Please feel free to provide your input. Note that there will be no Proven subforums this year, just threads, and we will be more able to move things around as the metagame changes. Thanks.
That list looks pretty solid to me. One kind of side question (as a new forum user), how are variants handled in the sections vs threads, for instance I would assume that for Jeskai Ascendancy/Combo the only real established/proven version is the g/r/w/u version, and the thread should pretty much stick to that shell? or for the R/W Agro would include both Heroic and Tokens since they both performed well.
I've surprised I haven't seen more Rabble Red/Boss Sligh discussion.
I think it is because we have not had a ton of broadcast events showing them off yet. Theoretically mono red lost a lot of fuel after rotation and until it gets some show time people tend to forget about it.
The list looks solid, any idea when the appropriate sub-forums will be officially updates?
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Lets look at the list that the Mothership provided about top performing decks ONLY in the Standard rounds.
15 Jeskai Tempo
14 Abzan
4 UB Control (no splash)
4 G/B Devotion
2 Mardu Midrange
2 Jeskai Ascendancy Combo
I feel like Abzan midrange and Abzan aggro are still very similar, and could be grouped together, as discussion for those decks will likely revolve around matchup analysis and sideboarding strategies, as well as SCD. It could be beneficial to merge Abzan aggro and Abzan Midrange.
I also feel that it would be irrational to give a "proven" tag to Ascendancy combo and leave out G/B Devotion, a multi-state champion and a good portion of the top Standard decks at the most recent Pro Tour.
My suggestion:
Proven - Jeskai Wins, Abzan, Golgari Devotion, Dimir Control
Lets look at the list that the Mothership provided about top performing decks ONLY in the Standard rounds.
15 Jeskai Tempo
14 Abzan
4 UB Control (no splash)
4 G/B Devotion
2 Mardu Midrange
2 Jeskai Ascendancy Combo
I feel like Abzan midrange and Abzan aggro are still very similar, and could be grouped together, as discussion for those decks will likely revolve around matchup analysis and sideboarding strategies, as well as SCD. It could be beneficial to merge Abzan aggro and Abzan Midrange.
I also feel that it would be irrational to give a "proven" tag to Ascendancy combo and leave out G/B Devotion, a multi-state champion and a good portion of the top Standard decks at the most recent Pro Tour.
My suggestion:
Proven - Jeskai Wins, Abzan, Golgari Devotion, Dimir Control
I think this is better. But I would actually go even further and say that right now it's only Jeskai Tempo and Abzan in Proven. You look at the results and there's no question that at the moment those two archetypes are dominating. Nothing else is even close to getting the same results (although given the volatility of the early metagame, this could change overnight).
Seems a bit rushed considering there is GP LA this weekend as well and the PT really only proved that the format is still in flux and that many of the decks had traits of being inbred.
I feel like Abzan midrange and Abzan aggro are still very similar, and could be grouped together, as discussion for those decks will likely revolve around matchup analysis and sideboarding strategies, as well as SCD. It could be beneficial to merge Abzan aggro and Abzan Midrange.
This is fine with me, anyone else have comments on this? Looking at the PT decklists, they do look mostly similar.
I also feel that it would be irrational to give a "proven" tag to Ascendancy combo and leave out G/B Devotion, a multi-state champion and a good portion of the top Standard decks at the most recent Pro Tour.
I considered G/x Devotion (not going to limit it to GB at this point) in Proven, we could possibly do that. For now I'm inclined to put Ascendancy in Proven based on the PT performance.
My suggestion:
Proven - Jeskai Wins, Abzan, Golgari Devotion, Dimir Control
A couple of Boss Sligh lists won States without Rabblemaster, so I don't want to go with "Rabble Red" as the archetype (besides, everything is playing Rabblemaster now). I don't think Brad Nelson's deck is really a tokens deck, it's more like Jeskai Aggro without the blue cards. Monsters, particularly Temur Monsters, is still successful enough to be in the mix. Naya Midrange is borderline. I don't think W/x Heroic has had enough success at this point.
I think this is better. But I would actually go even further and say that right now it's only Jeskai Tempo and Abzan in Proven. You look at the results and there's no question that at the moment those two archetypes are dominating. Nothing else is even close to getting the same results (although given the volatility of the early metagame, this could change overnight).
I don't agree with having a "Proven" forum with only two archetypes. Yes, they're the two best decks by a considerable margin, but there are plenty of other decks, and I don't want to do something like have 2 decks in Proven and 12 in Established. I believe the split should be fairly even.
Seems a bit rushed considering there is GP LA this weekend as well and the PT really only proved that the format is still in flux and that many of the decks had traits of being inbred.
