This is the second time I've reposted this. Do I need to reiterate?
That was like 2 weeks before I even posted. I had no idea it took so long but if I had been scouring old posts I would have known so I apologize for asking a question that had already been answered. Thanks.
So I've never had to worry about this much, with Abzan being a perennial Tier 1 / Proven deck and my other stuff being homebrew that doesn't belong in Competitive, but what are the exact distinguishing characteristics between Proven and Established, and what are both of them trying to represent?
I seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe earlier in the thread) that tournament results were a deciding factor, with Established being the "won a significant tournament and had some placings elsewhere" territory, and Proven being "multiple major tournament/championship victories and omnipresent in events." The drawback to doing it this way is that Jeskai Tempo is still in the Tier 1 subforum despite being at best a low Tier 2 deck right now, based on its dominance in the KTK era and strength in the FRF era. That is, the subfora don't accurately represent the current state of the metagame as much as they record the past history of it.
On the other hand, decks like Mardu Midrange and Boros Tempo have been booted out of Proven after not posting results for a while, so obviously the list is reflective of recent events and not just "you were dominant for XYZ timeframe so you're here forever." I would assume this is a real pain in the ass to keep updated and probably detrimental to the userbase to be too exact in keeping up with the metagame - decks fluctuate so much in their metagame position that you'd constantly be looking in the wrong forums for the deck you want to discuss! A prime example might be GRx Monsters, which skyrocketed to Proven in April but is already down to Tier 2 status in the metagame just a few weeks later.
Which of those interpretations - or another one I just missed, if neither suffices - would y'all consider most accurate?
Megamorph has also put up numbers and probably should also be included in Established. However, there appears to be no consensus on how to build a shell and a lot of the builds are over the place (and I'm just talking about tournament placing lists, not some of the other stuff we've seen in MTGS). Perhaps the best mode is to note that the megamorph package exists and then the other 52-53 cards are up in the air. We've seen Bant Megamorph, 4-color megamorph, Gw Megamorph, Gu Megamorph, Jund Megamorph -- so who knows how to really build it and I don't want to make a restrictive thread where, "ALL THE MEGAMORPH LISTS GO HERE." I think allowing a variety of megamorph threads to survive in SDC is the current best bet. Let me know your thoughts on this.
@scasseden: No current criteria have been developed for the Proven/Est. other than skimming tournament results and making sure there are no glaring omissions. Obviously, this leaves room for error which this thread is for.
Come September, I intend to have some sort of criteria developed but don't have all the details hammered out.
Thread Names: Usually, the OP's thread title is left "as is" when the thread is moved to proven/est. However, I will be changing UBx Pure Control to "UBx Control". Also, the Sultai Delve will be changed to Sultai Delve/Whip to allow for both non-Whip and Whip strategies to identify themselves in that thread.
The next change to Proven/Est. will be after GP Providence, which is 6/19-21.
Mardu has put up solid numbers and has quite a number of players doing well on it. While it hasn't had the t8 success of Gx Devotion, it has had a portion of top 64s or top 32s in GPs, Opens, and IQs.
- Temur Midrange to SDC
0 copies in day 2 of GP Providence. It doesn't get much better if you look further past this weekend.
The next Proven/Est. update will be 8/3 after PT Magic: Origins.
I've been attempting to build a Mono-red RDW deck. It appears the deck may not be as strong as I was hoping. It is better if I splash G for an R/G Variant, or BW for a Mardu variant? What do you guys think?
I've been attempting to build a Mono-red RDW deck. It appears the deck may not be as strong as I was hoping. It is better if I splash G for an R/G Variant, or BW for a Mardu variant? What do you guys think?
This is not the thread to talk about that.
The Standard Deck Creation forum would probably best for your ideas.
--Abzan Control/Megamorph/Aggro
--RDW/Red Aggro/Sligh
--UB Control
--Gr Devotion
I'm seeing Established as:
--U/R Artifact
--Abzan Rally
--Jeskai
--Sultai Control
--UW Heroic
--GR Monsters/Dragons
--Mardu midrange/Dragons
Lend me your thoughts and impressions.
G/r Deovtion and G/R Monsters/Dragons are essentially the same deck, no? Otherwise looks pretty good, although did U/B control really do well enough to warrant proven? Or do you like having a control deck in the proven section to limit the number of spam threads?
--Abzan Control/Megamorph/Aggro
--RDW/Red Aggro/Sligh
--UB Control
--Gr Devotion
I'm seeing Established as:
--U/R Artifact
--Abzan Rally
--Jeskai
--Sultai Control
--UW Heroic
--GR Monsters/Dragons
--Mardu midrange/Dragons
Lend me your thoughts and impressions.
Looks about right. UR Artifacts may be ready to move up to Proven soon though. Also, Atarka Red should probably be moved into Established, or just combined with RDW.
