Do you think Immortal Servitude could be a 1-of main deck? Against Control or other decks that take a while to win, a late game Immortal Servitude for 1 could turn the game around massively, especially after a board wipe.
I don't think Immortal Servitude is where we want to be. In order to be efficient we need to bring at least 2 creatures back, and the most common cast will be casting it for x=1 and getting back 2 1-drops. Occasionally we'll have a weird draw where we're on the play and play 3 1-drops on turn 1 and 2, something on turn 3, they board wipe t3/4, and we bring back all 3 of our 1-drops directly after, but that is neither common nor something we want to strive for. It's much more common for our opponents to be spot removing our threats, so waiting until we have 2+ creatures in the graveyard to cast an already-expensive spell is just too slow. Just run Rootborn Defenses instead. I personally splash black in my list so I have access to Xathrid Necromancer and thoughtseize, but the latter is not budget, and splashing a color in aggro is NEVER budget.
@Sygerrik:
On heroic, I can't really give any suggestions. I've brewed some interesting builds that are relatively resilient and have some extremely explosive plays, but I haven't playtested and generally am not an expert on the archetype. Wish I could be more helpful here.
On Spear, I think we want to be running it if we have Brimaz. Spear+Brimaz is a serious force to be reckoned with. The main point against spear is that it encourages overextending with 1-drops, which we don't want to do. I think it's better in a slightly slower but more resilient decklist with more Brimaz and less 1-drops.
@Sygerrik:
On heroic, I can't really give any suggestions. I've brewed some interesting builds that are relatively resilient and have some extremely explosive plays, but I haven't playtested and generally am not an expert on the archetype. Wish I could be more helpful here.
On Spear, I think we want to be running it if we have Brimaz. Spear+Brimaz is a serious force to be reckoned with. The main point against spear is that it encourages overextending with 1-drops, which we don't want to do. I think it's better in a slightly slower but more resilient decklist with more Brimaz and less 1-drops.
The speed of this deck is really where I'm unsure. To be honest, I'd prefer to just -2 Skyjek +2 Brimaz maindeck, maybe add the 4th Fortify (-1 Dryad Militant?) and add Revoke Existence to the board. I prefer monocolored because I can add Mutavaults (of course it won't be budget then) without boning my manabase, but even without them my W/L ratio with the deck is through the roof. The trouble comes with Bile Blight/Drown in Sorrows; I feel like if those cards are as common as I suspect they will be, I'll be plowing forward turns 1-3 and then just run out of steam when they come down and lose to Demon, Pack Rat + friends. What do you think? Should I try to get more 2-toughness beaters in that survive with Spear down?
They won't be that common. There are too many awesome midrange decks right now like Gr midrange--not to mention that they aren't very good in the mirror matchup for MBD. They'll mostly be in sideboard. The main thing that Drown in Sorrows does for this archetype is make 4-of Fortify basically a necessity (at least in the 75). It also makes Judge's Familiar amazing.
They may be common in your LGS since your local meta may not necessarily reflect the overall scene. It'd depend on the aggro midrange split. But unless there are a ton of stubborn aggro players, they'll quickly get moved to the side. After all, only the most stubborn are going to keep playing aggro en masse with 4 drowns and 4 blights mainboarded. Buuuut if they do, I'd just lol and start playing a hex deck for a bit. In all seriousness, they might end up getting played a lot but there's a pretty good chance it'll balance itself out as people adjust to make them less good. I wouldn't supremely worry though you may wish to poke around ahead of time and sty to scout out the reality of the situation just in case you'd be running into that for a few weeks.
What do you folks think about Silence? In a control-heavy LGS meta, it seems to be a massive tempo gain, as azorius control depends so much on turn 3/4 to shutdown aggro decks. I splash red for Boros Charms right now, but I could easily see Silence being more effective and efficient in stopping Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, and Jace, Architect of Thought for a turn, giving you the time you need to close out. I'm going to have it in my sideboard this week I believe, so by Friday I should know how good it does.
