I've been having issues playing aggro against a plethora of Sylvan Caryatid / Courser of Kruphix decks. Short of playing those decks myself, what particular deck archetype is strong against them in this Standard and can provide the best answers to them?
Assume a very competitive meta, well informed about the common decks out there.
Edit: preys. I caught the typo, but the forum won't let me change the title.
Jeskai tempo has a small advantage too, along with a well prepared UB control.
Jeskai would.... If I didn't run 4 Hero's Downfall mainboard. Combo's another issue though, and it's beginning to irritate me. Turn 3 infinite? Cripes man, who can deal with that?
W/U Heroic has a very high win percentage against Green Devotion, I've found. They don't have removal so you can use your target spells without fear of 2-for-1 and then Aqueous Form and Stratus Walk allow you to attack past their higher-toughness creatures to get the last points of damage in.
Actually, my matches against Ashiok is very favorable.
G/b Devotion...
vs American Tempo: Even
vs Junk: About a 60/40 either way
vs Ashiok: Favorable
vs aggro (doesn't matter what colors are used): Very favorable
vs burn: even unless my creatures live long enough to play the bigger threats and then very favorable
vs Ashiok: Almost a gimmie
vs Combo: Was 80/20 against us... With cards used like Stain the Mind it becomes a 100% chance for G/b devotion to beat it.
G/X isn't specific enough. Sure these decks have courser and caryatid but their strategies can be very different. Like abzan grinding you under virtual CA. Mono green devotion trying to go big. G/B constellations.
Honestly courser/caryatid are just the best things in their mana curve right now. We live in a world of very bad 2 and 3 drops. I honestly think you should just ignore both. Caryatid isn't interactive and courser doesn't actually do a lot in a game. You should plan on beating their main strategy not these 2 cards.
Anyone saying jeskai aggro/tempo/wins (whatever) is favored against abzan hasn't played the match enough. They have to draw none of their removal, no more then 1 siege rhino AND you keep their sorins off the field. If they kill your first creature and then resolve a siege rhino/sorin for a big lifegain, it's pretty much game right then.
Now.. hushwing gryff can help a lot in this instance, but it's pretty weak against most other decks so your overall win % goes down if you maindeck them unless the tourney is HEAVY abzan.
Was gonna make a new thread about this actually. I just won an elite IQ with UW heroic this last weekend, and I feel like people are really sleeping on this deck. It's 'worst' matchup is Mardu, and it's not even that bad (maybe 60-40 if you lose coinflip, and close to 50-50 if you win it).
Jeskai tempo, which has been falling off anyways, is a similarly 'bad' matchup. But, against everything else I felt supremely favored.
Debating starting a primer for it, but I've only been playing it for less then a week. I think the key to it is playing it in a 'counter punch'/aggro-control style against most decks. I.e. if you have a protection spell in hand (and I play 7 total in main, 2 more in side) you never tap out, only buffing your creatures with the leftover mana. If they ever go to kill your guy, using an ajani's presence, god's willing, or feat of resistance to 'counter' the spell and pumping the creature is a HUGE play.
Some of the Hero of iroas + Ordeal of Thassa draws make the deck feel kind of like affinity before skullclamp was banned. "Cast Ordeal for U, attack, trigger to draw 2, cast god's willing and defiant strike that I drew to force it past your blockers and win"-kind of shenanigans.
The Heliod's pilgrim toolbox lets you put away a lot of games right when you'd normally run out of gas in this kind of deck too.
Basically, it's very solid overall. Great aggro plan that can keep up the pressure into mid game when most aggro decks fall off, and the long shot late game plan to sneak in some wins when you'd normally have no chance.
Only changes I made to Tom Ross's most recent list was cutting Eidolon of Countless Battles for Fabled Heros (if eidolon was bigger then 2/2, I probably had a ton of auras out and was winning anyways), and trimming Battlewise Hoplites for some Lagonna-band trailblazers in the main (to maximize chance at a 1 drop, that also doesn't die to most of the removal available on turn 2 to other decks).
I built my jeskai control deck (in sig) to prey upon midrange strategies, and it does an extremely good job of that. I'm always pumped to see green mana hit the table. Only exception is some temur builds have too much haste and I fall behind. But abzan and devotion are easy wins a very large percentage of the time.
As an Abzan Midrange player, I'd say Jeskai Ascendancy Combo, Mardu Midrange and a specifically tuned control deck in any colors that includes white are the worst to be matched up against.
My tapped lands are a bit slow to keep up with a T3-T4 combo win and my removal is too expensive to try and kill every mana creature. If you don't draw your combo; however, I'll likely win easily. I do sideboard heavily with enchantment removal if I expect this deck in the meta so G1 is usually terrible and G2/G3 are quite winnable.
Mardu Midrange is strong against Abzan Midrange for a number of reasons. The Mardu creatures line up well against the Abzan removal. The Mardu removal lines up well against the Abzan creatures. Even the Mardu creatures along the curve line favorably against the Abzan creatures. The only upside I've noticed in favor of Abzan is if you're both in topdeck mode Abzan's draws are fairly deadly depending on the build. When I win this match-up I usually feel it is because I outplayed my opponent. The decks on paper are actually pretty lopsided in Mardu's favor, although Abzan is evolving to deal with this. If you're having trouble with Abzan Midrange or decks like it, I'd try Mardu Midrange (watch out though because the Green Devotion style of play is typically favored against Mardu).