--Abzan Control/Megamorph/Aggro
--RDW/Red Aggro/Sligh
--UB Control
--Gr Devotion
I'm seeing Established as:
--U/R Artifact
--Abzan Rally
--Jeskai
--Sultai Control
--UW Heroic
--GR Monsters/Dragons
--Mardu midrange/Dragons
Lend me your thoughts and impressions.
Looks about right. UR Artifacts may be ready to move up to Proven soon though. Also, Atarka Red should probably be moved into Established, or just combined with RDW.
Pretty sure Atarka Red conversations have already been occurring in the RDW. Since, y'know, it won a PT back in the spring.
UR Artifacts is on watch for "proven" because it's so new. It could be the best deck in the format but it also could be a flash in the pan.
If you look at PT numbers, UR artifacts was putting insane numbers in the 9-1 and 8-2 brackets. However, I'd like to see it translate into non-PT metas like Abzan did after Lax smashed face with it in the fall.
--Abzan Control/Megamorph/Aggro
--RDW/Red Aggro/Sligh
--UB Control
--Gr Devotion
I'm seeing Established as:
--U/R Artifact
--Abzan Rally
--Jeskai
--Sultai Control
--UW Heroic
--GR Monsters/Dragons
--Mardu midrange/Dragons
Lend me your thoughts and impressions.
Looks about right. UR Artifacts may be ready to move up to Proven soon though. Also, Atarka Red should probably be moved into Established, or just combined with RDW.
Pretty sure Atarka Red conversations have already been occurring in the RDW. Since, y'know, it won a PT back in the spring.
UR Artifacts is on watch for "proven" because it's so new. It could be the best deck in the format but it also could be a flash in the pan.
If you look at PT numbers, UR artifacts was putting insane numbers in the 9-1 and 8-2 brackets. However, I'd like to see it translate into non-PT metas like Abzan did after Lax smashed face with it in the fall.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. And oh, wasn't aware of Atarka Red being part of the RDW thread.
--Abzan Control/Megamorph/Aggro
--RDW/Red Aggro/Sligh
--UB Control
--Gr Devotion
I'm seeing Established as:
--U/R Artifact
--Abzan Rally
--Jeskai
--Sultai Control
--UW Heroic
--GR Monsters/Dragons
--Mardu midrange/Dragons
Lend me your thoughts and impressions.
G/r Deovtion and G/R Monsters/Dragons are essentially the same deck, no? Otherwise looks pretty good, although did U/B control really do well enough to warrant proven? Or do you like having a control deck in the proven section to limit the number of spam threads?
Gr Devotion and GR Monsters differ on their top end.
One has Stormbreath and Thunderbreak. The other has Whisperwood, Polyk, and Nykthos.
I'm not positive either are great decks but given their performances between GP San Diego and GP London, I think they're worth putting in est. as a "display of what you'll see at a premier event".
Unreal how there is still only 1 Abzan threat in competitive. There has been 2 very distinct Abzan decks for last 9 months. It is akin to having 1 Grixis thread in Legacy since they play same colors even though one plays Dark Ritual and another plays Delver of Secret
While I agree that it's probably not the most coherent categorization, I actually prefer it that way, because there are very few dedicated Abzan Aggro or Abzan Control pilots posting in those threads. Much like how Abzan itself is just a spectrum of midrange decks tuned to be aggressive or controlling for particular circumstances, a lot of the players participating in the thread will switch back and forth along that spectrum from week to week. Having it all in one thread invites a highly useful, constant discussion about whether it's better to be on the controlling route or the aggressive route for a particular weekend.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern: RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy: BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
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http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1236026
If it was top 8 could we call the deck proven?
I feel like this deck is just being hated on.
This is the second time I've reposted this. Do I need to reiterate?
That was like 2 weeks before I even posted. I had no idea it took so long but if I had been scouring old posts I would have known so I apologize for asking a question that had already been answered. Thanks.
I seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe earlier in the thread) that tournament results were a deciding factor, with Established being the "won a significant tournament and had some placings elsewhere" territory, and Proven being "multiple major tournament/championship victories and omnipresent in events." The drawback to doing it this way is that Jeskai Tempo is still in the Tier 1 subforum despite being at best a low Tier 2 deck right now, based on its dominance in the KTK era and strength in the FRF era. That is, the subfora don't accurately represent the current state of the metagame as much as they record the past history of it.
On the other hand, decks like Mardu Midrange and Boros Tempo have been booted out of Proven after not posting results for a while, so obviously the list is reflective of recent events and not just "you were dominant for XYZ timeframe so you're here forever." I would assume this is a real pain in the ass to keep updated and probably detrimental to the userbase to be too exact in keeping up with the metagame - decks fluctuate so much in their metagame position that you'd constantly be looking in the wrong forums for the deck you want to discuss! A prime example might be GRx Monsters, which skyrocketed to Proven in April but is already down to Tier 2 status in the metagame just a few weeks later.
