Having been a long time proponent on this card, I'd like to invite/start a discussion on why she's poised to make a comeback, and what shell she could be the trump in.
We already know Monoblack is "the" deck in standard ATM, blah blah blah. U/W control has already been strong on the control spectrum, and it looks like it's getting stronger in BNG.
It's certainly not out of the question to say this format is slow, and very midrange at the moment. The format is very hostile to zerg rushes. :> The Angel doesn't need Reanimator to be a powerful card. It doesn't need to be accelerated/ramped into either. The format is midrange right now, and to get (arguably) the best tempo/value out of slamming your angel, you want juicy targets from the opponent - if anything this goes against the nature of proactively ramping into something as fast as possible.
In a world like this, I believe Angel of Serenity is strongly positioned to attack both decks that like to play lots of removal. She is meant to fight through attrition battles, or even against opposing midrange creature decks, as well as any of the gods who make it to creature form. It's also worth noting that the popular black and Azorius decks right now lack many playable means to exile Angel of Serenity, save Detention Sphere. Black can also get lucky and Thoughtseize her, sure, but that doesn't permanently stop the potential problem for them of you resolving another copy. So, Angel potentially is hard for both decks to deal with, and very difficult to permanently deal with, while attacking both decks on an axis that spits in the face of card advantage - the chain of threat recursion. EDIT: I forgot to mention Lifebane Zombie. That still is more of a sideboard black card (currently), but should it be enough to effect positioning overall? That's for the meta to figure out eventually.
My first inclination is to try straight G/W, and/or Bant. Those are probably obvious, or safe picks, to assume she'll be the top curve for a heavy/midrange creature deck, but I'm wondering if there's any other ideas for quality homes for this card. Or, am I completely alone in thinking this card could trump the big bad two expected/continued boogeymen of the format?
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
If BWR can ever figure out some level of a stable manabase between the three colors, I could see this card making it in. It actually has reasons for wanting AOS to eat removal, and those reasons are probably the best you could have in a world where Removal seems to simply outclass creatures these days.
It should also be mentioned that you opponent can deny you getting creatures back from your graveyard. He just has to kill her with the trigger on the stack and you dont get anything out of it.
As much as I love 3-for-1s and Angelception loops, Galerion has a good point; removal is very abundant now. Addressing the point about the gods, certain gods which are favored have the spotlight because of their abilities, but aside from Mono-Blue and some versions of RW Devotion the gods are not vital to a deck's game plan. At least not in any current deck.
That being said, somehow packing AoS into a deck full of other potent threats might make her usable.
Not to mention the Cost for Serenity Angel... It's a 7 Drop. Nullify anyone? There are any
number of counter spells that stops her from coming out. CHEAP counter spells. I love the card as much
as the next person but when it comes to being Viable, then you need to save her for late game and hope
they are top decking.
If she makes it, I would actually see it happening more in a viable W devotion build if it surfaces. But then you're probably choosing between AoS and Elspeth, and I think Elspeth is the obvious choice there most likely. I wouldn't rule it out completely.
If you're banking on making it to 7 mana without ramp vs. Mono B or UW control, you're generally going to be so far behind it will be too late. Also, not to go the dies to removal route but: Thoughtseize, Lifebane Zombie, Chained to the Rocks, Selesnya Charm, Detention Sphere, and even Gild. There's more options to deal with her now than pre-Theros.
I'm planning to put together a W/u devotion deck similar to one BBD posted recently, I'm about 2 cards from finishing it now and will probably be running a 1 of Angel of Serenity as the curve topper, with an additional copy in the SB. I definitely think she has game right now, and if I can sphinx's rev into one late in the game, it could be pretty back breaking. I definitely need to test the numbers, but it seems like it should be strong. 3 Nykthos in the deck should help to power her out too.
Cool, so there are some folks that see her in different shells than G/W.
We have as other possible homes - B/W/R, W/U Midrange/Devotion, and even perhaps a Mono-W big devotion/midrange shell? Can you guys expand your ideas on the shells a bit more?
I'd also like to address some of the general sentiments against Angel of Serenity. I fully agree with you guys and acknowledge these "flaws" or holes in the AoS plan. At the exact same time though, even with these weaknesses, perceived weaknesses, or actual weaknesses that happen in real games, I do believe they can be worked around. I am not proposing Angel as a flawless answer, but I am proposing that she attacks removal heavy decks on a favorable axis. Again with her not being a flawless card, I believe she is a challenging card to fully utilize. This is why I started the thread, to explore what decks can potentially shore up her weaknesses, or want her kind of effect, or really need her as a finisher or what have you.
Let's propose some general assumptions about both what this card is trying to do, and then we can examine how it will realistically happen or not.
#1 - She is a curve topper/finisher. This point is obvious, but it goes hand in hand with some other assumptions, or rather, GOALS for the rest of the cards that come out to play before her. I'm envisioning a world/deck where she is at her theoretical best, how we make it happen is easier said than done. But the devil is in the details, if it is to happen.
-Your Angel should ideally be in a deck that has valuable/desirable threats to recur. This is one reason I believe she is not at her "theoretical best/maximum potential" in a controlling deck without many creatures of it's own. I could be wrong there.
-If you are playing quality threats up the curve, over the course of a long game, and she "gets there", your opponent should not just magically have tons of removal waiting for her. The assumption is that over the course of the game, you've exhausted, or at least somewhat strained your opponent's removal in a normal game of magic by the time she is to come down.
#2 - She is not a ramp target, specifically if trying to act as a source of card advantage/threat recursion. A little acceleration certainly can't hurt, but, that shouldn't be the primary goal here. Yes, she is expensive and prone to "cheap counterspells" or "cheap answers". The previous assumption is that the rest of your deck, if it is doing it's job and providing threats consistently, you can take the chance here in order to lock up a game - when the time is right for her to come down. Again, this stresses the point about her not being a "ramp target".
Dies to removal - we've heard that one a hundred times before, but a complete argument against any card it does not make.
I'm going to cook up some decklists, enough theorycraft, will post back later on how it's going. :> Thanks for taking the time folks.
My first proposal for AoS besides G/W, is actually straight Orzhov midrange/devotion. A couple of reasons;
-Orzhov's entire game plan is wanting to slow the pace of the game down, until you bleed your opponent dry.
-Unlike Azorius control however, Orzhov seeks to slow the game down through board presence and/or removal, rather than just removal/mass removal/card draw/more answers.
-Angel of Serenity either way you look at it, wants to be in a deck where she can boast inevitability.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
If you're banking on making it to 7 mana without ramp vs. Mono B or UW control, you're generally going to be so far behind it will be too late. Also, not to go the dies to removal route but: Thoughtseize, Lifebane Zombie, Chained to the Rocks, Selesnya Charm, Detention Sphere, and even Gild. There's more options to deal with her now than pre-Theros.
I don't agree that it's "too late" by then, but I see your point. It entirely depends on what you've done leading up to that point, and hopefully it hasn't been play 7 lands and resolve Serenity.
I did not mention Chained to the Rocks or Selesnya Charm specifically because those aren't in the Big Two - MonoBlack / U/W Control, but they certainly are valid answers. Gild is a good point, and might see some sideboard play.
Why not Elspeth and Serenity perhaps? I know a question like that is obviously *very* list dependent, but, I'm only trying to stress us being open to tech. If we're not open to new tech, the chances are we won't be playing with new tech.
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
The problem is that there is no reason to run the card right now. At 7 mana triple white I'd rather run that new boardwipe with double scry or another Elspeth. The Angel is too fragile with so much black removal and supreme verdicts/detention spheres.
If you're banking on making it to 7 mana without ramp vs. Mono B or UW control, you're generally going to be so far behind it will be too late. Also, not to go the dies to removal route but: Thoughtseize, Lifebane Zombie, Chained to the Rocks, Selesnya Charm, Detention Sphere, and even Gild. There's more options to deal with her now than pre-Theros.
I don't agree that it's "too late" by then, but I see your point. It entirely depends on what you've done leading up to that point, and hopefully it hasn't been play 7 lands and resolve Serenity.
I did not mention Chained to the Rocks or Selesnya Charm specifically because those aren't in the Big Two - MonoBlack / U/W Control, but they certainly are valid answers. Gild is a good point, and might see some sideboard play.
Why not Elspeth and Serenity perhaps? I know a question like that is obviously *very* list dependent, but, I'm only trying to stress us being open to tech. If we're not open to new tech, the chances are we won't be playing with new tech.
If you're playing against a capable Mono B or UW pilot, turn 7 is indeed usually too late. They're going to bury you in real card advantage, when all you're gaining is pseudo card advantage. If you can get her out even a single turn earlier the difference is massive, especially if you have a relatively aggressive deck that they're forced to constantly interact with.
If you kill it with the trigger on the stack the ETB trigger still resolves but the LTB never happens so instead if you chose to target 3 enemy creatures from the table those are permanently exiled which in your case (as the player of AoS) nets you a nice 4 for 1. Even if you do the reasonable option and choose to target 2 of your opponents creatures and 1 of your own in your yard you still get a 3 for 1 which is almost entirely worth it.
When an AoS gets played the opponent has to decide if they care about losing their board forever or you getting back one of your creatures.
While we are on this topic though, I am actually playing the card as a 2-of in a Bant Control deck going into BNG
Being a Midrange-Control variant, it gets to choose if it wants the game to go long (against aggro or faster midrange) or it wants to be aggressor by forcing the opponent to answer all the value you can put on the board (against slower midrange or control). I haven't been able to play-test yet from midterms, but I think it could work out fairly well.
I've been having a lot of fun with her in this W/u Devotion shell. Gotta be smart with when to play her/board her out, but she can definitely be a back-breaker.
This deck is all about creating and protecting a strong devotion base, and then just steamrolling the opponent as fast as possible. I think Archangel of Thune and Elspeth are the true win-cons, but AoS is another versatile threat that can just end the game on the spot. A bit fragile, but well positioned? Yeah, I think so.
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We already know Monoblack is "the" deck in standard ATM, blah blah blah. U/W control has already been strong on the control spectrum, and it looks like it's getting stronger in BNG.
It's certainly not out of the question to say this format is slow, and very midrange at the moment. The format is very hostile to zerg rushes. :> The Angel doesn't need Reanimator to be a powerful card. It doesn't need to be accelerated/ramped into either. The format is midrange right now, and to get (arguably) the best tempo/value out of slamming your angel, you want juicy targets from the opponent - if anything this goes against the nature of proactively ramping into something as fast as possible.
In a world like this, I believe Angel of Serenity is strongly positioned to attack both decks that like to play lots of removal. She is meant to fight through attrition battles, or even against opposing midrange creature decks, as well as any of the gods who make it to creature form. It's also worth noting that the popular black and Azorius decks right now lack many playable means to exile Angel of Serenity, save Detention Sphere. Black can also get lucky and Thoughtseize her, sure, but that doesn't permanently stop the potential problem for them of you resolving another copy. So, Angel potentially is hard for both decks to deal with, and very difficult to permanently deal with, while attacking both decks on an axis that spits in the face of card advantage - the chain of threat recursion. EDIT: I forgot to mention Lifebane Zombie. That still is more of a sideboard black card (currently), but should it be enough to effect positioning overall? That's for the meta to figure out eventually.
My first inclination is to try straight G/W, and/or Bant. Those are probably obvious, or safe picks, to assume she'll be the top curve for a heavy/midrange creature deck, but I'm wondering if there's any other ideas for quality homes for this card. Or, am I completely alone in thinking this card could trump the big bad two expected/continued boogeymen of the format?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I don't agree that she is well positioned though.
That being said, somehow packing AoS into a deck full of other potent threats might make her usable.
number of counter spells that stops her from coming out. CHEAP counter spells. I love the card as much
as the next person but when it comes to being Viable, then you need to save her for late game and hope
they are top decking.
If you're banking on making it to 7 mana without ramp vs. Mono B or UW control, you're generally going to be so far behind it will be too late. Also, not to go the dies to removal route but: Thoughtseize, Lifebane Zombie, Chained to the Rocks, Selesnya Charm, Detention Sphere, and even Gild. There's more options to deal with her now than pre-Theros.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
We have as other possible homes - B/W/R, W/U Midrange/Devotion, and even perhaps a Mono-W big devotion/midrange shell? Can you guys expand your ideas on the shells a bit more?
I'd also like to address some of the general sentiments against Angel of Serenity. I fully agree with you guys and acknowledge these "flaws" or holes in the AoS plan. At the exact same time though, even with these weaknesses, perceived weaknesses, or actual weaknesses that happen in real games, I do believe they can be worked around. I am not proposing Angel as a flawless answer, but I am proposing that she attacks removal heavy decks on a favorable axis. Again with her not being a flawless card, I believe she is a challenging card to fully utilize. This is why I started the thread, to explore what decks can potentially shore up her weaknesses, or want her kind of effect, or really need her as a finisher or what have you.
Let's propose some general assumptions about both what this card is trying to do, and then we can examine how it will realistically happen or not.
#1 - She is a curve topper/finisher. This point is obvious, but it goes hand in hand with some other assumptions, or rather, GOALS for the rest of the cards that come out to play before her. I'm envisioning a world/deck where she is at her theoretical best, how we make it happen is easier said than done. But the devil is in the details, if it is to happen.
