... Rampaging ferocidon? Ruins has a replacement with the new flip land so I could see that, but they just ended all energy decks hardcore.
So wizards, about how you reverted that rotation schedule back to a year, are you sure you really reverted it if you have to drop nuclear weapons on your rotating format? At this point they are training people to never buy good cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I never saw Ferocidon, which is a shame because its a really cool card. RR can still survive without Ruins.
By nerfing energy they almost had to nerf RR too or we would be in the same boat, but with RR taking the place of energy...
Yeah, but I'd have hit the four drop slot instead of a card that is just a good value three drop. Ferocidon didn't see a lot if play like smugglers did and was often sideboard material.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hrm, after a fairly lengthy period of them not happening, my LGS was just starting to actually fire Standard events again on FNM. I wonder if this will help or hinder it (probably hinder).
I do find it interesting that, once again, cards are banned from Standard that are a virtual nonentity in the larger formats. I know I've pointed this out before, but seriously, consider it: Prior to the Kaladesh bans, every ban that ever happened in the history of Standard was of a card/deck that was, at least at the time, a major player in the larger formats (except for maybe Fluctuator). Stoneforge and Jace are still Legacy all-stars and got themselves banned in Extended (although that was just the shortened, 4-year Extended--though even if it was still the old 7-year Extended and they weren't banned, they would've been good). Affinity (post-Skullclamp ban) was a real force in Legacy and Extended (even if it only received a powerful deck that was a real force in Legacy and was judged to be powerful enough in Extended to be worth weakening. Skullclamp was Skullclamp. I'm not going to go through the Tempest/Urza's Saga block bannings individually but note how all of them were banned in larger formats or were, at the time, very relevant cards.
Sure, some of them have lost their luster. You barely see cards like Time Spiral or Fork played anywhere nowadays. But at least back then they were considered to be forces in the larger formats. Not these cards they just banned. Really speaks to how messed up Standard is if they're having to ban cards that are nonentities in formats like Modern.
Really speaks to how messed up Standard is if they're having to ban cards that are nonentities in formats like Modern.
You hit the nail on the head. How are you going to get people to invest money in decks where, not only are the cards unplayable outside of Standard, but they may also end up unplayable in Standard as well as the result of a ban?
The problem isn't that the cards are too powerful. As you point out, if that were the case, these cards would see some play in Modern at least.
My suggestion is a major change to how the Standard legal list is formed. I would propose that certain stabilizing cards be legal in Standard all the time, regardless of when they were last printed. I would propose for consideration: Doom Blade, Mana Leak, Lightning Strike, Disenchant, and Naturalize. All of these cards have been printed a bazillion times (maybe Mana Leak should see a reprint, not sure) such that they will be cheap to obtain forever. These cards help prevent certain degenerate strategies from getting out of control.
Energy was a huge failure on the part of R&D. It's not too powerful (when is the last time you've seen Aetherworks Marvel in Modern?). The problem is that they neglected to print anything that attacks Energy that is playable if you happen to not be playing against Energy.
Hrm, after a fairly lengthy period of them not happening, my LGS was just starting to actually fire Standard events again on FNM. I wonder if this will help or hinder it (probably hinder).
I do find it interesting that, once again, cards are banned from Standard that are a virtual nonentity in the larger formats. I know I've pointed this out before, but seriously, consider it: Prior to the Kaladesh bans, every ban that ever happened in the history of Standard was of a card/deck that was, at least at the time, a major player in the larger formats (except for maybe Fluctuator). Stoneforge and Jace are still Legacy all-stars and got themselves banned in Extended (although that was just the shortened, 4-year Extended--though even if it was still the old 7-year Extended and they weren't banned, they would've been good). Affinity (post-Skullclamp ban) was a real force in Legacy and Extended (even if it only received a powerful deck that was a real force in Legacy and was judged to be powerful enough in Extended to be worth weakening. Skullclamp was Skullclamp. I'm not going to go through the Tempest/Urza's Saga block bannings individually but note how all of them were banned in larger formats or were, at the time, very relevant cards.
Sure, some of them have lost their luster. You barely see cards like Time Spiral or Fork played anywhere nowadays. But at least back then they were considered to be forces in the larger formats. Not these cards they just banned. Really speaks to how messed up Standard is if they're having to ban cards that are nonentities in formats like Modern.
I predict standard numbers will stay consistent at most LGS'.
The ban will:
-Bring back players who were tired of getting roflstomped by energy game after game after game, and people who want to brew their own cool decks and have a decent chance of winning
-Some energy players will be upset so they will probably stop coming for a bit
Good changes. RR and Energy have been extremely dominant. Hitting one without the other doesnt fix the problem.
