He never said that SV was counterable. He said that Brave the elements "counters" AOG. However, we can also play "counters" to SV too though he's right that it isn't such a paramount concern. The "counter" in question would be rootborn defenses.
I really appreciate the feedback robokevin. I like the streamlined sideboard. When do you side in Fiendslayer paladin? I've been running such a sparse sideboard because I find it already extremely difficult to make cuts from the maindeck (except daring skyjek... he always goes basically).
I am still making changes ... will post a new decklist soon.
I initially thought I "had" to play fiendslayer, because with my other deck (black/red aggro), he totally kills me.
But, black/red aggro isn't so big in the field. Usually it's red with white, in which case they will just chain him to the rocks, and the black decks will run bigger range stuff, and desecration demon kind of hoses him.
So, I think he is not as good as I thought he was. I just see him do a lot of work when I play vs him with my black/red deck. But I'm not seeing that deck very much.
And I certainly agree. It is difficult to sideboard more than 4 cards in this deck. I usually find myself taking out the skyjeks, a fortify, a spear, and maybe a one drop or a banisher priest.
I've almost made my money back with this deck already. I won 2 MTGO standard tournaments, netting 18 tix. And I bought the whole thing for around 20 tix.
I am still making changes ... will post a new decklist soon.
I initially thought I "had" to play fiendslayer, because with my other deck (black/red aggro), he totally kills me.
But, black/red aggro isn't so big in the field. Usually it's red with white, in which case they will just chain him to the rocks, and the black decks will run bigger range stuff, and desecration demon kind of hoses him.
So, I think he is not as good as I thought he was. I just see him do a lot of work when I play vs him with my black/red deck. But I'm not seeing that deck very much.
And I certainly agree. It is difficult to sideboard more than 4 cards in this deck. I usually find myself taking out the skyjeks, a fortify, a spear, and maybe a one drop or a banisher priest.
I've almost made my money back with this deck already. I won 2 MTGO standard tournaments, netting 18 tix. And I bought the whole thing for around 20 tix.
Awesome man! Glad you're getting good results. I'm currently switching over to W/b to splash for Orzhov Charm and Xathrid Necromancer in the maindeck, with the added benefit of Thoughtseize, doom blades, and all the other good stuff that black gives. Obviously i'm not running a "budget" version, but the cards will all retain their value minus Temple of Silence.
With so many cheap creatures, what's your opinion on Immortal Servitude?
It's a pretty funny card, and I fell in love with it as soon as I saw it. That being said, I can't really assess its value. I think it'd be a bit weak unless we could up our 1-drops to 20 in total. Too often it wouldn't bring back enough creatures to be worth it, I think. That being said, I'm not sure!
That's kind of what I'm thinking. Debating between Orzhov and Boros. Lightning Strikes and Boros Charms. Kind of like the old Type 1.X PT Jank deck.
Orzhov gets more staying power and Boros gets more reach. Both seem to be good decks. We lose a little bit of reach by dropping fortify, so red seems logical, but the anti-wrath capabilities of the Xathrid are very tempting.
The removal that black offers is more tempting because of the prevelance of Master of Waves.
I _really_ don't like the idea of temples coming into play tapped, but they may be a neccessary evil. Will probably need to run 22-23 lands then.
Should be plenty "budget" for me still, as I already own the Xathrids and Thoughtseizes from my Rakdos deck. Still kicking the can on the Mutavaults though ... great card just don't want to drop $100 on something that may not be standard-legal soon.
That's kind of what I'm thinking. Debating between Orzhov and Boros. Lightning Strikes and Boros Charms. Kind of like the old Type 1.X PT Jank deck.
Orzhov gets more staying power and Boros gets more reach. Both seem to be good decks. We lose a little bit of reach by dropping fortify, so red seems logical, but the anti-wrath capabilities of the Xathrid are very tempting.
The removal that black offers is more tempting because of the prevelance of Master of Waves.
I _really_ don't like the idea of temples coming into play tapped, but they may be a neccessary evil. Will probably need to run 22-23 lands then.
Should be plenty "budget" for me still, as I already own the Xathrids and Thoughtseizes from my Rakdos deck. Still kicking the can on the Mutavaults though ... great card just don't want to drop $100 on something that may not be standard-legal soon.
I did some solitairing with orzhov--which I was SUPER excited about trying--and I hated it. The consistency we lose from splashing black with ETBT lands is crippling from what i've seen. Also, Fortify is just... too insane, man. I don't know what else to say. It's the best card in the deck. I wanted to splash black for the amazing sideboard that we get, but I really don't think it's worth the blow to our g1 potential.
Oh, and about mutavault... Since we're running the 16 1-drop version of white weenie, they aren't an auto-4-of. I think 2 of would be the most optimal number right now. I'm with you though, not gonna shell out that kind of dough for a land that marginally improves the deck.
Ajani is good in this build. Just don't go crazy on it. I like 1. Some people like 2. A few play 3 though I think that's too many. But I think most would agree that its good.
I've had a ton of success with a white weenie shell in standard as of late. It is just as aggressive as red deck wins, but much more dependable.
What does everyone think of ajani in the deck? I'm running 22 lands, and even then I always seems to be stuck on two lands.
