Dark Betrayal hits Cackler, Jester, and Mangler. Pharika's Cure hits Experiment One, Cackler, and Jester. Pre-board it's fast enough, but post-board it seems like mono-black has enough sideboard options to stabilize long enough to take control of the game.
Yeah those do hit and they do have that Sideboard. I have had games where I cant even get going before they 7are picking me apart. I have also had the opposite. Definitely agree with what another commenter said and that is MBD is the considered the best deck in standard right now. Jund of any sort will not "wreck" MBD. I really think ive won because of using unconventional creature set for most Jund.
I was thinking Reaper of the Wilds in addition to all the other cards y'all were mentioning. Making it Hexproof and all is a real thorn in the side of MBD spot removal.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
But in all cases hexproof is a pretty good option against MBD with G, so witchstalker is pretty good against the B/U match ups.4
MBD is just really good bc of consistent mana base along with U, so they are splashing B for hero's downfall, etc. Which i think gives them more utility, but at the cost of destroying their consistent mana base.
Mono black is actually a really weak deck in this weird devotion strat
It only works because people don't understand how to deal with Packrat or Desecration Demon and save their removal for high value threats.
Basically kill the Rats before they multiply and Downfall the Demons.
Win through a monstrous Stormbreath Dragon
But in all cases hexproof is a pretty good option against MBD with G, so witchstalker is pretty good against the B/U match ups.4
MBD is just really good bc of consistent mana base along with U, so they are splashing B for hero's downfall, etc. Which i think gives them more utility, but at the cost of destroying their consistent mana base.
I'm sorry what MBD list sideboards Far // Away? More importantly how does reaper just lose to it? They have to draw it and cast it before reaper does anything in order to get value. Right I forgot we are playing in magical Christmas land where our opponent has every answer ever and never misplays.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
The problem in general is not a card but a strategy issue. MBD and Jund are basically trying to do the exact same thing and MBD does it better. Usually having access to multiple colors gives you better card options and increases the power level of individual cards. Unfortunately this metagame it means worse mana, and effects and cards that aren't necessarily better. Just compare what each deck is doing up the curve. Jund has answers for somethings that MBD can't (including an early sweeper), it has access to planeswalkers (which have proven to be not as effective in this metagame as enchantments in the sub 6 mana zone), and it has more powerful discard like Rakdos' Return and Slaughter Games. However, none of these factors particularly matter in a grindy game against MBD. MBD empties it's hand fast enough that Return might not hit the right time, it has a better early board presence, it has pound for pound equal or bigger threats later in the game, a better card advantage engine, more uses for spare mana,..etc. It's kind of annoying really when think about it, that the devotion deck in a sense is more aggressive, yet with Grey Merchant is the only deck with access to this format's Thragtusk (not as good but I mean in a valueless format....). It basically invalidates other grinding midrange by principle.
Really for Jund to win against MBD it needs to some how change of the tempo of the matchup. It can try to deploy more resilient threats that MBD can't hit effectively, and it has to take a more proactive role to leverage these threats because given time Mono Black will out draw it. Problem is these tacts generally make the cost of playing 3 colours and taplands worse. This leads you to GB generally which has other issues. If your deck is aggressive enough it can beat MBD, but I believe it requires enough retooling you are basically playing a different deck and need to consider the rest of the field. That's what led me back to Aggro Jund builds but I don't think they are necessarily that impressive in general (even if it's possible to make it have a good MBD matchup).
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Mono black is actually a really weak deck in this weird devotion strat
It only works because people don't understand how to deal with Packrat or Desecration Demon and save their removal for high value threats.
Basically kill the Rats before they multiply and Downfall the Demons.
Win through a monstrous Stormbreath Dragon
The window for killing rats before they multiple is usually one turn. Simply saying "always have the removal for a turn two pack rat" is very nice and all, but doesn't happen very often because most decks don't play many removal spells.
I didn't read the whole 3 pgs but one card I've used in jund to fight MBC is Underworld Cerberus. In the right deck (aka a deck with lots of threats + Domri Rade + Scavenging Ooze) he make it very hard for them to win w/o stringing multiple Garys.
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Mentioned once already but Skullcrack is definitely a card to help combat mono black. It sucks leaving 2 mana open for turn 5+ but it will be worth it when they lose three life instead of gaining 6+ life. I honestly forgot about it until just recently and Im almost thinking of running it mainboard.
I also think that maybe some hexproof could be worth it as well. Hero's Downfall is there go to card
Beating mono-black isn't that hard. I do it consistently with my deck, The Rock. Abrupt Decay wrecks them, Gaze of Granite kills all rats, and Reaper of the Wilds makes their 1-for-1 removal bad. Keep the board clear, land 1 big threat, and beat them down with it. They rely very heavily on board presence or Underworld Connections, so golgari's removal suite is perfect against them.
On the other side of the Jund coin, mono-black also struggles with gruul planeswalkers. Xenagos, the Reveler in particular is great against mono-black because it spits out a steady stream of creatures turn after turn.
Lastly, mono-black has 0 answers to enchantments or gods (apart from Thoughtseize, but they only have so many copies of that, and it doesn't do anything against the top of your deck). I'm not sure what good Jund enchantments there are, but both Xenagos, God of Revels and Mogis, God of Slaughter seem pretty good against mono-black.
Just keep in mind that mono-black is the big kid on the playground because it is incredibly consistent and has a very powerful proactive gameplan. That does not make it unbeatable. It has weaknesses, just like any other deck. Those weaknesses can be exploited, and the matchup can be won. Your biggest problem is going to be fighting your own mana-base, and making sure you're good against the rest of the field as well. If you're not married to the idea of 3 colors, I highly recommend that Rock deck I posted earlier. It has done very well for me so far, and doesn't really have any bad matchups that I have found yet. Tons of fun too. Jund gives you a few more toys, but I'm just not sure the manabase is worth it.
Beating mono-black isn't that hard. I do it consistently with my deck, The Rock. Abrupt Decay wrecks them, Gaze of Granite kills all rats, and Reaper of the Wilds makes their 1-for-1 removal bad. Keep the board clear, land 1 big threat, and beat them down with it. They rely very heavily on board presence or Underworld Connections, so golgari's removal suite is perfect against them.
On the other side of the Jund coin, mono-black also struggles with gruul planeswalkers. Xenagos, the Reveler in particular is great against mono-black because it spits out a steady stream of creatures turn after turn.
Lastly, mono-black has 0 answers to enchantments or gods (apart from Thoughtseize, but they only have so many copies of that, and it doesn't do anything against the top of your deck). I'm not sure what good Jund enchantments there are, but both Xenagos, God of Revels and Mogis, God of Slaughter seem pretty good against mono-black.
Just keep in mind that mono-black is the big kid on the playground because it is incredibly consistent and has a very powerful proactive gameplan. That does not make it unbeatable. It has weaknesses, just like any other deck. Those weaknesses can be exploited, and the matchup can be won. Your biggest problem is going to be fighting your own mana-base, and making sure you're good against the rest of the field as well. If you're not married to the idea of 3 colors, I highly recommend that Rock deck I posted earlier. It has done very well for me so far, and doesn't really have any bad matchups that I have found yet. Tons of fun too. Jund gives you a few more toys, but I'm just not sure the manabase is worth it.
As mono black, I don' really fear jund or BR monsters. Those decks "can be" an issue.... but consistently they are not.
The only deck I tend to have recurring problems against is RDW or red devotion.
I'd suggest going B/G. Yes, you lose out on Rakdo's Return (although you could sure splash it in). However you gain a lot more of a simple thing that MBD has and Jund doesn't (in this environment but did in times past). Consistency.
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Vintage. That's about it. Maybe Standard, if it could get it together into something interesting enough to play.
Kind just doesn't have what it takes in this format. It doesn't have the mana base(worse lands for 3c), the ramp(farseek), the fixing(farseek), the stabalizing creatures(Tusk/Huntmaster) or the long list of 4-5cmc cards that win the game alone and are impossible to 1-for-1 without counters (Olivia, Tusk, Huntmaster, Garruk, Liliana...). Jund just doesn't have access to much that MBD doesn't have already. Pretty much just enchantment removal, slightly better aggro removal, and Return. These aren't nearly enough to make up for the loss of consistency. MBD is both more consistent in the early game AND has a better late game overall. June is able to build to beat MBD, but at the cost of being much weaker against the field
Beating mono-black isn't that hard. I do it consistently with my deck, The Rock. Abrupt Decay wrecks them, Gaze of Granite kills all rats, and Reaper of the Wilds makes their 1-for-1 removal bad. Keep the board clear, land 1 big threat, and beat them down with it. They rely very heavily on board presence or Underworld Connections, so golgari's removal suite is perfect against them.
On the other side of the Jund coin, mono-black also struggles with gruul planeswalkers. Xenagos, the Reveler in particular is great against mono-black because it spits out a steady stream of creatures turn after turn.
Lastly, mono-black has 0 answers to enchantments or gods (apart from Thoughtseize, but they only have so many copies of that, and it doesn't do anything against the top of your deck). I'm not sure what good Jund enchantments there are, but both Xenagos, God of Revels and Mogis, God of Slaughter seem pretty good against mono-black.
Just keep in mind that mono-black is the big kid on the playground because it is incredibly consistent and has a very powerful proactive gameplan. That does not make it unbeatable. It has weaknesses, just like any other deck. Those weaknesses can be exploited, and the matchup can be won. Your biggest problem is going to be fighting your own mana-base, and making sure you're good against the rest of the field as well. If you're not married to the idea of 3 colors, I highly recommend that Rock deck I posted earlier. It has done very well for me so far, and doesn't really have any bad matchups that I have found yet. Tons of fun too. Jund gives you a few more toys, but I'm just not sure the manabase is worth it.