If you're heavy UW control, go for it. Its great. Very importantly, if you're on the play, you can play 3-4 things on the first 3 turns and turn 1 silence into fortify which is absolutely huge.
That's assuming no Azorius Charm on Turn 4 but with a protection spell you have a good chance despite that.
And it helps on Drown in Sorrow for those pesky mono-black opponents.
Nah. I would hold the silence for turn 4. If you're on the play, it'd look like this.
Turn 1 soldier
Turn 2 captain (18)
Turn 3 skyjek and soldier (14)
Turn 4 silence. Now there's no more silliness. Fortify and they're at -6. If they charmed or sphered the captain, it'd be better to not silence right away. Instead, it'd look like this.
Turn 1 soldier
Turn 2 captain (18)
Turn 3 skyjek and soldier. Captain gets charmed or sphered. (16)
Turn 4 swing and fortify (3) And you silence them on their upkeep to shut down supreme verdict.
I don't really like Silence in this, because it doesn't help us count to 20. That's really my only objection to it-- it doesn't win you the game, it just makes it harder for them to win. What do I drop for Silence? Spear closes out games by randomly adding 4-6 power to our board, Brave swings us in past blockers, Fortify we all know is boss, and pretty much everything else is creatures.
Made this deck last-second tonight, I have to say I was impressed. I bought everything at the shop and ended up spending about 40$ (I know the owner well) but couldn't find Judge's Familiar or Boros Elite since good uncommons are always impossible to find last second in my area.
I have to say before anything else
A)This deck HAS to sideboard Fiendslayer Paladin to deal with MBD and Gruul, even without sweeps both decks have killer spot removal and he definitely helps you widen the gap.
B)Spirit of the Labyrinth is better than Daring Skyjek in my version, and probably in all versions. This slows down monoUas well as monoBand the fact that it's an enchantment boosts Ethereal Armor, which I think is a great addition to the deck, it's not tough to see it giving a +3 bonus. The first strike alone really should be enough incentive, and if you're mainboarding brave the elements that's only even more reason to since you can avoid 2-4-1's
C)Eidolon of Countless battles gets big fast, and should always be played as an aura, it won me a few games. It's fit to mention that it's a crappy top deck unless you can trade for some mutavaults, and even then... it's a 2/2. He's great for budget, but 2 is plenty because you really only want to see one.
I went 6-6, gave the last match to my opponent because IDGAF about DCI scores. Here's what I would play if I had the cards, I think Eidolon of Countless Battles works instead of Brimaz for budget but brimaz is better for obvious reasons. Great deck to take to FNM and easy to pilot, thanks for the thread, wouldn't have peiced anything worth a crap without reading up on all of your results. I'm going to test this online and see where I get.
I disagree about spirit and skyjek. Skyjek has semi-evasion under the right conditions. Spirit of the labyrith doesn't slow that many things down. Mono blue, it stops bident till they use it to make you swing and block with their frostburn weird to get rid of the issue. Mono black, you don't stop the first connections, only the second. Remember that they can still draw one card per turn on your turn as well as yours. Against UWx control, you shut off sphinx's rev... but its a creature that's destined to die. I'd rather shore up my midrange matchups with skyjek and have a small plus against more aggro than those more minor bonuses. Plus you play cavalry pegasus.
Nev, you're fantastic. I haven't been too interested in standard these past few weeks, so I haven't kept this thread tidy whatsoever, but you're always discussing this archetype, which is awesome. I'm still entirely convinced that this is the most competitive budget archetype by far.
Alright! Time to comment.