Ajani is great. I only run 21 lands and I find that to be perfectly good. But yeah, Ajani is great. I only run one, and I find that to be enough. Fortify is our main wincon.
Personally with this build, I just think the only possible time that Ajani is better than spear is turn 3 versus another aggro deck. And even then he's just marginally better than spear. If we didn't have 16 one drops and precinct captain thing going then I would probably pick Ajani, but spear is so strong with so many dudes.
Spear can be a straight up win con verse many midrange decks, and helps you out in combat verse other aggro decks, and helps you race control or do more damage without overextending into a wrath.
I wish he were a realistic bomb card verse control but there is just so much removal in this environment, he's not going to last the 4-5 turns you need for his ult.
Here's a new version that I am trying:
(I didn't like the color splash so much either, Clownstabber. It was great sometimes, but I'm after consistency first and foremost. I know it's fashionable but I just liked mono white better.)
SB is still up in the air but it def includes renounce the guilds (for blood baron OR detention sphere), pithing needle, and rootborn defenses. And again, it's really hard to decide what to side out.
(option for budget: drop Mutavaults for 3 plains and 1 Imposing Sovereign. But i listed the mutavaults because I figure some people may have them already, even though they want to cheap out on the rest of the deck. It's really not much worse without the mutavaults, they're simply an insurance policy against SV and AoTG.)
So yeah no fortify, even after we just talked about how amazing it is. After finding Path of Bravery (I still don't know all of the new cards lol), I just had to make room for it. And having 4 3-drops that can +1/+1 my guys, I just can't find a place for fortify.
With the +1/+1 effects, Daring Skyjek is a better play than Imposing Sovereign. I see Frostburn Weird played pretty often and he's a major staller for this deck, and turn 2 skyjek turn 3 +1/+1 effect can get me past him. I actually want to test with Cavalry Pegasus (maybe in the side).
The +1/+1 effects also make Boros Elite a much better play, in my opinion. He can now kill Boros Reckoner (of course you will lose something else with his effect, but it's almost always worth it ... Boros Reckoner is a house verse weenie decks) or other 3/3s. Even nightveil spectre, which could stall you before, now looks like a bad card when all your guys have +1/+1.
I wish I could find room for Fortify but I'm starting to feel like this is a better build.
Just for fun, I am going to try a variant with 3 Ajani, 2 Helios God of the Sun in place of the 3 Spear 2 Path of Bravery. But I think the existing version is going to be better.
(And I wish, wish wish wish, they would reprint Armegeddon or something like it. I know it's not happening, but this deck reminds me of the good old days -- my first real deck was something like 12ish savannah lions, 8ish white knights, 6ish crusades, 4ish armegeddon, 4ish disenchant, 6ish plowshare, as many mox pearl as I could get my hands on, and the rest plains. Yeah I'm showing my age here but WW has been around forever and it's an awesome deck.)
Personally with this build, I just think the only possible time that Ajani is better than spear is turn 3 versus another aggro deck. And even then he's just marginally better than spear. If we didn't have 16 one drops and precinct captain thing going then I would probably pick Ajani, but spear is so strong with so many dudes.
Spear can be a straight up win con verse many midrange decks, and helps you out in combat verse other aggro decks, and helps you race control or do more damage without overextending into a wrath.
I wish he were a realistic bomb card verse control but there is just so much removal in this environment, he's not going to last the 4-5 turns you need for his ult.
Here's a new version that I am trying:
(I didn't like the color splash so much either, Clownstabber. It was great sometimes, but I'm after consistency first and foremost. I know it's fashionable but I just liked mono white better.)
SB is still up in the air but it def includes renounce the guilds (for blood baron OR detention sphere), pithing needle, and rootborn defenses. And again, it's really hard to decide what to side out.
(option for budget: drop Mutavaults for 3 plains and 1 Imposing Sovereign. But i listed the mutavaults because I figure some people may have them already, even though they want to cheap out on the rest of the deck. It's really not much worse without the mutavaults, they're simply an insurance policy against SV and AoTG.)
So yeah no fortify, even after we just talked about how amazing it is. After finding Path of Bravery (I still don't know all of the new cards lol), I just had to make room for it. And having 4 3-drops that can +1/+1 my guys, I just can't find a place for fortify.
With the +1/+1 effects, Daring Skyjek is a better play than Imposing Sovereign. I see Frostburn Weird played pretty often and he's a major staller for this deck, and turn 2 skyjek turn 3 +1/+1 effect can get me past him. I actually want to test with Cavalry Pegasus (maybe in the side).
The +1/+1 effects also make Boros Elite a much better play, in my opinion. He can now kill Boros Reckoner (of course you will lose something else with his effect, but it's almost always worth it ... Boros Reckoner is a house verse weenie decks) or other 3/3s. Even nightveil spectre, which could stall you before, now looks like a bad card when all your guys have +1/+1.
I wish I could find room for Fortify but I'm starting to feel like this is a better build.
Just for fun, I am going to try a variant with 3 Ajani, 2 Helios God of the Sun in place of the 3 Spear 2 Path of Bravery. But I think the existing version is going to be better.
