Hello everyone. I've been out of the game a little bit and I saw a build similar to mine going around as what is a pretty good deck for being not so expensive. Seeing as how many deck's mana bases alone cost three time this entire decks worth.
I have played this deck only like three times and it was against a FNM winning rakdos deck from about 7 months ago, maybe. So what i am trying to find out... with this deck, and with 30 - 40 more dollars to spend:
*what should i get? or if i should get anything?
*What are the new relevant threats that this deck could handle in the new khans of tahkir standard?
*What new threats cant it handle?
*Would it just be worth it to fork over the cash for the fetch lands?
*Am i dreaming that a non-3-colored deck can dominate it any relevant standard?
I Like the Phalanx Leader, i think it may find an entry to the deck...
But like i said, i have only played this deck a handful of times and i am trying to get this thing ready for my first FNM in a loooooong time.
Thanks for reading .
Just for reference this is what it started out as... and i am also curious to knw if maybe this way was a buit better?
I have played this deck only like three times and it was against a FNM winning rakdos deck from about 7 months ago, maybe. So what i am trying to find out... with this deck, and with 30 - 40 more dollars to spend:
*what should i get? or if i should get anything?
*What are the new relevant threats that this deck could handle in the new khans of tahkir standard?
*What new threats cant it handle?
*Would it just be worth it to fork over the cash for the fetch lands?
*Am i dreaming that a non-3-colored deck can dominate it any relevant standard?
These are some ironic questions. Very ironic.
"Am I dreaming that a non-3 colored deck can dominate any relevant standard?" Khans is debatable but all you have to do is look back not too long ago when mono black devotion was wrecking. Mono blue devotion had its limelight time too. RDW of some varieties has been in standard with some level of prevalence since who knows how far back and is still present and performing pretty well. Those are mono colored decks. GR monsters was a thing last rotation. Green devotion is a thing in this standard still. Whether a non-3 colored deck will dominate right now? Probably not since Khans was a wedge set with some nice goodies but that will change with time.
"Would it be worth it to just fork over the cash for the fetch lands?" Depends. If you're doing it to have them for later, you bet. If you're trying to do a bang for your buck spend and don't plan on ever liquidating them nor playing your deck extensively, maybe not. They certainly are good, though.
"What new threats can/can't it handle?" A lot. You're hurting a bit because you got too fancy, upped the curve, and played a chunk of stuff that didn't need to be played. The faster the heroics drop, the more they do. Removal of big stuff is pretty crappy and slow right now which makes heroic do a happy fist pump. For being as cheap as it is, UW heroic streamlined has a pretty darn good abzan matchup, a pretty good red aggro matchup in general... Its good against a lot of things. The only thing that really sticks out hard is that crackling doom is a death sentence. I feel it is pretty well positioned overall. It is not without weaknesses even barring crackling doom but it does an excellent job of being annoying. For one, it borderline laughs in the face of siege rhino.
"What should I get?" Gonna quote this bit here real quick.
"Hello everyone. I've been out of the game a little bit and I saw a build similar to mine going around as what is a pretty good deck for being not so expensive. Seeing as how many deck's mana bases alone cost three time this entire decks worth."
Let's see... Optimal nonland mainboard cost: $20 ish. Probably a little less. 15 ish if you ask your buddy for some spare commons and uncommons. Optimal land cost: $140ish bucks. Probably a little less. This deck has one of the greatest land to nonland cost disparities in standard right now. Really. The mainboard could be accomplished by borderline begging for spare stuff leftover from a dude who drafted a fair bit of the theros block or cracked some boxes. Heck, you could buy a dude a soda for half of it. It is dirt cheap. Most of the cost for an ideal mainboard is just the set of hero of iroas. Personally, I play UW heroic as a blitz deck with a mana curve bordering on boss sligh levels. (cmc 1-2 with less than 18-19 lands last rotation. This one 19-20.) The part where it gets tricky is the consistency. That literally means that the only way to improve the deck from there with the card pool is to improve the land base. Temple of enlightnenment, flooded strand, mana confluence. It is one darn greedy deck and no large amount of money would want to go anywhere but making it more consistent. This is still abysmally cheap compared to a lot of other decks. If you want the absolute greatest bang for your buck, I think boss sligh is the way to go. But here, its just a matter of oiling the deck, streamlining it so you cut the fat to sink in on a very concentrated strategy (a process that costs very little money), then go and improve the mana base (which does cost money). So what do you spend for? Why, you spend for a few cheapo commons and uncommons to go with a pair of flooded strand.
