This card might be useful for a touch of pseudo instant speed card draw:
Font of Fortunes: 1U Enchantment 1U, Sacrifice Font of Fortunes: draw two cards
I think it'll be very, very useful considering how much good countermagic and removal we have that costs 2 mana. So playing this and leaving 2 open for Nullify/Negate/Gainsay/Devour Flesh/Doom Blade/Bile Blight (you get the idea) is going to be a very good 4-mana sequence. Also, having your draw spells be able to sit on the table on a seal is good for when you're doing things like resolving Opportunities and untapping with 9 cards in hand.
In a lot of match-ups, when you're on the play, you can get away with just rolling it out onto the table on turn 2. In some match-ups, on the draw, you can probably just turn2 it anyways--like control match-ups where you aren't concerned so much with 3-drops.
@Mr_Mikey: At this point, I'd rather have Inspiration over Font of Fortunes - unless there is some motivating combo with devotion or constellation we've overlooked.
Well, for those of us playing 4 Inspiration already, this starts to look like it might be better than Divination. It's also nice to think about playing a better mana curve with less than 4 Opportunity--but not skimping on draw at the same time. And, like I said before, being able to just leave this on the table will be very relevant in match-ups like control mirrors where you sit there and hit land drops all day and hold a full grip--when you resolve a draw spell in that match-up, you have to discard EoT in many cases. This lets you play an Inspiration EoT when you have a full grip (so you can find more land) and then instead of playing a land and pitching one, you play a land and cast this. You don't probably even care if it resolves or not either, so it's a very safe play to make in your mainphase for match-ups where you don't want to tap out at all.
@Atanhe In the GR matchups and even GB matchups, I've had success running 2x Reap Intellect SB. In G2, you just want to kill mana/land dorks to slow them down and then Reap for 1-2 cards in their hand, you should be able to strip their deck of Stormbreath's and Reapers. As far as Dimir Charm is concerned, I don't like more than 2x - its a utility card and I hardly ever find myself in dire NEED of one. Against MonoB, they will win the discard war because of 4/4 duress and thoughtseize - we can't compete with that. I think it's better to side out whatever discard you have and some high cost counters and bring in more removal with Dark Betrayal / Ultimate Price.
I concur with this data on Reap Intellect; I've been testing with 1-2 of those in my 75 for the last week. It's also phenomenal with Far/Away. And it's not that hard to get to like 6 or 7 mana and just shred the important stuff from your opponent's hand. Even if it's just blank removal spells, you can still just take those out and then look through their deck and leave the rest of their blanks in there--let them have more potential blank draws. Reap is also a strong uppercut to follow an EoT Notion Thief in match-ups where you'd bring that guy in.
As far as the last 2 sentences you said here: I agree wholeheartedly to just punt the discard war to Mono Black, but you can also use a critical mass of redundant answers to help keep your hand stocked. If you get TSed 3 times and you draw 4 answers by the time they roll a threat, you still have an answer for that threat.
The trick with MBD is to top deck a bomb (like opportunity) g2 after they strip your hand, just like any other control deck (see: UWx). Sorry to leave it up to luck but that's how the 4/4 TS/Duress split works.
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Consuming Aberation is sort of like Master of Cruelties.
It's a really cool card and super functional.
However, both are glass cannons. We've got Aetherling, which, if resolved, won't die unless they've got a couple pieces of instant speed removal or you do dumb things with it (don't worry, I've done those dumb things too).
Aberation only has a place if you're playing it for FNM flavor win.
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Pretty sure we can't talk much about cards that haven't come out yet, sorry guys.
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GR monsters requires a hand with syncopate. Xenagos, PW is the most difficult PW to deal with since he's CA right out of the gate. We don't have DD to lock down the tokens and, if left unchecked, Xengaos will just kill you with 2/2s. Domri will get them cards but doesn't have to be dealt with until he's around 7 loyalty. The logic to approach a resolved Domri with is, I think: "would I kill Courser of Kruphix right now if this Domri was a Courser instead?" Both have a shot at 1 card a turn and one can attack for 2, which is negligible outside of the times when you're 10 life and lower.
It seems like the thread here is taking a step back. I'm not trying to shut down anyone's side of debates, but I'm seeing a lot of cards that a bunch of us in here already tried and ruled out. While I can advocate not running Thoughtseize, no matter how much I like it myself, why are things like Opportunity, Inspiration, and Consuming Aberration still coming up? Opportunity is not a Sphinx Rev replacement, no matter how hard we try....I have tried. Inspiration is not good enough, instant speed or not, it's tapping an extra mana source for 2 cards, therefore preventing you from dropping a land you're digging up, or casting a spell you scried, Inspiration + Dissolve = 7 mana, 3 blue. Inspiration + Bile Blight or Devour or Doom Blade or Ultimate price = 6 mana 1 blue and 1 - 2 black. It's too much mana, why are we talking about 4 drop draw spells. It's like a Think Twice that you HAVE to pay the other 2 mana for now. An Consuming Aberration, like lugger had posted, has no way to protect itself, like Aetherling does, so it just gets shot to hell.
I am in the process or running more kill spells in place of Thoughtseize, and Read the Bones in place of Divination, just to see if that extra card and push me a little farther forward.
@lugger why can't we talk about spoiled cards? it's where we are headed in T2, so we need to consider upgrades, like every other build is already doing.
@Font of Fortunes I like it, and will definitely try it out, however my only fear is that it won't get used in time. Being 2 to drop and 2 to activate is about as good as we could expect, so hopefully that works, because I'll replace Divination with Font of Fortunes if it playtests as well as Divination.