(And I wish, wish wish wish, they would reprint Armegeddon or something like it. I know it's not happening, but this deck reminds me of the good old days -- my first real deck was something like 12ish savannah lions, 8ish white knights, 6ish crusades, 4ish armegeddon, 4ish disenchant, 6ish plowshare, as many mox pearl as I could get my hands on, and the rest plains. Yeah I'm showing my age here but WW has been around forever and it's an awesome deck.)
Awww yeah, another white weenie groupie. So I honestly think that this deck needs fortify for the reach. Spear of Heliod is great, but the legendary status makes it a dead card in multiples, which is SOOO bad for an aggro deck; dead cards? WE WANT GAS, DANGIT!
On Ajani, I only run 1, and I think that's the right number. We don't always want him, but if you draw that one in the opening hand you can shape a board state where he explodes with goodness.
I have to say that in my experience, Imposing Sovereign is an absolute house. I'm going to start running 4 in the main, actually, because it's just that good. The utility it gives is insane; a ton of the time it'll just eat removal, but that's removal that they aren't using on Precinct Captain or Banisher Priest, which is fine. I genuinely think Daring Skyjek is just the worst card in the deck, period.
On fortify... I really think this deck needs it, not gonna lie. It gives us an absolutely insane amount of reach--more so than literally any other deck in standard--in a color that generally doesn't have blowout potential. The current list I'm taking to FNM tomorrow is as follows:
I think this is a pretty huge improvement over the one I took to last FNM, it's much more streamlined and consistent. Gonna edit this as the revised list on the main post.
Here's the thing. Path of Bravery is good when you're winning. When you're not... its just not.
Imagine vs RDW for example on the draw.
Turn 1 rakdos cackler
Turn 1 soldier of the pantheon
Turn 2 ash zealot, swing for 4.
At this point, any path of bravery that might be in your hand are probably going to be pretty weak for the rest of the game and this bothers me. And against midrange, normally you'd take a hit from their fatty. With path of bravery, taking a couple hits can easily mean losing the anthem. And against MUD in a swinging war, them poking and you poking... its probably going to end up just a lifegain enchantment. Not irrelevant of course but it doesn't pack the oomph I'd like. I just feel fortify is a more flexible choice.
Here's the thing. Path of Bravery is good when you're winning. When you're not... its just not.
Imagine vs RDW for example on the draw.
Turn 1 rakdos cackler
Turn 1 soldier of the pantheon
Turn 2 ash zealot, swing for 4.
At this point, any path of bravery that might be in your hand are probably going to be pretty weak for the rest of the game and this bothers me. And against midrange, normally you'd take a hit from their fatty. With path of bravery, taking a couple hits can easily mean losing the anthem. And against MUD in a swinging war, them poking and you poking... its probably going to end up just a lifegain enchantment. Not irrelevant of course but it doesn't pack the oomph I'd like. I just feel fortify is a more flexible choice.
Yeah I forgot to mention Path of Bravery. It's definitely not what this deck wants to be doing. We don't want to care about our lifetotal; so long as it's not zero, we want to be fine with it. And a conditional anthem in an aggro deck just doesn't seem very powerful.
Well it worked great during goldfishing but after playtesting it's clear that it's a "win more" card.
I wanted to test Ajani more due to the recent discussion (I felt like I had kind of wrote him off too quickly), so I replaced Path of Bravery with Ajani in the previously posted list and proceeded to play 12 mtgo 2-man tournaments last night.
I went 9/3, netting positive event tickets for the night, and Ajani straight up won a lot of my games.
I guess I have been thinking of him strictly in terms of his ultimate and discrediting his -3. I still have never actually cast his ultimate, but his -3 is a lot better than I thought it was.
I lost to Mono Black Devotion (but beat MBD twice), some weird Red/Black control thing with Murder King and Trading post, and a Boros midrange.
And mutavaults gave me a bad draw once. For the benefit they had, I think it's worth it to run 4.
I guess I have been thinking of him strictly in terms of his ultimate and discrediting his -3. I still have never actually cast his ultimate, but his -3 is a lot better than I thought it was.
Aaaaaand right after posting that, I break a stall by swinging with 20 cat tokens.
Well it worked great during goldfishing but after playtesting it's clear that it's a "win more" card.
I wanted to test Ajani more due to the recent discussion (I felt like I had kind of wrote him off too quickly), so I replaced Path of Bravery with Ajani in the previously posted list and proceeded to play 12 mtgo 2-man tournaments last night.
I went 9/3, netting positive event tickets for the night, and Ajani straight up won a lot of my games.
I guess I have been thinking of him strictly in terms of his ultimate and discrediting his -3. I still have never actually cast his ultimate, but his -3 is a lot better than I thought it was.
I lost to Mono Black Devotion (but beat MBD twice), some weird Red/Black control thing with Murder King and Trading post, and a Boros midrange.
And mutavaults gave me a bad draw once. For the benefit they had, I think it's worth it to run 4.
Dude never evaluate a planeswalker primarily on their ultimate! That's a trap, man. His -3 is super powerful, especially on Precinct Captain, and his +1 is great when you're just trying to grind it out (which this deck can actually do, contrary to what our presumed game plan is).