Which of those interpretations - or another one I just missed, if neither suffices - would y'all consider most accurate?
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
It's really not though. I know they're going to be updated next week, my question is which criteria are used in deciding how to update it
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Proven:
-Abzan
-UBx
-GRx Monsters
-Gx Devotion
-RDW/Sligh/Atarka Red
Est.:
-Jeskai
-UWx Heroic
-Mardu
-Temur
-Sultai Delve/Whip
Moved to SDC:
-Rw Aggro
-Sultai Control
The flavors of Megamorph and Collected Company are wide. Collected Company pretty easily goes into the Gx Collected Company thread, which might be warranted in Est.
Megamorph has also put up numbers and probably should also be included in Established. However, there appears to be no consensus on how to build a shell and a lot of the builds are over the place (and I'm just talking about tournament placing lists, not some of the other stuff we've seen in MTGS). Perhaps the best mode is to note that the megamorph package exists and then the other 52-53 cards are up in the air. We've seen Bant Megamorph, 4-color megamorph, Gw Megamorph, Gu Megamorph, Jund Megamorph -- so who knows how to really build it and I don't want to make a restrictive thread where, "ALL THE MEGAMORPH LISTS GO HERE." I think allowing a variety of megamorph threads to survive in SDC is the current best bet. Let me know your thoughts on this.
@scasseden: No current criteria have been developed for the Proven/Est. other than skimming tournament results and making sure there are no glaring omissions. Obviously, this leaves room for error which this thread is for.
Come September, I intend to have some sort of criteria developed but don't have all the details hammered out.
Thread Names: Usually, the OP's thread title is left "as is" when the thread is moved to proven/est. However, I will be changing UBx Pure Control to "UBx Control". Also, the Sultai Delve will be changed to Sultai Delve/Whip to allow for both non-Whip and Whip strategies to identify themselves in that thread.
The next change to Proven/Est. will be after GP Providence, which is 6/19-21.
- Mardu Midrange to Proven
Mardu has put up solid numbers and has quite a number of players doing well on it. While it hasn't had the t8 success of Gx Devotion, it has had a portion of top 64s or top 32s in GPs, Opens, and IQs.
- Temur Midrange to SDC
0 copies in day 2 of GP Providence. It doesn't get much better if you look further past this weekend.
The next Proven/Est. update will be 8/3 after PT Magic: Origins.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=409478
This is not the thread to talk about that.
The Standard Deck Creation forum would probably best for your ideas.
--Abzan Control/Megamorph/Aggro
--RDW/Red Aggro/Sligh
--UB Control
--Gr Devotion
I'm seeing Established as:
--U/R Artifact
--Abzan Rally
--Jeskai
--Sultai Control
--UW Heroic
--GR Monsters/Dragons
--Mardu midrange/Dragons
Lend me your thoughts and impressions.
G/r Deovtion and G/R Monsters/Dragons are essentially the same deck, no? Otherwise looks pretty good, although did U/B control really do well enough to warrant proven? Or do you like having a control deck in the proven section to limit the number of spam threads?
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
Looks about right. UR Artifacts may be ready to move up to Proven soon though. Also, Atarka Red should probably be moved into Established, or just combined with RDW.
Modern
UBR Grixis Control
U Merfolk
Pauper
U Mono U Delver
Ancestral Visions is freed
Pretty sure Atarka Red conversations have already been occurring in the RDW. Since, y'know, it won a PT back in the spring.
UR Artifacts is on watch for "proven" because it's so new. It could be the best deck in the format but it also could be a flash in the pan.
If you look at PT numbers, UR artifacts was putting insane numbers in the 9-1 and 8-2 brackets. However, I'd like to see it translate into non-PT metas like Abzan did after Lax smashed face with it in the fall.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. And oh, wasn't aware of Atarka Red being part of the RDW thread.
Modern
UBR Grixis Control
U Merfolk
Pauper
U Mono U Delver
Ancestral Visions is freed
Gr Devotion and GR Monsters differ on their top end.
One has Stormbreath and Thunderbreak. The other has Whisperwood, Polyk, and Nykthos.
UB put 20 copies into day 2.
Cueno's UR Mill to est.
BR Dragons to est.
I'm not positive either are great decks but given their performances between GP San Diego and GP London, I think they're worth putting in est. as a "display of what you'll see at a premier event".
While I agree that it's probably not the most coherent categorization, I actually prefer it that way, because there are very few dedicated Abzan Aggro or Abzan Control pilots posting in those threads. Much like how Abzan itself is just a spectrum of midrange decks tuned to be aggressive or controlling for particular circumstances, a lot of the players participating in the thread will switch back and forth along that spectrum from week to week. Having it all in one thread invites a highly useful, constant discussion about whether it's better to be on the controlling route or the aggressive route for a particular weekend.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB