Wasn't the main reason Smuggler's Copter was banned was that it could be a 4 of in legit any deck that played creatures? Now we have a card pushing 60 dollars that can be a 4 of in every single standard deck if you want to play it. I realize it will come down some, but 200 some odd dollar playset of anything should not be a thing in standard. If anyone is actually paying close to 500 dollars for standard I implore you just play a different format. You can buy good modern decks for that price.
That price tag is mostly because Karn is good in Vintage. Teferi is the better card in standard.
The argument is 30+ dollar cards are bad for a format that's struggling. 60+ is just stupid.
Should be harder to give the design team the benefit of the doubt after 2 years of disaster.
What exactly are they doing to bring people back into standard... aside from appealing to people's desire to blow all their cash on overpriced singles?
...Gary, your'e just mad because you do not understand why how Karn's price tag is what it is. And the going rate for a "plains" walker is not a reason to not print it.
The argument is 30+ dollar cards are bad for a format that's struggling. 60+ is just stupid.
Should be harder to give the design team the benefit of the doubt after 2 years of disaster.
What exactly are they doing to bring people back into standard... aside from appealing to people's desire to blow all their cash on overpriced singles?
I don't think this is moderatable, but it is less clearly "nice and respectful" than I'd like. There are some interesting ideas being discussed and I suppose some venting is appropriate, but I'd like more understanding and positive discussion of ideas from this thread. We expect Wizard's employees to be respected also.
The argument is 30+ dollar cards are bad for a format that's struggling. 60+ is just stupid.
Should be harder to give the design team the benefit of the doubt after 2 years of disaster.
What exactly are they doing to bring people back into standard... aside from appealing to people's desire to blow all their cash on overpriced singles?
Speaking as a user myself, I can't disagree that standard has had a rough go recently.
The pricing is an interesting question:
High card price produces demand for boxes.
Limited supply could be holding prices at an unsustainable level.
People being drawn to standard by a popular set could be making the pricing issues worse.
I don't really sympathize with people complaining about being unable to play due to cost in this instance. I know from experience that one can win at FNM level without the most expensive cards. There are great cards in this set: History, Teferi, Karn, Chainwhirler, Lyra, Shalai... But none of them seem unbeatable to me. As far as play patterns go, winning with a Teferi emblem is miserable imo, but the others work for me. But if you want to make the pro tour via GP or PPTQ I think you should be willing to invest in the deck that will give you the best shot.
Standard has had problems. These prices could moderate significantly when more supply hits the market. A popular set could be a way out of Standard's problems even if the popularity exacerbates the pricing issues over the short term.
My complaint is standard has a hard time firing in lots of places these days.
2 years ago my large LGS sported 15-25 players for standard every FNM. It held events on Sunday and Tuesday that all fired every time.
This month standard barely fires with 6-8 people (occasionally 'fill-ins' are used so we can play). Sundays don't fire, weekdays forget it.
Modern 2 years ago same FNM around 10-15 people. Today 20-30 consistently, fires every time. holiday weekend in Dec there were 81 Modern players (standard didn't fire). Is it that way everywhere? No. Is that a sign that standard needs a lot of help? Sure is. High entry cost to be competitive (or just looking at card costs and saying 'forget that') makes people think... hmmm I'll just play commander, or another game entirely.
At a time when they ought to be bending over backwards go get people in standard high prices such as these don't help. It sucked when it was just Gideon, now we've got 3 plainswalkers and numerous other cards above $20 each, including cards that will rotate sooner than later. Not exactly great investment time.
They've noticed lower attendance at the big events, that means a LOT lower attendance at LGS. Why even buy cards if you don't get to use them?
It's nice they're grudgingly bringing back FNM promos but frankly that's not enough. Challenger decks are ok but to make them right you need to invest in quite a few of the same cards we're talking about.
I just don't want to wonder if FNM will fire or not, or if I should bother taking the time to see if it will. That alone makes people think twice before showing up to play.
I´m chiming in as a player who considered picking up a standard deck, but ultimately opted out because of the price and ubiquity of Karn. I strongly dislike feeling like I´m playing a budget/non-optimal list, and it seems like I have the choice of either doing that or dishing out an unreasonable amount on an insanely inflated card that´s bound to crash eventually. I know that buying singles that will go down in value is part of the format, but this is just too much. I actually started to scrape a white aggro deck together, I even have the playset of History, but now I´m going to feel like I´m playing a loser´s version of WB Vehicles, and there´s no way I´m buying into a $650 Standard deck. I could consider GB Constrictor, but I guess it´s just a matter of time before people figure out that Karn is good there too. So I´m giving it a pass and I´m selling the Standard relevant cards I have.
I´m convinced that Karn hurts the format. I can´t possibly be the only one who was tempted to get into Standard, then looked at the top decks and the prices and went "heeell no".
THIS is what the problem is. It's not just a 4 cost 6 (+1 unless exiled immediately) loyalty plains walker that starts with value and continues to generate it.
It's the fact that right now standard is decimated. FNM barely fires in many places (even if your LGS is doing fine think big picture) and they print a card that CAN go in any deck and generate value. Is it optimized for every deck? No. Does it function in every deck? Yes. How many decks are answering T4 6 loyalty? Even if you do, they play another, still value. Paying attention to the 'artifacts matter' portion of the -2 is shallow. The +1 and needing to deal with 6 loyalty is the power. Sure Vehicles or RDW can just plow through and ignore him, but the fact is we have a card that is $70 bucks in a standard that needs more players. There was plenty of problem with the cost of standard with 20-25 dollar premium mythics before this. Now this bank busting price tag (doesn't matter if it EVENTUALLY drops) is making people refuse to play standard.