Aaaaaand right after posting that, I break a stall by swinging with 20 cat tokens.
Yeeeeeeeep it's pretty funny LOL. I ultimate'd Ajani after +1'ing with zero creatures on board after a control deck supreme verdicted me. I won that match; five turns with no creatures and Ajani on field. That's how you play white weenie, yo.
Yes, planeswalkers generally shouldn't be evaluated based on the ultimate unless its ridiculously easy to get to. Ajani does his job well, generally creating 4-6 evasive damage randomly or sometimes even better getting to boost a creature in a more even board state, then proceeding to -3 off the larger creature for more damage. I will say again, though, that Ajani and daring skyjek are friends. Especially when you're lacking a spare evasive creature.
Alright guys, the first FNM top 4 was not a fluke; I have officially placed in the money at two FNM's in a row nailing 4-1-1 in da swiss. This deck is the real deal. I play with a relatively competitive meta, with some mono black/blue devotion, esper/uw/grixis control decks, and some solid GR midrange decks. No mutavaults required.
I did a Premier Event with this deck (Clownstabber's latest build) and got 32nd Place (enough for the event to be free!:)). There were a couple pilot errors that might have won me some matches, but also some weaknesses I felt I couldn't deal with. Here's my experience. Feel free to correct my errors in thinking or to give me ideas on how to play better next time.
1. MBD (which I played against 3 times):
Watch out for Shrivel after Game 1! It's worth keeping up the mana for Fortifyuntil you've got enough 2 toughness creatures, and I would argue it necessitates always having at least 2 Spears in the deck at all times.
Gary was obviously the worst card EVER to play against. I ONLY lost to him. Imposing Sovereign is great against Pack Rat, Desecration Demon is easy when you have infinite tokens to sac, but I couldn't find any way to answer a Gary on the field. Especially when followed by two more Garys -_-. Maybe I should side in Keening Apparition, Last Breath, a fourth Banisher Priest, and Celestial Flare and just try to remove as much devotion as possible before the inevitable comes?
2. RW Devotion:
The toughest match I had by far. Went 1-2, but I still felt like I had no chance. His creatures came out faster and were twice as strong. This made me want 4x Fiendslayer Paladin in the sideboard; though not even Fiendslayer has an answer to an overloaded Mizzium Mortars, Chained to the Rocks, or a Boros Reckoner, Stormbreath Dragon, or Purphoros.
Pacifism and Banisher Priest are excellent answers to Reckoner and Purphoros, but the only way I see beating Stormbreath is with a lucky Celestial Flare.
Also, protect your Pantheon at all costs. He has protection from most of RW's creatures (BTE, FBW, BR).
3. MUD:
I felt like I won this one through sheer luck. He's as much an aggro deck as I am. Again, Pantheon is invaluable as he's protected from Judge's Familiar, FBW, and Nightveil Specter. MUD's best answer to my full board of creatures was A. Overloaded Cyclonic Rift, which comes late, but is devastating when it comes, and B., having more creatures, ala Master of Waves. In the match I lost, I Banisher Priest'd his Master, and he then dropped a Cloudfin Raptor and a Bident of Thassa, forced my Banisher to attack, and proceeded to spawn a mess of elementals which evolved Cloudfin to obscene levels. It actually crashed the beta client.
4. The only other match up I had was against an American control deck. It ran just Mutavaults, Jace's, Elspeth's, and a ton of removal. It felt like an easy match once I played around Verdict. Either save mana for Rootborn or save creatures in your hand when you feel like it's coming. I remember holding a Precinct Captain in my hand, debating whether or not to drop it on turn 3, and deciding against it. His turn 4? Verdict. My turn 4, a Captain breathing down his neck.
Best Sideboard for me was Glare of Heresy, Keening Apparition, and Pithing Needle (I only ran 1 in the SB, but I feel like 2 is more appropriate.
Edit: Forgot about my Orzhov midrange match.
This was my second hardest match up. Once obzedat or blood baron were out, it was game over. All I can think is to include renounce the guilds in the board, but this is one of the only match ups that would need it. Otherwise, seems like one where you keep all your one drops in and blitz hard. Might need 4x fortify for situations like this.
I look forward to playing more!
My suggestion against MBD is to not worry as much about trying to slow them down so much as you should be worrying about how you can run faster. In your latter two matches, I think that the biggest advice I can give is to get used to feeling out when is the right time to play brave the elements.
And the MUD player didn't understand how evolve works. Every evolve trigger happens separately, first to trigger at all, then checks upon resolution.
So a 0/1 cloudfin raptor jumps to 2/3 if MOW comes in barring outside interference. If there's 2 MOW, it'll jump to a 3/4. Prettymuch that's as far as it goes bia mass tokens.
The cloudfin raptor sees the first token is a 2/1 and it a 0/1. Greater power. So it evolves and gets a counter. Then it sees the second token and sees that the token is a 2/1 and it a 1/2. So it evolves and gets a counter again. Then it sees the third 2/1 token and that it is a 2/3. But the token doesn't have greater power or toughness so the check on resolution fails and thus it doesn't get the counter. All following evolve triggers from tokens will end up the same way.
