion stays pretty low, and permanents aren't something we rely on sticking around unless they're the Win. Essentially Thassa doesn't do much more than make things unblockable(which Aetherling does himself) and Scry 1, and if you're runnig Thassa for the Scry, why not just run Sigilled Starfish? Keep in mind, Bant's removal is mainly Exiling or Sweeping, with some counter control as well. Kiora fogs a permanent every turn. Elspeth Can just blow things away without touching her boys. Dimir has to run a bit differently than that. Our prevention methods are almost equal parts counterspell and Thoughtsieze/Duress. While Our removal is mostly spot or occasionally trading. Perilous Vault in my opinion has been the greatest thing we could have asked for, then Aetherspouts put my Ashiok's back in the Maindeck. Aetherspouts on turn 5, just to let them put 3 creatures on top with an "Okay, don't know why I'd put them on the bottom", and Turn 6 Dropping an Ashiok, leaving mana open for Dissolve or Dissipate, and Exiling a creature to get to a much faster Wincon. So if you see the difference, they're are much different ways to go about controlling the game. I'm heading out for a few hours, when I get back, I'll edit in an update with my current list and thoughts on some of the new cards with some actual playtest information.
The Board is as optimized as I can get for my meta, I dropped Font of Fortunes, because essentially it's worse than Divination, paying up front just leaves me open to not have a kill spell ready. Speaking of Divination, I'm considering running an Opportunity in place of Whelming Wave, and then swapping over to Jace's Ingenuity post rotation, because I have no real way of refilling my hand, and I've run into a couple matchups were I have been top decking while gaining board control and then lose it, and subsequently the match. It doesn't matter how much I scry if I don't get the cards in hand that I need to hold. Other than that, I'm loving Vault and Spouts, I've done Spouts turn 5, opponent is like "You only saved it for a turn" and then went to Turn 6 dropped a land, held a Dissolve, and dropped Ashiok to steal a Polukranos and win with it. Basically Spouts is exactly what I was looking for to help Ashiok beat down aggro as well as it does against Control. Hopefully there will be a decent black or blue draw spell/engine in KTK that isn't multicolor like Rev. One can only hope for a new Tamiyo with soem better draw than the last one. Again, sorry that took so long. If not, I'll try boarding Thoughtseize for matches I can use the hand destruction, and maindecking Read the Bones instead. Anyway, I'll keep updated more often.
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So for the past few weeks I've played Grixis, it was great when my shop was heavy heavy agro, but my shop has shifted...
So I wanted to try something that was not 3 Colors, and something that could hang against the popular Rabble Red, while still putting up a very strong game VS Control.
I felt UB was a good way to go... Between playing BUG Walker Control and Grixis, I felt this was a good medium.
With that being said, here's the initial list I came up with...
I wanted so much to do a Perilous Control deck and feature Perilous Vault heavily, but it just didn't look right...
I wanted to be more Permission Based, so tapping out on Turn 4 for Perilous Vault felt off, then again I would be tapping out Turn 4 more often then not for Jace, so perhaps I tweek it a bit.
I'm not sure that I like 4 AEtherspouts, never been a fan of 4; but with a deck like this I think it works.
I really like Ashiok + fully featured AEtherspouts VS Aggro/Midrange decks. I like Ashiok VS Control as well.
Dimir Charm is something I haven't seen ran in awhile, since Rabble Red is making a big push and other fast agro decks are still doing well, Dimir Charm in those matchups is a suitable removal spell. VS other decks, it shines as it'll counter things like Thoughtseize or Sorcery Speed burn spells; or it can help to tweek our draw, or to ruin a scry that your opponent setup. Seems ok.
Tyrant's Machine is something new, I'm not sure how good it is, but I think it has some viability. Perhaps it might be better to just have a removal spell, but who knows. I would like to try it out.
I lkiek the 3 aetherspouts, I thought about going up 1 in my build. I don't know about Underworld COnnections, its too much for this deck to tap 3 on your turn, and the life loss is going to kill you in our aggro matchups. I might try it out on Trice, because it is still a draw engine and your running an elixir. While Jace isn't the best, he helps a ton of a lot for drawing cards if you can get it to stick. I've even on occasion -2 jace 2 turns in a row, to do it again with another and refill my hand with all the right pieces. I would, personally, run 2 Sphinx and 1 Aetherling, since 2 6 cmc win cons that can still be stripped with a G2 Slaughter Games, however I haven't seen Games in a bit. I'm not totally against 2 Aetherling, I've just found it's too many in my build. I really can't say enough for Omenspeaker, I've won lots of games with them paired with Mutavaults, and the Scry 2 is good at any point in the game. Chump blocking is never a bad trade. I really really really suggest Omenspeakers.
All in all it does look pretty solid, I would just watch for too much life loss from Connections and make sure you aren't dead drawing an Aetherling too early too often. You might want to consider dropping an Aetherling for an Opportunity if your seeing him too much.