On Skyjek and Spirit of the Labyrinth;
I am not convinced in any way that Spirit of the Labyrinth is better than Skyjek, and this is coming from someone that does not like Skyjek at all. He's a necessary evil at this point. The problem with Spirit of the Labyrinth is simple; we want to kill our opponent before turn 5-6, before they start drawing cards. If you're at the point when they can start to draw a ton of cards (ie: it's turn 5-6+), it's already over. Spirit of the Labyrinth is most effective against only two cards right now: Underworld Connections, and Sphinx's Revelation, but considering how horribly weak both of these cards are against our deck anyway, we have literally no reason to not use Skyjek instead. Sure, it's an enchantment creature, but there's no reason to have an enchantment subtheme when this deck is only good because of its amazing consistency (ie: why ruin it with conditional cards like Hopeful Eidolon and Ethereal Armor?).
It is possible that there is some totally enchantment-themed mono white deck that is semi-competitive, but I highly doubt it's a fortify-based aggro deck.
On silence: copy paste what Nev, said he's right. Silence is incredibly strong against U/W control, and I could even see an argument for it against MBD and Esper (though it's substantially weaker against Esper when compared to U/W.
The second underworld connections only. And I don't think I'd board it against mono black... though I suppose I can see the value in staving off a merchant for a turn.
I went 4-1 (3rd out of 16-18ish people) with the following deck on Friday. I did not get to test out Silence due to control being out of favor after this latest set in my LGS. I beat 2 mono-red aggro decks (with some difficulty), 1 Bant mid-range deck and 1 Golgari mid-range deck (quite easily). I lost a near-mirror match to someone playing 4 Brimaz, King of Oreskos and got blown out by Profit // Loss.
I'm just gonna do a card-by-card analysis of your deck. First, a playset of imposing sovereign is a godsend against almost every non-control matchup. It allows us to push through a ton of damage. Banisher Priest is basically in the same boat; it removes their blockers/big dudes and gives us a solid 2/2 body--you need a playset of both of these. On to Frontline Medic. This dude is interesting, but since we need to cut some dudes and we're already adding +2 Banisher priest in the 3 slot, it makes sense to me to cut him. The weakest cards in the deck are probably shared between Daring Skyjek and Dyrad militant, so cut 1 of each or something maybe? Possibly the spear? Beyond that, try your best to get your hands on shocks and temples; mountains are extremely weak in this deck as they don't allow a turn 2 precinct captain or turn 2 double 1-drop.
As for Dryad Militant, yeah it's the weakest one drop, but having 12 one drops is really where I want to be, and Daring Skyjek is 3 power, which is handy.
Thanks Clown for posting this. I've been running the deck on MTGO for a while now and have had good success with it. Any thought to running Cavalry Pegasus over Daring Skyjek? I've tried both (2 Skyjeks or 2 Pegasus). I found that 4 Pegasus was too much. It seemed to really be up in the air. You don't want multiple Cavalry Pegasus on the board, but when he does hit the board it is an alternate early win condition to Brave/Fortify. On the flip side having multiple Skyjeks on the board is a good thing as they can put out a ton of damage. If you were going to run either 2 skyjeks or 2 cavalry pegasus and 2 spears which would you choose?
I like my skyjeks but it does't work for everyone. I skip boros elite, one of the big reasons I don't like pegasus but I guess some people do like it. I want maximum consistency from my creatures and just don't feel that cavalry pegasus gives that. I'd sooner run 16 to 20 one drops, a few 2 drops, and the tech spells in fortify and brave than play cavalry pegasus. I just don't feel it has the blindsiding power I'd want it to have, being less than self sufficient. Let's compare to our other 2 drops. Precinct captain which can run away with the game. Imposing sovereign of the instant and lasting value. For me, daring skyjek which gets evasive pretty fast and acts as a removal magnet for slower decks based on being a 3 power creature and gets to be good friends with Ajani. Even those who go with azorius arrester get that value right off. I dunno. I don't like the pegasus. It isn't inherently a bad card but it is more needy than I prefer.