Realistically, the biggest a cloudfin raptor will ever become in a MUD deck (and only on very rare occasion) is a 5/6. Nightveil can bring it up to 2/3 but after that, its just frostburn weird and Thassa. But that is pretty backwards with the curve generally and raptor (while good) just won't be reaching obscene levels.
I did a Premier Event with this deck (Clownstabber's latest build) and got 32nd Place (enough for the event to be free!:)). There were a couple pilot errors that might have won me some matches, but also some weaknesses I felt I couldn't deal with. Here's my experience. Feel free to correct my errors in thinking or to give me ideas on how to play better next time.
1. MBD (which I played against 3 times):
Watch out for Shrivel after Game 1! It's worth keeping up the mana for Fortifyuntil you've got enough 2 toughness creatures, and I would argue it necessitates always having at least 2 Spears in the deck at all times.
Gary was obviously the worst card EVER to play against. I ONLY lost to him. Imposing Sovereign is great against Pack Rat, Desecration Demon is easy when you have infinite tokens to sac, but I couldn't find any way to answer a Gary on the field. Especially when followed by two more Garys -_-. Maybe I should side in Keening Apparition, Last Breath, a fourth Banisher Priest, and Celestial Flare and just try to remove as much devotion as possible before the inevitable comes?
Honestly I think MBD is one of our best matchups; my current sideboard plan for them is -1 Spear of Heliod, -1 Ajani, -2 Daring Skyjek, +3 Keening Apparition, +1 Banisher Priest. We use keening apparition to destroy underworld connections (always), and the obvious 4th Banisher Priest for desecration/nightveil specter. It's possible that we should actually be maindecking 4 banisher priests, with 4 frontline medics in the side. If we do it this way, I'd actually also cut all 4 judge's familiars for 2 frontline medics and 2 celestial flares. This makes us *much* more resilient. I'm not sure if this is optimal, but it's a sketch. I haven't played enough yet.
2. RW Devotion:
The toughest match I had by far. Went 1-2, but I still felt like I had no chance. His creatures came out faster and were twice as strong. This made me want 4x Fiendslayer Paladin in the sideboard; though not even Fiendslayer has an answer to an overloaded Mizzium Mortars, Chained to the Rocks, or a Boros Reckoner, Stormbreath Dragon, or Purphoros.
Pacifism and Banisher Priest are excellent answers to Reckoner and Purphoros, but the only way I see beating Stormbreath is with a lucky Celestial Flare.
Also, protect your Pantheon at all costs. He has protection from most of RW's creatures (BTE, FBW, BR).
Yeah, we need a pretty explosive start to wreck RW devotion; and if they side in electrickery we're hosed. Here's what I recommend:
-2 Daring Skyjek, -1 Spear of Heliod, +2 Glare of Heresy, +1 Banisher Priest. The problem with this deck is that if the field is well prepared to deal with us, we're totally screwed lol. Just about every color combination has an answer to us.
[QUOTE=yasseford;/comments/12683623]3. MUD:
I felt like I won this one through sheer luck. He's as much an aggro deck as I am. Again, Pantheon is invaluable as he's protected from Judge's Familiar, FBW, and Nightveil Specter. MUD's best answer to my full board of creatures was A. Overloaded Cyclonic Rift, which comes late, but is devastating when it comes, and B., having more creatures, ala Master of Waves. In the match I lost, I Banisher Priest'd his Master, and he then dropped a Cloudfin Raptor and a Bident of Thassa, forced my Banisher to attack, and proceeded to spawn a mess of elementals which evolved Cloudfin to obscene levels. It actually crashed the beta client.[QUOTE]
See, I think we have a pretty good matchup against MUD. They have less consistent draws, and we can usually just alpha strike them turn 4 or 5 with some combination of brave the elements and fortify. Just ping in some early damage (hopefully, not always), and then finish them off nice and good.
I actually think that you should be keeping both spears against RW devotion. Having the anthem stops you from getting electrickery wiped and the boost gets pretty relevant in the face of frostburn. 3 power creatures would then trade instead of getting walled. Precinct captain attacks into ash zealot just fine. Boros reckoner now trades with prettymuch anything. Big difference. I put fairly big value on drawing it, enough to still run 2.
I actually think that you should be keeping both spears against RW devotion. Having the anthem stops you from getting electrickery wiped and the boost gets pretty relevant in the face of frostburn. 3 power creatures would then trade instead of getting walled. Precinct captain attacks into ash zealot just fine. Boros reckoner now trades with prettymuch anything. Big difference. I put fairly big value on drawing it, enough to still run 2.
And I agree on the favorable matchup with MUD.
Yeah definitely on spears against electrickery; I'm not sure why I typed that out. I'm posting a revised list with no Ajani now. I'd rather just run a 4th Banisher Priest. It frees up a sideboard slot for... something. Not sure yet. Maybe a 4th Keening Apparition, because she's great against red decks that may side in electrickery, and MUD, and... yeah. I'm not sure if that's right though.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
I initially thought I "had" to play fiendslayer, because with my other deck (black/red aggro), he totally kills me.
But, black/red aggro isn't so big in the field. Usually it's red with white, in which case they will just chain him to the rocks, and the black decks will run bigger range stuff, and desecration demon kind of hoses him.
