So as you can tell by the title I am sick of seeing those control decks among others at the top tables. Watch SCG Seattle and every feature match has one of if not a 2 control decks. To me this is boring. So lets brainstorm and see if we can't put something together that thumps their skull and also goes well against GR Monsters and Mono Black control. I know at my LGS the field is 80% all the time. Whats yours look like? He is a bit of brainstorm as to something fast, gets around things like Supreme Verdict and D Sphere(at least for 1 turn) with enough disruption for GR and Mono Black. I am participating in my first Grand Prix in Cincinnati in a week and will be trying to narrow down what I will be playing.
Its an idea. Every creature minus the Zombie has haste and beats when it comes in.
Here is another idea in the form of Mono Black Aggro which I have piloted to a 10-2-2 record over 3 tournaments changing a couple cards here and there.
I have played this in various iterations. I dropped the Cackler and Hero to 3 each and dropped in 2 Desecration Demons which worked to an extent. When I saw them and played them I rode them to the win. I would honestly like to fit 4 Duress into the main because I feel the format as it is could support such a change and it makes the control matchups better game 1.
What are your thoughts? Other than the control players that will bash me for such comments. What do you do vs control? Anyone else going to GP Cincinnati and if so what are you sleeving up?
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To answer your question: No
And yes I would like to Brainstorm but sadly the card is not legal in Standard.
I you want good control matchups play Maze's End. You will probably lose against everything else though.
To be honest Im not a fan of brews. Just pick one of the top decks that you like, tune it and play with it a ton and you will be successful with it. Not saying that you cant try and be succesful with your own brews but there is a reason certain decks are at the top.
My FNM has someone playing mono-green aggro that seems to be repeatedly smashing longtime control players. I don't know how their list works, but control players have been cursing it. (I think it's something ridiculous like maindeck skylasher combined with aspect of hydra and similar. I heard it can do 16 damage in 1 turn pre-verdict.)
If you're sick of it now prepare to be even more sick of it going into next week, Esper just won the Open/GP for the weekend and was heralded going into this as "the best deck in the format". Plus even Brad Nelson played it. Come to think of it, the finals of both events were freakin' Esper mirror.
I have a cute idea that I wish I could try out; an Esper deck with a sideboard of 4 Sin Collector and 2 Council of the Absolute. If you're playing mirrors all day, may as well come prepared. As a bonus both of these cards seem strong against RW Burn. Not "strong" per say, but less dead than D. Sphere and its ilk. Sin Collector is the worst Centaur Healer ever (rips 3-4 damage from their hand, trades with Mutavault or Firedrinker or chumps an Ash Zealot), and Council brickwalls their Mutavaults/Ash Zealots (care for first strike + burn, unless you're okay with that sort of thing) while naming either Rev or Skullcrack. Verdict is so bad in that matchup that having creatures in is no real issue, and both seem dirty in the mirror. Thoughtseize -> Sin Collector -> Council (take their counters, then lock them out of Sphere for 2/X beats or Rev if they don't have it, or even lock them out of Jace then drop your own Jace for UU next turn) is big game.
Unfortunately don't have the card pool to build Esper so I can't test it. Also wondering if Ashiok could make a resurgence, perhaps alongside a single Jace MA (maindeck) in some rogue Esper list slightly pre-configured for the mirror. Something like 3 Ashiok 3 Jace AoT 1 Jace MA 2 Elspeth for 'walkers, and the usual 4 Verdict 4 Sphere 4 Rev package (likely with a slight decrease in permission to make room).
1) Regen/Indestructability or some way to save your guy from Supreme Verdict.
2) Some way to kill Planeswalkers
3) MUTAVAULTS!!
4) Hand destruction or just having a look. Lifebane is good because he just lets you have a peek. Usually enough to win games right there.
5) Answers to their answers. Detention Sphere is a killer. If you have an answer to it, you win.
Control can be beat with any deck. Don't overextend and realize some games they just lose to 'no verdict'. The first Revaliation isn't game over, but usually the 2nd and 3rd ones are (usually, but not always).