Pegasus would be a great 2 or 3 of in a green-heavy meta to avoid problematic combat creatures like Sylvan Caryatid and Kalonian Tusker. Otherwise I think Skyjek is better, sine we just want damage on-board. So unless mono green or something because the top deck, I'd assume we just run Skyjek instead. Pegasus is also pretty bad if, as Nev previously hinted at, you're running Ajani. We really like Skyjek when we have Ajani.
Nightveil specter is the other biggie with the skyjek. Lol. Except that I'm totally happy to trade. In the tusker case, it kind of depends but unless we're going for the alpha strike, I'm totally fine with that trade. With witchstalker, its a no brainer good trade unless you're preserving it to win right away or set up something like an all flying battalion group to push.
I am honestly liking this WW deck, Good job Clownstabber! I just started MTG about a month of so ago, would you mind reviewing my deck for me if possible? All of you seem to have great insights and I dont. Tks!
Red Deck Wins
Modern
Storm
@Sygerrik:
On heroic, I can't really give any suggestions. I've brewed some interesting builds that are relatively resilient and have some extremely explosive plays, but I haven't playtested and generally am not an expert on the archetype. Wish I could be more helpful here.
On Spear, I think we want to be running it if we have Brimaz. Spear+Brimaz is a serious force to be reckoned with. The main point against spear is that it encourages overextending with 1-drops, which we don't want to do. I think it's better in a slightly slower but more resilient decklist with more Brimaz and less 1-drops.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
The speed of this deck is really where I'm unsure. To be honest, I'd prefer to just -2 Skyjek +2 Brimaz maindeck, maybe add the 4th Fortify (-1 Dryad Militant?) and add Revoke Existence to the board. I prefer monocolored because I can add Mutavaults (of course it won't be budget then) without boning my manabase, but even without them my W/L ratio with the deck is through the roof. The trouble comes with Bile Blight/Drown in Sorrows; I feel like if those cards are as common as I suspect they will be, I'll be plowing forward turns 1-3 and then just run out of steam when they come down and lose to Demon, Pack Rat + friends. What do you think? Should I try to get more 2-toughness beaters in that survive with Spear down?
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
Turn 1: Soldier of the Pantheon
Turn 2: Daring Skyjek Opponent at 18
Turn 3: Precinct Captain / Silence Opponent at 13
Turn 4: Fortify Opponent at 0
That's assuming no Azorius Charm on Turn 4 but with a protection spell you have a good chance despite that.
And it helps on Drown in Sorrow for those pesky mono-black opponents.
Turn 1 soldier
Turn 2 captain (18)
Turn 3 skyjek and soldier (14)
Turn 4 silence. Now there's no more silliness. Fortify and they're at -6. If they charmed or sphered the captain, it'd be better to not silence right away. Instead, it'd look like this.
Turn 1 soldier
Turn 2 captain (18)
Turn 3 skyjek and soldier. Captain gets charmed or sphered. (16)
Turn 4 swing and fortify (3) And you silence them on their upkeep to shut down supreme verdict.
Just play your silence at the appropriate time.
21 Plains
// Creatures
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Dryad Militant
4x Precinct Captain
3x Imposing Sovereign
4x Banisher Priest
2x Cavalry Pegasus
4x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Hopeful Eidolon
3x Eidolon of Countless Battles
3x Fortify
2x Spear of Heliod
3x Ethereal Armor
4x Brave the Elements
2x Glare of Heresy
2x Last Breath
3x Celestial Flare
1x Revoke Existence
Made this deck last-second tonight, I have to say I was impressed. I bought everything at the shop and ended up spending about 40$ (I know the owner well) but couldn't find Judge's Familiar or Boros Elite since good uncommons are always impossible to find last second in my area.
I have to say before anything else
A)This deck HAS to sideboard Fiendslayer Paladin to deal with MBD and Gruul, even without sweeps both decks have killer spot removal and he definitely helps you widen the gap.
