So locally there's a small shop that's got a (fairly) casual playerbase, and the owner holds $5 standard 3 nights a week (m/w/FNM) with an OK-ish prize pool. It's basically free packs for me with the overall skill level of the players at the shop, so I've taken to using it as a concept check for deck ideas. To deal with problems at the regular LGS I play at for competitive events, I've been testing a UW list that runs next to no nonland permanents:
Obviously, I'm still on the elixir/chain sphinx's revs plan, but I chose the high-impact singletons route for it, with more game 1 flexibility, and it's an absolute house in the more competitive metagame in the area. However, at this smaller shop I'm playing at on the other nights of the week, while I win most rounds 1/0/0 or 1/0/1, there's one player who is a particularly inept pilot, but he's playing the selesnya "all the control hate" deck. 4 voice of resurgence, lions, advent of the wurm, etc. I've played there four times, met him in the finals all four times, and I've been unable to take a game off of him yet despite his terrible play ability. He has in the same pair of games failed to regenerate experiment one through a quickened planar cleansing when he could easily have done so, overextended recklessly onto the board the turn AFTER I sphinx's rev for 5, and keept one-landers with nothing but three and four-drops. I'm curious if anyone has ideas for a solid post-board plan for beating a fairly stock selesnya aggro with UW if I'm willing to dedicate 10 sideboard slots to it for these midweek standard events?
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
So locally there's a small shop that's got a (fairly) casual playerbase, and the owner holds $5 standard 3 nights a week (m/w/FNM) with an OK-ish prize pool. It's basically free packs for me with the overall skill level of the players at the shop, so I've taken to using it as a concept check for deck ideas. To deal with problems at the regular LGS I play at for competitive events, I've been testing a UW list that runs next to no nonland permanents:
Obviously, I'm still on the elixir/chain sphinx's revs plan, but I chose the high-impact singletons route for it, with more game 1 flexibility, and it's an absolute house in the more competitive metagame in the area. However, at this smaller shop I'm playing at on the other nights of the week, while I win most rounds 1/0/0 or 1/0/1, there's one player who is a particularly inept pilot, but he's playing the selesnya "all the control hate" deck. 4 voice of resurgence, lions, advent of the wurm, etc. I've played there four times, met him in the finals all four times, and I've been unable to take a game off of him yet despite his terrible play ability. He has in the same pair of games failed to regenerate experiment one through a quickened planar cleansing when he could easily have done so, overextended recklessly onto the board the turn AFTER I sphinx's rev for 5, and keept one-landers with nothing but three and four-drops. I'm curious if anyone has ideas for a solid post-board plan for beating a fairly stock selesnya aggro with UW if I'm willing to dedicate 10 sideboard slots to it for these midweek standard events?
my intentional design space for this list is almost no on-board permanents. I have the jaces, but I've cut them for this store for two reasons: one, I'm checking whether uncovered clues in a spell-based build is better than divination by a large enough margin to make it worth running multiples, and two because of the playerbase at this store, a planeswalker won't ever net me more than one activation unless I've already got them at zero cards and a full grip myself. Anyway, jace is particularly bad against selesnya aggro, and I specifically am looking for suggestions in the sideboard material department to beat selesnya aggro. Last breath doesn't hit half of their creatures, it's easily the one of the worst cards in the deck against selesnya aggro. Syncopate is good as a tempo counter, but in a matchup where the only relevant threats in the tempo play slot are creatures, I'd rather board in the extra essence scatter and negate for late game efficiency. Sphinx's revelation as a 4 of vs as a 3 of is a preference, most people on the elixir plan run three because the endgame is to chain really, really big ones and shuffle back with elixir, while people on the saito list run four because they're looking to slam a threat to win with and you need to draw one quickly since you're not running elixir.
My problem is selesnya aggro: I'm looking for sideboard suggestions. Not a rebuilding of my mainboard.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I've considered it, but I'm already running 3x planar cleansing main/1 sideboard, and the only benefit in this matchup is to dodge the "make creatures indestructible/populate" spell, while losing to bestowed boon satyr. I don't think going up to more than 8 boardwipes could ever be correct, and while merciless would probably make sense in a planeswalker/dsphere build, I think the planar cleansings are better here since they prevent getting blown out by boon satyr at least. I've been looking at cyclonic rift and far//away, since both of those turn into actual 1 for 1's against token producing spells and I have the potential 2 for 1 off the away portion. Other than that, I'm just praying for a deathmark reprint in m15 since of all the standard UW noncreatures, there doesn't appear to be a solid answer for selesnya specifically. Oh for the days of hallowed burial and/or terminus.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I assume this guy is playing Loxodon Smiter, because Last Breath is the absolute best card against Selesnya. I say that as a Selesnya pilot, mind you, not a control pilot. Azorious Charm kills Wurm and buys you time against said Smiter. Jace is great and so is D. Sphere. If you cast Jace & Verdict and are above 10 life, you'll probably win.
