I have this list here for you all that I'm very excited about. It's a fun synergistic blend of aggro, mid-range and control. The point of this deck is to constantly play creatures with evasion. Through some testing, I have found Menace to be an incredible form of evasion, even more effective than flying when a deck is built around it. Essentially, we attack with everything we can nearly every turn.
The deck runs a bunch of cheap removal spells to ensure that the opponent can't block our menace creatures. The deck puts a very fast clock on an opponent.
At the same time, it has good reach and can usually can handle games that go long. Avaricious Dragon goes along way in accomplishing this. Ire Shaman can be a good top deck late game and give us an extra card. Sin Prodder is usually a prime target for removal, but if it sticks around, man does it hurt! I actually end up drawing more cards than you'd expect from it thanks to all the early pressure put on an opponent's life total. They just can't afford to take straight damage mid-late game, yet our cards can easily be cast if they put them in our hands.
Some of my favorite plays include discarding Incorrigible Youths to transform Heir of Falkenwrath on turn 3, resulting in 7 damage if our opponents are slow to play creatures or have only tapped creatures. Youths also makes a great turn 4 play with Lightning Axe or a sinister concoction played on an earlier turn. Remove the biggest blocker and get in 4 haste damage. I've been finding the madness synergy to work pretty well. It allows me to dump my hand fast to have it filled up again with Sin Prodder or Avaricious Dragon.
Sideboard is a work in progress. Anyone have any suggestions/comments? I'll be playing it at FNM tomorrow. I'll post back to let you know how it goes.
My only suggestion is to focus the deck. you have so many 1-ofs, 2-ofs and 3-ofs, and very few 4-ofs. I think you will also want to maximize your 1 drops. 4 ofs for both you Neonate and Messenger.
What's your plan with Skin Invasion? Are you want to kill your opponent's creatures or your own (by making them attack repeatedly)? I mean, I can see it being a great combo with Insolent Neonate and Fiery Temper, but that's a lot of cards to have in your opening hand... especially since you're only a 2-of for the Neonate.
At any rate, you definitely need to get your deck focused and down to the cards you really like.
Good point. I used to run 4 Insolent Neonates in the deck but found that I saw them too often. Late game they become pay 1 mana to draw and discard. I felt having more larger creatures would help to keep the deck from stalling in getting the damage through.
I really only need either a Skin Invasion with a removal spell, or Insolent Neonate, not both. Insolent Neonate can sac. its self with no need for removal. The reason I see Skin Invasion as valuable is because it's a ton of value packed into a card, and it helps further our cause of getting through damage from Menace as it keeps their creature from blocking. Skin invasion is not a card I've tested in the deck yet, so I'll see how it performs. Essentially I saw that it provides a lot of value for a low cost and is an aggro card. My plan will be to play it on their creature then kill that creature with removal. It can be accomplished on turn 3 with Ultimate Price, Murderous Compulsion, Sinister Concoction or Grasp of Darkness. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. Thanks for the feedback.
For Skin Invasion to be the most effective, you want it out as early as possible when the answers for it are as few as possible. Unless you can throw it on an opponent's 1-drop, then the earliest you'll get it out is turn 2, and you can have it flipped and attacking turn 3. That's a decent play. I don't think it's that great because there are a lot of creatures in the format that achieve the same thing. Pale Rider of Trostad comes to mind, and it does it without the need to sacrifice a creature to make it happen.
Insolent Neonate is a great card. Even in the late game. It can sift through when you're top decking, chump block, and is a madness enabler. Don't move away from that guy if you're wanting to run RB Vamps.
Thanks for the feedback! It has been very helpful and I'm most grateful.
That is a really good point about Insolent Neonate. I was judging it too harshly. It has been amazing to play on turn 1! It usually just gets in damage the entire game. No one wants to block a 1/1 with 2 creatures when there are larger creatures out that need to be blocked by 2 creatures. I forgot how useful it is to sack an early Neonate to madness in Incorrigible Youths when they leave their board open. I like that it's a madness enabler that costs nothing to activate the turn after you play it.
I've been considering putting in another Incorrigible Youths to make it a 4 count. It can come out turn 3 off a neonate or Heir to Falkenwrath transformation. Haste is really good with all of the menace as it screws up with their blocking plans even further. If the opponent is setting up to block a flying creature or menace creature, they have to choose between blocking the creature with evasion/lower power or usually trading a creature to block 4 unexpected haste damage from youths. If a game goes to the point where I have 5 mana, a 4/3 haste is often all that's needed to win. Then again, if I'm adding another high cmc card, perhaps it should be Avaricious Dragon. That card is more powerful overall, but not as fast or cheap. I do like the 4 toughness as well for those grindy games. It is my only 4 toughness creature, hmm.
What do you think of turning my 2 Sinister Concoctions for 2 more Lightning Axes? When I think about it, Lightning Axe is going to kill just about everything in standard for one less mana and have a greater surprise factor. I could just sideboard in other removal games 2/3 if I'm playing against a deck with giant creatures. It also helps exquisite Firecraft become more relevant against counterspell.
I went 3:4 on actual games played and 2:2 for matches with one of them being a by. I was not too happy with the results but I'm probably just extra upset on having a by on my first chance to play standard. :frown::frown: My second match should have been mine I feel. I was playing a mill deck who milled me down exactly to the card with 1 life left and no chance of survival the next turn. I beat him reasonably easily second game. Third game I stalled at 2 mana for 4 turns! Even so I was able to more than half his life total.
The deck had problems with mana and playing out cards fast enough. I have only played modern so I'm used to always having the mana color needed on turn one. Hands in which I had access to no red mana on turn one really screwed me over with so many red one drops. I'm going to put in 4 Foreboding Ruins and go down to 2 of the dual lands to help with this. My mana situation seemed pretty screwed up most games. I found my hand getting gummed up with too many Avaricious Dragon and Incorrigible Youths. I couldn't play my cards out fast enough to justify playing Avaricious Dragon on the curve. Senseless rage was usually terrible as it just invited me to be on the wrong side of a 2 for 1. Village Messenger was no good. It was too hard to flip and not powerful enough late game. Trading Ire Shaman for that card was a bad idea. Ire Shaman would have been better in almost every situation over Village Messenger.
Sin Prodder was great! Avaricious Dragon was also great too. In one game I was able to stabilize after going down to 4 life with my opponent at 20. Dragon drew into more dragons and heir to falkenwrath. It was an amazing comeback and demonstrated the power of the card. I realize now that in order to make use of it, the deck needs to be playing a spell every turn, hopefully 2 spells some turns. I went up to 24 lands to assure this. I played down the madness spells. It also made the deck clunky and could lead to me not playing spells to try to enable madness. Murderous Compulsion was terrible. Having to wait until a creature becomes tapped is too much trouble.
Here's the new and improved deck list. I feel that this deck stands a chance to shine at FNM. Any thoughts?
I'm not totally sold on Sin Prodder. I'd considered him in my Avaricious Dragon+Asylum Visitor deck (BTW, I think if you're playing Red/Black and you have one of those cards, you should definitely be playing with the other as well). The problem in my deck is that it seems like it would always be a smart idea to just have the card put in the GY because I could also get more damage out of the cards than just the CMC. Now, that doesn't seem like it would happen all the time with your deck, but I can definitely see some times where it's an easy decision. In the cases where it's an easy decision, those cards should be taken out.
For Example, Unnatural Endurance. It has a CMC of 1 but it will likely be used to inflict 2 damage (as well as possibly saving a creature). That's a very easy decision, which means it probably doesn't belong with Sin Prodder.
I just posted this updated deck list under Deck Creation Standard. Check it out there for further posts. You must keep in mind that the chances of drawing unnatural Endurance are much greater than it being revealed via sin prodder. We have 7 chances right off the bat in our opening hand. That card is usually a two for one, sometimes 3 for one if they are blocking a menace creature with 2 of their creatures.
You must also not discount that most of the time, Sin Prodder will filter lands out of the deck for us. I see this as the main advantage of the card in this deck next to it being a 3/2 menace. It works in this build because it puts on early pressure and even 1 extra damage taken from a prodder is eventually going to be too much for the opponent. The low cmc curve means Sin Prodder filtering out land/low cost spells means we are more likely to draw a fatty like Avaricious Dragon.
Anyway, check out the other thread if you feel like talking about the deck more. I did add 4 Asylum Visitor to the deck and can't wait to see how it plays out.
Touch of Moonglove has been working really well for me in my standard pauper deck. It is also geared towards menace and madness. When you apply enough early pressure you'll force your opponent to double block and the you hit them with touch. Two dead defenders 4 damage to the face..... For one mana that's a huge bargain.