It is also one of the most consistently easy decks to beat. They can't luck you out. They're too slow to get any free bad land wins off you and if you think they always have the answer then you have not played control yourself. To understand decks like this YOU have to play with them. Then you realize how fragile they really are.
I would love to play vs 10 Control decks in a row. You can pretty much set your winning %. I hate playing against monsters because of how random the deck is. Sometimes they draw their dorks and die. Sometimes just their PW's and they die, and sometimes they get this nutty draw that loses to nothing.
I prefer just running 8 Thoughtseize 8 Duress and 8 Pack Rat.
Problem solved.
On a more serious note, don't listen to SaintA he has no idea what he is talking about. Playing something that makes interaction on their end difficult is your best way to win that match.
Any deck will get a free win if their opponent has a bad land situation and Control can certainly out luck you ir only matters if they have enough land when they do.
Control is not fragile and GR Monsters is not random.
Both decks, while always present, are more a product of the current meta. With GR Monsters/Jund gaining popularity the amount of control decks will increase as well since they usually have an advantage against those type of midrange decks. If you are in a more control heavy meta you could try meta calling and go with a fast aggro deck to get in under their counters/removal. Present more threats than they have answers. Or go with something like Naya Hexproof that dodges their removal, just be sure you have ways to help them survive a wrath. Hand disruption also can help you gain an advantage by removing their answers before they can use them against you. UW/Esper's best too, imo, is Sphinx's Revelation. If you can neutralize that those decks can easily falter.
Tried Mono B aggro build before, but after some games, I figure that Thoughtseize doesn't fit in aggressive strategies. I'll remove it from your build if I were you. This might seem contradictory because Thoughtseize is like the present meta Thragtusk, but the loss of life is detrimental to aggro and its biggest flaw is it doesn't remove permanents.
Since you are thinking of splashing red, you might want to consider Boros. Even though the combo already won some high profile tourneys, it is still underrated. Aside from being fast, it also has ways of dealing with UW and Esper's ace cards.
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Going back to Europe Tonight. will say goodbye to you all.
I cut a land and added a 3rd Righteous Charge (gonna side 4th, its basically a rly good 3mana Overrun). New set gives this deck even more tool (another 2/1 one mana and tricks). I built this deck for 6 tixs on MTGO; 3 Temples, no Godless Shrines.
I will never be tired of control personally. Something satisfying about your opponent scooping before you even have a win condition because they want some round time to have a shot against you in game 2 and possibly 3. The best advice I offer to someone who hates control is to play another format if the standard meta isn't going your way. I've played against a MBD at least one round of FNM for the past 5 months. I understand being frustrated and annoyed by a deck.
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"Why can't I hold all these answers?"
Sig by Ace5301
Yeah, control and Mono Black fall easily to GW aggro. GW aggro has a so-so matchup with GR MOnsters and any other mid-range deck. Paper rock scissors, but if you want to hose control, look @ the GW thread and make a list.
Esper/UW isn't rampant in my local meta, but it is incredibly depressing, seeing those three players in the top 4 every week at FNM. This is the "stock" list they bring, as best as I'm able to deduce.
I have tried almost everything under the sun and the best I can do is get them to 4 or 5 life before they instantly stabilize with S rev, drop an aetherling, and win from there.
How do you stop something like this?
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Hey just think when they reprint wrath of god you'll have 6 maindecked sweepers to contend with plus two more out've the board for another five months. Wizards cant stop feeding you ppl. I'll give them that.
Esper seems like the best deck year after year. The ability to counter spells as they are cast (blue), remove spells once resolved (black), then throw in white for tricks like flying and lifegain. That's a hard recipe to ignore.
I've never played Esper but may want to pursue it after rotation. I feel like I rarely beat it in a round. And if you can't beat them maybe it's time to join them?