Anyway, faster is better. Lagonna-band trailblazer says hello, walling things, dodging stuff from every standard burn other than stoke before heroic and even dodging stoke after just one to shrugging at bile blight. It can even go turn 1 lagonna, turn 2 ordeal and swing while not being vulnerable to abzan charm yet. Once you start thinking "What happens if my big creature dies?" you begin to compromise the gameplan, slowing the deck down overall. You get big, get in there evasively, draw a bunch of cards, and defend yourself. Hitting ordeal of heliod against rabble red, boss sligh, or whatever aggro deck that probably has issues killing your heroics anyway instantly makes the game very uphill for them. It is even annoying for jeskai aggro as they actually have to stop you. Racing against anything reasonable for you is pretty hard when they start at 20 with a harsher mana base and you at 30. They have to think more about trying to stop you from killing them which is where you want them to be rather than them having the initiative. Play quicker with a more compact build. You'll be glad you did. Piece A goes with piece B. You don't need a bunch of extra side pieces that aren't so individually fitting and should strive to make drawing multiples perfectly welcome. For example, aqueous form is not all that great to play 4 of. I'd play 0-2 because I'd never want to see multiples unless one got blown up. Conversely, I think I'd much rather see multiples of stratus walk which can be anything from evasion to silliness while drawing you a card which is very potent for this kind of snowballish deck. It is also amusing to see looks when you stratus walk the other guy's stormbreath dragon so your obviously white heroic fatty can run under it and beat face.
well Nev, i really appreciate your opinions and filling me in on how the play in this new standard for me is. I will definately take the advice. I used to run the mono-black devotion deck... it dominated. But that deck was basically built for me since everyone was playing it, so in this new standard, building one for me thats my own sort of creation is pretty hard.
I really like the one drop Lagonna-band trailblazer. that you seem like one mean card, and having more one drops in this deck would only make heroic effects happen faster.
Another opinion question, which of these protection spells should be the 4-of in my deck, gods willing, feat of resistance, or ajani's presence. I feel like being able to choose a color in which to be protected from has always been better, but with the strive ability in ajani's presence i can get some nice two-for-one's.
I have the two planeswalkers in there... is it a waste? should i replace it with a cheaper substitute, trade them, and just work on the mana base? Because with how you say the consistency is more key, i would feel as though ajani steadfast is not constistant, it's bullcrap, but not necessary.
What defensive spells you play heavily depends on your meta. Some people play more. Some people play less which I think is usually a mistake (metas do exist where its fine. I just think they're rarer.) I personally play 10 being 4 god's willing, 4 feat of resistance (Ew. I wish we had mizzium skin back. Its a 2 drop which hurts but it is a defensive spell and at least grows them), and 2 Ajani's presence. If in a more controllish meta that likes playing end hostilities, I think I'd swap the numbers of feat of resistance and Ajani's presence or maybe play the full 12.
Anyway, the reason that I play so many feat of resistance stems from the lack of things that indestructibility solves.
Things solved by protection but not indestructibility
Jeskai charm
Abzan charm
Banishing light
Suspension field
Chained to the rocks (more minor but still present)
Utter end
Things not solved by indestructibility but not protection
End hostilities
Other more minor boardwipes that prettymuch mostly in the exact same decks as the ones that have end hostilities.
Elspeth, sun's champion... which is also in the same place.
Deathtouch
Things solved by both
Hero's downfall
Murderouc cut
Sultai charm
A really big crater's claws?
Things solved by neither
Crackling doom
Oh, and protection doubles as an evasion spell if necessary. So there you go.