B)Spirit of the Labyrinth is better than Daring Skyjek in my version, and probably in all versions. This slows down monoUas well as monoBand the fact that it's an enchantment boosts Ethereal Armor, which I think is a great addition to the deck, it's not tough to see it giving a +3 bonus. The first strike alone really should be enough incentive, and if you're mainboarding brave the elements that's only even more reason to since you can avoid 2-4-1's
C)Eidolon of Countless battles gets big fast, and should always be played as an aura, it won me a few games. It's fit to mention that it's a crappy top deck unless you can trade for some mutavaults, and even then... it's a 2/2. He's great for budget, but 2 is plenty because you really only want to see one.
I went 6-6, gave the last match to my opponent because IDGAF about DCI scores. Here's what I would play if I had the cards, I think Eidolon of Countless Battles works instead of Brimaz for budget but brimaz is better for obvious reasons. Great deck to take to FNM and easy to pilot, thanks for the thread, wouldn't have peiced anything worth a crap without reading up on all of your results. I'm going to test this online and see where I get.
20x Plains
2x Mutavault
// Creatures
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
3x Dryad Militant
4x Precinct Captain
4x Imposing Sovereign
4x Banisher Priest
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Boros Elite
4x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Spear of Heliod
2x Brave the Elements
3x Fortify
2x Brave the Elements
4x Fiendslayer Paladin
3x Acolyte's Reward
3x Keening Apparition
3x Rootborn Defenses
Alright! Time to comment.
On Skyjek and Spirit of the Labyrinth;
I am not convinced in any way that Spirit of the Labyrinth is better than Skyjek, and this is coming from someone that does not like Skyjek at all. He's a necessary evil at this point. The problem with Spirit of the Labyrinth is simple; we want to kill our opponent before turn 5-6, before they start drawing cards. If you're at the point when they can start to draw a ton of cards (ie: it's turn 5-6+), it's already over. Spirit of the Labyrinth is most effective against only two cards right now: Underworld Connections, and Sphinx's Revelation, but considering how horribly weak both of these cards are against our deck anyway, we have literally no reason to not use Skyjek instead. Sure, it's an enchantment creature, but there's no reason to have an enchantment subtheme when this deck is only good because of its amazing consistency (ie: why ruin it with conditional cards like Hopeful Eidolon and Ethereal Armor?).
It is possible that there is some totally enchantment-themed mono white deck that is semi-competitive, but I highly doubt it's a fortify-based aggro deck.
On silence: copy paste what Nev, said he's right. Silence is incredibly strong against U/W control, and I could even see an argument for it against MBD and Esper (though it's substantially weaker against Esper when compared to U/W.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
1. Imposing Sovereign is killer against aggro and mid-range creature decks. +1 or 2 at least.
2. Gods Willing saved me against mono-red aggro.
3. Frontline Medic was only semi-useful. Eidolon of Countless Battles is looking better. Spear of Heliod...meh. I think I'd rather have the fourth Fortify as it's the only thing I can find that protects against Profit // Loss and Golgari Charm at instant speed except perhaps Legion's Initiative.
4. Was not able to use a large part of my sideboard due to no Blood Baron of Vizkopa or Obzedat, Ghost Council sightings and only one God encountered, (Nylea) which did not impact the board since I exiled their devotion enabler.
5. Warleader's Helix is definitely out of there.
4 Boros Elite
4 Dryad Militant
4 Daring Skyjek
4 Precinct Captain
2 Imposing Sovereign
2 Frontline Medic
2 Banisher Priest
1 Spear of Heliod
4 Brave the Elements
4 Boros Charm
3 Fortify
1 Temple of Triumph
16 Plains
4 Mountains
3 Revoke Existence
3 Renounce the Guilds
2 Gods Willing
2 Banisher Priest
3 Silence
2 Warleader's Helix
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
What are your thoughts on Eidolon of Countless Battles?
As for Dryad Militant, yeah it's the weakest one drop, but having 12 one drops is really where I want to be, and Daring Skyjek is 3 power, which is handy.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-forum-standard/545318-upgrading-theros-event-deck