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I've found in play testing I never see 1 (bad luck maybe) but 2 was a decent amount. Though I may try mixing the quantities.
What if I -3 Underworld Connections and +1 Read the Bones +2 Opportunity
Omen Speaker looks cool, but problem I see is freeing up 4 slots for it
So for the past few weeks I've played Grixis, it was great when my shop was heavy heavy agro, but my shop has shifted...
So I wanted to try something that was not 3 Colors, and something that could hang against the popular Rabble Red, while still putting up a very strong game VS Control.
I felt UB was a good way to go... Between playing BUG Walker Control and Grixis, I felt this was a good medium.
With that being said, here's the initial list I came up with...
I wanted so much to do a Perilous Control deck and feature Perilous Vault heavily, but it just didn't look right...
I wanted to be more Permission Based, so tapping out on Turn 4 for Perilous Vault felt off, then again I would be tapping out Turn 4 more often then not for Jace, so perhaps I tweek it a bit.
I'm not sure that I like 4 AEtherspouts, never been a fan of 4; but with a deck like this I think it works.
I really like Ashiok + fully featured AEtherspouts VS Aggro/Midrange decks. I like Ashiok VS Control as well.
Dimir Charm is something I haven't seen ran in awhile, since Rabble Red is making a big push and other fast agro decks are still doing well, Dimir Charm in those matchups is a suitable removal spell. VS other decks, it shines as it'll counter things like Thoughtseize or Sorcery Speed burn spells; or it can help to tweek our draw, or to ruin a scry that your opponent setup. Seems ok.
Tyrant's Machine is something new, I'm not sure how good it is, but I think it has some viability. Perhaps it might be better to just have a removal spell, but who knows. I would like to try it out.
Beyond that, it's pretty straight forward.
Sorry it took me so long to get to you on this, I saw it a few days ago and I've been kind of in and out on Sally lately. Yeah UB is pretty bread and butter for control if you ask me. You've got the heart of hard removal and counterspells right there, and both colors have really solid card draw options too. For permission based Your build looks pretty good, but I just don't see any bounce spells. Peel From Reality works great with Omenspeaker to bascially double block, even ridding any tramplers, and letting you fire off another Scry 2 next turn. If you don't want to free up that many slots, [v]Void Snare[/c] may end up turning into an essential piece to deal with threats that already hit the board. I know it is a Sorcery, but only costing really makes up for the lack of speed, imo. My only serious Question is, why Jace, the Living Guildpact? I absolutely hate him. His +1 doesn't net you any cards, his Void Snare is too over costed to deal with threats more than once, and if you actually use his Ult it won't end the game like Architect does, but you've probably already got the game anyway. Ashiok's Ult will hit more often, and its strictly better without drawing you the cards. I plan on freeing up 2 slots from Architect for Ingenuity's after roll out, and my 3rd slot will go to a 3rd Ashiok. But Overall, you're shell looks really great, but if you want to run permission style, I highly suggest running some type of bounce spell. Putting Peel + Omen would be a lot hard to move around, but if I added Void Snare, I would -1 Jace, tLG, -1 Ult Price, -1 Thoughtseize, +3 Void Snare, and those choices are tough enough. I dunno, maybe not a Thoughtseize, maybe something else. Lol, yeah, thats kind of a tough call.
EDIT: I'm dumb, Keep Thoughsieze, the hand distruction is too valueable for persmission, drop an Aetherspouts, 3 should be plenty. Completely forgot you were running 4 and were thinking of dropping from 4.-1 Ult Price, -1 Jace 5.0, -1 Aetherspouts, +3 Void Snare seems like the direction I would go.
I've found in play testing I never see 1 (bad luck maybe) but 2 was a decent amount. Though I may try mixing the quantities.
What if I -3 Underworld Connections and +1 Read the Bones +2 Opportunity
Omenspeaker looks cool, but problem I see is freeing up 4 slots for it
Yeah, its tough fitting 4-of on anything. 3-ofs are hard enough to include, as seen above. When I updated my build when Innistrad was rolling out, it was, as roll outs go, much easier to find slots. I kinda build the creture base around 4-of Speaker, and 2-of Aetherling(which since dropped to 1), so it may just be easier to do it then, or just consider whats rolling out. It's probably better to test out the draw engine change first anyway, it might be tougher to see how things are working if you work in 4 Omenspeaker while changing Connections out for Read the Bones and Opportunity.
I think I have an idea for how I would run a Permission based build in the current standard, I'm gonna throw it together on Trice and try out a match or two. I'll let you guys know what I think.
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Yeah UB is pretty bread and butter for control if you ask me. You've got the heart of hard removal and counterspells right there, and both colors have really solid card draw options too.
I agree, it's pretty solid and I think it's even more solid because it carries a 2 Color Manabase.
I think BUG is legit too; but def comes down to if I cut the Green and only go 2, I think UB is the place to be!