Karn does hurt an already bleeding and ragged format. The Kaladesh dumpster fire is still harming the format but all will not get better after it rotates and I guarantee Karn will NOT lose his luster as much as people think with Kaladesh rotation. After 2 years of stomping on their own game and driving people away from standard they need to be much smarter than this and proactively take action to make standard less expensive not more. They're doing nothing there, and they're doing nothing to attract people to the format. (The Challenger decks are not a hit but a total whiff)
Printing Karn is a mistake.
No, the way they do rarity is a mistake. Karn isn't broken, he's in high demand because many decks are missing a draw engine. People are using him in decks that normally don't have a means of drawing cards and they often don't care about the construct token. However, what is driving his price isn't standard, it's standard + legacy + some modern play. Sellers know that old boy legacy players have a LOT of money. They can push the price to the sky and still sell copies to the Legacy crowd since they are used to spending 100 dollars or more on a single card like a Bayou.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree that Karn's power level is quite high and correct if I'm wrong but it's maybe the most powerful and ubiquitous Standard planeswalker since Jace, the Mind Sculptor. That said, unlike those times where there wasn't a single Pithing Needle or Oblivion Ring to keep him on check, this time there are more effects to pin him down like Sorcerous Spyglass. So there's a chance to keep people from slamming into decks without fear of consequences.
I agree that Karn's power level is quite high and correct if I'm wrong but it's maybe the most powerful and ubiquitous Standard planeswalker since Jace, the Mind Sculptor. That said, unlike those times where there wasn't a single Pithing Needle or Oblivion Ring to keep him on check, this time there are more effects to pin him down like Sorcerous Spyglass. So there's a chance to keep people from slamming into decks without fear of consequences.
He's mostly that way because of the fact he is filling a role that is lacking in every other color besides blue. Also, the big thing spiking his price is vehicles. He's an incredibly obvious upgrade if someone bought the vehicle rush challenger deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That price tag is mostly because Karn is good in Vintage. Teferi is the better card in standard.
While Teferi is arguably more powerful it also costs 1-more mana and doesn't go into every deck so there is no point in comparing the two imho.
Should be harder to give the design team the benefit of the doubt after 2 years of disaster.
What exactly are they doing to bring people back into standard... aside from appealing to people's desire to blow all their cash on overpriced singles?
Per "MTG Salvation Official Forum Rules and Guidelines," "Be nice and respectful, don't flame or troll other users." This seems to me to be lacking in respect in the following ways:
I don't think this is moderatable, but it is less clearly "nice and respectful" than I'd like. There are some interesting ideas being discussed and I suppose some venting is appropriate, but I'd like more understanding and positive discussion of ideas from this thread. We expect Wizard's employees to be respected also.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
The pricing is an interesting question:
I don't really sympathize with people complaining about being unable to play due to cost in this instance. I know from experience that one can win at FNM level without the most expensive cards. There are great cards in this set: History, Teferi, Karn, Chainwhirler, Lyra, Shalai... But none of them seem unbeatable to me. As far as play patterns go, winning with a Teferi emblem is miserable imo, but the others work for me. But if you want to make the pro tour via GP or PPTQ I think you should be willing to invest in the deck that will give you the best shot.
Standard has had problems. These prices could moderate significantly when more supply hits the market. A popular set could be a way out of Standard's problems even if the popularity exacerbates the pricing issues over the short term.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
2 years ago my large LGS sported 15-25 players for standard every FNM. It held events on Sunday and Tuesday that all fired every time.
This month standard barely fires with 6-8 people (occasionally 'fill-ins' are used so we can play). Sundays don't fire, weekdays forget it.
Modern 2 years ago same FNM around 10-15 people. Today 20-30 consistently, fires every time. holiday weekend in Dec there were 81 Modern players (standard didn't fire). Is it that way everywhere? No. Is that a sign that standard needs a lot of help? Sure is. High entry cost to be competitive (or just looking at card costs and saying 'forget that') makes people think... hmmm I'll just play commander, or another game entirely.
At a time when they ought to be bending over backwards go get people in standard high prices such as these don't help. It sucked when it was just Gideon, now we've got 3 plainswalkers and numerous other cards above $20 each, including cards that will rotate sooner than later. Not exactly great investment time.
They've noticed lower attendance at the big events, that means a LOT lower attendance at LGS. Why even buy cards if you don't get to use them?
It's nice they're grudgingly bringing back FNM promos but frankly that's not enough. Challenger decks are ok but to make them right you need to invest in quite a few of the same cards we're talking about.
I just don't want to wonder if FNM will fire or not, or if I should bother taking the time to see if it will. That alone makes people think twice before showing up to play.
No, the way they do rarity is a mistake. Karn isn't broken, he's in high demand because many decks are missing a draw engine. People are using him in decks that normally don't have a means of drawing cards and they often don't care about the construct token. However, what is driving his price isn't standard, it's standard + legacy + some modern play. Sellers know that old boy legacy players have a LOT of money. They can push the price to the sky and still sell copies to the Legacy crowd since they are used to spending 100 dollars or more on a single card like a Bayou.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
He's mostly that way because of the fact he is filling a role that is lacking in every other color besides blue. Also, the big thing spiking his price is vehicles. He's an incredibly obvious upgrade if someone bought the vehicle rush challenger deck.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Or they did and imagined sales are more important than game health?