No blue decks in the top8 of this weekend's SCG Open
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Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming. Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Esper seems like the best deck year after year. The ability to counter spells as they are cast (blue), remove spells once resolved (black), then throw in white for tricks like flying and lifegain. That's a hard recipe to ignore.
I've never played Esper but may want to pursue it after rotation. I feel like I rarely beat it in a round. And if you can't beat them maybe it's time to join them?
I don't think esper survives rotation without some major assistance. The combination sphinx's revelation's pure advantage, aetherling's inevitability and incredible strength as a finisher, and jace's dig means that they're never without an answer for anything you throw on the board. They lose all of those cards at rotation, plus detention sphere, supreme verdict, and mutavault. In 4 months this deck will be dead, but until then I'm not sure how it's possible to beat consistantly.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Esper seems like the best deck year after year. The ability to counter spells as they are cast (blue), remove spells once resolved (black), then throw in white for tricks like flying and lifegain. That's a hard recipe to ignore.
I've never played Esper but may want to pursue it after rotation. I feel like I rarely beat it in a round. And if you can't beat them maybe it's time to join them?
I don't think esper survives rotation without some major assistance. The combination sphinx's revelation's pure advantage, aetherling's inevitability and incredible strength as a finisher, and jace's dig means that they're never without an answer for anything you throw on the board. They lose all of those cards at rotation, plus detention sphere, supreme verdict, and mutavault. In 4 months this deck will be dead, but until then I'm not sure how it's possible to beat consistantly.
I agree that given what we know today the deck is dead. But Wizards seems to always keep certain staples alive in standard. Seems like there will be another board wipe, I'm not sure what will replace Sphinx's Rev but hopefully it's not too powerful this time, etc. There will be another really good creature somewhere in the UWB spectrum, etc.
I agree that given what we know today the deck is dead. But Wizards seems to always keep certain staples alive in standard. Seems like there will be another board wipe, I'm not sure what will replace Sphinx's Rev but hopefully it's not too powerful this time, etc. There will be another really good creature somewhere in the UWB spectrum, etc.
Of course they will, because the alternative is a format full of decks that just race each other to get bigger creatures faster. They've already taken away combo and land destruction from the available deck archetypes, and they refuse to make mill viable despite wasting card slots on mill cards. There's not much else to take out.
And really, this is all a massive overreaction. Look at the results on tcgplayer, for example. Let's take the latest MTGO 4-0. You have only 3 decks out that entire list that are UW or Esper control. Is that really too much? Starcity Invitational Columbus: 2 of the 9 decks listed, none of which were top 4. Starcity Open Standard Columbus: 2 out of the top 16, again neither of them were in the top 4 (or even the top 8 for that matter). Sure, there have been a couple instances where the deck experienced a surge, but it's never lasted long, and it's a far cry from the continued success of monoblack devotion.
Esper seems like the best deck year after year. The ability to counter spells as they are cast (blue), remove spells once resolved (black), then throw in white for tricks like flying and lifegain. That's a hard recipe to ignore.
I've never played Esper but may want to pursue it after rotation. I feel like I rarely beat it in a round. And if you can't beat them maybe it's time to join them?
I'm sick of playing against a boring deck. My two current decks though, can take on Control very efficiently.
I believe after rotation Control's going to be really shaky and become a nonissue. My personal opinion especially with the rotation of everything in Rav and M14.
Everyone seems to think that Control is going somewhere when RtR rotates. You fella's do realize that control has always been a thing, right? And that it will always be, right? There are other control shells that put out results than the UW/x shell that's been used the past 2 years. The only thing that makes it complicated right at the start of a new season is that a meta hasn't been formed, and without that information control loses effectiveness. Control will still sit at the top of the tables the first week of Khans, and will see more and more play as the season goes on as the control player gets more tools and a more solidified meta develops. Just. Like. Every. Season. Ever.