For permission based Your build looks pretty good, but I just don't see any bounce spells. Peel From Reality works great with Omenspeaker to bascially double block, even ridding any tramplers, and letting you fire off another Scry 2 next turn. If you don't want to free up that many slots, Void Snare may end up turning into an essential piece to deal with threats that already hit the board. I know it is a Sorcery, but only costing really makes up for the lack of speed, imo.
Well there is Cyclonic Rift?
That's about as good as it gets for Bounce, early it bounces 1 thing while late it bounces everything.
I do see your point though, something else needs to be in here; perhaps that's why I've seen people going with a few Cyclonic Rift.
That one seems pretty good in general, sure it costs 1U early; but I thinks fine.
So perhaps I add another Rift or 2 to give me 2 or 3 total.
My only serious Question is, why Jace, the Living Guildpact? I absolutely hate him. His +1 doesn't net you any cards, his Void Snare is too over costed to deal with threats more than once, and if you actually use his Ult it won't end the game like Architect does, but you've probably already got the game anyway. Ashiok's Ult will hit more often, and its strictly better without drawing you the cards.
You know, in testing I have found Jace, Living Guildpact to be AMAZING in BUG, and even in Grixis.
However; I'm finding him pretty poor in UB.
I would almost rather it be another Rift or something if I really want the BOUNCE out of it.
In Grixis we have Rakdos's Return, you bounce something and empty their hand.
In BUG it works well too...
But in UB where we don't have much to force them to Discard what you bounce, it seems lacking.
I mean since this is a Permission based UB Control, I suppose I could Bounce something and then hold back a Counterspell.
So it could be useful, but not nearly as useful hence why I only run 1.
I'll have to consider these suggestions, you're probably right in UB it is probably better to replace it with something else.
I plan on freeing up 2 slots from Architect for Ingenuity's after roll out, and my 3rd slot will go to a 3rd Ashiok.
Yea it does seem pretty solid, it's been playing well.
I didn't get to give it a TEST RUN yesterday; so my first run with it will be for FNM Friday.
But it does seem to have everything that we would need; even the sideboard as limited as it MAY look, it seems to have what we would need and it's simple.
I like simple! LOL
As far as Ashiok is concerned, I honestly want 4 I think...
It's a solid Turn 3 Drop that will generate a ton of hate right off the bat...
VS Control it disrupts.
VS Aggro it can provide us defense/threats to hold them back.
I like it no matter the matchup, sure some matchups maybe perhaps you don't need 3 or 4, you could side out 1 or 2, but all in all I like it as long as you have the support package to make it work.
I'm also a big fan of AEtherspouts + Ashiok; really puts your opponent in a BIND!
But Overall, you're shell looks really great, but if you want to run permission style, I highly suggest running some type of bounce spell. Putting Peel + Omen would be a lot hard to move around, but if I added Void Snare, I would -1 Jace, tLG, -1 Ult Price, -1 Thoughtseize, +3 Void Snare, and those choices are tough enough. I dunno, maybe not a Thoughtseize, maybe something else. Lol, yeah, thats kind of a tough call.
EDIT: I'm dumb, Keep Thoughsieze, the hand distruction is too valueable for persmission, drop an Aetherspouts, 3 should be plenty. Completely forgot you were running 4 and were thinking of dropping from 4.-1 Ult Price, -1 Jace 5.0, -1 Aetherspouts, +3 Void Snare seems like the direction I would go.
Yea I don't want to Cut Thoughtseize; I like Thoughtseize for sure with the Counter Package, to be honest I would like to find room for the 4th Mainboard.
I think with the permission package, Thoughtseize would put in some good work in any matchup including BURN.
I'll take a look at Void Snare, and some of the others you suggested and see what I like.
I have played a Dimir shell the past three weeks and I have gone 4-1 twice and 5-0 the last time. I went the more mid range route and ran 3 nightveils and 4 master of waves just mainly due to how hard those cards are to deal with for a lot of match ups. I also went with 2 stain the mind in the SB honestly it has been an MVP card against most control naming rev usually means its game over.
Sounds good. Wanna post the list. My meta has tuned against me quite a bit so I need to change things up again.
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On Tyrant's Machine, I'm not too sure, it's good to lock down a single creature, but it's a lot of mana to do that. It's great in limited, but I think it's too expensive an activation for constructed. I would try it out and see if it helps or falls flat, I doubt it will be in any grey area on that one. Just keep an eye out on it's performance, but I honestly wouldn't run it, especially not with aggro flodding the current meta.
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On Tyrant's Machine, I'm not too sure, it's good to lock down a single creature, but it's a lot of mana to do that. It's great in limited, but I think it's too expensive an activation for constructed. I would try it out and see if it helps or falls flat, I doubt it will be in any grey area on that one. Just keep an eye out on it's performance, but I honestly wouldn't run it, especially not with aggro flodding the current meta.
Oh I'm not running it right now in my most current list; but I have run it before and it has come in handy.
It's not as expensive as you would think though; especially when most of our spells are 2 and 3 cost... atleast the permission based spells.