I really like this reply. As much as Jund has been a problem in the past, the rotation has crippled it enough to fall from mainstream play. I have seen decent brews but they are mostly dredge brews. Like Aid says, Mogis, Golgari Charm, and Xenagos are awesome against monoblack. You could try Anger of the Gods for their Pack Rats and Specters, but that could also hurt you early on depending on your creature base. The main thing is, stop their Pack Rats and Demons. So Slaughter Games and Thoughtseize will help. Also Duress wont hurt to add in either against their Underworld Connections and all their removal. Sideboard Dark Betrayals and consider making use of Rakdos' Return. If you want a mid-game win con. No one likes top decking after R. Return. MBD, as annoying as it is, isn't hard to SB against for local meta. Its the big tournaments that make it difficult when you try to SB against the top 3 or 4 decks at the same time.
Yeah those do hit and they do have that Sideboard. I have had games where I cant even get going before they 7are picking me apart. I have also had the opposite. Definitely agree with what another commenter said and that is MBD is the considered the best deck in standard right now. Jund of any sort will not "wreck" MBD. I really think ive won because of using unconventional creature set for most Jund.
But in all cases hexproof is a pretty good option against MBD with G, so witchstalker is pretty good against the B/U match ups.4
MBD is just really good bc of consistent mana base along with U, so they are splashing B for hero's downfall, etc. Which i think gives them more utility, but at the cost of destroying their consistent mana base.
It only works because people don't understand how to deal with Packrat or Desecration Demon and save their removal for high value threats.
Basically kill the Rats before they multiply and Downfall the Demons.
Win through a monstrous Stormbreath Dragon
I'm sorry what MBD list sideboards Far // Away? More importantly how does reaper just lose to it? They have to draw it and cast it before reaper does anything in order to get value. Right I forgot we are playing in magical Christmas land where our opponent has every answer ever and never misplays.
Really for Jund to win against MBD it needs to some how change of the tempo of the matchup. It can try to deploy more resilient threats that MBD can't hit effectively, and it has to take a more proactive role to leverage these threats because given time Mono Black will out draw it. Problem is these tacts generally make the cost of playing 3 colours and taplands worse. This leads you to GB generally which has other issues. If your deck is aggressive enough it can beat MBD, but I believe it requires enough retooling you are basically playing a different deck and need to consider the rest of the field. That's what led me back to Aggro Jund builds but I don't think they are necessarily that impressive in general (even if it's possible to make it have a good MBD matchup).
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The window for killing rats before they multiple is usually one turn. Simply saying "always have the removal for a turn two pack rat" is very nice and all, but doesn't happen very often because most decks don't play many removal spells.
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I also think that maybe some hexproof could be worth it as well. Hero's Downfall is there go to card
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
On the other side of the Jund coin, mono-black also struggles with gruul planeswalkers. Xenagos, the Reveler in particular is great against mono-black because it spits out a steady stream of creatures turn after turn.
Lastly, mono-black has 0 answers to enchantments or gods (apart from Thoughtseize, but they only have so many copies of that, and it doesn't do anything against the top of your deck). I'm not sure what good Jund enchantments there are, but both Xenagos, God of Revels and Mogis, God of Slaughter seem pretty good against mono-black.
Just keep in mind that mono-black is the big kid on the playground because it is incredibly consistent and has a very powerful proactive gameplan. That does not make it unbeatable. It has weaknesses, just like any other deck. Those weaknesses can be exploited, and the matchup can be won. Your biggest problem is going to be fighting your own mana-base, and making sure you're good against the rest of the field as well. If you're not married to the idea of 3 colors, I highly recommend that Rock deck I posted earlier. It has done very well for me so far, and doesn't really have any bad matchups that I have found yet. Tons of fun too. Jund gives you a few more toys, but I'm just not sure the manabase is worth it.
As mono black, I don' really fear jund or BR monsters. Those decks "can be" an issue.... but consistently they are not.
The only deck I tend to have recurring problems against is RDW or red devotion.
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I'd suggest going B/G. Yes, you lose out on Rakdo's Return (although you could sure splash it in). However you gain a lot more of a simple thing that MBD has and Jund doesn't (in this environment but did in times past). Consistency.
I really like this reply. As much as Jund has been a problem in the past, the rotation has crippled it enough to fall from mainstream play. I have seen decent brews but they are mostly dredge brews. Like Aid says, Mogis, Golgari Charm, and Xenagos are awesome against monoblack. You could try Anger of the Gods for their Pack Rats and Specters, but that could also hurt you early on depending on your creature base. The main thing is, stop their Pack Rats and Demons. So Slaughter Games and Thoughtseize will help. Also Duress wont hurt to add in either against their Underworld Connections and all their removal. Sideboard Dark Betrayals and consider making use of Rakdos' Return. If you want a mid-game win con. No one likes top decking after R. Return. MBD, as annoying as it is, isn't hard to SB against for local meta. Its the big tournaments that make it difficult when you try to SB against the top 3 or 4 decks at the same time.