So for anyone who did not watch this week's SCG coverage, you should be pretty alarmed (well, even if you did). All of us who watched, saw Ivan Jen pilot his Jeskai Heroic Combo deck to an insane x-0 finish. It didn't matter whether he drew the combo or not, as his deck presented a very impressive showing of aggro beatings. The deck combo'd off/won by turn 4-5 most games. While most SCG events don't seem to garner much attention/merit, anyone who saw this deck in action would tell you that it was head and shoulders above the format, and the real deal. We've all seen that the 4 color ramp build is a real deck, and also that it is awkward. This deck had the same explosive potential and 4x as much consistency and utility.
The sticker: Not 1 deck he played seemed well equipped to beat him. The fact was that all the g/x midrange as well as jeskai tempo decks were simply a) way too slow b) couldn't meaningfully interact with the combo. That means that this deck beats essentially every deck in the format. On top of that, it is impressively cheap to build, with the exception of its landbase, making the deck highly accessible. Your format is now totally going to be warped to beat this deck.
This post may seem a little alarmist, but again, all you need do is check the SCG video archives to see this deck combo out from an empty board with just a few cards. So, Fire up your idea threads, modify your primers. This deck is here to stay, unless, of course, ascendancy is banned.
A) it wont be banned in standard and B)People just need to run enchantment removal. Goodness knows that with dispersion field, banishing ligh, Jeskai ascendancy, Various enchantment creatures, whip of erebos, the Gods, and anything else I missed that there's plenty of reason to run them.
A) it wont be banned in standard and B)People just need to run enchantment removal. Goodness knows that with dispersion field, banishing ligh, Jeskai ascendancy, Various enchantment creatures, whip of erebos, the Gods, and anything else I missed that there's plenty of reason to run them.
sigh
to save my fingers a ton of work, I'm just going to quote a post from a different thread
Quote from mysterons1 » »
"Last time I checked the following decks do not have access to erase:
U/B control
G/R monsters
B/G constellation
U/G devotion
MG devotion
boss sligh/RDW
Temur aggro
There's also the challenge of constantly holding up erase/naturalize mana (yes, even just 1w) while taking aggro beats from seeker, hoplite, crusader and company. Midrange already has some speed issues, and that's why these sligh/hyperaggro decks have gained so much traction in the meta. Further holding back on the curve to kill a threat which doesn't necessarily stop the Heroic deck from winning the game, isnt going to be a good deal. Also, if they have >3 mana up, they can simply respond to the erase, since the ascendancy has already resolved. Last time I checked, a spell that has 3cmc and says "all you creatures get +1/+1 and untap them, then loot" was still pretty powerful.
I'm not even touching on the fact that you couldn't justify maining 3-4 mainboard copies of enchantment removal for cards like gods, or suspension field that are barely played, if at all.
This deck . . . is this formats version of MBD. I've heard it compared to playing a modern deck in standard (not sure its at the power level of legacy, but it might be).
Here's the deal, this deck uses its combo to remove the major drawbacks of a aggro archetype. You handle aggro by blunting the early creature rush, stabilizing, and letting them run out of gas. If an aggro deck does not win by turn X, it probably isn't going to. This deck gets around it by incorporating a win condition that gives absolute victory and is normally available around turn Y. This means that an opposing deck has to execute its plan and win between turn x-when the aggro package runs out of gas and turn Y-when the combo kicks in. Unfortunately, it looks like X is about turn 3 and Y is turn 4.
There are a couple of problems in packing hate for enchantments. First, it's a (mostly) dead card against the decks aggro package. Further, it requires you to hold up mana. This is an aggro deck where the opponent needs to have a dead card in hand and hold two mana simply to not lose, which is basically giving the aggro decks creatures free reign for the win. This thing is probably 80-90% to win on the play.
Control simply is not a workable strategy against heroic combo. Control in Khans is so slow that heroic aggro can slide in under it.
I suspect this will take over the format very quickly.
Wizards should (at least) ban Helix ASAP. Khans was to be a midrange creature feature block. The sales on it have been just out of sight. Aggro-combo obsoletes midrange. Let me rephrase that: this combo obsoletes almost everything in the planned three block set, and most of the last set. This is why Combo has been R&D's big red "don't press this unless you want to die" button. They pressed it, now the only question is how bad things are going to get. Until something shows me that this is beatable, I really have no desire for Khans packs, or for fate reforged. Game balance might not require a banning, but I suspect business reasons-the need to sell product-means that something will be done quickly. If a Wall Street analyst has to know what a combo deck is to figure out Hasbro's earnings, people at WotC R&D are going to find themselves out of a job fast.