Also when 95% of the spells are Instant speed too; it fits ok.
I've tried it out a few times and wasn't disappointed by it, but I wasn't super excited about it either.
I think ultimately I would like a removal spell; but then the problem with that is when you got stuff like Blood Baron and there's a bit of a problem dealing with it with most of our spells.
Not worried about Blood Baron, it's just 1 example.
Vault is definitely an answer we were looking for. I dabbled in splashing white for a while and vault means I don't need it. Unfortunately, dropping and cracking is basically going to be a tap out for 4 in a lot more situations than I think we will care for, but I think it will shine more than flop.
I definitely like the direction your build is going. I would suggest some more creatures as blockers, since we are naturally weak to aggro(thus all the instant speed removal). Jace also gives us a great draw engine and a way to stifle 1/x creature swarms like Elspeth and Raise the Alarm tokens. 3 Aetherling is a bit overboard since a 6 cms is taking 3 slots, and you never need two copies on the field. If you swing him for 8, you typically only need two turns after he resolves. Pithing Needle, and later Phyrexian Revoker, is priceless against planeswalkers from the board. Ashiok in a couple board slots will make basically every control matchup a 2-0. Font of Fortunes can work great as a cheaper draw spell and can help hit lands and answers a little easier than divination, however Divination is still a good draw spell. Ingenuity feels like Inspiration + 1, but it is instant speed draw 3. 4 Thoughtseize will either lose you too much life(up to 8) or give you dead draws. Play Mutavault as long as you can, I only like 3, but if you run Urborg, 4 is as easy as it gets to play 4 and not be color screwed. Lastly, AEtherspouts is also an excellent way to reset any hyper aggro decks. I'm going to run 3.
I've taken a bit of a sabbatical from standard, between FNM drafts, and playing modern more lately. I'm going to start playtesting some things like Vault and Spouts, and I'll get back here with some results.
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You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
3 of anything means you want to see the copy at least once every game, so even though I only need one aetherling to win, I want to consistently see one. You could be right for sure, but I always like to start out with 3 of a card that's pinnacle to winning and then move down from there. I can see aetherling # 3 being replaced with perilous vault #4. It's a tricky situation since we only want to see one, but we want to see 1 every game so I'm sticking with 3 for now
Adding more creatures would be a non-bo with both perilous vault, I'd rather just maximize on control cards to keep the board state clear while having virtual card advantage
With perilous vault, it doesn't matter if you tap out during your own turn since the next turn it's going to exile whatever your opponent plays anyway
Wasn't digging aetherspouts during the playtesting, it's less cross-applicable than vault and aggro players just play around it, they can also just drop whatever they want in the second main phase. I'd rather just dedicate jace's ingenuity to that slot. Vault is a huge enable for aetherling for a couple reasons: Keeps the board clear, and prevents pithing needle/revoker from neutralizing the ling
No mutavaults since we need 19 sources of each color to play downfall/dissolve on t3 consistently. Mutavault would just hurt that gameplan. We even need 18 of our sources to be blue in order to play a t4 jace consistently. I would consider mutavault if I replace downfall with far//away and dissolve with psychic strike, but that would hurt the power level of the spells themself. Gotta evaluate if it's really worth it. In the end, I don't think mutavault is worth sitting on a dissolve you can't cast while on the draw against an opposing t4 desecration demon/jace/xenagos ect
On urborg/mutavault, that can lead to a bust due to mana screw since you really have to bank on getting urborg for that to be a thing. I'm not playing urborg since it can potentially fix my opponent's mana and I already enough (19) black to hit the color requirements
Seize is just too good, it's worth the lifeloss unless you're up against burn and it's the main reason to be playing UB over UW or esper/grixis (which can't really afford to play seize with the mana requirements/inconsistency/shocks). Early game disruption is very important, then trading 1 for 1 until you land a jace/vault/jace's ingenuity to bury them in card advantage. It has extra merit here since we don't have to worry at all about seizing opposing removal, just win cons and counter spells
Ratchet bomb is in the side for the super aggressive strategies, it's better than syncopate at least while at the same time I would be expecting to face some number of pithing needle/revoker if perilous vault isn't enough to stop that
Duress replaces seize for the burn matchup and devour flesh for control
This deck has a lot of killers for the midrange/mbd/control matchups, it's very good against them maindeck. Main concern is burn and aggro
Also, meant to post at the bottom, "This is the best advice I can give, and hopefully it can help with any decisions you make." However, I was using my phone to post and my phone hates this forum. I've now switched to the comp, so that won't be an issue. I did figure that it was just a basic decklist and that you would fine tune it later, thats the only reason I added so many suggestions. All in all I like the direction you're headed.
I definitely agree, however, my list in previous posts only runs 1, I had originally ran 2, but saw it too often. Being a control deck, you need card advantage like its life support, and diggin through your deck via scry effects, Jace AoT -2 and Draw spells will get you to Aetherling every time. You really only want it in your hand at all when your ready to cast it, because if its there too long it can get striped, you can be forced to cast it in a pinch leaving you without a kill/counter/wipe spell.