Actually seeing a metagame develop will be a good thing. Players upset at the bannings should consider the health of the format before their own dollar.
I do agree with the criticisms of needing to ban energy in the first place. Kaladesh hasnt been a fun or good standard set in almost any regard since its launch from my understanding. CoCo pushed me away from standard, and I returned recently, often my standard tournaments wouldnt even fire. If this is the case globally, bannings are a good thing. This is emergency surgery, it'll do short term damage, but ultimately help the pre-rotation format more than a lot of players realize.
This would all be a non-issue if standard sets had many powerful cards like they did prior to Theros. Modern and Legacy can adapt to new cards due to their vast pool of answers, and when standard is a good format and the rotations are slower, people are willing to pay for expensive decks. The format didnt really get cheaper when card quality dropped, the price of standard cards that won't be useful post rotation is the same as the cards that are now modern staples, that existed in standard, when they were in standard. Print an odd half dozen cards people will play in eternal formats per set, raise the baseline power level of cards, knock it off with the ETB effect cards, and then things like energy won't ever come up, and the health of the format is raised fairly dramatically.
Good bans, good for the format, doesnt fix format problems. Standard isnt appealing because very few of the cards have any sticking power in eternal formats.
This would all be a non-issue if standard sets had many powerful cards like they did prior to Theros. Modern and Legacy can adapt to new cards due to their vast pool of answers, and when standard is a good format and the rotations are slower, people are willing to pay for expensive decks. The format didnt really get cheaper when card quality dropped, the price of standard cards that won't be useful post rotation is the same as the cards that are now modern staples, that existed in standard, when they were in standard. Print an odd half dozen cards people will play in eternal formats per set, raise the baseline power level of cards, knock it off with the ETB effect cards, and then things like energy won't ever come up, and the health of the format is raised fairly dramatically.
Good bans, good for the format, doesnt fix format problems. Standard isnt appealing because very few of the cards have any sticking power in eternal formats.
Ferocidon was one of the pieces in a good red white dinosaur build and there probably isn't a replacement for it that is worthwhile.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This would all be a non-issue if standard sets had many powerful cards like they did prior to Theros. Modern and Legacy can adapt to new cards due to their vast pool of answers, and when standard is a good format and the rotations are slower, people are willing to pay for expensive decks. The format didnt really get cheaper when card quality dropped, the price of standard cards that won't be useful post rotation is the same as the cards that are now modern staples, that existed in standard, when they were in standard. Print an odd half dozen cards people will play in eternal formats per set, raise the baseline power level of cards, knock it off with the ETB effect cards, and then things like energy won't ever come up, and the health of the format is raised fairly dramatically.
Good bans, good for the format, doesnt fix format problems. Standard isnt appealing because very few of the cards have any sticking power in eternal formats.
So wizards, about how you reverted that rotation schedule back to a year, are you sure you really reverted it if you have to drop nuclear weapons on your rotating format? At this point they are training people to never buy good cards.
I really wish raptor didn't get banned. It was only in standard for a few months which is stupid. I would have rather just seen a Hazoret ban and nothing else. It's just sad to see a dino get banned when they are trying to make dinos a deck. Otherwise very happy with the bans. Energy was way to consistent compared to the rest of the format and RDW was winning matchups where it should have been bad.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I get the feeling that Wizards is adopting a far more aggressive approach to banning in recent years. For a long stretch it would take a lot for a card to get banned in Standard. Look at Faeries and Jund. Both those decks had periods where they were head and shoulders above anything else in the format and they never banned Bitterblossom or Bloodbraid Elf.
Good changes. RR and Energy have been extremely dominant. Hitting one without the other doesnt fix the problem.
Actually seeing a metagame develop will be a good thing. Players upset at the bannings should consider the health of the format before their own dollar.
I do agree with the criticisms of needing to ban energy in the first place. Kaladesh hasnt been a fun or good standard set in almost any regard since its launch from my understanding. CoCo pushed me away from standard, and I returned recently, often my standard tournaments wouldnt even fire. If this is the case globally, bannings are a good thing. This is emergency surgery, it'll do short term damage, but ultimately help the pre-rotation format more than a lot of players realize.
This would all be a non-issue if standard sets had many powerful cards like they did prior to Theros.
Good bans, good for the format, doesnt fix format problems. Standard isnt appealing because very few of the cards have any sticking power in eternal formats.
Completely with you here.
During CoCo there were a lot more people in standard but that was the first time people were getting fed up with playing because it wasn't fun. Dominance of one deck crushes standard.
Since then many things have kept going wrong because they purposely decided to dial back on everything except creatures.
Purpose = make cards people wanted to buy.