So, I think he is not as good as I thought he was. I just see him do a lot of work when I play vs him with my black/red deck. But I'm not seeing that deck very much.
And I certainly agree. It is difficult to sideboard more than 4 cards in this deck. I usually find myself taking out the skyjeks, a fortify, a spear, and maybe a one drop or a banisher priest.
I've almost made my money back with this deck already. I won 2 MTGO standard tournaments, netting 18 tix. And I bought the whole thing for around 20 tix.
enchanting Witchstalker with Raised by Wolves
Awesome man! Glad you're getting good results. I'm currently switching over to W/b to splash for Orzhov Charm and Xathrid Necromancer in the maindeck, with the added benefit of Thoughtseize, doom blades, and all the other good stuff that black gives. Obviously i'm not running a "budget" version, but the cards will all retain their value minus Temple of Silence.
It's a pretty funny card, and I fell in love with it as soon as I saw it. That being said, I can't really assess its value. I think it'd be a bit weak unless we could up our 1-drops to 20 in total. Too often it wouldn't bring back enough creatures to be worth it, I think. That being said, I'm not sure!
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
Orzhov gets more staying power and Boros gets more reach. Both seem to be good decks. We lose a little bit of reach by dropping fortify, so red seems logical, but the anti-wrath capabilities of the Xathrid are very tempting.
The removal that black offers is more tempting because of the prevelance of Master of Waves.
I _really_ don't like the idea of temples coming into play tapped, but they may be a neccessary evil. Will probably need to run 22-23 lands then.
Should be plenty "budget" for me still, as I already own the Xathrids and Thoughtseizes from my Rakdos deck. Still kicking the can on the Mutavaults though ... great card just don't want to drop $100 on something that may not be standard-legal soon.
I did some solitairing with orzhov--which I was SUPER excited about trying--and I hated it. The consistency we lose from splashing black with ETBT lands is crippling from what i've seen. Also, Fortify is just... too insane, man. I don't know what else to say. It's the best card in the deck. I wanted to splash black for the amazing sideboard that we get, but I really don't think it's worth the blow to our g1 potential.
Oh, and about mutavault... Since we're running the 16 1-drop version of white weenie, they aren't an auto-4-of. I think 2 of would be the most optimal number right now. I'm with you though, not gonna shell out that kind of dough for a land that marginally improves the deck.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
What does everyone think of ajani in the deck? I'm running 22 lands, and even then I always seems to be stuck on two lands.
Ajani is great. I only run 21 lands and I find that to be perfectly good. But yeah, Ajani is great. I only run one, and I find that to be enough. Fortify is our main wincon.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
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Spear can be a straight up win con verse many midrange decks, and helps you out in combat verse other aggro decks, and helps you race control or do more damage without overextending into a wrath.
I wish he were a realistic bomb card verse control but there is just so much removal in this environment, he's not going to last the 4-5 turns you need for his ult.
Here's a new version that I am trying:
(I didn't like the color splash so much either, Clownstabber. It was great sometimes, but I'm after consistency first and foremost. I know it's fashionable but I just liked mono white better.)
4 Dryad Militant
4 Judges Familiar
4 Boros Elite
4 Precinct Captain
1 Imposing Sovereign
4 Banisher Priest
2 Path of Bravery
4 Brave the Elements
4 Mutavault
18 Plains
SB is still up in the air but it def includes renounce the guilds (for blood baron OR detention sphere), pithing needle, and rootborn defenses. And again, it's really hard to decide what to side out.
(option for budget: drop Mutavaults for 3 plains and 1 Imposing Sovereign. But i listed the mutavaults because I figure some people may have them already, even though they want to cheap out on the rest of the deck. It's really not much worse without the mutavaults, they're simply an insurance policy against SV and AoTG.)
So yeah no fortify, even after we just talked about how amazing it is. After finding Path of Bravery (I still don't know all of the new cards lol), I just had to make room for it. And having 4 3-drops that can +1/+1 my guys, I just can't find a place for fortify.
With the +1/+1 effects, Daring Skyjek is a better play than Imposing Sovereign. I see Frostburn Weird played pretty often and he's a major staller for this deck, and turn 2 skyjek turn 3 +1/+1 effect can get me past him. I actually want to test with Cavalry Pegasus (maybe in the side).
The +1/+1 effects also make Boros Elite a much better play, in my opinion. He can now kill Boros Reckoner (of course you will lose something else with his effect, but it's almost always worth it ... Boros Reckoner is a house verse weenie decks) or other 3/3s. Even nightveil spectre, which could stall you before, now looks like a bad card when all your guys have +1/+1.
I wish I could find room for Fortify but I'm starting to feel like this is a better build.
Just for fun, I am going to try a variant with 3 Ajani, 2 Helios God of the Sun in place of the 3 Spear 2 Path of Bravery. But I think the existing version is going to be better.
(And I wish, wish wish wish, they would reprint Armegeddon or something like it. I know it's not happening, but this deck reminds me of the good old days -- my first real deck was something like 12ish savannah lions, 8ish white knights, 6ish crusades, 4ish armegeddon, 4ish disenchant, 6ish plowshare, as many mox pearl as I could get my hands on, and the rest plains. Yeah I'm showing my age here but WW has been around forever and it's an awesome deck.)