It may sound silly but as a sometime selesnya and UW Control player, I found Yoked Ox to be annoying to play against. It can buy you time so you are using your good removal on the mid-game stuff that hurts; rather than the early turn riff-raff. Get two of these guys down early and you are going to encourage him to overextend into your wraths. However, with your maindeck with no Jace or Detention Spheres, this puts a lot of pressure on your removal suite while waiting for the mana required to get Planar Cleansing online if Verdict doesn't show. Your deck needs to be able to stall. As mentioned above, Aetherize is effective if he's playing a lot of tokens (Call of the Conclave, Advent of the Wurm) while Azorius Charm is also good for a round's breathing space. The truth of the matter is though that his Selesnya deck is most likely a stronger, more consistent deck than your UW Control build. It's going to consistently get a sequence of cards that is hard for your deck to deal with. Best of luck with it anyway.
If you actually read the wall of text, this is a very small and not-very-competitive local event, I use it to bring ideas/brews. Believe me, I wouldn't take this list were I to drive up to the star city games center for an FNM, this is what I'm playing at the moment for this small-ish midweek event. And yes, the selesnya player is running boon satyrs and smiters at cmc3, voices/lion's/call the conclave at 2, and the wurm making spell at 4. I hadn't considered going back to azorius charms, that's something I'll have to tinker with; that might give me a good enough game one I can stick with the "game one chain sphinxes for 45 minutes to a few hundred life" plan.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I'm really confused...who said last breath is an awesome card versus selesnya. While it does hit voice which turn off your counterspells, you have to use it on YOUR turn meaning you won't be countering anyways. Only other card it generally hits in their deck is Soldier of the Pantheon. Truth is, from playing both, I don't think there is really a way to sideboard to give you an edge in post-sideboard games. Maybe you can take game 1, but after sideboard Selesnya just decimates UW control. Mistcutter Hydra + Rootborn Defenses + Revoke Existence/Glare of Heresy + Last Breath.
How are you losing when he is keeping unplayable hands? Charm is very good against tokens, Celestial Flare is very good against Fleecemane Lion, Renounce the Guilds is very good, Glare of Heresy is really good.Uncovered Clues is basically worse than Divination. You want to hit land drops and by playing that card not only are you willing to miss the ability to draw 2 you are completely sacrificing the ability to draw lands.
If you are running black lands, run far//away in the side, PERIOD. In my opinion, the biggest issue for azorius post-board against selesnya is that it has SOOOO many issues, meaning if possible, you really don't want to use the wrong answer for each threat or you will just flat run out:
-Experiement One: Selesnya will side in D-sphere hate, and he gets around verdict...
-Answer: Azorius Charm to get those tokens off and make your verdict more likely
-Solider of the Pantheon: Pro-charm, Pro-D-sphere, and you can last breath, but there is one target you really want to save that for...
-Answer: Mutavault. Totally worth losing a vault, and even better if you can Jace beforehand meaning he either won't attack or will lose him and you keep mutavault.
-Voice of Resurgence: We all know what this guy does...
-Answer: Pretty obviously last breath, but the other solid option is Mutavault -> Azorius charm for the token
-Fleecemane Lion: If you answer him before turn 3, you are killing a vanilla 3/3. If you wait, no real answer.
-Answer: Flare or, nice trick is Jace + Last Breath before monstrous. Honestly, some may disagree, but without those this guy is almost worth verdict by himself before turn 5.
-Brimaz: Board can get out of hand very quickly.
-Answer: Jace + Last Breath trick, but really verdict blows this card out for investment. You should have had counter up anyways so thats on you.
-Boon Satyr: If you have to verdict without keeping counter up and they have 3 mana up, be ready for this guy.
-Answer: If they actually bestow this guy, good luck unless you already Rev'd. Otherwise, if you verdict with 6 mana, that leaves enough for mutavault block.
-Advent: 5/5 creature, with trample being pretty irrelevant that comes down after verdict.
-Answer: Azorius Charm, period...
-God's Willing: Turns off Charm/D-sphere/Doom Blade
-Answer: Honestly, aside from spell + negate/dispel up, you don't have one. If they have one white up, you should be thinking about God's Willing
-Rootborn Defenses: Leads to absolute blowouts, since they are ONLY going to use this for verdict unless they can present lethal or have game clearly in hand.
-Answer: If you verdict w/o counter mana up and they have 3 mana, you better be using it as a last resort. If they rootborn in response to verdict with no counter, you WILL lose.