Purpose = address feedback that people didn't like their fattys countered or killed all the time.
Data collected from random sources instead of directly from the STANDARD COMMUNITY and PROS.
And most of the data focused on art, flavor, and extraneous trash that have nothing to do with format enjoyment and function.
My huge LGS prior to CoCo fielded 20-30 for standard every FNM plus 15-20 Modern same night.
The last 2 months have been 50-80 Modern FNM with zero standard firings.
Off day standard doesn't exist and used to fire regularly Tuesdays and Sundays.
This ban will give standard a chance to exist between now and Dominaria. If they're just BSing and don't REALLY change for that set I'm out. Can't wait any longer and waste time going to play for no fire FNMs.
They have stopped reprinting great/necessary cards in Standard to sell Modern Masters. Horrible choice and has diluted and harmed standard.
They need to completely abandon the 'new design direction' and go back to the basics of proper design filling needs of control, aggro, and midrange.
Stop saving printings for Modern Masters and print good cards in standard.
I'm playing wait and see because honestly, I don't think they solved anything. The most they did was buy some time and maybe change which few decks are the top ones. If they wanted to make the format more open they would have had to probably eliminate four key decks: Ramunap Red, Temur Energy, Approach, and basically The Scarab God.deck. The only reason The Scarab God didn't eat a ban is because of the price tag attached. If they banned that or Hazoret the Fervent people would be flipping tables and never coming back, especially if they paid 120 usd or more for the scarab man and 45-60 for a playset of hazoret.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I've had no desire to even think of playing Standard since before last rotation, and frankly that hasn't changed. If anything this just cements my earlier statement of needing a fairly decent length of time with no banning before I'll consider putting any money towards Standard. Unfortunately Wizards was in a lose-lose situation, albeit one they put themselves in to begin with. I do agree with what many others have said in that Wizards cannot ban their way to a good Standard. I think the NWO at this point is actually harming Magic and working against a balanced and diverse Standard. Personally I would love to see it done away with.
Players upset at the bannings should consider the health of the format before their own dollar.
This is an extremely inadequate argument, and this mindset is bad for the game. The health of the format does not rest on the shoulders of the game's consumer, but rather its creators. When said creators fail to balance their premier format it hurts everyone who plays the game in many ways, one of which costing us money to stay competitive in their game after they have failed to create a stable environment and the only fix they can seem to come up with is to hit the nuke button. Look at it however you will, these bannings have hurt the game over all, and if they continue will eventually crush whatever is left of consumer confidence resulting in a negative outcome for the game. Instead of pointing the finger at players to accept Wizards' folly, perhaps you should instead want to be pressuring the company making the game you are playing to take measures to avoid the need for bans to take place in a rotating format. I'm not saying that it wasn't needed, nor do I believe it was indeed needed that isn't my point. Some of us have lost to multiple bans stretching over the last year, and it is very frustrating. I know for me, if even one of my couple modern decks gets hit next month I am probably done, I will likely find some other interest to involve myself in until wizards can straighten out their act.
The problem right now is most people already are eschewing Standard. Rich mtg LGSs aren't firing Standard at all because they've destroyed the game.
Is it unfortunate they have to ban? yes.
But the difference is no one playing at all or some people feel like they can try again because the boring big bad is gone.
Honestly this set wasn't going to touch Energy or Ramred.
I'd just like to take a moment and bathe in the regret of everyone saying that Attune with Aether wouldn't be banned, especially when I first claimed it was the broken card back when Aetherworks Marvel was announced. The only surprising card was Ferocidon, which just sorta makes me wanna not brew with anything from Ixalan anynmore.
Look at that data. Ramunap Red had 60% winrate against everything save energy, good god.
I tried to tell people this lol. RR has always been the problem.
Ya that's why it took up half of the meta.
Oh wait.
That was Energy.
Go read their B&R article where they posted the stats.
RR is favored against everything they list except Temur Energy and posted routine 60+% winrates outside of the energy MU. That is extremely good for Standard.
Temur had a bunch of slightly-above-50% MUs with some decks and outright sub-50% (albeit narrow like 49%) winrates against other decks.
Several decks, like Approach and Tokens, can go over the top of Temur. I won't say "easily" because Temur is quite good, but the data shows that they were at least moderately successful in this.
But those decks couldn't beat RR to save their lives. Nothing could, except Temur.
Energy got hit because it was stale and people griped. This staleness and griping went from being normal "best deck blues" to being cause for health concern because of the OTHER deck that got hit in the bans which crushed everything except Temur Energy -and- won a PT.
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Standard: GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern: RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy: BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
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Oh well, such is life I guess.