I'm not saying it's always going to be bad or forced by any means, what I mean is you can easily leave yourself open to all sorts of disadvantage by tapping out turn 4 with no immediate effect. I plan on also running 2 - 3 Vaults myself, I just don't want to have to rely on that as my only sweeper. Plus, if you don't hit that fifth land on turn 5, it gives your opponent an opportunity to refill their hand with creatures while you dig for a land, deal damage with attackers, and not over commit, knowing that they're stuff is going to get exiled as soon as you hit that fifth land. Overall, this is just some of the things I try to consider, in order to be able to have to best chances in those unfavorable situations that can arise.
You could be spot on, and I have done 0 playtesting on AEtherspouts and Vault as of yet. I tend to sit back and watch the meta form for a couple weeks. I know you could be exactly right about it, I just think that at instant speed and putting creatures back on or under the library(with all the scry creatures will end up on the bottom at times). But think of it this way. Turn 4 you tap out for Vault with AEtherspouts in hand, and you hit that 5th land turn 5. They have like 4 hasters and you're at like 12 life. It makes you feel pretty solid about what's going on. You aren't forced to exile the vault, or cast the Spouts, and if they don't over-commit and refill a bit, you have another great answer for when they refill the board. Obviously, this is coming from speculation, but I'll let you know how well they work together, since I already planned on trying it myself.
I, and basically everyone else I've disscussed this with, have seen that Mutavault is a champ and gives you another way to win. Running 3 Aetherling only gives you 1 wincon in your build, and I've been on the recieving end of a Slaughter Games in G2. It's not fun. I've won several matches with a pair of Vaults and an Omenspeaker. As for Urborg, if you run an island or two more than swamps, you can fix yourself and still have that blue sources for Dissolve/Dissipate. It's only going to hurt them more than yourself if you fix everyone's black sources if you can cast Devour Flesh and Hero's Downfall or Bile Blight(which can deal with Emblemed Elspeth Tokens and indestructibles), that you otherwise would have given them an extra turn to deal with the creatures you're killing. It's not necessarily a must have, but since it and your basic Islands come into play untapped as essentially Underground Sea, I feel it's worth at least consideration.
It essentially will change your mana base considerably. Again, it's a not a must, but it's something to think about.
Being that Aggro is kinda heavy at the moment, and Burn is a horrible matchup for us, those matchups that you need to work the hardest to win are the ones where Toughtseize will fall flat. This was debated heavily, and I eventually lost my side of the arguement, which was where you are now. That essentially without any source of lifegain, you will kill yourself in those matchups by running too many. Urborg + Radiant Fountain makes a Thoughtseize cost no life in the end. I just don't know about Fountain. You could leave all for and try a 1 - 2 of Prognostic Sphinx, you can cast it when you need it, and pitch it when you don't and hexproof your Sphinx. Thoughtsieze is another one of those cards that falls flat in our weak matchups and shines where we already have the advantage.
I like Duress against burn, but I just want a better game 1 in a matchup that already throws game 1 most of the time. Plus, in response they will typically throw they're biggest castable burnspell at you to avoid pitching damage, and force you to either whiff or take a Magma Spray or Seering Blood that they can't really even use as easily. I usually use dispel. Ratchet Bomb is great, but I'm not sure we can sacrifice sideboard utility to a 4 of on any spell. If you'll consider siding 4, you can typically put some in the main and some in the board.
Absolutely, thats why the only cards I'm even looking at discussing are things that need to change to help against aggro and burn. The other things that help against everything, and are helping us get to most of our wins aren't even something I'm going to bring up any farther than. "Yup, I'd tap (for) that." ;-)
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You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Bile blight is way better than ratcher bomb against aggro, don't know what I was thinking
But yeah I think I have a decent baseline figured out for the sb, I don't like running 1/2 copies in the sideboard, I'd rather have enough copies of each card to support a gameplan than hope I draw 1 against the odds
Here is the update
3 Perilous Vault
Creatures (3)
3 Aetherling
Instants (20)
4 Syncopate
4 Devour Flesh
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Dissolve
4 Jace's Ingenuity
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
Sorcery (4)
4 Thoughtseize
Lands (26)
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dimir Guildgate
4 Watery Grave
7 Swamp
7 Island
4 Duress
4 Dispel
4 Bile Blight
3 Prognostic Sphinx
Burn
- 3 Vault
- 4 Seize
- 4 Downfall
In
+ 3 Sphinx
+ 4 Duress
+ 4 Dispel
Aggro
Out
- 4 Syncopate
- 3 Vault
+ 4 Bile Blight
+ 3 Sphinx
Dega or B/r Midrange
- 3 Vault
+ 3 Sphinx
MBD
No changes lol
Uw/x Control
- 3 Vault
- 4 D Flesh
+ 3 Sphinx
+ 4 Duress
EDIT: Forgot to mention Indulgent Tormentor. Works with Prog Sphinx, if they don't want you to draw he can drop them 8 life after no draw and successful combat. Real value engine to look at after rotation in October.