-Mistcutter Hydra: Potentially, your worst nightmare. Mistcutter plays around counter, and also OWNS after verdict.
-If you use verdict, know this guy can be crippling after. Drawing him out of your opponent's hand pre-verdict is great. Otherwise DOOM BLADE.
Truthfully, a good selesnya player will dominate. They won't overextend. They know that with just a turn 1 and turn 2 play they are putting you on quite a clock. If they overextend the board, it generally means they have rootborn, which means you can't verdict until turn 5/6, and thats IF you hit all your land drops and the last land isn't a temple (which it shouldn't be in azorius). If you do verdict without counter and he has 4 mana up, you can expect advent/boon satyr to get in for 5 or 4. Also, a smart guy will use mistcutter as the "Deal 5 damage to target player" that it should be. Although, you did say this guy misplays, so there is that.
Now, with you already running black lands in your deck and if this guy really is the thorn in your side, you should REALLY consider switching to Esper control. While it may seem like all the shocking is bad against an aggro deck, that deck has a much easier time stabilizing than azorius. Thoughtseize, doom blade, devour flesh, hero's downfall, ultimate price...all GREAT cards versus selesnya. For selesnya, instant speed removal essentially is the same as counter magic and then you can use your counters to protect D-sphere or answer rootborn. Also, again, Far//Away is already a great card, but it just DESTROYS selesnya. You have already removed threats, so when you return that voice token to hand and make them sacrifice a monstrous fleecemane, you will feel sooooo good. Finally, as good as Aetherling is, he doesn't help you when you are near death and they have multiple creatures or Mistcutter. Blood Baron of Vizkopa on the other hand does EVERYTHING you want. It blocks everything but Soldier, a 4/4 experiment one, Advent token, or Boon Satyr extremely well, and also just lets you swing away unless they have unflinching courage up. And again, especially with more shocks, thoughtseize may seem expensive with the 2 life, but you are saving yourself life against selesnya when compared to a 4/4 uncounterable pro-blue hydra, 5/5 flash trampler, or 4/2 flash enchant creature.
If you must stick with Azorius, Run essence scatter, more last breath, and dispel in the side. Dissolve is crap against them, you don't want 3 mana up for that spell. Essence scatter = removal, and all of their non-creature spells are instant, so dispel lets you verdict a turn sooner.
Played a token version of the G/W Aggro deck (Call of Conclave/Rootborn instead of Fleecemane and God's Willing). Can confirm that the matchup is extremely easy against u/w. I can just play 3 creatures and hold up rootborn for the rest of the game. The hardest cards for g/w to deal with are Jace and Elspeth. If you can get those cards on an empty board, you just win the game. So your goal the entire game should be to play those cards and protect it as soon as possible. Always +1 jace. Always always always. If they attack jace instead of you, you just gained huge value. Follow it up with a dissolve on their next big threat or go for an early sphinx for 2-3.
If the G/W overextends and doesn't leave mana for rootborn, then immediately use supreme verdict, even if it means killing a voice and a regenerating experiment one. You need to slow the game down.
Anyway, as long as you have lots of last breath's you should be fine.
3 Temple of Deceit
3 Temple of Silence
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Mutavault
5 Island
4 Plains
4 dissolve
4 quicken
3 divination
1 uncovered clues
3 planar cleansing
1 essence scatter
1 1 revoke existence
1 syncopate
3 last breath
2 celestial flare
1 negate
3 sphinx's revelation
1 Aetherling
1 Elixir of Immortality
Obviously, I'm still on the elixir/chain sphinx's revs plan, but I chose the high-impact singletons route for it, with more game 1 flexibility, and it's an absolute house in the more competitive metagame in the area. However, at this smaller shop I'm playing at on the other nights of the week, while I win most rounds 1/0/0 or 1/0/1, there's one player who is a particularly inept pilot, but he's playing the selesnya "all the control hate" deck. 4 voice of resurgence, lions, advent of the wurm, etc. I've played there four times, met him in the finals all four times, and I've been unable to take a game off of him yet despite his terrible play ability. He has in the same pair of games failed to regenerate experiment one through a quickened planar cleansing when he could easily have done so, overextended recklessly onto the board the turn AFTER I sphinx's rev for 5, and keept one-landers with nothing but three and four-drops. I'm curious if anyone has ideas for a solid post-board plan for beating a fairly stock selesnya aggro with UW if I'm willing to dedicate 10 sideboard slots to it for these midweek standard events?
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Well, I'm no pro at control but...