Has anyone had the luxury of playtesting my list via ckockatrice/MWS or anything? It's literally not losing, really wanted to stay true to UB, but without a boardwipe, I've settled on the W splash. If someone can, and needs strategy input, in the event that I play it some wierd way or something, I' glad to give play tips and strategy breakdowns per card. My SCG Open is only 2 days away and I don't exactly wanna hang my head in here and tell you guys I went 2 - 7 and dropped, or something stupid, lol.
GR monsters is nearly always Downfall Domri, Ult Price Courser to shut down their engine, then you 1 for 1 their creatures until they are in topdeck mode and you have a hand with 2 - 3 answers and a jace drawing you cards.
Oh, and @TOG Thank you again for the Dispel sideboard option, that card has come in handy more than anything in mo board. I searched back, and I was pretty sure it was you, but yeah I found the suggestion and I appreciated that. That and using Jace to draw more so than Ult for Aetherling has been a decent tweak in my gameplay to help get to things I need, rather than just try and lock down with -1/-0 for turn 4 - 8 to ult turn 9 while running out of answers.
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How are we going to draw cards without Opportunity? Jace will usually get you 2 cards max without protection. Divination gets you 2 and taps you out. I'm not sold on Inspiration either but Divination isn't exactly strictly better than Inspiration.
Also, returning to cards is not necessarily a bad thing. Different viewpoints bring up different ideas. Metas change. Different cards get better or worse as a format evolves and changes depending on time and geography. Returning to cards is also valuable as people bring different build strategies to the table. Inspiration might not belong in a tap-out/kill-your-stuff deck or a superfriends deck but could have a place in a counter-spell heavy deck.
Understanding that lists and ideas won't conform to yours in threads as brewery based as a semi-established control thread is what UBx threads and authors have had to deal with for months. Grasping that helps you give advice and develop your own lists. I suggest it.
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Newcomers will always bring up cards that have already have been dismissed as Johnny/Timmy cards. Giving them a response is a small sacrifice.
Holding mana open until your opponent's end step is what makes Inspiration powerful. It doesn't have to be cheaper than 4 mana to do its job because that 4 mana is free mana you would otherwise have spent on nothing. Instead, it rewards you for playing safely by holding open your counter-mana during your opponent's whole turn. And that, in turn, pressures your opponent do do something on his turn--lest you EoT produce card advantage at little to no risk to yourself.
I don't understand why Sphinx's Revelation has anything to do with Opportunity when we're not talking about a deck that has white in it. If we're talking about how easy it is to dip into white and to have enough white sources to cast Revelation, then there is a valid argument. Yes, Revelation is almost always better than Opportunity--but only if you can actually cast it. If you have little to no other reason to play white mana sources, Opportunity is better than Revelation because Opportunity actually is a spell you can cast and Revelation is not. And frankly, if you're turning 1 card into 4, isn't that already enough? Why does the card even need to do anything else? Drawing 4 cards is fine.
And no, playing 6-8 white temples/shocks is not free; it messes with your mana curve and/or life total. Sure, it's proven that you can play a three-color deck with Revelation...but does that mean it's a given? Not necessarily. If you already can save life points and tempo by having a more stable 2-color manabase with a lot of basics, you have a higher percentage of games where you get to survive a rough early game against an aggro deck on the nut draw--also a higher percentage of keepable hands in general. Stability can be a major factor in your W/L record for a long tournament, or for a long session of grinding on MTGO. After all, because stability is such a major component of games, red decks exist. They aren't really there to deal with people who have good draws where they don't stumble on mana and don't have too many taplands and find ways to interact early and often--red decks are there to punish bad draws and undertuned decks and bad pilot decisions.
How are we going to draw cards without Opportunity? Jace will usually get you 2 cards max without protection. Divination gets you 2 and taps you out. I'm not sold on Inspiration either but Divination isn't exactly strictly better than Inspiration.
I've been drawing several times with Jace, and I occasionally can -2 a jace at 2 then drop a jace, and use it again. Opportunity is not only unnecessary, its a Sphinx Rev locked at 4 without the lifegain. The X is Sphinx Rev is what makes it good. Opportunity is just clunky. And, Why in the world is Divination getting cast on turn 3 and tapping you out? 5 - 6 lands minimum so you have 2 - 3 open for a spell that you drew. This is why I cited that inspiration, even if you cast it EOT is going to be more difficult, since it still takes that extra mana, thus slowing down your turns and your casting off the draw. I'm not saying it's scrictly better, since you can EOT 4 it as opposed to during turn 5 - 6 like Divination. I'm just saying that the 1 less mana leaves more mana open late game when you should need those 2 extra cards.
Also, returning to cards is not necessarily a bad thing. Different viewpoints bring up different ideas. Metas change. Different cards get better or worse as a format evolves and changes depending on time and geography. Returning to cards is also valuable as people bring different build strategies to the table. Inspiration might not belong in a tap-out/kill-your-stuff deck or a superfriends deck but could have a place in a counter-spell heavy deck.
I'm open to rehashing cards, I just don't want us to be taking an unnecessary step back in our brainstorming.
Understanding that lists and ideas won't conform to yours in threads as brewery based as a semi-established control thread is what UBx threads and authors have had to deal with for months. Grasping that helps you give advice and develop your own lists. I suggest it.
Holding mana open until your opponent's end step is what makes Inspiration powerful. It doesn't have to be cheaper than 4 mana to do its job because that 4 mana is free mana you would otherwise have spent on nothing. Instead, it rewards you for playing safely by holding open your counter-mana during your opponent's whole turn. And that, in turn, pressures your opponent do do something on his turn--lest you EoT produce card advantage at little to no risk to yourself.