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MTGO Username: jdinflames
Standard: UR Control
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3x Ash Zealot
4x Chandras Pheonix
4x Spike Jester
3x Exava
3x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Magma Jet
4x Lightning Strike
2x Shock
3x Heros Downfall
3x Dreadbore
2x Mutavault
4x Blood Crypt
4x Temple of Malice
7x Mountain
6x Swamps
Its an idea. Every creature minus the Zombie has haste and beats when it comes in.
Here is another idea in the form of Mono Black Aggro which I have piloted to a 10-2-2 record over 3 tournaments changing a couple cards here and there.
3x Mogis Marauder
4x Pack Rat
4x Pain Seer
3x Rakdos Cackler
4x Tormented Hero
4x Herald of Torment
2x Ultimate Price
2x Bile Blight
4x Heros Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
4x Mutavault
18x Swamp
I have played this in various iterations. I dropped the Cackler and Hero to 3 each and dropped in 2 Desecration Demons which worked to an extent. When I saw them and played them I rode them to the win. I would honestly like to fit 4 Duress into the main because I feel the format as it is could support such a change and it makes the control matchups better game 1.
What are your thoughts? Other than the control players that will bash me for such comments. What do you do vs control? Anyone else going to GP Cincinnati and if so what are you sleeving up?
Mod Edit: In the future, please use decktags when displaying your deck. For more information on how to do so, go here.
Otherwise just play Maze's End and win by playing land and letting them draw go.
And yes I would like to Brainstorm but sadly the card is not legal in Standard.
I you want good control matchups play Maze's End. You will probably lose against everything else though.
To be honest Im not a fan of brews. Just pick one of the top decks that you like, tune it and play with it a ton and you will be successful with it. Not saying that you cant try and be succesful with your own brews but there is a reason certain decks are at the top.
Standard: Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Wins, Naya Walkers, Boss Sligh, Mono Black Aggro
Modern: RUG Scapeshift, Burn, UG Infect
Legacy: Death n Taxes, Burn, Tendrils
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Krenko, Mob Boss, Narset, Enlightened Master
I have a cute idea that I wish I could try out; an Esper deck with a sideboard of 4 Sin Collector and 2 Council of the Absolute. If you're playing mirrors all day, may as well come prepared. As a bonus both of these cards seem strong against RW Burn. Not "strong" per say, but less dead than D. Sphere and its ilk. Sin Collector is the worst Centaur Healer ever (rips 3-4 damage from their hand, trades with Mutavault or Firedrinker or chumps an Ash Zealot), and Council brickwalls their Mutavaults/Ash Zealots (care for first strike + burn, unless you're okay with that sort of thing) while naming either Rev or Skullcrack. Verdict is so bad in that matchup that having creatures in is no real issue, and both seem dirty in the mirror. Thoughtseize -> Sin Collector -> Council (take their counters, then lock them out of Sphere for 2/X beats or Rev if they don't have it, or even lock them out of Jace then drop your own Jace for UU next turn) is big game.
Unfortunately don't have the card pool to build Esper so I can't test it. Also wondering if Ashiok could make a resurgence, perhaps alongside a single Jace MA (maindeck) in some rogue Esper list slightly pre-configured for the mirror. Something like 3 Ashiok 3 Jace AoT 1 Jace MA 2 Elspeth for 'walkers, and the usual 4 Verdict 4 Sphere 4 Rev package (likely with a slight decrease in permission to make room).
2) Some way to kill Planeswalkers
3) MUTAVAULTS!!
4) Hand destruction or just having a look. Lifebane is good because he just lets you have a peek. Usually enough to win games right there.
5) Answers to their answers. Detention Sphere is a killer. If you have an answer to it, you win.
Control can be beat with any deck. Don't overextend and realize some games they just lose to 'no verdict'. The first Revaliation isn't game over, but usually the 2nd and 3rd ones are (usually, but not always).
It is also one of the most consistently easy decks to beat. They can't luck you out. They're too slow to get any free bad land wins off you and if you think they always have the answer then you have not played control yourself. To understand decks like this YOU have to play with them. Then you realize how fragile they really are.