-1 Revoke
-2 Celestial Flare
-1 Negate
-3 Planar Cleansing
+1 Essence scatter
+1 Last Breath
+1 Sypnocate
+3 Jace, Architect of Thought
+1 Sphinx of Revelation
Modern:
BR Control
Grixis Bloo
EDH:
Food Chain Prossh
Land Wipe Maelstrom Wanderer
Selvala, Hearth of the Wilds Eldrazi
My problem is selesnya aggro: I'm looking for sideboard suggestions. Not a rebuilding of my mainboard.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Best Regards
Anrait_Esor
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
-Experiement One: Selesnya will side in D-sphere hate, and he gets around verdict...
-Answer: Azorius Charm to get those tokens off and make your verdict more likely
-Solider of the Pantheon: Pro-charm, Pro-D-sphere, and you can last breath, but there is one target you really want to save that for...
-Answer: Mutavault. Totally worth losing a vault, and even better if you can Jace beforehand meaning he either won't attack or will lose him and you keep mutavault.
-Voice of Resurgence: We all know what this guy does...
-Answer: Pretty obviously last breath, but the other solid option is Mutavault -> Azorius charm for the token
-Fleecemane Lion: If you answer him before turn 3, you are killing a vanilla 3/3. If you wait, no real answer.
-Answer: Flare or, nice trick is Jace + Last Breath before monstrous. Honestly, some may disagree, but without those this guy is almost worth verdict by himself before turn 5.
-Brimaz: Board can get out of hand very quickly.
-Answer: Jace + Last Breath trick, but really verdict blows this card out for investment. You should have had counter up anyways so thats on you.
-Boon Satyr: If you have to verdict without keeping counter up and they have 3 mana up, be ready for this guy.
-Answer: If they actually bestow this guy, good luck unless you already Rev'd. Otherwise, if you verdict with 6 mana, that leaves enough for mutavault block.
-Advent: 5/5 creature, with trample being pretty irrelevant that comes down after verdict.
-Answer: Azorius Charm, period...
-God's Willing: Turns off Charm/D-sphere/Doom Blade
-Answer: Honestly, aside from spell + negate/dispel up, you don't have one. If they have one white up, you should be thinking about God's Willing
-Rootborn Defenses: Leads to absolute blowouts, since they are ONLY going to use this for verdict unless they can present lethal or have game clearly in hand.
-Answer: If you verdict w/o counter mana up and they have 3 mana, you better be using it as a last resort. If they rootborn in response to verdict with no counter, you WILL lose.
-Mistcutter Hydra: Potentially, your worst nightmare. Mistcutter plays around counter, and also OWNS after verdict.
-If you use verdict, know this guy can be crippling after. Drawing him out of your opponent's hand pre-verdict is great. Otherwise DOOM BLADE.
Truthfully, a good selesnya player will dominate. They won't overextend. They know that with just a turn 1 and turn 2 play they are putting you on quite a clock. If they overextend the board, it generally means they have rootborn, which means you can't verdict until turn 5/6, and thats IF you hit all your land drops and the last land isn't a temple (which it shouldn't be in azorius). If you do verdict without counter and he has 4 mana up, you can expect advent/boon satyr to get in for 5 or 4. Also, a smart guy will use mistcutter as the "Deal 5 damage to target player" that it should be. Although, you did say this guy misplays, so there is that.
Now, with you already running black lands in your deck and if this guy really is the thorn in your side, you should REALLY consider switching to Esper control. While it may seem like all the shocking is bad against an aggro deck, that deck has a much easier time stabilizing than azorius. Thoughtseize, doom blade, devour flesh, hero's downfall, ultimate price...all GREAT cards versus selesnya. For selesnya, instant speed removal essentially is the same as counter magic and then you can use your counters to protect D-sphere or answer rootborn. Also, again, Far//Away is already a great card, but it just DESTROYS selesnya. You have already removed threats, so when you return that voice token to hand and make them sacrifice a monstrous fleecemane, you will feel sooooo good. Finally, as good as Aetherling is, he doesn't help you when you are near death and they have multiple creatures or Mistcutter. Blood Baron of Vizkopa on the other hand does EVERYTHING you want. It blocks everything but Soldier, a 4/4 experiment one, Advent token, or Boon Satyr extremely well, and also just lets you swing away unless they have unflinching courage up. And again, especially with more shocks, thoughtseize may seem expensive with the 2 life, but you are saving yourself life against selesnya when compared to a 4/4 uncounterable pro-blue hydra, 5/5 flash trampler, or 4/2 flash enchant creature.
If you must stick with Azorius, Run essence scatter, more last breath, and dispel in the side. Dissolve is crap against them, you don't want 3 mana up for that spell. Essence scatter = removal, and all of their non-creature spells are instant, so dispel lets you verdict a turn sooner.
If the G/W overextends and doesn't leave mana for rootborn, then immediately use supreme verdict, even if it means killing a voice and a regenerating experiment one. You need to slow the game down.
Anyway, as long as you have lots of last breath's you should be fine.