Okay, what I'm suggesting, is not don't use Inspiration, but rather, don't use it until you need to, and with more mana open, do double up on value by both digging and casting. I feel like Divination serves this purpose better, and with a possible "one spell per turn" happening, Divination on your own turn and spell on opponents turn is going to help that.
In all honesty, I think you guys are right, and the Inspiration/Divination debate should go on a bit. While I like Divination, I'm getting ready to retest Inspiration and use it differently.
I don't understand why Sphinx's Revelation has anything to do with Opportunity when we're not talking about a deck that has white in it. If we're talking about how easy it is to dip into white and to have enough white sources to cast Revelation, then there is a valid argument. Yes, Revelation is almost always better than Opportunity--but only if you can actually cast it. If you have little to no other reason to play white mana sources, Opportunity is better than Revelation because Opportunity actually is a spell you can cast and Revelation is not. And frankly, if you're turning 1 card into 4, isn't that already enough? Why does the card even need to do anything else? Drawing 4 cards is fine.
I'm bringing up Rev because it does work, and it's closest comparable card to Opportunity. The best way I can give you pros and cons in this situation is to compare a similar card. Kind of like the way we are comparing Read the Bones/Divination/Inspiration. Also, I've also officially splashed W for the sweeper, and if I add Sphinx Rev, I'm basically going to shift to Esper, and I don't wanna do that. I know we aren't using Rev, I'm just trying to come up with an example. The best thing to be done is to test it and find out, but the manditory 6 mana is going to get clunky, I'm sure of it. I really have tried, if you look at some of my earlier lists in this thread, I've tried anywhere from 1 - 3 Opportunity, and either I didn't get to it when I needed it, or I didn't get the mana in time and didn't have other spells to get there.
And no, playing 6-8 white temples/shocks is not free; it messes with your mana curve and/or life total. Sure, it's proven that you can play a three-color deck with Revelation...but does that mean it's a given? Not necessarily. If you already can save life points and tempo by having a more stable 2-color manabase with a lot of basics, you have a higher percentage of games where you get to survive a rough early game against an aggro deck on the nut draw--also a higher percentage of keepable hands in general. Stability can be a major factor in your W/L record for a long tournament, or for a long session of grinding on MTGO. After all, because stability is such a major component of games, red decks exist. They aren't really there to deal with people who have good draws where they don't stumble on mana and don't have too many taplands and find ways to interact early and often--red decks are there to punish bad draws and undertuned decks and bad pilot decisions.
Who said 6 - 8 white sources is free? When I splashed white I replaced basics, as to not screw up my U/B curve. If someone else said that, I missed it, and yeah, I agree too much white sources for a splash can mess up a lot.
Speaking of RDW, I got to play a couple this week on MWS, and I was plaesantly surprised at how well I could stave off the 1drops and hasters to keep their field clear of any threat. I'm currently testing -3 Divination +3 Read the Bones, -3 Thoughtseize, +1 Devour +1 Bile Blight +1Ult Price. While I do posit an arguement on these things, I do try what you guys are suggesting, because I don't just dismiss anyone's opinions as wrong. Ever. I basically took the 3of instead of 2of, no Thoguhtseize, and why not Read the Bones things into my build. It seemed like if I was to try Read the Bones, I needed to take out Thoughtseize, and I could then add a 3rd for each 2drop spot removal, and the only suitable replacement to place RtB was to take out Divination. I may, however, go back down to the 2ofs and put 3x Divination or even Inspiration in to try that extra draw, see how things work that way.
At the end of the day, thank you guys all for your suggestions and opinions, and whatever success I have tomorrow will be to this lively and helpful debate. an SCG Open isn't exatly an GP or Pro Tour or anything, but it's my first step into larger tournaments and I appreciate everyone here.
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I understand that the symmetrical draw seems bad, but UB seems capable of breaking it by either stopping players with counter and removal while grinding out something like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver or Notion Thief. You don't necessarily need to shut off their draw, you can shut off what they do with it which is the most common way to make these kind of cards more lop-sided. Having Flash fits into the draw go game, the card draw compounds over time, you get the first draw and can have open mana on your turn...
seems like this is where I would probably want to be with blue base control and fitting this in over something like Jace, Architect of Thought in Shouta's PT Theros list seems like a solid start.
@Kahmal and tuphdc I rrreeeeaaaaalllly wanna talk about both of those cards specifically, lugger is absolutely correct.
Rule #4 of the Standard Competitive Forum Rules -
"Discussion of spoiled cards must be confined to the Standard New Card Discussion subforum. New sets are okay to discuss in the rest of the Standard forum the moment Wizards has published the entire spoiler. Post-rotation discussion is also not permitted until the new block has been fully spoiled."
A couple weeks people, just a couple weeks. I really don't wanna see any of us get an infraction over impatience.
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@Kahmal and tuphdc I rrreeeeaaaaalllly wanna talk about both of those cards specifically, lugger is absolutely correct.
Rule #4 of the Competative Forum Rules -
"Discussion of spoiled cards must be confined to the Standard New Card Discussion subforum. New sets are okay to discuss in the rest of the Standard forum the moment Wizards has published the entire spoiler. Post-rotation discussion is also not permitted until the new block has been fully spoiled."
A couple weeks people, just a couple weeks. I really don't wanna see any of us get an infraction over impatience.
Reread it... discussion is fine. The entire set is spoiled in the GCard Image Gallery.
You can discuss as much as you want Nate. The rules only stipulated that you should stick to the SNCD sub until the ENTIRE spoiler has been spoiled.
So go wild I guess.
@Kamal
I'm not thrilled by Dictate tbh. Sure if you could break the symmetry the card seems fantastic but I personally just don't think the tools are there atm. Notion Thief is a fine creature against control since he also poses a clock, but besides Mutavault seeing cross archetype play,in any other MU Notion Thief just isn't that good of a creature to begin with. As for Ashiok...Don't get me wrong I love the card to bits but the sheer inconsistency behind it has seen many a better player than me dismiss the card's constructed playability.