I'm willing to review things after GP LA, or in a few weeks. However, we've have four weeks of this format already. We're not going to wait until the format is "settled," we'll be playing the Fate Reforged prerelease by then.
I think they should all be listed as established until GP LA. Any deck that top 8s both events should be moved to proven. I'm really worried about the combo deck being considered proven. I think it might simply have random walked into the top 8.
I think they should all be listed as established until GP LA. Any deck that top 8s both events should be moved to proven. I'm really worried about the combo deck being considered proven. I think it might simply have random walked into the top 8.
Mono-Black Aggro may not have had a major showing in the PT but it has had quite a few Top 8 showings in both SCG and TCG states. I believe it also had a few SCG IQ showings as well. It could be a contender for Established.
Mardu walkers/midrange deserves to be proven. Seems just as good as UB control.
It might be. Again, I'm using the Pro Tour T8 as a cutoff between Proven and Established. That's not a great barometer or anything, but we don't have much else in the way of objective measurements to go off of right now.
Mono-Black Aggro may not have had a major showing in the PT but it has had quite a few Top 8 showings in both SCG and TCG states. I believe it also had a few SCG IQ showings as well. It could be a contender for Established.
Honestly I think TCG States and the SCG IQ's are too small to consider at all. Here in MD, we had an IQ with attendance in the 20's, same for TCG States. SCG States got over 100. Even SCG States is far less significant than the Pro Tour or even the Week 1 SCG Opens. I didn't see much for MBA in the SCG States -- other top decks like Jeskai/Abzan seemed to be getting the wins, along with Boss Sligh standing out with two first-place finishes.
Mardu walkers/midrange deserves to be proven. Seems just as good as UB control.
It might be. Again, I'm using the Pro Tour T8 as a cutoff between Proven and Established. That's not a great barometer or anything, but we don't have much else in the way of objective measurements to go off of right now.
By saying that you're pretty much saying that is a deck is better because the person that played it is better at drafting or had better tie breaks in the case of Jeskai Ascendancy combo.
Plenty of decks did around the same.
I do get that you need somewhere to start and Mardu midrange made it to the finals of the only new standard SCG open we've had so far which is why I think it's a good deck.
I would include Jeskai Tempo and Abzan Midrange in Proven.
I would group things together more and be a little broader in Established:
- G/x Devotion or Monsters
- R/x Aggro
- Mardu
- Jeskai
- Abzan
- Temur
- UB/x Control
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GR Midrange won GPLA (pilot by a player with limited tournament experience). I'd like to see how many Jeskai decks were at the open. My feeling is that Jeskai might be underperforming and represented at SCG simply because of the numbers that were in the field.
The cards to beat right now are Rino, Courser and Caryadid
I would actually put up U/B/x Control instad of just Dimir Control to cover Esper Control aswell.
This. Esper is still a good deck. Just because we do not have the cards that just rotated does not mean it does not do well enough to top 8. I expect to see Esper start seeing play in the coming weeks.
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currently playing:
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I would expect the Proven and by extension the Established sub forum to mean just that, archetypes that are proven or established, not archetypes we think or hope will be.
I'm sure Esper is a fine deck and once it starts putting up adequate numbers I'd have no qualms having it in either sub. As it stands though, it isn't, so I do.
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G/x Devotion and/or G/R should be in Established imo (but G/x devotion seems to be not played as much lately or not doing well?. Boss and Rabblered to Established. Also does Ascendancy Combo really belong in Established?
With the Pro Tour behind us, it's time to decide what is "Proven" and "Established" in the current metagame. Here's what we have to work with:
Pro Tour KTK Top 8:
2 Abzan Midrange (winner)
3 Jeskai Aggro
1 Abzan Aggro
1 U/B Control
1 Jeskai Ascendancy
Other PTKTK top performers:
-Mardu Midrange
-Temur Monsters
-G/R Monsters
-R/w Heroic
-R/w Tokens
-Naya Midrange
-Mono-Green Devotion
-G/B Devotion
-Esper Control
Looking at Opens/IQ's/States, the only other deck I might add is Mono-Red Aggro (Rabble Red and Boss Sligh) which won multiple States tournaments.
Here's what I propose as the current metagame breakdown:
Proven:
-Abzan Midrange
-Jeskai Aggro
-Abzan Aggro
-UB/x Control
-Jeskai Ascendancy
Established:
-G/x Devotion
-Mardu Midrange
-GR/x Monsters
-R/w Aggro
-Boss Sligh
-Naya Midrange
Please feel free to provide your input. Note that there will be no Proven subforums this year, just threads, and we will be more able to move things around as the metagame changes. Thanks.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
I think it is because we have not had a ton of broadcast events showing them off yet. Theoretically mono red lost a lot of fuel after rotation and until it gets some show time people tend to forget about it.