Awww yeah, another white weenie groupie. So I honestly think that this deck needs fortify for the reach. Spear of Heliod is great, but the legendary status makes it a dead card in multiples, which is SOOO bad for an aggro deck; dead cards? WE WANT GAS, DANGIT!
On Ajani, I only run 1, and I think that's the right number. We don't always want him, but if you draw that one in the opening hand you can shape a board state where he explodes with goodness.
I have to say that in my experience, Imposing Sovereign is an absolute house. I'm going to start running 4 in the main, actually, because it's just that good. The utility it gives is insane; a ton of the time it'll just eat removal, but that's removal that they aren't using on Precinct Captain or Banisher Priest, which is fine. I genuinely think Daring Skyjek is just the worst card in the deck, period.
On fortify... I really think this deck needs it, not gonna lie. It gives us an absolutely insane amount of reach--more so than literally any other deck in standard--in a color that generally doesn't have blowout potential. The current list I'm taking to FNM tomorrow is as follows:
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Dryad Militant
2 Daring Skyjek
4 Precinct Captain
4 Imposing Sovereign
3 Fortify
2 Spear of Heliod
1 Ajani, caller of the pride
4 Brave the Elements
21 Plains
2 Celestial Flare
1 Pithing Needle
1 Banisher Priest
2 Rootborn Defense
3 Keening Apparition
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Last Breath
2 Pacifism
I think this is a pretty huge improvement over the one I took to last FNM, it's much more streamlined and consistent. Gonna edit this as the revised list on the main post.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
Imagine vs RDW for example on the draw.
Turn 1 rakdos cackler
Turn 1 soldier of the pantheon
Turn 2 ash zealot, swing for 4.
At this point, any path of bravery that might be in your hand are probably going to be pretty weak for the rest of the game and this bothers me. And against midrange, normally you'd take a hit from their fatty. With path of bravery, taking a couple hits can easily mean losing the anthem. And against MUD in a swinging war, them poking and you poking... its probably going to end up just a lifegain enchantment. Not irrelevant of course but it doesn't pack the oomph I'd like. I just feel fortify is a more flexible choice.
Yeah I forgot to mention Path of Bravery. It's definitely not what this deck wants to be doing. We don't want to care about our lifetotal; so long as it's not zero, we want to be fine with it. And a conditional anthem in an aggro deck just doesn't seem very powerful.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
I wanted to test Ajani more due to the recent discussion (I felt like I had kind of wrote him off too quickly), so I replaced Path of Bravery with Ajani in the previously posted list and proceeded to play 12 mtgo 2-man tournaments last night.
I went 9/3, netting positive event tickets for the night, and Ajani straight up won a lot of my games.
I guess I have been thinking of him strictly in terms of his ultimate and discrediting his -3. I still have never actually cast his ultimate, but his -3 is a lot better than I thought it was.
I lost to Mono Black Devotion (but beat MBD twice), some weird Red/Black control thing with Murder King and Trading post, and a Boros midrange.
And mutavaults gave me a bad draw once. For the benefit they had, I think it's worth it to run 4.
Aaaaaand right after posting that, I break a stall by swinging with 20 cat tokens.
Dude never evaluate a planeswalker primarily on their ultimate! That's a trap, man. His -3 is super powerful, especially on Precinct Captain, and his +1 is great when you're just trying to grind it out (which this deck can actually do, contrary to what our presumed game plan is).
Yeeeeeeeep it's pretty funny LOL. I ultimate'd Ajani after +1'ing with zero creatures on board after a control deck supreme verdicted me. I won that match; five turns with no creatures and Ajani on field. That's how you play white weenie, yo.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
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Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
1. MBD (which I played against 3 times):
Watch out for Shrivel after Game 1! It's worth keeping up the mana for Fortifyuntil you've got enough 2 toughness creatures, and I would argue it necessitates always having at least 2 Spears in the deck at all times.
Gary was obviously the worst card EVER to play against. I ONLY lost to him. Imposing Sovereign is great against Pack Rat, Desecration Demon is easy when you have infinite tokens to sac, but I couldn't find any way to answer a Gary on the field. Especially when followed by two more Garys -_-. Maybe I should side in Keening Apparition, Last Breath, a fourth Banisher Priest, and Celestial Flare and just try to remove as much devotion as possible before the inevitable comes?
2. RW Devotion:
The toughest match I had by far. Went 1-2, but I still felt like I had no chance. His creatures came out faster and were twice as strong. This made me want 4x Fiendslayer Paladin in the sideboard; though not even Fiendslayer has an answer to an overloaded Mizzium Mortars, Chained to the Rocks, or a Boros Reckoner, Stormbreath Dragon, or Purphoros.
Pacifism and Banisher Priest are excellent answers to Reckoner and Purphoros, but the only way I see beating Stormbreath is with a lucky Celestial Flare.
Also, protect your Pantheon at all costs. He has protection from most of RW's creatures (BTE, FBW, BR).