@Nate: I'm not really interested in waiting to cast Divination until t5-6, if that's what you're trying to say.
Now that spoilers have made it out as of last night, Dictate of Kruphix was a card I was looking at.
However, I'd like some input on others who have been playing standard control longer than I have. Was Howling Mine/Jace Beleren feasible in control decks back in the day? Will EoT Howling Mine really make it that much better than regular Howling Mine?
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Font of Fortunes seems to be an auto include. I'm just going to assume that it's better than any of our other cheap draw spells to save time. This paired with Dictate of Kruphix would make me think that maybe we want to find some sort of U devotion kill? Master was bounced around in some UB "control" lists (read: MBD splashing U).
I was digging through old Chapin lists and saw that he was running Life's Finale at a GP. Extinguish All Hope is no Life's Finale. It's considerably worse. However, this isn't a format where people are ramping into titans, dumping 10 mana into a Kessig Wolf Run, animating Inkmoth, and lethaling you. So will it do? This will need a lot of testing, which I'll get to.
@Nate: I'm not really interested in waiting to cast Divination until t5-6, if that's what you're trying to say.
That is exactly what I'm saying. That, and there shouldn't be a reason to t3 tapout for Divination. you're leaving yourself open for way to many early threats and easy plays against you.
Now that spoilers have made it out as of last night, Dictate of Kruphix was a card I was looking at.
Are we allowed to discuss new cards now? I didn't see anything in the forum rules you mentioned stipulating "when the set is spoiled". I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to things straight.
I was digging through old Chapin lists and saw that he was running Life's Finale at a GP. Extinguish All Hope is no Life's Finale. It's considerably worse. However, this isn't a format where people are ramping into titans, dumping 10 mana into a Kessig Wolf Run, animating Inkmoth, and lethaling you. So will it do? This will need a lot of testing, which I'll get to.
I'm not sold on Extinguish All Hope as of yet, but It's in the back of my mind when the block is completely in standard. Judging by all the enchantment creatures abound and a black 2 drop killing enchantment creatures, and all the constellation mechanics, I'm on the fence.
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New sets are okay to discuss in the rest of the Standard forum the moment Wizards has published the entire spoiler
Pretty clear cut imo
Personally I'm inclined to think that the enchantment clause kills Extinguish All Hope or at least really hurts the viability of the card, especially in a set where creatures have been tacked on with a enchantment supertype as an afterthought.
As for Dictate...I'm still not seeing it, the closest list I can even imagine is Shouta's from the PT and later his GP finish. You'd essentially be trading Dictate for Jace and fiddling with counter/removal slots and neither Jace nor Ashiok seem particularly good right now and in the Weaver's case maybe not even good at all. We simply don't have a Dreamborn Muse effect to abuse and the best I can think of is a Dictate/Notion Thief softlock and I cannot imagine actually wanting Thief in other than a handful of MU's.
I don't think you need a Dreamborn Muse to abuse and I don't think that straight up just trying to mill them off their extra draws is how you want to go about winning.
This is why I like something like Shouta's list which featured creatures in the MB. Packing nothing but draw go tools and some cheap beaters like Master of Waves let's you continue your game plan of grinding them down, without having to worry about the clock AS much as if you were just wanting to mill them out of the game.
If draw-go is where you want to be, I really think Dictate of Kruphix is what let's you play your strategy more seamlessly than having to tap out and you are able to get your card selection up faster than big draw spells.
Cards like Dictate are good when you are able to either shut off one end of the draw, or bottle neck them on what they can actually DO with those cards they are drawing. This format is riddled with cards that are big and expensive and generally only amount to one or two card plays in the early and mid game and if you target their mana by using getting a draw engine online as early as possible, you are able to match the economic symmetry of Dictate with a small upside of having a deck that is aimed at answering either what they already played or what they are going to play - through counter magic and removal.
This issue that arises from something like this is having a soft spot to decks that are capable of spamming their early turns with multiple plays and you have Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight for that.
New sets are okay to discuss in the rest of the Standard forum the moment Wizards has published the entire spoiler
Pretty clear cut imo
Thank you, I didn't see that. Probably because I have a bad habit of skimming until I find what I'm looking for, then ignoring the rest.
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Mini FNM update - weird but I had 2x Ties and 2x Losses. I lost to Esper because I couldn't get Elixir off the Table both games, I would have decked him otherwise. I lost to GW because he sideboarded well and had protection spells to cover his Mistcutter Hydras and Loxodon Smiters.
The two games I won were against Azorius Control and I would let them Sphinx for huge, then play Ashiok and protect her. Game over. Also, in the first game, the guy wanted to Pithing Needle my Encroaching Wastes....I countered and proceeded to bury his mutavaults.
So, due to conflicting time schedules with my grandfathers funeral, I was not able to attend my SCG Open... Sorry guys.
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Hi all, I'm new to the thread, read through it all, and have a few ideas that I was hoping for feedback on:
First, Disciple of Deceit - this seems like a great card if you can get the mechanic to work. Options include Phenax, God of Deception and Spring-Leaf Drum. This will turn any of your gas into tutors - if you run drum, you can tutor for an Elixir of Immortality. Far can turn into a 2 or 3 CMC tutor for removal or counter magic. The card looks like, think it has a place in the deck?
Disciple of Deceit could work as a 2x all by herself - I've actually had success running 2x Scroll Theif in UB control. Spring Leaf Drum is bad in UB control because the creature count is far too low.
I've been testing this deck for a while after the full set has been spoiled.