It's as if folks have never played in a standard format with combo before. What is frustrating about the deck is that you can devote resources to keeping Ascendancy off of the board, but you then just lose to Seeker or vice versa. I think the Abzan deck in the finals should have been able to handle the deck, but some awkward draws, bad plays, and luck on Jen's side locked the match up for him. If anything, the deck is too complicated for the average player to take up and so it won't warp the format. Some good players will end up playing it, and they'll have to have luck as Jen often top decked in a way that just seemed out of this world. He would play to his outs and then draw them. The man didn't conceal his surprise on camera either, which made it even better. I'm just tired of hearing about banning a month into a format that has been as diverse as Standard, Modern, and Legacy have been for the last few weeks. Call for bannings when things spiral into the abyss, but not till then.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
I find it amazing how the deck looks like absolute garbage on paper compared to how well it performs.
The problem with the deck is the combination of an explosive start with late-game inevitability. Most Aggro decks start strong, but the longer the game progresses the less likely they are to pull out a win with their lower impact spells - that's just the nature of running a deck with low cc spells - when you're top decking one-drops on turns 8+, you're probably not doing so hot. Because of Ascendancy, though, the deck actually has more inevitability than current Midrange decks, so not only is its early game superior, but it has a better late game too.
I'm not sure what the solution is. Normally you want to beat a deck by either:
1. Getting lethal damage in before the other deck can stabilize, or
2. Grinding the game out by gaining incremental advantages until you win.
But this deck defends against both of those strategies really really well.
Perhaps the answer is a pure Control deck? Assuming a pure Control deck in this Standard has the tools to reliably stop/slow the initial Aggro rush, of course.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
How does the deck stack up against true aggro strategies though? I mean, the deck runs a fair amount of CIPT/pain lands and it's aggro plan is likely going to be inferior to something like mono red. In contrast to the current field, it's aggro plan is fast. In contrast to aggro, it's slow. The deck is going to be a player moving forward, no doubt, but I think the meta can easily adapt.
How does the deck stack up against true aggro strategies though? I mean, the deck runs a fair amount of CIPT/pain lands and it's aggro plan is likely going to be inferior to something like mono red. In contrast to the current field, it's aggro plan is fast. In contrast to aggro, it's slow. The deck is going to be a player moving forward, no doubt, but I think the meta can easily adapt.
boss sligh is a tough matchup for the deck and it will probably have to adapt to that. Cards like Triton Tactics and Magma Spray will have to start being SB'd I assume.
Is it possible that part of it's success was due to it being a rogue deck that no one was prepared to face? The deck can combo out with Ascendancy, but also aggro you out. But I feel like if the deck becomes more popular, people will figure out how to beat it. This deck reminds me a lot of what the original Aristocrats deck was that won the pro-tour.
Finally landed an actual tier 1 deck (in my opinion) in the finals and the dude gets severe mana screw in game 1, lost game 2. So it pretty much only needed to win 1 real game of magic and it got a lucky Negate to stop an all in End Hostilities.
Technically, Ivan played:
R1 - Jund Monsters
R2 - R/G Monsters
R3 - U/W Control (was actually a draw but opponent conceded)
R4 - Temur Monsters (Qtr Finalist)
R5 - Abzan Control
R6 - Jeskai Aggro (Vidi Wijaya)
R7 - U/W Heroic
R8 - G/B Constellations
R9 - Abzan (Semi-Finalist)
R10 - ID
Ivan was probably lucky to be holding the Negate. However, the Ajani's Presence on Akroan Crusader would likely have been a blowout anyway since it would chain the next turn into Dragon Mantle, God's Willing and Retraction Helix, which we know he drew, never mind the replacement card for Negate or whatever he would draw off Dragon Mantle.
Since this weekend, i've run into this deck twice online and beat it both times with Jeskai Aggro, people need to relax, it is still very fragile. It needs two creatures to combo, helix, drum, and Ascendancy. Jeskai can slow it down pretty easily by 1) killing creatures with its plethora of burn, 2) Anger in the sideboard for killing more creatures 3)Add an extra banishing light, some counter magic, and an erase or two in the side. Thats it.
It goes off sometimes, sure, but it never looked unstoppable to me. There is no draw in that deck, they are lucky to even get an Ascendancy, let alone the other pieces. Ivan was incredibly lucky in a lot of those games and his 18 land mana base is a joke. He had a great run, it happens. If you watched, he top decked like a beast.
This deck and whip decks will get demolished when people realize they need enchantment hate. The next set will probably add some efficient ones, too. This was bound to happen, people are all out ignoring enchantments right now, but that wont last.
I've heard it compared to playing a modern deck in standard (not sure its at the power level of legacy, but it might be).
This is not the first time i've seen this deck compared to legacy combo decks...
Do the people who make these claims not watch any legacy. Almost all legacy combo decks have the ability to win on turn one or turn two comparing this deck to legacy is absurd.
