How about main deck Disdainful Stroke? You can leave up counter mana and then burn if the Rhino doesn't get played.
There was 3 Jeskai wins decks in the top 8. In comparison there was only 1 Mono black deck in the top 8 of PT Theros and we know how that deck turned out after a little tweaking.
This deck has all the potential in the world. Just needs the tools to beat Abzan midrange.
If anybody has any thoughts on this please jump in.
How about main deck Disdainful Stroke? You can leave up counter mana and then burn if the Rhino doesn't get played.
There was 3 Jeskai wins decks in the top 8. In comparison there was only 1 Mono black deck in the top 8 of PT Theros and we know how that deck turned out after a little tweaking.
This deck has all the potential in the world. Just needs the tools to beat Abzan midrange.
If anybody has any thoughts on this please jump in.
Honestly having access to Disdainful Stroke is huge vs Abzhan. I strongly believe the main reason why the Jeski Wins player lost the pro tour was due to the fact that he over-tuned his deck to beat Jeski Combo. As a result he had less sideboard options vs Abzhan.
I also think having some number of Dig Through Time is crucial. I'd argue that is the main reason why the Jeski deck with it made the finals. It's sooooo much value.
The finals of the Pro-Tour was actually quite close (3-1). And it only ended because Lax top decked the Siege Rhino he needed while his opponent had lethal in hand. Even then... Shaun could have top decked a dig to potentially end it or another burn spell to end it.
I did not like Shaun's choice to have Anger of the Gods maindecked. I think that could easily be replaced with another threat like StormBreath Dragon.
Would x2 stormbreaths and x2 sarkhans be too many five drops though?
I wonder if Glare of Heresy could be an option in the sideboard? It takes out Seige, Wingman Roc, and Sorin - all three of which are problematic to us. I am personally in love with Ashcloud Phoenix of some number in the main. I have found Abzan has an issue with getting rid of it short of burning a charm on it - which makes it quite a bit more resilient option than SBD.Erase is good SB to get rid of Whip of Erebos, Courser of Kruphix, and Nyx-Fleece Ram.Hushwing Gryff is a great SB option as well. We have a lot of options at our disposal - it's just what ones would be the most optimal.
Ashcloud Phoenix is great along with Stormbreath Dragon as one curves into the other and then curves into the morph cost which can deal another 2 damage then curves into the monstrosity cost for dragon which can deal even more damage.
Abzan Rhino decks ripped it to shreds in the pro tour top 8.
"I gain 3 life" "Oh... what do I do now?"
Burn might not be the way to go forward with this deck.
Of the games I watched in the PT, at least 2 or 3 of the games were decided more by mana then spells, or the Abzan player was ripping 3 rhino's in the first 10-12 turns vs mediocre to average draws. And all this is before you consider Jeskai tempo was a much more solid shell of a deck prior to the PT then the Abzan decks were.
I won't say Jeskai has a favorable match up here, but I really don't think it's the blow out you or many are describing either. Personally I think have have 2 great options for Abzan.
1. Side in a few answers to their big threats (bigger fliers, and counter magic)
2. Have a side board that lets you switch into nearly a pure Jeskai control deck. (includes all of 1, but more board sweepers/creature control)
Essentially I am hoping to build in a way where I can do number 1 if I am on the play, and number 2 if I am on the draw.
I'm not sure why I'm helping considering Abzan midrange is the deck I'm going to be playing until the wheels fall off, but I do remember seeing a few copies of Fated Conflagration at the feature tables late on Saturday - it's a turn 4 response to their turn 4 rhino, and can also kill any walker the turn it comers in except a liliana that's rolled up (and almost always she'll be rolled down the turn she comes in).
Might be worth considering.
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Mindswipe is pretty good against rhino. I find that having it plus disdainful stroke helps substantially to counter the rhino plays, where t3/t4 they generally need to tap out for it anyways, unless they have a really good curve.
Abzan Rhino decks ripped it to shreds in the pro tour top 8.
"I gain 3 life" "Oh... what do I do now?"
Burn might not be the way to go forward with this deck.
The top 8 of the Pro-Tour was misleading in this regard for two very obvious reasons.
1) 2/3 of top 8 Jeskai win decks did not run Dig Through Time. This card is crucial and helps a TON vs abzhan. In fact I'd argue is an automatic 2-of at the bare minimum. It just wins games. Siege Rhino's life gain matters less when you have the ability to dig through 7 cards at instant speed.
2) Shaun's deck (the Jeski-Wins in the final) was over-tuned to beat Jeski combo, not Abzhan. On the other hand, his opponent had tuned his deck to beat Jeski-Wins. This basically meant that the Abzhan player had the advantage.
Disdainful Stroke is fantastic against Abzan, it counters all of their most relevant threats. I also run 4 God's Willing mainboard, which can let you swing past blockers, avoid removal, and block big creatures with Mantis Rider. Deflecting Palm is also a great sideboard card. It can easily create an 8-10 point life swing, and once you play it they will often avoid attacking with big creatures when they are really low for fear of losing to it, buying you time to draw more burn.