It's a very fun deck to play, has the Notion Thief lock mainboard. Dictate pushes card advantage by allowing you to 1:1 better with cards. Elixir prevents decking yourself. Classic control wincon(s), etc. I feel like I can cut Quicken in the deck to move 2 of the Thoughtseize to the mainboard, it'll help get information from my opponent and plan my draws (via temple scry effects) and plays accordingly. It liberates two slots in the sideboard that can be used for Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, and other staple sideboard cards in UBx Control.
I gotta give credit to Nate on the sweeper package, it's proven very useful.
@Outcry Welcome to the thread! I have to agree with tuph on DoD. She's better on her own. you can easily swing in for early damagewhile the Drum is basically taking a land or kill spell slot, which neither sounds go to me.. I think jace is way too useful to replace with any of the other current options at 4cmc, but that could depend on quite a few things. And especially since I'm reading talk of a UB Inspired and/or Heroic Deck possible.
@Doominus Thank you, I was rather proud of that find. I like the idea of Dictate of Krufix + Notion Thief. Great way to refill, wonderful draw engine there. I'm going to try that.
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It's almost tuned enough to +EV grind on MTGO (where I have it built), but I'm basically engrossed in Dark Souls 2...so I've kinda decided to just plan ahead for what I'm going to do come JIN's release on MTGO. (Right now, I'm contemplating Blue Fonts and BG Temples.) Regardless, for the sake of discussion, I've put my list up, and I have a few thoughts:
-Mutavault runs this format. You have to have built-in answers to that card. I know some of you just run your own 'Vaults, but I don't really think that's sound in practice because they often eat a removal spell...so I tested heavily with Encroaching Wastes for a considerable amount of games, but that turned out to be as slow as it looks on paper. This left me looking for something else that promotes my own game while deterring a 2/2 on the ground, and eventually that led me to Sylvan Caryatid. And the more I play with that card, the more it impresses me. Instead of 1-for-1ing with a spell, you're shutting down a threat while putting a mana on the table. It's not perfect, but it's a relatively safe play that's very strong against aggro. That's what I've been looking for.
-Golgari Charm is maindeck material on MTGO. Every deck plays enchantments and/or 1-toughness guys. Even against UWx decks, you can use it with a Downfall to clean up an Elspeth, or you can blow up a DSphere on something (if you have permanents), or you can regenerate walls through a Verdict. Against midrange, it'll kill a Connections or a Courser. Sure, you can play Shrivel in UB, but it won't blow up those enchantments. I think that's worth considering a dip into green, at least on the MTGO metagame.
-Generally speaking, I'd always prefer more than 4 Temples in a control deck if I can get away with it, even in a 2-color deck. So most of the dangers of going into a third color are damage due to shocks. If you have solutions for hyper-aggressive decks, shocks aren't going to hurt. Because it's very safe to do this, I've moved onto BUG permanently.
Anyways, I won't put more tricolor decks into this thread, but I figured I would show what I've been playing on MTGO. It's not finalized, but maybe it can give someone else some ideas.
Have you considered having a couple of putrefy in case you need a couple of extra unconditional creature kill spells? And I also imagine having access to Abrupt Decay in the sideboard to use against aggro decks as well as having a catch all for cheap but annoying permanents would be rather useful.
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Found myself agreeing with most of this post about Cavern of souls and countermagic.
I think it'll be very, very useful considering how much good countermagic and removal we have that costs 2 mana. So playing this and leaving 2 open for Nullify/Negate/Gainsay/Devour Flesh/Doom Blade/Bile Blight (you get the idea) is going to be a very good 4-mana sequence. Also, having your draw spells be able to sit on the table on a seal is good for when you're doing things like resolving Opportunities and untapping with 9 cards in hand.
In a lot of match-ups, when you're on the play, you can get away with just rolling it out onto the table on turn 2. In some match-ups, on the draw, you can probably just turn2 it anyways--like control match-ups where you aren't concerned so much with 3-drops.
Well, for those of us playing 4 Inspiration already, this starts to look like it might be better than Divination. It's also nice to think about playing a better mana curve with less than 4 Opportunity--but not skimping on draw at the same time. And, like I said before, being able to just leave this on the table will be very relevant in match-ups like control mirrors where you sit there and hit land drops all day and hold a full grip--when you resolve a draw spell in that match-up, you have to discard EoT in many cases. This lets you play an Inspiration EoT when you have a full grip (so you can find more land) and then instead of playing a land and pitching one, you play a land and cast this. You don't probably even care if it resolves or not either, so it's a very safe play to make in your mainphase for match-ups where you don't want to tap out at all.
I concur with this data on Reap Intellect; I've been testing with 1-2 of those in my 75 for the last week. It's also phenomenal with Far/Away. And it's not that hard to get to like 6 or 7 mana and just shred the important stuff from your opponent's hand. Even if it's just blank removal spells, you can still just take those out and then look through their deck and leave the rest of their blanks in there--let them have more potential blank draws. Reap is also a strong uppercut to follow an EoT Notion Thief in match-ups where you'd bring that guy in.
As far as the last 2 sentences you said here: I agree wholeheartedly to just punt the discard war to Mono Black, but you can also use a critical mass of redundant answers to help keep your hand stocked. If you get TSed 3 times and you draw 4 answers by the time they roll a threat, you still have an answer for that threat.
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Consuming Aberation is sort of like Master of Cruelties.
It's a really cool card and super functional.
However, both are glass cannons. We've got Aetherling, which, if resolved, won't die unless they've got a couple pieces of instant speed removal or you do dumb things with it (don't worry, I've done those dumb things too).
Aberation only has a place if you're playing it for FNM flavor win.
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Pretty sure we can't talk much about cards that haven't come out yet, sorry guys.