The list looks solid, any idea when the appropriate sub-forums will be officially updates?
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
I'll update within the next couple of days.
15 Jeskai Tempo
14 Abzan
4 UB Control (no splash)
4 G/B Devotion
2 Mardu Midrange
2 Jeskai Ascendancy Combo
I feel like Abzan midrange and Abzan aggro are still very similar, and could be grouped together, as discussion for those decks will likely revolve around matchup analysis and sideboarding strategies, as well as SCD. It could be beneficial to merge Abzan aggro and Abzan Midrange.
I also feel that it would be irrational to give a "proven" tag to Ascendancy combo and leave out G/B Devotion, a multi-state champion and a good portion of the top Standard decks at the most recent Pro Tour.
My suggestion:
Proven - Jeskai Wins, Abzan, Golgari Devotion, Dimir Control
Established - Rabble Red, W/x Heroic, R/W/X Tokens, Jeskai Ascendancy Combo, Mardu Midrange
I think this is better. But I would actually go even further and say that right now it's only Jeskai Tempo and Abzan in Proven. You look at the results and there's no question that at the moment those two archetypes are dominating. Nothing else is even close to getting the same results (although given the volatility of the early metagame, this could change overnight).
This is fine with me, anyone else have comments on this? Looking at the PT decklists, they do look mostly similar.
I considered G/x Devotion (not going to limit it to GB at this point) in Proven, we could possibly do that. For now I'm inclined to put Ascendancy in Proven based on the PT performance.
I'd suggest instead:
Proven: Jeskai Aggro, Abzan, G/x Devotion, UB Control, Jeskai Ascendancy
Established: Mono-Red, R/w Aggro, Mardu Midrange, GR/x Monsters, Naya Midrange
A couple of Boss Sligh lists won States without Rabblemaster, so I don't want to go with "Rabble Red" as the archetype (besides, everything is playing Rabblemaster now). I don't think Brad Nelson's deck is really a tokens deck, it's more like Jeskai Aggro without the blue cards. Monsters, particularly Temur Monsters, is still successful enough to be in the mix. Naya Midrange is borderline. I don't think W/x Heroic has had enough success at this point.
I don't agree with having a "Proven" forum with only two archetypes. Yes, they're the two best decks by a considerable margin, but there are plenty of other decks, and I don't want to do something like have 2 decks in Proven and 12 in Established. I believe the split should be fairly even.
I'm willing to review things after GP LA, or in a few weeks. However, we've have four weeks of this format already. We're not going to wait until the format is "settled," we'll be playing the Fate Reforged prerelease by then.
I kinda think that established should also include the Japanese Robots deck that is as popular over there as Abzan/Jeskai are in the states.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
This...
I have GR/x Monsters as "Established" which to me covers Temur. Straight G/R Monsters also showed up at PTKTK.
It might be. Again, I'm using the Pro Tour T8 as a cutoff between Proven and Established. That's not a great barometer or anything, but we don't have much else in the way of objective measurements to go off of right now.
Honestly I think TCG States and the SCG IQ's are too small to consider at all. Here in MD, we had an IQ with attendance in the 20's, same for TCG States. SCG States got over 100. Even SCG States is far less significant than the Pro Tour or even the Week 1 SCG Opens. I didn't see much for MBA in the SCG States -- other top decks like Jeskai/Abzan seemed to be getting the wins, along with Boss Sligh standing out with two first-place finishes.
By saying that you're pretty much saying that is a deck is better because the person that played it is better at drafting or had better tie breaks in the case of Jeskai Ascendancy combo.
Plenty of decks did around the same.
I do get that you need somewhere to start and Mardu midrange made it to the finals of the only new standard SCG open we've had so far which is why I think it's a good deck.
I would include Jeskai Tempo and Abzan Midrange in Proven.
I would group things together more and be a little broader in Established:
- G/x Devotion or Monsters
- R/x Aggro
- Mardu
- Jeskai
- Abzan
- Temur
- UB/x Control
The cards to beat right now are Rino, Courser and Caryadid
This. Esper is still a good deck. Just because we do not have the cards that just rotated does not mean it does not do well enough to top 8. I expect to see Esper start seeing play in the coming weeks.
currently playing:
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UW Control
UWB Control
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BRGJund
X Affinity
UWR Control
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R Burn
UWx Miracles
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I'm sure Esper is a fine deck and once it starts putting up adequate numbers I'd have no qualms having it in either sub. As it stands though, it isn't, so I do.
Standard
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