Call the Bloodline is also a great madness outlet for this deck. It ensures your visitor is always getting his triggers and the life gain helps you race.
The deck runs a bunch of cheap removal spells to ensure that the opponent can't block our menace creatures. The deck puts a very fast clock on an opponent.
At the same time, it has good reach and can usually can handle games that go long. Avaricious Dragon goes along way in accomplishing this. Ire Shaman can be a good top deck late game and give us an extra card. Sin Prodder is usually a prime target for removal, but if it sticks around, man does it hurt! I actually end up drawing more cards than you'd expect from it thanks to all the early pressure put on an opponent's life total. They just can't afford to take straight damage mid-late game, yet our cards can easily be cast if they put them in our hands.
Some of my favorite plays include discarding Incorrigible Youths to transform Heir of Falkenwrath on turn 3, resulting in 7 damage if our opponents are slow to play creatures or have only tapped creatures. Youths also makes a great turn 4 play with Lightning Axe or a sinister concoction played on an earlier turn. Remove the biggest blocker and get in 4 haste damage. I've been finding the madness synergy to work pretty well. It allows me to dump my hand fast to have it filled up again with Sin Prodder or Avaricious Dragon.
Sideboard is a work in progress. Anyone have any suggestions/comments? I'll be playing it at FNM tomorrow. I'll post back to let you know how it goes.
3 Village Messenger
3 Ire Shaman
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
4 Sin Prodder
3 Incorrigible Youths
3 Avaricious Dragon
2 Skin Invasion
2 Unnatural Endurance
4 Fiery Temper
2 Ultimate Price
2 Sinister Concotion
1 Lightning Axe
1 Murderous Compulsion
1 Grasp of Darkness
9 Swamp
3 Smoldering Marsh
2 Foreboding Ruins
Malevolent Whispers or Act of Treason
3 Transgress the mind
4 Duress
2 Exquisite Fire Craft
3 Virulent Plague
What's your plan with Skin Invasion? Are you want to kill your opponent's creatures or your own (by making them attack repeatedly)? I mean, I can see it being a great combo with Insolent Neonate and Fiery Temper, but that's a lot of cards to have in your opening hand... especially since you're only a 2-of for the Neonate.
At any rate, you definitely need to get your deck focused and down to the cards you really like.
I really only need either a Skin Invasion with a removal spell, or Insolent Neonate, not both. Insolent Neonate can sac. its self with no need for removal. The reason I see Skin Invasion as valuable is because it's a ton of value packed into a card, and it helps further our cause of getting through damage from Menace as it keeps their creature from blocking. Skin invasion is not a card I've tested in the deck yet, so I'll see how it performs. Essentially I saw that it provides a lot of value for a low cost and is an aggro card. My plan will be to play it on their creature then kill that creature with removal. It can be accomplished on turn 3 with Ultimate Price, Murderous Compulsion, Sinister Concoction or Grasp of Darkness. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. Thanks for the feedback.
Insolent Neonate is a great card. Even in the late game. It can sift through when you're top decking, chump block, and is a madness enabler. Don't move away from that guy if you're wanting to run RB Vamps.
That is a really good point about Insolent Neonate. I was judging it too harshly. It has been amazing to play on turn 1! It usually just gets in damage the entire game. No one wants to block a 1/1 with 2 creatures when there are larger creatures out that need to be blocked by 2 creatures. I forgot how useful it is to sack an early Neonate to madness in Incorrigible Youths when they leave their board open. I like that it's a madness enabler that costs nothing to activate the turn after you play it.
I've been considering putting in another Incorrigible Youths to make it a 4 count. It can come out turn 3 off a neonate or Heir to Falkenwrath transformation. Haste is really good with all of the menace as it screws up with their blocking plans even further. If the opponent is setting up to block a flying creature or menace creature, they have to choose between blocking the creature with evasion/lower power or usually trading a creature to block 4 unexpected haste damage from youths. If a game goes to the point where I have 5 mana, a 4/3 haste is often all that's needed to win. Then again, if I'm adding another high cmc card, perhaps it should be Avaricious Dragon. That card is more powerful overall, but not as fast or cheap. I do like the 4 toughness as well for those grindy games. It is my only 4 toughness creature, hmm.