I personally don't play Ajani because he costs 4 when everything else costs 2 or less. Not bad persay if you're playing a slower heroic but I don't think that I'd want to play slower heroic anyway.
Wow, i think you are the most helpful user i've encountered =]
I will probably post an updated version of this deck and see what you and everyone else may think about it.
Just a couple more ideas, especially with keeping the deck in a budget range for play. There is that counter, stubborn denial in the side board, is it worth main boarding? and when i get finished with this deck.. do i need to keep room for the eidolon of countless battles? i do like he plays a part with the creature, but i never want to pay for the bestow without hero of iroas out... what are your thoughts?
Stubborn denial is necessary in the sideboard if you are running against mardu midrange packing crackling doom. It is your best answer against it.
Here's the list I run for reference. Obviously a bit less budget... but that's once again the land base. There are a few different versions that the deck can play. Some actually do play a couple of eidolon of countless battles. Those are the ones that play helio'd pilgrim with a little bit of a tech package. While those lists have seen success (they aren't wrong. I just like them a little less), they are a bit slower than to my taste. Without the presence of generic sac spells, I think the straight shot version works better. Be aware that I am an extremely greedy player.
UW heroic is a deck that you have to adjust to your meta. You really have to more than most to get your evasion to tick just right while balancing with your lifegain to effectively race. This works for me. It doesn't mean it will work for you. You have to play with it. If Mardu Midrange is prevalent, you may not want to be playing this at all, instead opting to play something that fits better. This version sports a 3 of ordeal of heliod, a little above average for 2 reasons. 1, I see a fair bit of aggro and ordeal is wonderful there. 2. I play 4 mana confluence. That can often hurt. A lot. It gives me the ability to crank my stuff out well and I can save it often by just leaving the confluence up for the prospective defensive spell that I usually don't have to cast. A lot of people play fewer. I value the fixing that much. It probably wouldn't be wrong necessarily to play 1-2 but I like it where it is. Here's the other version roughly for reference in copy/paste glory.
This was a Tom Ross list. As you can see, it has a little heliod's pilgrim toolbox bit. It also plays fewer defensive spells being a bit less all in than it is a beater type bit with toolbox tricks. Playing eidolon of countless battles means that it is fundamentally playing with a different focus though it is using the same mechanics. Yes, this list plays seekers. In many cases, this is very good. I don't because I'm super racy and seeker gets vulnerable to burns due to shrinking back down and most importantly doesn't get the ordeals off as fast. A quickly used ordeal is one that is much less vulnerable. However, it is useful in numerous racy matchups. I can definitely see siding them in the first version or maybe even playing a couple. I don't do it but once again, it might work for you. Poke around. Try different things. UW heroic can definitely work.
Prettymuch. Which type between the first and second depends on your personal taste a lot. Either way, you'll want to adjust your defense package to fit your meta. For example, you'd want to play more defensive spells if you're running into a lot of midrange and control. If seeing lots of aggro and having trouble racing them, you might want to add in a 4th ordeal and stuff to stunt them in the race. If running into a lot of thoughtseize, you might want to play 16 or even 17 creatures instead of 15. If running into issues hitting UW due to mana base issues, maybe you want to play some akroan skyguard over battlewise hoplite. I personally don't because battlewise exits burn range and whatnot much more surely and the scry is huge but it does cost UW and not 1W. Things like this. You have to tweak and make it work for you. And if it isn't working for you, its time to retool and figure out how to do it or search for something that fits you and your meta more.
Honestly the deck is pretty much complete. I wouldn't recommend changing much of it unless you intend on making it a different deck entirely.
but if you're intent on putting more money into it then Flooded Strands seem like the only realistic upgrade. Anything else you put into it would be more of a lateral move in power rather than a strict upgrade.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
There are a few small adjustments that I think it could benefit from. Liiiike a lower aqueous form count due to them being bad in tandem, no Ajani steadfast because of the low curve, a lower eidolon count for mana cost reasons once again, and a higher cantrip count if insisting on the full 4 seekers. The addition of lagonna-band... But yeah. Its really the mana base that makes the biggest difference.