-Your Angel should ideally be in a deck that has valuable/desirable threats to recur. This is one reason I believe she is not at her "theoretical best/maximum potential" in a controlling deck without many creatures of it's own. I could be wrong there.
-If you are playing quality threats up the curve, over the course of a long game, and she "gets there", your opponent should not just magically have tons of removal waiting for her. The assumption is that over the course of the game, you've exhausted, or at least somewhat strained your opponent's removal in a normal game of magic by the time she is to come down.
#2 - She is not a ramp target, specifically if trying to act as a source of card advantage/threat recursion. A little acceleration certainly can't hurt, but, that shouldn't be the primary goal here. Yes, she is expensive and prone to "cheap counterspells" or "cheap answers". The previous assumption is that the rest of your deck, if it is doing it's job and providing threats consistently, you can take the chance here in order to lock up a game - when the time is right for her to come down. Again, this stresses the point about her not being a "ramp target".
Dies to removal - we've heard that one a hundred times before, but a complete argument against any card it does not make.
I'm going to cook up some decklists, enough theorycraft, will post back later on how it's going. :> Thanks for taking the time folks.
My first proposal for AoS besides G/W, is actually straight Orzhov midrange/devotion. A couple of reasons;
-Orzhov's entire game plan is wanting to slow the pace of the game down, until you bleed your opponent dry.
-Unlike Azorius control however, Orzhov seeks to slow the game down through board presence and/or removal, rather than just removal/mass removal/card draw/more answers.
-Angel of Serenity either way you look at it, wants to be in a deck where she can boast inevitability.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
I don't agree that it's "too late" by then, but I see your point. It entirely depends on what you've done leading up to that point, and hopefully it hasn't been play 7 lands and resolve Serenity.
I did not mention Chained to the Rocks or Selesnya Charm specifically because those aren't in the Big Two - MonoBlack / U/W Control, but they certainly are valid answers. Gild is a good point, and might see some sideboard play.
Why not Elspeth and Serenity perhaps? I know a question like that is obviously *very* list dependent, but, I'm only trying to stress us being open to tech. If we're not open to new tech, the chances are we won't be playing with new tech.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=9157664&postcount=1
South Carolina State Champion: 2012
Yo dawg Frites Player, we herd you liked getting 1 for 3'd by Angel of Serenity, so we put some Angels in your Angel (Avacyn) so you can get chained while you get exiled. ANGELCEPTION.
If you're playing against a capable Mono B or UW pilot, turn 7 is indeed usually too late. They're going to bury you in real card advantage, when all you're gaining is pseudo card advantage. If you can get her out even a single turn earlier the difference is massive, especially if you have a relatively aggressive deck that they're forced to constantly interact with.
Standard:
RW Boros devotion/Purphoros combo
RGB Jund Midrange
Modern:
WB Martyr.proc
When an AoS gets played the opponent has to decide if they care about losing their board forever or you getting back one of your creatures.
While we are on this topic though, I am actually playing the card as a 2-of in a Bant Control deck going into BNG
My list so far seems comprised of:
4 Temple Garden
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Breeding Pool
4 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Mystery
3 Island
2 Plains
Creature:
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Horizon Chimera
2 Archangel of Thune
2 Scion of Vitu-Ghazi
2 Angel of Serenity
3 Azorius Charm
2 Syncopate
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Dissolve
Sorcery:
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Beck // Call
Planeswalker:
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
Other:
3 Detention Sphere
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Revoke Existence
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Sylvan Primordial
3 Gainsay
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Azorius Charm
2 Selesnya Charm
1 Pithing Needle
Being a Midrange-Control variant, it gets to choose if it wants the game to go long (against aggro or faster midrange) or it wants to be aggressor by forcing the opponent to answer all the value you can put on the board (against slower midrange or control). I haven't been able to play-test yet from midterms, but I think it could work out fairly well.
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Precinct Captain
4x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Heliod, God of the Sun
4x Archangel of Thune
2x Angel of Serenity
Spells (10)
4x Brave The Elements
4x Detention Sphere
2x Spear of Heliod
2x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Land (24)
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Temple of Enlightenment
2x Island
10x Plains
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rapid Hybridization
2x Last Breath
2x Negate
2x Revoke Existence
3x Rootborn Defenses
2x Jace, Memory Adept
This deck is all about creating and protecting a strong devotion base, and then just steamrolling the opponent as fast as possible. I think Archangel of Thune and Elspeth are the true win-cons, but AoS is another versatile threat that can just end the game on the spot. A bit fragile, but well positioned? Yeah, I think so.