What do you think of turning my 2 Sinister Concoctions for 2 more Lightning Axes? When I think about it, Lightning Axe is going to kill just about everything in standard for one less mana and have a greater surprise factor. I could just sideboard in other removal games 2/3 if I'm playing against a deck with giant creatures. It also helps exquisite Firecraft become more relevant against counterspell.
Here's a new deck list:
2 Village Messenger
3 Ire Shaman
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
4 Sin Prodder
3 Incorrigible Youths
4 Avaricious Dragon
2 Unnatural Endurance
4 Fiery Temper
2 Ultimate Price
3 Lightning Axe
1 Murderous Compulsion
1 Grasp of Darkness
9 Swamp
3 Smoldering Marsh
2 Foreboding Ruins
Malevolent Whispers or Act of Treason
3 Transgress the mind
4 Duress
2 Exquisite Fire Craft
3 Virulent Plague
3 Village Messenger
1 Ire Shaman
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
3 Sin Prodder
3 Incorrigible Youths
4 Avaricious Dragon
2 Unnatural Endurance
3 Senseless Rage
4 Fiery Temper
2 Ultimate Price
3 Lightning Axe
2 Murderous Compulsion
8 Swamp
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Foreboding Ruins
1 Ruinous Path
2 Unnatural Endurance
3 Transgress the mind
4 Duress
1 Exquisite Fire Craft
1 Virulent Plague
3 Boiling Earth
The deck had problems with mana and playing out cards fast enough. I have only played modern so I'm used to always having the mana color needed on turn one. Hands in which I had access to no red mana on turn one really screwed me over with so many red one drops. I'm going to put in 4 Foreboding Ruins and go down to 2 of the dual lands to help with this. My mana situation seemed pretty screwed up most games. I found my hand getting gummed up with too many Avaricious Dragon and Incorrigible Youths. I couldn't play my cards out fast enough to justify playing Avaricious Dragon on the curve. Senseless rage was usually terrible as it just invited me to be on the wrong side of a 2 for 1. Village Messenger was no good. It was too hard to flip and not powerful enough late game. Trading Ire Shaman for that card was a bad idea. Ire Shaman would have been better in almost every situation over Village Messenger.
Sin Prodder was great! Avaricious Dragon was also great too. In one game I was able to stabilize after going down to 4 life with my opponent at 20. Dragon drew into more dragons and heir to falkenwrath. It was an amazing comeback and demonstrated the power of the card. I realize now that in order to make use of it, the deck needs to be playing a spell every turn, hopefully 2 spells some turns. I went up to 24 lands to assure this. I played down the madness spells. It also made the deck clunky and could lead to me not playing spells to try to enable madness. Murderous Compulsion was terrible. Having to wait until a creature becomes tapped is too much trouble.
Here's the new and improved deck list. I feel that this deck stands a chance to shine at FNM. Any thoughts?
3 Ire Shaman
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Heir of Falkenwrath
4 Sin Prodder
4 Avaricious Dragon
2 Unnatural Endurance
2 Infernal Scarring
4 Fiery Temper
4 Ultimate Price
1 Grasp of Darkness
9 Swamp
2 Smoldering Marsh
4 Foreboding Ruins
1 Ruinous Path
2 Unnatural Endurance
3 Transgress the mind
4 Duress
1 Exquisite Fire Craft
1 Virulent Plague
3 Boiling Earth
For Example, Unnatural Endurance. It has a CMC of 1 but it will likely be used to inflict 2 damage (as well as possibly saving a creature). That's a very easy decision, which means it probably doesn't belong with Sin Prodder.
You must also not discount that most of the time, Sin Prodder will filter lands out of the deck for us. I see this as the main advantage of the card in this deck next to it being a 3/2 menace. It works in this build because it puts on early pressure and even 1 extra damage taken from a prodder is eventually going to be too much for the opponent. The low cmc curve means Sin Prodder filtering out land/low cost spells means we are more likely to draw a fatty like Avaricious Dragon.
Anyway, check out the other thread if you feel like talking about the deck more. I did add 4 Asylum Visitor to the deck and can't wait to see how it plays out.
Call the Bloodline is also a great madness outlet for this deck. It ensures your visitor is always getting his triggers and the life gain helps you race.
If you are interested in posting any more about this deck please do it there. It's not budget, but it's been working!