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4 HERO OF IROAS
4 FAVORED HOPLITE
4 EIODOLON OF COUNTLESS BATTLES
4 SEEKER OF THE WAY
2 AJANI STEADFAST
2 ORDEAL OF HELIOD
4 ORDEAL OF THASSA
4 GODS WILLING
2 AJANI'S PRESENCE
4 AQUEOUS FORM
2 FEAT OF RESISTANCE
3 TRANQUIL COVE
1 MANA CONFLUENCE
3 ISLAND
9 PLAINS
SIDE:
2 FEAT OF RESISTANCE
2 DEICIDE
2 SUSPENSION FIELD
4 STUBBORN DENIAL
2 GLARE OF HERESY
3 SINGING BELL STRIKE
Hello everyone. I've been out of the game a little bit and I saw a build similar to mine going around as what is a pretty good deck for being not so expensive. Seeing as how many deck's mana bases alone cost three time this entire decks worth.
I have played this deck only like three times and it was against a FNM winning rakdos deck from about 7 months ago, maybe. So what i am trying to find out... with this deck, and with 30 - 40 more dollars to spend:
*what should i get? or if i should get anything?
*What are the new relevant threats that this deck could handle in the new khans of tahkir standard?
*What new threats cant it handle?
*Would it just be worth it to fork over the cash for the fetch lands?
*Am i dreaming that a non-3-colored deck can dominate it any relevant standard?
I Like the Phalanx Leader, i think it may find an entry to the deck...
But like i said, i have only played this deck a handful of times and i am trying to get this thing ready for my first FNM in a loooooong time.
Thanks for reading .
Just for reference this is what it started out as... and i am also curious to knw if maybe this way was a buit better?
4 hero of iroas
4 Battlewise Hoplite
4 favored hoplite
4 seeker nof the way
4 aquious form
4 gods willing
4 definant strike
2 stratus walk
4 ordeal of thasa
2 ajanis presence
8 planis
4 tranquil cove
2 hopeful eidion
2 erase
2 glare of heresay
4 stubborn denial
3 singing bell strike
2 suspenion field
Made by me, if you ever need one made.
*what should i get? or if i should get anything?
*What are the new relevant threats that this deck could handle in the new khans of tahkir standard?
*What new threats cant it handle?
*Would it just be worth it to fork over the cash for the fetch lands?
*Am i dreaming that a non-3-colored deck can dominate it any relevant standard?
These are some ironic questions. Very ironic.
"Am I dreaming that a non-3 colored deck can dominate any relevant standard?" Khans is debatable but all you have to do is look back not too long ago when mono black devotion was wrecking. Mono blue devotion had its limelight time too. RDW of some varieties has been in standard with some level of prevalence since who knows how far back and is still present and performing pretty well. Those are mono colored decks. GR monsters was a thing last rotation. Green devotion is a thing in this standard still. Whether a non-3 colored deck will dominate right now? Probably not since Khans was a wedge set with some nice goodies but that will change with time.
"Would it be worth it to just fork over the cash for the fetch lands?" Depends. If you're doing it to have them for later, you bet. If you're trying to do a bang for your buck spend and don't plan on ever liquidating them nor playing your deck extensively, maybe not. They certainly are good, though.
"What new threats can/can't it handle?" A lot. You're hurting a bit because you got too fancy, upped the curve, and played a chunk of stuff that didn't need to be played. The faster the heroics drop, the more they do. Removal of big stuff is pretty crappy and slow right now which makes heroic do a happy fist pump. For being as cheap as it is, UW heroic streamlined has a pretty darn good abzan matchup, a pretty good red aggro matchup in general... Its good against a lot of things. The only thing that really sticks out hard is that crackling doom is a death sentence. I feel it is pretty well positioned overall. It is not without weaknesses even barring crackling doom but it does an excellent job of being annoying. For one, it borderline laughs in the face of siege rhino.
"What should I get?" Gonna quote this bit here real quick.