Against a specifically tuned control deck, I usually have to outplay or outdraw my opponent. If they draw everything they put in the deck to beat my deck specifically, they probably win. That said, I don't focus much on this match-up because I rarely face it in later rounds of events. They tend to lose to other decks because it's so hard to tune a control deck right now to beat everyone.
With Frontier Siege and a possible turn 4 Ugin, G/b devotion is able to stomp most aggro decks and has a fair to poor poor matchup against Bug control. I'm in love with Ugin because it will exile everything 3 or less and take control from there.
My Abzan control deck has faired pretty well. Idk that I'd say 'preys on' but it doesn't do bad. Remove their ramp and keep their bombs in check. Board wipes are pretty good too.
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Assume a very competitive meta, well informed about the common decks out there.
Edit: preys. I caught the typo, but the forum won't let me change the title.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
Mainly this.
Jeskai tempo has a small advantage too, along with a well prepared UB control.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Jeskai would.... If I didn't run 4 Hero's Downfall mainboard. Combo's another issue though, and it's beginning to irritate me. Turn 3 infinite? Cripes man, who can deal with that?
Ascendancy Combo is very favorable against G/x devotion, so might be a good deck to use. It's only problem is decks with lots of thoughtseize.
Actually, my matches against Ashiok is very favorable.
G/b Devotion...
vs American Tempo: Even
vs Junk: About a 60/40 either way
vs Ashiok: Favorable
vs aggro (doesn't matter what colors are used): Very favorable
vs burn: even unless my creatures live long enough to play the bigger threats and then very favorable
vs Ashiok: Almost a gimmie
vs Combo: Was 80/20 against us... With cards used like Stain the Mind it becomes a 100% chance for G/b devotion to beat it.
Standard: UB control.
now, what did prays on ascendancy and Gx both?
Honestly courser/caryatid are just the best things in their mana curve right now. We live in a world of very bad 2 and 3 drops. I honestly think you should just ignore both. Caryatid isn't interactive and courser doesn't actually do a lot in a game. You should plan on beating their main strategy not these 2 cards.
Now.. hushwing gryff can help a lot in this instance, but it's pretty weak against most other decks so your overall win % goes down if you maindeck them unless the tourney is HEAVY abzan.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Was gonna make a new thread about this actually. I just won an elite IQ with UW heroic this last weekend, and I feel like people are really sleeping on this deck. It's 'worst' matchup is Mardu, and it's not even that bad (maybe 60-40 if you lose coinflip, and close to 50-50 if you win it).
Jeskai tempo, which has been falling off anyways, is a similarly 'bad' matchup. But, against everything else I felt supremely favored.
Debating starting a primer for it, but I've only been playing it for less then a week. I think the key to it is playing it in a 'counter punch'/aggro-control style against most decks. I.e. if you have a protection spell in hand (and I play 7 total in main, 2 more in side) you never tap out, only buffing your creatures with the leftover mana. If they ever go to kill your guy, using an ajani's presence, god's willing, or feat of resistance to 'counter' the spell and pumping the creature is a HUGE play.
Some of the Hero of iroas + Ordeal of Thassa draws make the deck feel kind of like affinity before skullclamp was banned. "Cast Ordeal for U, attack, trigger to draw 2, cast god's willing and defiant strike that I drew to force it past your blockers and win"-kind of shenanigans.
The Heliod's pilgrim toolbox lets you put away a lot of games right when you'd normally run out of gas in this kind of deck too.
Basically, it's very solid overall. Great aggro plan that can keep up the pressure into mid game when most aggro decks fall off, and the long shot late game plan to sneak in some wins when you'd normally have no chance.
Only changes I made to Tom Ross's most recent list was cutting Eidolon of Countless Battles for Fabled Heros (if eidolon was bigger then 2/2, I probably had a ton of auras out and was winning anyways), and trimming Battlewise Hoplites for some Lagonna-band trailblazers in the main (to maximize chance at a 1 drop, that also doesn't die to most of the removal available on turn 2 to other decks).
My tapped lands are a bit slow to keep up with a T3-T4 combo win and my removal is too expensive to try and kill every mana creature. If you don't draw your combo; however, I'll likely win easily. I do sideboard heavily with enchantment removal if I expect this deck in the meta so G1 is usually terrible and G2/G3 are quite winnable.
Mardu Midrange is strong against Abzan Midrange for a number of reasons. The Mardu creatures line up well against the Abzan removal. The Mardu removal lines up well against the Abzan creatures. Even the Mardu creatures along the curve line favorably against the Abzan creatures. The only upside I've noticed in favor of Abzan is if you're both in topdeck mode Abzan's draws are fairly deadly depending on the build. When I win this match-up I usually feel it is because I outplayed my opponent. The decks on paper are actually pretty lopsided in Mardu's favor, although Abzan is evolving to deal with this. If you're having trouble with Abzan Midrange or decks like it, I'd try Mardu Midrange (watch out though because the Green Devotion style of play is typically favored against Mardu).
Against a specifically tuned control deck, I usually have to outplay or outdraw my opponent. If they draw everything they put in the deck to beat my deck specifically, they probably win. That said, I don't focus much on this match-up because I rarely face it in later rounds of events. They tend to lose to other decks because it's so hard to tune a control deck right now to beat everyone.
UBRGrixis Kiki Control
BGUSultai Shadow
GWRBushwhacker Zoo
EDH:
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose
GWU Roon of the Hidden Realm