I would love to play vs 10 Control decks in a row. You can pretty much set your winning %. I hate playing against monsters because of how random the deck is. Sometimes they draw their dorks and die. Sometimes just their PW's and they die, and sometimes they get this nutty draw that loses to nothing.
Problem solved.
On a more serious note, don't listen to SaintA he has no idea what he is talking about. Playing something that makes interaction on their end difficult is your best way to win that match.
Any deck will get a free win if their opponent has a bad land situation and Control can certainly out luck you ir only matters if they have enough land when they do.
Control is not fragile and GR Monsters is not random.
Her Shop on Etsy
THS-KTK: Rabble Red
RTR-THS: Dega Midrange
INN-RTR: Boros Humans
SOM-INN: B/u Control
Modern: Mono-Black Infect
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
Since you are thinking of splashing red, you might want to consider Boros. Even though the combo already won some high profile tourneys, it is still underrated. Aside from being fast, it also has ways of dealing with UW and Esper's ace cards.
4x Loyal Pegasus
4x Boros Elite
4x Dryad Militant
2x Judge's Familiar
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Tormented Hero
2x Righteous Charge
4x Orzhov Charm
2x Doom Blade
4x Immortal Servitude
4x Temple of Silence
8x Plains
4x Swamp
I cut a land and added a 3rd Righteous Charge (gonna side 4th, its basically a rly good 3mana Overrun). New set gives this deck even more tool (another 2/1 one mana and tricks). I built this deck for 6 tixs on MTGO; 3 Temples, no Godless Shrines.
"Why can't I hold all these answers?"
Sig by Ace5301
3 Mutavault
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Watery Grave
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Godless Shrine
2 Temple of Silence
3 Island
Creatures (4)
1 Ætherling
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Detention Sphere
4 Dissolve
2 Devour Flesh
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
1 Elixir of Immortality
3 Syncopate
2 Devour Flesh
3 Essence Scatter
2 Sin Collector
3 Banishing Light
2 Blind Obedience
I have tried almost everything under the sun and the best I can do is get them to 4 or 5 life before they instantly stabilize with S rev, drop an aetherling, and win from there.
How do you stop something like this?
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
I've never played Esper but may want to pursue it after rotation. I feel like I rarely beat it in a round. And if you can't beat them maybe it's time to join them?
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming.
Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Originally posted by MemoryLapse and DotMatrix
I don't think esper survives rotation without some major assistance. The combination sphinx's revelation's pure advantage, aetherling's inevitability and incredible strength as a finisher, and jace's dig means that they're never without an answer for anything you throw on the board. They lose all of those cards at rotation, plus detention sphere, supreme verdict, and mutavault. In 4 months this deck will be dead, but until then I'm not sure how it's possible to beat consistantly.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
I agree that given what we know today the deck is dead. But Wizards seems to always keep certain staples alive in standard. Seems like there will be another board wipe, I'm not sure what will replace Sphinx's Rev but hopefully it's not too powerful this time, etc. There will be another really good creature somewhere in the UWB spectrum, etc.
Of course they will, because the alternative is a format full of decks that just race each other to get bigger creatures faster. They've already taken away combo and land destruction from the available deck archetypes, and they refuse to make mill viable despite wasting card slots on mill cards. There's not much else to take out.
And really, this is all a massive overreaction. Look at the results on tcgplayer, for example. Let's take the latest MTGO 4-0. You have only 3 decks out that entire list that are UW or Esper control. Is that really too much? Starcity Invitational Columbus: 2 of the 9 decks listed, none of which were top 4. Starcity Open Standard Columbus: 2 out of the top 16, again neither of them were in the top 4 (or even the top 8 for that matter). Sure, there have been a couple instances where the deck experienced a surge, but it's never lasted long, and it's a far cry from the continued success of monoblack devotion.
I'm sick of playing against a boring deck. My two current decks though, can take on Control very efficiently.
I believe after rotation Control's going to be really shaky and become a nonissue. My personal opinion especially with the rotation of everything in Rav and M14.
Standard:
UR Control