"Hello everyone. I've been out of the game a little bit and I saw a build similar to mine going around as what is a pretty good deck for being not so expensive. Seeing as how many deck's mana bases alone cost three time this entire decks worth."
Let's see... Optimal nonland mainboard cost: $20 ish. Probably a little less. 15 ish if you ask your buddy for some spare commons and uncommons. Optimal land cost: $140ish bucks. Probably a little less. This deck has one of the greatest land to nonland cost disparities in standard right now. Really. The mainboard could be accomplished by borderline begging for spare stuff leftover from a dude who drafted a fair bit of the theros block or cracked some boxes. Heck, you could buy a dude a soda for half of it. It is dirt cheap. Most of the cost for an ideal mainboard is just the set of hero of iroas. Personally, I play UW heroic as a blitz deck with a mana curve bordering on boss sligh levels. (cmc 1-2 with less than 18-19 lands last rotation. This one 19-20.) The part where it gets tricky is the consistency. That literally means that the only way to improve the deck from there with the card pool is to improve the land base. Temple of enlightnenment, flooded strand, mana confluence. It is one darn greedy deck and no large amount of money would want to go anywhere but making it more consistent. This is still abysmally cheap compared to a lot of other decks. If you want the absolute greatest bang for your buck, I think boss sligh is the way to go. But here, its just a matter of oiling the deck, streamlining it so you cut the fat to sink in on a very concentrated strategy (a process that costs very little money), then go and improve the mana base (which does cost money). So what do you spend for? Why, you spend for a few cheapo commons and uncommons to go with a pair of flooded strand.
Anyway, faster is better. Lagonna-band trailblazer says hello, walling things, dodging stuff from every standard burn other than stoke before heroic and even dodging stoke after just one to shrugging at bile blight. It can even go turn 1 lagonna, turn 2 ordeal and swing while not being vulnerable to abzan charm yet. Once you start thinking "What happens if my big creature dies?" you begin to compromise the gameplan, slowing the deck down overall. You get big, get in there evasively, draw a bunch of cards, and defend yourself. Hitting ordeal of heliod against rabble red, boss sligh, or whatever aggro deck that probably has issues killing your heroics anyway instantly makes the game very uphill for them. It is even annoying for jeskai aggro as they actually have to stop you. Racing against anything reasonable for you is pretty hard when they start at 20 with a harsher mana base and you at 30. They have to think more about trying to stop you from killing them which is where you want them to be rather than them having the initiative. Play quicker with a more compact build. You'll be glad you did. Piece A goes with piece B. You don't need a bunch of extra side pieces that aren't so individually fitting and should strive to make drawing multiples perfectly welcome. For example, aqueous form is not all that great to play 4 of. I'd play 0-2 because I'd never want to see multiples unless one got blown up. Conversely, I think I'd much rather see multiples of stratus walk which can be anything from evasion to silliness while drawing you a card which is very potent for this kind of snowballish deck. It is also amusing to see looks when you stratus walk the other guy's stormbreath dragon so your obviously white heroic fatty can run under it and beat face.
I really like the one drop Lagonna-band trailblazer. that you seem like one mean card, and having more one drops in this deck would only make heroic effects happen faster.
Another opinion question, which of these protection spells should be the 4-of in my deck, gods willing, feat of resistance, or ajani's presence. I feel like being able to choose a color in which to be protected from has always been better, but with the strive ability in ajani's presence i can get some nice two-for-one's.
I have the two planeswalkers in there... is it a waste? should i replace it with a cheaper substitute, trade them, and just work on the mana base? Because with how you say the consistency is more key, i would feel as though ajani steadfast is not constistant, it's bullcrap, but not necessary.
Made by me, if you ever need one made.
Anyway, the reason that I play so many feat of resistance stems from the lack of things that indestructibility solves.
Things solved by protection but not indestructibility
Jeskai charm
Abzan charm
Banishing light
Suspension field
Chained to the rocks (more minor but still present)
Utter end
Things not solved by indestructibility but not protection
End hostilities
Other more minor boardwipes that prettymuch mostly in the exact same decks as the ones that have end hostilities.