So for anyone who did not watch this week's SCG coverage, you should be pretty alarmed (well, even if you did). All of us who watched, saw Ivan Jen pilot his Jeskai Heroic Combo deck to an insane x-0 finish.
Except for the fact that he piloted the deck to a X-1-1 record not an X-0 record
Is it possible that part of it's success was due to it being a rogue deck that no one was prepared to face? The deck can combo out with Ascendancy, but also aggro you out. But I feel like if the deck becomes more popular, people will figure out how to beat it. This deck reminds me a lot of what the original Aristocrats deck was that won the pro-tour.
People are not playing Anger of the Gods because of Abazan Midrange. Since Abazan (courser/caryatid) decks are the majority of the field anger is terrible against them. That left a hole for this deck. Surprisingly Abzan has a great match up against this deck.
I think we found the 3rd pillar of standard since control is gone. Abazan, Jeskai combo, and everything else.
I'm surprised that I still see 0 back to nature in people's sideboards. It is live vs every deck is 2 mana and instant.
I've been piloting it against a mono-red aggro deck, found it was around a 50-50 matchup, then changed my mana base to R splash green for destructive revelry (to hate on the artifacts/enchantments which enable this), access to Xenagos, the Reveler, hooting mandrills, and testing out fanatic of xenagos. Seems to be working pretty well atm.
It won a single tournament based largely on the surprise factor. It is in absolutely no way "warping the format." It's not at the dominating level Affinity was in Onslaught-Mirrodin standard or Jund was in Alara-Zendikar standard. It's beatable deck that made an impressive showing at a tournament that is lower level than a PTQ.
It won a single tournament based largely on the surprise factor. It is in absolutely no way "warping the format." It's not at the dominating level Affinity was in Onslaught-Mirrodin standard or Jund was in Alara-Zendikar standard. It's beatable deck that made an impressive showing at a tournament that is lower level than a PTQ.
For everyone's sake, please calm down.
This x100. Oakland is a fairly fringe scene. Hardly anyone there packed proper hate for the combo, despite Lee Shi Tian getting top 8 at pro tour khans with it. Plus, most of Jen's matches were highly favorable regardless of who piloted them, and they weren't being piloted by pros.
Less than 2 weeks have passed. Don't think we've seen the last of it.
Agreed, but I don't see this deck making a huge difference, it's pretty fragile and really needs to have good matchups and masterful piloting to be effective.
The sticker: Not 1 deck he played seemed well equipped to beat him. The fact was that all the g/x midrange as well as jeskai tempo decks were simply a) way too slow b) couldn't meaningfully interact with the combo. That means that this deck beats essentially every deck in the format. On top of that, it is impressively cheap to build, with the exception of its landbase, making the deck highly accessible. Your format is now totally going to be warped to beat this deck.
This post may seem a little alarmist, but again, all you need do is check the SCG video archives to see this deck combo out from an empty board with just a few cards. So, Fire up your idea threads, modify your primers. This deck is here to stay, unless, of course, ascendancy is banned.
sigh
to save my fingers a ton of work, I'm just going to quote a post from a different thread
I'm not even touching on the fact that you couldn't justify maining 3-4 mainboard copies of enchantment removal for cards like gods, or suspension field that are barely played, if at all.
this is what sideboards are for
just have a plan against it like any other deck you might encounter
"warping the format" is an absolutely outrageous claim
Here's the deal, this deck uses its combo to remove the major drawbacks of a aggro archetype. You handle aggro by blunting the early creature rush, stabilizing, and letting them run out of gas. If an aggro deck does not win by turn X, it probably isn't going to. This deck gets around it by incorporating a win condition that gives absolute victory and is normally available around turn Y. This means that an opposing deck has to execute its plan and win between turn x-when the aggro package runs out of gas and turn Y-when the combo kicks in. Unfortunately, it looks like X is about turn 3 and Y is turn 4.
There are a couple of problems in packing hate for enchantments. First, it's a (mostly) dead card against the decks aggro package. Further, it requires you to hold up mana. This is an aggro deck where the opponent needs to have a dead card in hand and hold two mana simply to not lose, which is basically giving the aggro decks creatures free reign for the win. This thing is probably 80-90% to win on the play.
Control simply is not a workable strategy against heroic combo. Control in Khans is so slow that heroic aggro can slide in under it.
I suspect this will take over the format very quickly.
Wizards should (at least) ban Helix ASAP. Khans was to be a midrange creature feature block. The sales on it have been just out of sight. Aggro-combo obsoletes midrange. Let me rephrase that: this combo obsoletes almost everything in the planned three block set, and most of the last set. This is why Combo has been R&D's big red "don't press this unless you want to die" button. They pressed it, now the only question is how bad things are going to get. Until something shows me that this is beatable, I really have no desire for Khans packs, or for fate reforged. Game balance might not require a banning, but I suspect business reasons-the need to sell product-means that something will be done quickly. If a Wall Street analyst has to know what a combo deck is to figure out Hasbro's earnings, people at WotC R&D are going to find themselves out of a job fast.