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GR monsters requires a hand with syncopate. Xenagos, PW is the most difficult PW to deal with since he's CA right out of the gate. We don't have DD to lock down the tokens and, if left unchecked, Xengaos will just kill you with 2/2s. Domri will get them cards but doesn't have to be dealt with until he's around 7 loyalty. The logic to approach a resolved Domri with is, I think: "would I kill Courser of Kruphix right now if this Domri was a Courser instead?" Both have a shot at 1 card a turn and one can attack for 2, which is negligible outside of the times when you're 10 life and lower.
I am in the process or running more kill spells in place of Thoughtseize, and Read the Bones in place of Divination, just to see if that extra card and push me a little farther forward.
@lugger why can't we talk about spoiled cards? it's where we are headed in T2, so we need to consider upgrades, like every other build is already doing.
@Font of Fortunes I like it, and will definitely try it out, however my only fear is that it won't get used in time. Being 2 to drop and 2 to activate is about as good as we could expect, so hopefully that works, because I'll replace Divination with Font of Fortunes if it playtests as well as Divination.
Has anyone had the luxury of playtesting my list via ckockatrice/MWS or anything? It's literally not losing, really wanted to stay true to UB, but without a boardwipe, I've settled on the W splash. If someone can, and needs strategy input, in the event that I play it some wierd way or something, I' glad to give play tips and strategy breakdowns per card. My SCG Open is only 2 days away and I don't exactly wanna hang my head in here and tell you guys I went 2 - 7 and dropped, or something stupid, lol.
GR monsters is nearly always Downfall Domri, Ult Price Courser to shut down their engine, then you 1 for 1 their creatures until they are in topdeck mode and you have a hand with 2 - 3 answers and a jace drawing you cards.
Oh, and @TOG Thank you again for the Dispel sideboard option, that card has come in handy more than anything in mo board. I searched back, and I was pretty sure it was you, but yeah I found the suggestion and I appreciated that. That and using Jace to draw more so than Ult for Aetherling has been a decent tweak in my gameplay to help get to things I need, rather than just try and lock down with -1/-0 for turn 4 - 8 to ult turn 9 while running out of answers.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
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How are we going to draw cards without Opportunity? Jace will usually get you 2 cards max without protection. Divination gets you 2 and taps you out. I'm not sold on Inspiration either but Divination isn't exactly strictly better than Inspiration.
Also, returning to cards is not necessarily a bad thing. Different viewpoints bring up different ideas. Metas change. Different cards get better or worse as a format evolves and changes depending on time and geography. Returning to cards is also valuable as people bring different build strategies to the table. Inspiration might not belong in a tap-out/kill-your-stuff deck or a superfriends deck but could have a place in a counter-spell heavy deck.
Understanding that lists and ideas won't conform to yours in threads as brewery based as a semi-established control thread is what UBx threads and authors have had to deal with for months. Grasping that helps you give advice and develop your own lists. I suggest it.
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Newcomers will always bring up cards that have already have been dismissed as Johnny/Timmy cards. Giving them a response is a small sacrifice.
I don't understand why Sphinx's Revelation has anything to do with Opportunity when we're not talking about a deck that has white in it. If we're talking about how easy it is to dip into white and to have enough white sources to cast Revelation, then there is a valid argument. Yes, Revelation is almost always better than Opportunity--but only if you can actually cast it. If you have little to no other reason to play white mana sources, Opportunity is better than Revelation because Opportunity actually is a spell you can cast and Revelation is not. And frankly, if you're turning 1 card into 4, isn't that already enough? Why does the card even need to do anything else? Drawing 4 cards is fine.
And no, playing 6-8 white temples/shocks is not free; it messes with your mana curve and/or life total. Sure, it's proven that you can play a three-color deck with Revelation...but does that mean it's a given? Not necessarily. If you already can save life points and tempo by having a more stable 2-color manabase with a lot of basics, you have a higher percentage of games where you get to survive a rough early game against an aggro deck on the nut draw--also a higher percentage of keepable hands in general. Stability can be a major factor in your W/L record for a long tournament, or for a long session of grinding on MTGO. After all, because stability is such a major component of games, red decks exist. They aren't really there to deal with people who have good draws where they don't stumble on mana and don't have too many taplands and find ways to interact early and often--red decks are there to punish bad draws and undertuned decks and bad pilot decisions.
Oh, I thought when everything was spoiled it was fair game. I'll wait til prerelease, thanks.
I've been drawing several times with Jace, and I occasionally can -2 a jace at 2 then drop a jace, and use it again. Opportunity is not only unnecessary, its a Sphinx Rev locked at 4 without the lifegain. The X is Sphinx Rev is what makes it good. Opportunity is just clunky. And, Why in the world is Divination getting cast on turn 3 and tapping you out? 5 - 6 lands minimum so you have 2 - 3 open for a spell that you drew. This is why I cited that inspiration, even if you cast it EOT is going to be more difficult, since it still takes that extra mana, thus slowing down your turns and your casting off the draw. I'm not saying it's scrictly better, since you can EOT 4 it as opposed to during turn 5 - 6 like Divination. I'm just saying that the 1 less mana leaves more mana open late game when you should need those 2 extra cards.
I'm open to rehashing cards, I just don't want us to be taking an unnecessary step back in our brainstorming.
What is that supposed to mean?
Okay, what I'm suggesting, is not don't use Inspiration, but rather, don't use it until you need to, and with more mana open, do double up on value by both digging and casting. I feel like Divination serves this purpose better, and with a possible "one spell per turn" happening, Divination on your own turn and spell on opponents turn is going to help that.