I strongly disagree with soul of shandalar. For one, Charm can take care of it no problem, and the burn isn't worth 11 mana over two turns if they Downfall it. It is marginal card advantage and huge tempo loss that you cannot afford. Also, with no ramp I don't think the deck has the mana to run it effectively. I think the five drops are as high as we can go (and Ashcloud). With Sarkhan and Stormbreath, I think that's all we need
Shahar and Ben Stark mainboarded 3 Nullify which seems very good in this creature meta. Have to tweak the mana base to play them but it seems worth it.
Nullify seems really good if you're on the play and have the UU.
For me the key to beating Abzan is just getting big flyers out which prevent them being able to stick planeswalkers. The burn spells just feel woefully inadequate when you want to burn a walker and they all tick straight to 5.
Yes, Goblin Rabblemaster is the best card in the deck.
I won my difficult Abzan matchup last night in 3 games, solely on the shoulders of turn 3 rabblemasters.
Siege Rhino is terrifying, there is no doubt about that whatsoever. He's scarier with Sorin. 5 Power kills both Chandra and Sarkhan, and shifts life by 10. That's crippling. We really can't do anything to stop that once its resolved.
The key is speeding up their clock so that when Siege Rhino hits, they're within burn range still. We can't Out-Midrange Abzan Midrange. It CANNOT be done. There are many who have tried to build this deck with a transformational element that would allow it to play a long-game strategy.
But our deck wins by getting "in there" fast and hard enough that when Abzan tries to turn the corner, they're already near lethal. Hushwing Gryff helps with that. It's a reverse lightning helix that attacks for 2 when Siege Rhino hits. Oh, it also has the effect of making Wingmate Roc inferior to Serra Angel.
Against Abzan, should you win game 1, leave all your speed in the deck, Take out your Dig Through Times, and put in your Hushwing Gryffs. Take your your Sarkhans, and put in your Stormbreaths. Congratulations, they didn't expect it and you're odds of winning game 2 are closer to 50%.
I think there's a larger issue than making jeskai burn work against abzan. It's: what are the viable answers to siege rhino? Aside from Disdainful Stroke and other such countermagic, it seems like the 6-point lifeswing is kinda game-ending in multiples. Abzan is a super easy deck to beat if they don't sraw more than one rhino, but once they're dropping 2-3 in a match it's super hard to beat with any deck because they've got 29 life and you've got 11, or whatever.
It's like trying to play burn against a life total of 30 when you play Abzan decks. What do you do?
I was able to get the upper hand in a game 3 the other day by playing Prognostic Sphinx and Hushwing Gryff but the round timed out before I could make anything like a good dent in his life total. Sorin and Siege Rhino just having a party against me.
Confirming Disdainful Stroke is ridiculously good in this matchup.
Also glare of heresy. I like to have at least 3 in the sideboard if you're expecting a heavy abzan meta. Almost everything they play that slip by strokes can be taken care of by glare.
I do like Glare, but two or three of their most high impact cards have significant effects that Glare doesn't clean up - Rhino's life drain, Wingmate Roc's wingmate, and Elspeth's 1/1s. Stroke trades with the whole problem, Glare with only two thirds of it.
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I think this deck is still good and can become more consistent it just needs some modification.
Perhaps the deck can itself play creatures to trump the Rhino?
Soul of Shandalar seems good here and still gives you that burn if you need it even if it eats a Hero's Downfall.
Hushwing Gryff shuts off the life gain trigger from the Siege Rhino.
Possibly some main deck Stormbreath Dragon as it's pro white and avoids the Abzan Charm.
How about main deck Disdainful Stroke? You can leave up counter mana and then burn if the Rhino doesn't get played.
There was 3 Jeskai wins decks in the top 8. In comparison there was only 1 Mono black deck in the top 8 of PT Theros and we know how that deck turned out after a little tweaking.
This deck has all the potential in the world. Just needs the tools to beat Abzan midrange.
If anybody has any thoughts on this please jump in.
Honestly having access to Disdainful Stroke is huge vs Abzhan. I strongly believe the main reason why the Jeski Wins player lost the pro tour was due to the fact that he over-tuned his deck to beat Jeski Combo. As a result he had less sideboard options vs Abzhan.
I also think having some number of Dig Through Time is crucial. I'd argue that is the main reason why the Jeski deck with it made the finals. It's sooooo much value.
The finals of the Pro-Tour was actually quite close (3-1). And it only ended because Lax top decked the Siege Rhino he needed while his opponent had lethal in hand. Even then... Shaun could have top decked a dig to potentially end it or another burn spell to end it.
I did not like Shaun's choice to have Anger of the Gods maindecked. I think that could easily be replaced with another threat like StormBreath Dragon.
Would x2 stormbreaths and x2 sarkhans be too many five drops though?
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I like Parke's list which would be here http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptktk/top-standard-decks-o-z-2014-10-12
I think he had poor draft results but his deck seems like it was tweaked for beating Abzan more with Disdainful Stroke and Stormbreath in the main.