RE-EDIT: Scuttling Doom Engine and Soul of New Phyrexia make me wanna make a artifact build with Darksteel Citadel/Ensoul Artifact Combo, and Chief Engineer.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 AEtherling
Spells:32
1 Annul
2 Syncopate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Doom Blade
1 Negate
1 Ultimate Price
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Dissolve
1 Far // Away
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Perilous Vault
2 AEtherspouts
4 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Liliana Vess
5 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Watery Grave
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Dispel
3 Dimir Charm
1 Negate
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ultimate Price
4 Nightveil Specter
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
I like this list, I'm gonna try it out. Lili and Jace -2 works together great. I'm not sure about The new Garry without ramp.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
What match up do you bring him in?
I love vault in general.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Bile Blight
1x Cyclonic Rift
4x Dimir Guildgate
4x Dissolve
2x Drown in Sorrow
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Island
2x Jace's Ingenuity
4x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Liliana Vess
4x Mutavault
1x Opportunity
2x Perilous Vault
5x Swamp
2x Syncopate
4x Temple of Deceit
2x Ætherspouts
4x Thoughtseize
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Watery Grave
1x Bile Blight
1x Dimir Charm
1x Doom Blade
2x Duress
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Negate
4x Pharika's Cure
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
Aetherspouts has been good, but I dropped it from 3 to 2 to make room for a Cyclonic Rift as there were times when I needed to get rid of other permanents and not just those turned sideways. Perilous Vault has put the brakes on a lot of games while the opponent tries to work around it. Typically, the win condition is whatever Ashiok can grab, but getting to ultimates for the PWs is not that unusualy (man, do I wish Tamiyo was still in standard). Anyway, I'd like to take this deck to our LGSs game day, so if you can see any improvements, please let me know!
On gameday i went against a Bant Control deck that honestly got me interested in playing control decks or at least trying them out. I was wondering why no one played Thassa, God of the Sea for the scry in this deck though?
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
@moondemon While Thassa is a great card, it's not essential, I'd rather just run Divination in that slot, since rather than looking, it just puts 2 cards straight in your hand. Since most control builds(not counting Shoota's MoW list) Devotion stays pretty low, and permanents aren't something we rely on sticking around unless they're the Win. Essentially Thassa doesn't do much more than make things unblockable(which Aetherling does himself) and Scry 1, and if you're runnig Thassa for the Scry, why not just run Sigilled Starfish? Keep in mind, Bant's removal is mainly Exiling or Sweeping, with some counter control as well. Kiora fogs a permanent every turn. Elspeth Can just blow things away without touching her boys. Dimir has to run a bit differently than that. Our prevention methods are almost equal parts counterspell and Thoughtsieze/Duress. While Our removal is mostly spot or occasionally trading. Perilous Vault in my opinion has been the greatest thing we could have asked for, then Aetherspouts put my Ashiok's back in the Maindeck. Aetherspouts on turn 5, just to let them put 3 creatures on top with an "Okay, don't know why I'd put them on the bottom", and Turn 6 Dropping an Ashiok, leaving mana open for Dissolve or Dissipate, and Exiling a creature to get to a much faster Wincon. So if you see the difference, they're are much different ways to go about controlling the game. I'm heading out for a few hours, when I get back, I'll edit in an update with my current list and thoughts on some of the new cards with some actual playtest information.
EDIT: Update, sorry this took so long.
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Dimir Guildgate
6 Island
3 Swamp
3 Mutavault
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
1 Aetherling
4 Omenspeaker
Instant
2 Bile Blight
2 Doom Blade
3 Dissolve
2 Devour Flesh
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Quicken
2 AEtherspouts
3 Divination
3 Thoughtseize
1 Whelming Wave
Artifacts
2 Perilous Vault
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rachet Bomb
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Dispel
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Negate
2 Duress
The Board is as optimized as I can get for my meta, I dropped Font of Fortunes, because essentially it's worse than Divination, paying up front just leaves me open to not have a kill spell ready. Speaking of Divination, I'm considering running an Opportunity in place of Whelming Wave, and then swapping over to Jace's Ingenuity post rotation, because I have no real way of refilling my hand, and I've run into a couple matchups were I have been top decking while gaining board control and then lose it, and subsequently the match. It doesn't matter how much I scry if I don't get the cards in hand that I need to hold. Other than that, I'm loving Vault and Spouts, I've done Spouts turn 5, opponent is like "You only saved it for a turn" and then went to Turn 6 dropped a land, held a Dissolve, and dropped Ashiok to steal a Polukranos and win with it. Basically Spouts is exactly what I was looking for to help Ashiok beat down aggro as well as it does against Control. Hopefully there will be a decent black or blue draw spell/engine in KTK that isn't multicolor like Rev. One can only hope for a new Tamiyo with soem better draw than the last one. Again, sorry that took so long. If not, I'll try boarding Thoughtseize for matches I can use the hand destruction, and maindecking Read the Bones instead. Anyway, I'll keep updated more often.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
So I wanted to try something that was not 3 Colors, and something that could hang against the popular Rabble Red, while still putting up a very strong game VS Control.