Elspeth, sun's champion... which is also in the same place.
Deathtouch
Things solved by both
Hero's downfall
Murderouc cut
Sultai charm
A really big crater's claws?
Things solved by neither
Crackling doom
Oh, and protection doubles as an evasion spell if necessary. So there you go.
I personally don't play Ajani because he costs 4 when everything else costs 2 or less. Not bad persay if you're playing a slower heroic but I don't think that I'd want to play slower heroic anyway.
I will probably post an updated version of this deck and see what you and everyone else may think about it.
Just a couple more ideas, especially with keeping the deck in a budget range for play. There is that counter, stubborn denial in the side board, is it worth main boarding? and when i get finished with this deck.. do i need to keep room for the eidolon of countless battles? i do like he plays a part with the creature, but i never want to pay for the bestow without hero of iroas out... what are your thoughts?
Made by me, if you ever need one made.
Here's the list I run for reference. Obviously a bit less budget... but that's once again the land base. There are a few different versions that the deck can play. Some actually do play a couple of eidolon of countless battles. Those are the ones that play helio'd pilgrim with a little bit of a tech package. While those lists have seen success (they aren't wrong. I just like them a little less), they are a bit slower than to my taste. Without the presence of generic sac spells, I think the straight shot version works better. Be aware that I am an extremely greedy player.
4 lagonna-band trailblazer
4 hero of iroas
3 battlewise hoplite
4 ordeal of thassa
3 ordeal of heliod
4 stratus walk
1 aqueous form
4 feat of resistance
2 Ajani's presence
3 defiant strike
4 temple of enlightenment
4 flooded strand
4 mana confluence
2 island
6 plains
UW heroic is a deck that you have to adjust to your meta. You really have to more than most to get your evasion to tick just right while balancing with your lifegain to effectively race. This works for me. It doesn't mean it will work for you. You have to play with it. If Mardu Midrange is prevalent, you may not want to be playing this at all, instead opting to play something that fits better. This version sports a 3 of ordeal of heliod, a little above average for 2 reasons. 1, I see a fair bit of aggro and ordeal is wonderful there. 2. I play 4 mana confluence. That can often hurt. A lot. It gives me the ability to crank my stuff out well and I can save it often by just leaving the confluence up for the prospective defensive spell that I usually don't have to cast. A lot of people play fewer. I value the fixing that much. It probably wouldn't be wrong necessarily to play 1-2 but I like it where it is. Here's the other version roughly for reference in copy/paste glory.
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Tranquil Cove
1 Mana Confluence
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Hero of Iroas
4 Battlewise Hoplite
3 Heliod's Pilgrim
3 Seeker of the Way
2 Eidolon of Countless Battles
4 Defiant Strike
4 Gods Willing
2 Feat of Resistance
1 Aqueous Form
1 Stratus Walk
1 Singing Bell Strike
1 Ordeal of Heliod
1 Seeker of the Way
1 Aqueous Form
1 Ordeal of Heliod
2 Lagonna-Band Elder
2 Erase
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Ajani's Presence
2 Treasure Cruise
This was a Tom Ross list. As you can see, it has a little heliod's pilgrim toolbox bit. It also plays fewer defensive spells being a bit less all in than it is a beater type bit with toolbox tricks. Playing eidolon of countless battles means that it is fundamentally playing with a different focus though it is using the same mechanics. Yes, this list plays seekers. In many cases, this is very good. I don't because I'm super racy and seeker gets vulnerable to burns due to shrinking back down and most importantly doesn't get the ordeals off as fast. A quickly used ordeal is one that is much less vulnerable. However, it is useful in numerous racy matchups. I can definitely see siding them in the first version or maybe even playing a couple. I don't do it but once again, it might work for you. Poke around. Try different things. UW heroic can definitely work.
I am definitely going to use those planes walkers as trade-foder for lands then, though.
Made by me, if you ever need one made.
but if you're intent on putting more money into it then Flooded Strands seem like the only realistic upgrade. Anything else you put into it would be more of a lateral move in power rather than a strict upgrade.