3. MUD:
I felt like I won this one through sheer luck. He's as much an aggro deck as I am. Again, Pantheon is invaluable as he's protected from Judge's Familiar, FBW, and Nightveil Specter. MUD's best answer to my full board of creatures was A. Overloaded Cyclonic Rift, which comes late, but is devastating when it comes, and B., having more creatures, ala Master of Waves. In the match I lost, I Banisher Priest'd his Master, and he then dropped a Cloudfin Raptor and a Bident of Thassa, forced my Banisher to attack, and proceeded to spawn a mess of elementals which evolved Cloudfin to obscene levels. It actually crashed the beta client.
4. The only other match up I had was against an American control deck. It ran just Mutavaults, Jace's, Elspeth's, and a ton of removal. It felt like an easy match once I played around Verdict. Either save mana for Rootborn or save creatures in your hand when you feel like it's coming. I remember holding a Precinct Captain in my hand, debating whether or not to drop it on turn 3, and deciding against it. His turn 4? Verdict. My turn 4, a Captain breathing down his neck.
Best Sideboard for me was Glare of Heresy, Keening Apparition, and Pithing Needle (I only ran 1 in the SB, but I feel like 2 is more appropriate.
Edit: Forgot about my Orzhov midrange match.
This was my second hardest match up. Once obzedat or blood baron were out, it was game over. All I can think is to include renounce the guilds in the board, but this is one of the only match ups that would need it. Otherwise, seems like one where you keep all your one drops in and blitz hard. Might need 4x fortify for situations like this.
I look forward to playing more!
And the MUD player didn't understand how evolve works. Every evolve trigger happens separately, first to trigger at all, then checks upon resolution.
So a 0/1 cloudfin raptor jumps to 2/3 if MOW comes in barring outside interference. If there's 2 MOW, it'll jump to a 3/4. Prettymuch that's as far as it goes bia mass tokens.
It goes like this.
2/1 token triggers evolve
2/1 token triggers evolve
2/1 token triggers evolve
2/1 token triggers evolve
2/1 token triggers evolve
2/1 token triggers evolve
etc.
The cloudfin raptor sees the first token is a 2/1 and it a 0/1. Greater power. So it evolves and gets a counter. Then it sees the second token and sees that the token is a 2/1 and it a 1/2. So it evolves and gets a counter again. Then it sees the third 2/1 token and that it is a 2/3. But the token doesn't have greater power or toughness so the check on resolution fails and thus it doesn't get the counter. All following evolve triggers from tokens will end up the same way.
Realistically, the biggest a cloudfin raptor will ever become in a MUD deck (and only on very rare occasion) is a 5/6. Nightveil can bring it up to 2/3 but after that, its just frostburn weird and Thassa. But that is pretty backwards with the curve generally and raptor (while good) just won't be reaching obscene levels.
Thanks for trying my deck out, man!
Honestly I think MBD is one of our best matchups; my current sideboard plan for them is -1 Spear of Heliod, -1 Ajani, -2 Daring Skyjek, +3 Keening Apparition, +1 Banisher Priest. We use keening apparition to destroy underworld connections (always), and the obvious 4th Banisher Priest for desecration/nightveil specter. It's possible that we should actually be maindecking 4 banisher priests, with 4 frontline medics in the side. If we do it this way, I'd actually also cut all 4 judge's familiars for 2 frontline medics and 2 celestial flares. This makes us *much* more resilient. I'm not sure if this is optimal, but it's a sketch. I haven't played enough yet.
Yeah, we need a pretty explosive start to wreck RW devotion; and if they side in electrickery we're hosed. Here's what I recommend:
-2 Daring Skyjek, -1 Spear of Heliod, +2 Glare of Heresy, +1 Banisher Priest. The problem with this deck is that if the field is well prepared to deal with us, we're totally screwed lol. Just about every color combination has an answer to us.
[QUOTE=yasseford;/comments/12683623]3. MUD:
I felt like I won this one through sheer luck. He's as much an aggro deck as I am. Again, Pantheon is invaluable as he's protected from Judge's Familiar, FBW, and Nightveil Specter. MUD's best answer to my full board of creatures was A. Overloaded Cyclonic Rift, which comes late, but is devastating when it comes, and B., having more creatures, ala Master of Waves. In the match I lost, I Banisher Priest'd his Master, and he then dropped a Cloudfin Raptor and a Bident of Thassa, forced my Banisher to attack, and proceeded to spawn a mess of elementals which evolved Cloudfin to obscene levels. It actually crashed the beta client.[QUOTE]
See, I think we have a pretty good matchup against MUD. They have less consistent draws, and we can usually just alpha strike them turn 4 or 5 with some combination of brave the elements and fortify. Just ping in some early damage (hopefully, not always), and then finish them off nice and good.
I hope this helped, man
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks
And I agree on the favorable matchup with MUD.
Yeah definitely on spears against electrickery; I'm not sure why I typed that out. I'm posting a revised list with no Ajani now. I'd rather just run a 4th Banisher Priest. It frees up a sideboard slot for... something. Not sure yet. Maybe a 4th Keening Apparition, because she's great against red decks that may side in electrickery, and MUD, and... yeah. I'm not sure if that's right though.
Standard Budget Decks Link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/budget-standard/752237-clownstabbers-budget-decks