In all honesty, I think you guys are right, and the Inspiration/Divination debate should go on a bit. While I like Divination, I'm getting ready to retest Inspiration and use it differently.
I'm bringing up Rev because it does work, and it's closest comparable card to Opportunity. The best way I can give you pros and cons in this situation is to compare a similar card. Kind of like the way we are comparing Read the Bones/Divination/Inspiration. Also, I've also officially splashed W for the sweeper, and if I add Sphinx Rev, I'm basically going to shift to Esper, and I don't wanna do that. I know we aren't using Rev, I'm just trying to come up with an example. The best thing to be done is to test it and find out, but the manditory 6 mana is going to get clunky, I'm sure of it. I really have tried, if you look at some of my earlier lists in this thread, I've tried anywhere from 1 - 3 Opportunity, and either I didn't get to it when I needed it, or I didn't get the mana in time and didn't have other spells to get there.
Who said 6 - 8 white sources is free? When I splashed white I replaced basics, as to not screw up my U/B curve. If someone else said that, I missed it, and yeah, I agree too much white sources for a splash can mess up a lot.
Speaking of RDW, I got to play a couple this week on MWS, and I was plaesantly surprised at how well I could stave off the 1drops and hasters to keep their field clear of any threat. I'm currently testing -3 Divination +3 Read the Bones, -3 Thoughtseize, +1 Devour +1 Bile Blight +1Ult Price. While I do posit an arguement on these things, I do try what you guys are suggesting, because I don't just dismiss anyone's opinions as wrong. Ever. I basically took the 3of instead of 2of, no Thoguhtseize, and why not Read the Bones things into my build. It seemed like if I was to try Read the Bones, I needed to take out Thoughtseize, and I could then add a 3rd for each 2drop spot removal, and the only suitable replacement to place RtB was to take out Divination. I may, however, go back down to the 2ofs and put 3x Divination or even Inspiration in to try that extra draw, see how things work that way.
At the end of the day, thank you guys all for your suggestions and opinions, and whatever success I have tomorrow will be to this lively and helpful debate. an SCG Open isn't exatly an GP or Pro Tour or anything, but it's my first step into larger tournaments and I appreciate everyone here.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
I understand that the symmetrical draw seems bad, but UB seems capable of breaking it by either stopping players with counter and removal while grinding out something like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver or Notion Thief. You don't necessarily need to shut off their draw, you can shut off what they do with it which is the most common way to make these kind of cards more lop-sided. Having Flash fits into the draw go game, the card draw compounds over time, you get the first draw and can have open mana on your turn...
seems like this is where I would probably want to be with blue base control and fitting this in over something like Jace, Architect of Thought in Shouta's PT Theros list seems like a solid start.
Rule #4 of the Standard Competitive Forum Rules -
"Discussion of spoiled cards must be confined to the Standard New Card Discussion subforum. New sets are okay to discuss in the rest of the Standard forum the moment Wizards has published the entire spoiler. Post-rotation discussion is also not permitted until the new block has been fully spoiled."
A couple weeks people, just a couple weeks. I really don't wanna see any of us get an infraction over impatience.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Reread it... discussion is fine. The entire set is spoiled in the
GCard Image Gallery.So go wild I guess.
@Kamal
I'm not thrilled by Dictate tbh. Sure if you could break the symmetry the card seems fantastic but I personally just don't think the tools are there atm. Notion Thief is a fine creature against control since he also poses a clock, but besides Mutavault seeing cross archetype play,in any other MU Notion Thief just isn't that good of a creature to begin with. As for Ashiok...Don't get me wrong I love the card to bits but the sheer inconsistency behind it has seen many a better player than me dismiss the card's constructed playability.
Now that spoilers have made it out as of last night, Dictate of Kruphix was a card I was looking at.
However, I'd like some input on others who have been playing standard control longer than I have. Was Howling Mine/Jace Beleren feasible in control decks back in the day? Will EoT Howling Mine really make it that much better than regular Howling Mine?
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Font of Fortunes seems to be an auto include. I'm just going to assume that it's better than any of our other cheap draw spells to save time. This paired with Dictate of Kruphix would make me think that maybe we want to find some sort of U devotion kill? Master was bounced around in some UB "control" lists (read: MBD splashing U).
I was digging through old Chapin lists and saw that he was running Life's Finale at a GP. Extinguish All Hope is no Life's Finale. It's considerably worse. However, this isn't a format where people are ramping into titans, dumping 10 mana into a Kessig Wolf Run, animating Inkmoth, and lethaling you. So will it do? This will need a lot of testing, which I'll get to.
That is exactly what I'm saying. That, and there shouldn't be a reason to t3 tapout for Divination. you're leaving yourself open for way to many early threats and easy plays against you.
Are we allowed to discuss new cards now? I didn't see anything in the forum rules you mentioned stipulating "when the set is spoiled". I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to things straight.
I'm not sold on Extinguish All Hope as of yet, but It's in the back of my mind when the block is completely in standard. Judging by all the enchantment creatures abound and a black 2 drop killing enchantment creatures, and all the constellation mechanics, I'm on the fence.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Pretty clear cut imo
Personally I'm inclined to think that the enchantment clause kills Extinguish All Hope or at least really hurts the viability of the card, especially in a set where creatures have been tacked on with a enchantment supertype as an afterthought.
As for Dictate...I'm still not seeing it, the closest list I can even imagine is Shouta's from the PT and later his GP finish. You'd essentially be trading Dictate for Jace and fiddling with counter/removal slots and neither Jace nor Ashiok seem particularly good right now and in the Weaver's case maybe not even good at all. We simply don't have a Dreamborn Muse effect to abuse and the best I can think of is a Dictate/Notion Thief softlock and I cannot imagine actually wanting Thief in other than a handful of MU's.