I felt UB was a good way to go... Between playing BUG Walker Control and Grixis, I felt this was a good medium.
With that being said, here's the initial list I came up with...
I wanted so much to do a Perilous Control deck and feature Perilous Vault heavily, but it just didn't look right...
I wanted to be more Permission Based, so tapping out on Turn 4 for Perilous Vault felt off, then again I would be tapping out Turn 4 more often then not for Jace, so perhaps I tweek it a bit.
1 AEtherling
Spells: 24
3 Thoughtseize
4 AEtherspouts
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Ultimate Price
4 Dissolve
2 Syncopate
2 Dimir Charm
2 Jace's Ingenuity
Utility: 3
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Perilous Vault
1 Tyrant's Machine
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Jace, the Living Guildpact
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Lands: 26
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Dimir Charm
1 Mana Confluence
7 Swamp
7 Island
4 Drown in Sorrow
4 Nightveil Specter
2 Negate
1 Dispel
4 Lifebane Zombie
I'm not sure that I like 4 AEtherspouts, never been a fan of 4; but with a deck like this I think it works.
I really like Ashiok + fully featured AEtherspouts VS Aggro/Midrange decks. I like Ashiok VS Control as well.
Dimir Charm is something I haven't seen ran in awhile, since Rabble Red is making a big push and other fast agro decks are still doing well, Dimir Charm in those matchups is a suitable removal spell. VS other decks, it shines as it'll counter things like Thoughtseize or Sorcery Speed burn spells; or it can help to tweek our draw, or to ruin a scry that your opponent setup. Seems ok.
Tyrant's Machine is something new, I'm not sure how good it is, but I think it has some viability. Perhaps it might be better to just have a removal spell, but who knows. I would like to try it out.
Beyond that, it's pretty straight forward.
2x AEtherling
1x Prognostic Sphinx
Instant (18)
3x AEtherspouts
2x Bile Blight
1x Cyclonic Rift
2x Devour Flesh
3x Dissolve
1x Doom Blade
1x Far / Away
3x Hero's Downfall
1x Silence the Believers
1x Syncopate
Enchantment (3)
3x Underworld Connections
4x Dimir Guildgate
6x Island
2x Radiant Fountain
5x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Watery Grave
Sorcery (4)
1x Drown in Sorrow
2x Thoughtseize
1x Whelming Wave
Artifact (3)
1x Elixir of Immortality
2x Perilous Vault
Planeswalker (3)
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Liliana Vess
2x Dark Betrayal
2x Dispel
3x Duress
2x Gainsay
2x Nightveil Specter
1x Prognostic Sphinx
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Liliana Vess
WU$50 Budget UW heroicUW
Modern
WR Boros Burn RW
Commander/EDH
(WiP) RNorin the TrollR
All in all it does look pretty solid, I would just watch for too much life loss from Connections and make sure you aren't dead drawing an Aetherling too early too often. You might want to consider dropping an Aetherling for an Opportunity if your seeing him too much.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
What if I -3 Underworld Connections and +1 Read the Bones +2 Opportunity
Omen Speaker looks cool, but problem I see is freeing up 4 slots for it
WU$50 Budget UW heroicUW
Modern
WR Boros Burn RW
Commander/EDH
(WiP) RNorin the TrollR
Sorry it took me so long to get to you on this, I saw it a few days ago and I've been kind of in and out on Sally lately. Yeah UB is pretty bread and butter for control if you ask me. You've got the heart of hard removal and counterspells right there, and both colors have really solid card draw options too. For permission based Your build looks pretty good, but I just don't see any bounce spells. Peel From Reality works great with Omenspeaker to bascially double block, even ridding any tramplers, and letting you fire off another Scry 2 next turn. If you don't want to free up that many slots, [v]Void Snare[/c] may end up turning into an essential piece to deal with threats that already hit the board. I know it is a Sorcery, but only costing really makes up for the lack of speed, imo. My only serious Question is, why Jace, the Living Guildpact? I absolutely hate him. His +1 doesn't net you any cards, his Void Snare is too over costed to deal with threats more than once, and if you actually use his Ult it won't end the game like Architect does, but you've probably already got the game anyway. Ashiok's Ult will hit more often, and its strictly better without drawing you the cards. I plan on freeing up 2 slots from Architect for Ingenuity's after roll out, and my 3rd slot will go to a 3rd Ashiok. But Overall, you're shell looks really great, but if you want to run permission style, I highly suggest running some type of bounce spell. Putting Peel + Omen would be a lot hard to move around, but if I added Void Snare, I would -1 Jace, tLG, -1 Ult Price, -1 Thoughtseize, +3 Void Snare, and those choices are tough enough. I dunno, maybe not a Thoughtseize, maybe something else. Lol, yeah, thats kind of a tough call.