Abzan Rhino decks ripped it to shreds in the pro tour top 8.
"I gain 3 life" "Oh... what do I do now?"
Burn might not be the way to go forward with this deck.
Of the games I watched in the PT, at least 2 or 3 of the games were decided more by mana then spells, or the Abzan player was ripping 3 rhino's in the first 10-12 turns vs mediocre to average draws. And all this is before you consider Jeskai tempo was a much more solid shell of a deck prior to the PT then the Abzan decks were.
I won't say Jeskai has a favorable match up here, but I really don't think it's the blow out you or many are describing either. Personally I think have have 2 great options for Abzan.
1. Side in a few answers to their big threats (bigger fliers, and counter magic)
2. Have a side board that lets you switch into nearly a pure Jeskai control deck. (includes all of 1, but more board sweepers/creature control)
Essentially I am hoping to build in a way where I can do number 1 if I am on the play, and number 2 if I am on the draw.
Might be worth considering.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
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The top 8 of the Pro-Tour was misleading in this regard for two very obvious reasons.
1) 2/3 of top 8 Jeskai win decks did not run Dig Through Time. This card is crucial and helps a TON vs abzhan. In fact I'd argue is an automatic 2-of at the bare minimum. It just wins games. Siege Rhino's life gain matters less when you have the ability to dig through 7 cards at instant speed.
2) Shaun's deck (the Jeski-Wins in the final) was over-tuned to beat Jeski combo, not Abzhan. On the other hand, his opponent had tuned his deck to beat Jeski-Wins. This basically meant that the Abzhan player had the advantage.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Deflecting Palm is also a great sideboard card. It can easily create an 8-10 point life swing, and once you play it they will often avoid attacking with big creatures when they are really low for fear of losing to it, buying you time to draw more burn.
I strongly disagree with soul of shandalar. For one, Charm can take care of it no problem, and the burn isn't worth 11 mana over two turns if they Downfall it. It is marginal card advantage and huge tempo loss that you cannot afford. Also, with no ramp I don't think the deck has the mana to run it effectively. I think the five drops are as high as we can go (and Ashcloud). With Sarkhan and Stormbreath, I think that's all we need
LSV added 3 Nullify, to stop siege rhino, and Hushwing to prevent the cip ability.
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
4 Jeskai Charm
3 Stoke the Flames
3 Dig Through Time
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Hushwing Gryff
4 Mantis Rider
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mana Confluence
4 Mystic Monastery
2 Plains
4 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Temple of Epiphany
1 Reprisal
4 Suspension Field
1 Banishing Light
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
1 Nullify
2 Magma Spray
/edit fixed spelling errors.
Further changes i would make, if i was to play this. i'd drop the 2 phoenix's, for an additional Sarkhan, and a 4th Dig through time.
-2 Ashcloud Phoenix
+1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
+1 Dig Through Time
For me the key to beating Abzan is just getting big flyers out which prevent them being able to stick planeswalkers. The burn spells just feel woefully inadequate when you want to burn a walker and they all tick straight to 5.
I won my difficult Abzan matchup last night in 3 games, solely on the shoulders of turn 3 rabblemasters.
Siege Rhino is terrifying, there is no doubt about that whatsoever. He's scarier with Sorin. 5 Power kills both Chandra and Sarkhan, and shifts life by 10. That's crippling. We really can't do anything to stop that once its resolved.
The key is speeding up their clock so that when Siege Rhino hits, they're within burn range still. We can't Out-Midrange Abzan Midrange. It CANNOT be done. There are many who have tried to build this deck with a transformational element that would allow it to play a long-game strategy.
But our deck wins by getting "in there" fast and hard enough that when Abzan tries to turn the corner, they're already near lethal. Hushwing Gryff helps with that. It's a reverse lightning helix that attacks for 2 when Siege Rhino hits. Oh, it also has the effect of making Wingmate Roc inferior to Serra Angel.
Against Abzan, should you win game 1, leave all your speed in the deck, Take out your Dig Through Times, and put in your Hushwing Gryffs. Take your your Sarkhans, and put in your Stormbreaths. Congratulations, they didn't expect it and you're odds of winning game 2 are closer to 50%.
Standard: Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Wins, Naya Walkers, Boss Sligh, Mono Black Aggro
Modern: RUG Scapeshift, Burn, UG Infect
Legacy: Death n Taxes, Burn, Tendrils
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Krenko, Mob Boss, Narset, Enlightened Master
The problem is Rhino into Rhino, or Rhino into Roc.
Or worse. Rhino into Sorin.
Or even worse. Turn 3 Rhino into Turn 4 Sorin into turn 5 Roc.
*shuddder*
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx
T3 Rhino, T4 Sorin, T5 Elspeth
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
But I think the best answer to Abzhan is strokes.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
It's like trying to play burn against a life total of 30 when you play Abzan decks. What do you do?
I was able to get the upper hand in a game 3 the other day by playing Prognostic Sphinx and Hushwing Gryff but the round timed out before I could make anything like a good dent in his life total. Sorin and Siege Rhino just having a party against me.