This is why I like something like Shouta's list which featured creatures in the MB. Packing nothing but draw go tools and some cheap beaters like Master of Waves let's you continue your game plan of grinding them down, without having to worry about the clock AS much as if you were just wanting to mill them out of the game.
If draw-go is where you want to be, I really think Dictate of Kruphix is what let's you play your strategy more seamlessly than having to tap out and you are able to get your card selection up faster than big draw spells.
Cards like Dictate are good when you are able to either shut off one end of the draw, or bottle neck them on what they can actually DO with those cards they are drawing. This format is riddled with cards that are big and expensive and generally only amount to one or two card plays in the early and mid game and if you target their mana by using getting a draw engine online as early as possible, you are able to match the economic symmetry of Dictate with a small upside of having a deck that is aimed at answering either what they already played or what they are going to play - through counter magic and removal.
This issue that arises from something like this is having a soft spot to decks that are capable of spamming their early turns with multiple plays and you have Drown in Sorrow and Bile Blight for that.
Thank you, I didn't see that. Probably because I have a bad habit of skimming until I find what I'm looking for, then ignoring the rest.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
The two games I won were against Azorius Control and I would let them Sphinx for huge, then play Ashiok and protect her. Game over. Also, in the first game, the guy wanted to Pithing Needle my Encroaching Wastes....I countered and proceeded to bury his mutavaults.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
First, Disciple of Deceit - this seems like a great card if you can get the mechanic to work. Options include Phenax, God of Deception and Spring-Leaf Drum. This will turn any of your gas into tutors - if you run drum, you can tutor for an Elixir of Immortality. Far can turn into a 2 or 3 CMC tutor for removal or counter magic. The card looks like, think it has a place in the deck?
Second, if you like the idea of Spring-Leaf Drum, is King Macar, the Gold-Cursed worth trying out too? It would compete with Jace, Architect of Thought at the 4CMC spot, and it's not wonderful to tap out t4 for this guy. Thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebears4 Hero's Downfall
4 Dissolve
2 Whelming Wave
2 Merciless Eviction
3 Nullify
3 Devour Flesh
2 Syncopate
2 Quicken
2 Deicide
Enchantments [4] //
4 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Notion Thief
1 AEtherling
Artifacts [1] //
1 Elixir of Immortality
Planeswalker [2] //
2 Jace, Memory Adept
Lands [26] //
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
7 Island
6 Swamp
4 Thoughtseize
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Last Breath
2 Negate
2 Gainsay
2 Ultimate Price
1 Far // Away
I've been testing this deck for a while after the full set has been spoiled.
It's a very fun deck to play, has the Notion Thief lock mainboard. Dictate pushes card advantage by allowing you to 1:1 better with cards. Elixir prevents decking yourself. Classic control wincon(s), etc. I feel like I can cut Quicken in the deck to move 2 of the Thoughtseize to the mainboard, it'll help get information from my opponent and plan my draws (via temple scry effects) and plays accordingly. It liberates two slots in the sideboard that can be used for Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, and other staple sideboard cards in UBx Control.
I gotta give credit to Nate on the sweeper package, it's proven very useful.
@Doominus Thank you, I was rather proud of that find. I like the idea of Dictate of Krufix + Notion Thief. Great way to refill, wonderful draw engine there. I'm going to try that.
Avatar by DarkNightCavalier
You will not remember my face, your name, or your journey, but in the end...
You will accede my every command.
Also quicken seems wasteful with only 4 sorceries in the 75.
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
4 Breeding Pool
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Golgari Charm
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Nullify
1 Negate
4 Dissolve
1 Cancel
4 Inspiration
4 Opportunity
1 Aetherling
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Golgari Charm
4 Drown in Sorrow
3 Bile Blight
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Gainsay
2 Reap Intellect
It's almost tuned enough to +EV grind on MTGO (where I have it built), but I'm basically engrossed in Dark Souls 2...so I've kinda decided to just plan ahead for what I'm going to do come JIN's release on MTGO. (Right now, I'm contemplating Blue Fonts and BG Temples.) Regardless, for the sake of discussion, I've put my list up, and I have a few thoughts:
-Mutavault runs this format. You have to have built-in answers to that card. I know some of you just run your own 'Vaults, but I don't really think that's sound in practice because they often eat a removal spell...so I tested heavily with Encroaching Wastes for a considerable amount of games, but that turned out to be as slow as it looks on paper. This left me looking for something else that promotes my own game while deterring a 2/2 on the ground, and eventually that led me to Sylvan Caryatid. And the more I play with that card, the more it impresses me. Instead of 1-for-1ing with a spell, you're shutting down a threat while putting a mana on the table. It's not perfect, but it's a relatively safe play that's very strong against aggro. That's what I've been looking for.
-Golgari Charm is maindeck material on MTGO. Every deck plays enchantments and/or 1-toughness guys. Even against UWx decks, you can use it with a Downfall to clean up an Elspeth, or you can blow up a DSphere on something (if you have permanents), or you can regenerate walls through a Verdict. Against midrange, it'll kill a Connections or a Courser. Sure, you can play Shrivel in UB, but it won't blow up those enchantments. I think that's worth considering a dip into green, at least on the MTGO metagame.
-Generally speaking, I'd always prefer more than 4 Temples in a control deck if I can get away with it, even in a 2-color deck. So most of the dangers of going into a third color are damage due to shocks. If you have solutions for hyper-aggressive decks, shocks aren't going to hurt. Because it's very safe to do this, I've moved onto BUG permanently.
Anyways, I won't put more tricolor decks into this thread, but I figured I would show what I've been playing on MTGO. It's not finalized, but maybe it can give someone else some ideas.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10332184&postcount=124