EDIT: I'm dumb, Keep Thoughsieze, the hand distruction is too valueable for persmission, drop an Aetherspouts, 3 should be plenty. Completely forgot you were running 4 and were thinking of dropping from 4.-1 Ult Price, -1 Jace 5.0, -1 Aetherspouts, +3 Void Snare seems like the direction I would go.
Yeah, its tough fitting 4-of on anything. 3-ofs are hard enough to include, as seen above. When I updated my build when Innistrad was rolling out, it was, as roll outs go, much easier to find slots. I kinda build the creture base around 4-of Speaker, and 2-of Aetherling(which since dropped to 1), so it may just be easier to do it then, or just consider whats rolling out. It's probably better to test out the draw engine change first anyway, it might be tougher to see how things are working if you work in 4 Omenspeaker while changing Connections out for Read the Bones and Opportunity.
I think I have an idea for how I would run a Permission based build in the current standard, I'm gonna throw it together on Trice and try out a match or two. I'll let you guys know what I think.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
I agree, it's pretty solid and I think it's even more solid because it carries a 2 Color Manabase.
I think BUG is legit too; but def comes down to if I cut the Green and only go 2, I think UB is the place to be!
Well there is Cyclonic Rift?
That's about as good as it gets for Bounce, early it bounces 1 thing while late it bounces everything.
I do see your point though, something else needs to be in here; perhaps that's why I've seen people going with a few Cyclonic Rift.
That one seems pretty good in general, sure it costs 1U early; but I thinks fine.
So perhaps I add another Rift or 2 to give me 2 or 3 total.
You know, in testing I have found Jace, Living Guildpact to be AMAZING in BUG, and even in Grixis.
However; I'm finding him pretty poor in UB.
I would almost rather it be another Rift or something if I really want the BOUNCE out of it.
In Grixis we have Rakdos's Return, you bounce something and empty their hand.
In BUG it works well too...
But in UB where we don't have much to force them to Discard what you bounce, it seems lacking.
I mean since this is a Permission based UB Control, I suppose I could Bounce something and then hold back a Counterspell.
So it could be useful, but not nearly as useful hence why I only run 1.
I'll have to consider these suggestions, you're probably right in UB it is probably better to replace it with something else.
Yea it does seem pretty solid, it's been playing well.
I didn't get to give it a TEST RUN yesterday; so my first run with it will be for FNM Friday.
But it does seem to have everything that we would need; even the sideboard as limited as it MAY look, it seems to have what we would need and it's simple.
I like simple! LOL
As far as Ashiok is concerned, I honestly want 4 I think...
It's a solid Turn 3 Drop that will generate a ton of hate right off the bat...
VS Control it disrupts.
VS Aggro it can provide us defense/threats to hold them back.
I like it no matter the matchup, sure some matchups maybe perhaps you don't need 3 or 4, you could side out 1 or 2, but all in all I like it as long as you have the support package to make it work.
I'm also a big fan of AEtherspouts + Ashiok; really puts your opponent in a BIND!
Yea I don't want to Cut Thoughtseize; I like Thoughtseize for sure with the Counter Package, to be honest I would like to find room for the 4th Mainboard.
I think with the permission package, Thoughtseize would put in some good work in any matchup including BURN.
I'll take a look at Void Snare, and some of the others you suggested and see what I like.
I appreciate the feedback!!!
So with those replies out of the way...
What did you think about Tyrant's Machine?
And yea, I could drop down to 3 AEtherspouts...
The more I think about Jace, the Living Guildpact though, I do like the 1 of; I think that's fine.
1 AEtherling
Spells: 24
4 Thoughtseize
3 AEtherspouts
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Silence the Believers
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Ultimate Price
4 Dissolve
2 Syncopate
2 Dimir Charm
2 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Perilous Vault
Walkers: 7
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Jace, the Living Guildpact
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Lands: 26
4 Watery Grave
4 Temple of Deceit
3 Dimir Charm
1 Mana Confluence
7 Swamp
7 Island
4 Drown in Sorrow
4 Nightveil Specter
2 Negate
1 Dispel
4 Lifebane Zombie
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Oh I'm not running it right now in my most current list; but I have run it before and it has come in handy.
It's not as expensive as you would think though; especially when most of our spells are 2 and 3 cost... atleast the permission based spells.
Also when 95% of the spells are Instant speed too; it fits ok.
I've tried it out a few times and wasn't disappointed by it, but I wasn't super excited about it either.
I think ultimately I would like a removal spell; but then the problem with that is when you got stuff like Blood Baron and there's a bit of a problem dealing with it with most of our spells.
Not worried about Blood Baron, it's just 1 example.
But yea, my most recent list doesn't have it.