T
The problem with the deck is the combination of an explosive start with late-game inevitability. Most Aggro decks start strong, but the longer the game progresses the less likely they are to pull out a win with their lower impact spells - that's just the nature of running a deck with low cc spells - when you're top decking one-drops on turns 8+, you're probably not doing so hot. Because of Ascendancy, though, the deck actually has more inevitability than current Midrange decks, so not only is its early game superior, but it has a better late game too.
I'm not sure what the solution is. Normally you want to beat a deck by either:
1. Getting lethal damage in before the other deck can stabilize, or
2. Grinding the game out by gaining incremental advantages until you win.
But this deck defends against both of those strategies really really well.
Perhaps the answer is a pure Control deck? Assuming a pure Control deck in this Standard has the tools to reliably stop/slow the initial Aggro rush, of course.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
boss sligh is a tough matchup for the deck and it will probably have to adapt to that. Cards like Triton Tactics and Magma Spray will have to start being SB'd I assume.
Look at the decks he played though.
UW heroic
GB constellation x 3
Finally landed an actual tier 1 deck (in my opinion) in the finals and the dude gets severe mana screw in game 1, lost game 2. So it pretty much only needed to win 1 real game of magic and it got a lucky Negate to stop an all in End Hostilities.
Erase and Reclamation Sage are going to hose Jeskai Ascendancy.
You know what else costs 1 and hoses enchantments? Annul
R1 - Jund Monsters
R2 - R/G Monsters
R3 - U/W Control (was actually a draw but opponent conceded)
R4 - Temur Monsters (Qtr Finalist)
R5 - Abzan Control
R6 - Jeskai Aggro (Vidi Wijaya)
R7 - U/W Heroic
R8 - G/B Constellations
R9 - Abzan (Semi-Finalist)
R10 - ID
Ivan was probably lucky to be holding the Negate. However, the Ajani's Presence on Akroan Crusader would likely have been a blowout anyway since it would chain the next turn into Dragon Mantle, God's Willing and Retraction Helix, which we know he drew, never mind the replacement card for Negate or whatever he would draw off Dragon Mantle.
It goes off sometimes, sure, but it never looked unstoppable to me. There is no draw in that deck, they are lucky to even get an Ascendancy, let alone the other pieces. Ivan was incredibly lucky in a lot of those games and his 18 land mana base is a joke. He had a great run, it happens. If you watched, he top decked like a beast.
This deck and whip decks will get demolished when people realize they need enchantment hate. The next set will probably add some efficient ones, too. This was bound to happen, people are all out ignoring enchantments right now, but that wont last.
EDIT: Also, this deck has been done before (sort of) and it did well, but people didnt give a sht. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29652_The-Jeskai-Dilemma.html
Thoughtseize
Despise
Ulcerate
Annul
Erase
Deicide
Destructive Revelry
Reclamation Sage + Chord of Calling (the tutor effect matters)
Bile Blight
Back to Nature
Naturalize
Sultai Charm
Last Breath
Negate
Reprisal
Abzan Charm
Devouring Light
Hero's Downfall
Kill Shot
Hour of Need
Pillar of Light
Swan Song
Stubborn Denial (variably)
Gainsay
Things must be rougher than I thought...
Thirst for Knowledge % to hit artifact
LOL.. please tell me this is a joke.
This is not the first time i've seen this deck compared to legacy combo decks...
Do the people who make these claims not watch any legacy. Almost all legacy combo decks have the ability to win on turn one or turn two comparing this deck to legacy is absurd.
Except for the fact that he piloted the deck to a X-1-1 record not an X-0 record
People are not playing Anger of the Gods because of Abazan Midrange. Since Abazan (courser/caryatid) decks are the majority of the field anger is terrible against them. That left a hole for this deck. Surprisingly Abzan has a great match up against this deck.
I think we found the 3rd pillar of standard since control is gone. Abazan, Jeskai combo, and everything else.
I'm surprised that I still see 0 back to nature in people's sideboards. It is live vs every deck is 2 mana and instant.
For everyone's sake, please calm down.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
This x100. Oakland is a fairly fringe scene. Hardly anyone there packed proper hate for the combo, despite Lee Shi Tian getting top 8 at pro tour khans with it. Plus, most of Jen's matches were highly favorable regardless of who piloted them, and they weren't being piloted by pros.
Agreed, but I don't see this deck making a huge difference, it's pretty fragile and really needs to have good matchups and masterful piloting to be effective.