... Rampaging ferocidon? Ruins has a replacement with the new flip land so I could see that, but they just ended all energy decks hardcore.
So wizards, about how you reverted that rotation schedule back to a year, are you sure you really reverted it if you have to drop nuclear weapons on your rotating format? At this point they are training people to never buy good cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
By nerfing energy they almost had to nerf RR too or we would be in the same boat, but with RR taking the place of energy...
Yeah, but I'd have hit the four drop slot instead of a card that is just a good value three drop. Ferocidon didn't see a lot if play like smugglers did and was often sideboard material.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I do find it interesting that, once again, cards are banned from Standard that are a virtual nonentity in the larger formats. I know I've pointed this out before, but seriously, consider it: Prior to the Kaladesh bans, every ban that ever happened in the history of Standard was of a card/deck that was, at least at the time, a major player in the larger formats (except for maybe Fluctuator). Stoneforge and Jace are still Legacy all-stars and got themselves banned in Extended (although that was just the shortened, 4-year Extended--though even if it was still the old 7-year Extended and they weren't banned, they would've been good). Affinity (post-Skullclamp ban) was a real force in Legacy and Extended (even if it only received a powerful deck that was a real force in Legacy and was judged to be powerful enough in Extended to be worth weakening. Skullclamp was Skullclamp. I'm not going to go through the Tempest/Urza's Saga block bannings individually but note how all of them were banned in larger formats or were, at the time, very relevant cards.
Sure, some of them have lost their luster. You barely see cards like Time Spiral or Fork played anywhere nowadays. But at least back then they were considered to be forces in the larger formats. Not these cards they just banned. Really speaks to how messed up Standard is if they're having to ban cards that are nonentities in formats like Modern.
You hit the nail on the head. How are you going to get people to invest money in decks where, not only are the cards unplayable outside of Standard, but they may also end up unplayable in Standard as well as the result of a ban?
The problem isn't that the cards are too powerful. As you point out, if that were the case, these cards would see some play in Modern at least.
My suggestion is a major change to how the Standard legal list is formed. I would propose that certain stabilizing cards be legal in Standard all the time, regardless of when they were last printed. I would propose for consideration: Doom Blade, Mana Leak, Lightning Strike, Disenchant, and Naturalize. All of these cards have been printed a bazillion times (maybe Mana Leak should see a reprint, not sure) such that they will be cheap to obtain forever. These cards help prevent certain degenerate strategies from getting out of control.
Energy was a huge failure on the part of R&D. It's not too powerful (when is the last time you've seen Aetherworks Marvel in Modern?). The problem is that they neglected to print anything that attacks Energy that is playable if you happen to not be playing against Energy.
I predict standard numbers will stay consistent at most LGS'.
The ban will:
-Bring back players who were tired of getting roflstomped by energy game after game after game, and people who want to brew their own cool decks and have a decent chance of winning
-Some energy players will be upset so they will probably stop coming for a bit
Actually seeing a metagame develop will be a good thing. Players upset at the bannings should consider the health of the format before their own dollar.
I do agree with the criticisms of needing to ban energy in the first place. Kaladesh hasnt been a fun or good standard set in almost any regard since its launch from my understanding. CoCo pushed me away from standard, and I returned recently, often my standard tournaments wouldnt even fire. If this is the case globally, bannings are a good thing. This is emergency surgery, it'll do short term damage, but ultimately help the pre-rotation format more than a lot of players realize.
This would all be a non-issue if standard sets had many powerful cards like they did prior to Theros. Modern and Legacy can adapt to new cards due to their vast pool of answers, and when standard is a good format and the rotations are slower, people are willing to pay for expensive decks. The format didnt really get cheaper when card quality dropped, the price of standard cards that won't be useful post rotation is the same as the cards that are now modern staples, that existed in standard, when they were in standard. Print an odd half dozen cards people will play in eternal formats per set, raise the baseline power level of cards, knock it off with the ETB effect cards, and then things like energy won't ever come up, and the health of the format is raised fairly dramatically.
Good bans, good for the format, doesnt fix format problems. Standard isnt appealing because very few of the cards have any sticking power in eternal formats.
GGGEzuri, Renegade LeaderGGG
BGMeren of Clan Nel TothGB
Dear Lord, yes! This mean speaks the Gospel
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Truth right here. Preach it Jesus!
Spirits
Yeah... I feel kinda stupid right now
Completely with you here.
During CoCo there were a lot more people in standard but that was the first time people were getting fed up with playing because it wasn't fun. Dominance of one deck crushes standard.
Since then many things have kept going wrong because they purposely decided to dial back on everything except creatures.
Purpose = make cards people wanted to buy.
Purpose = address feedback that people didn't like their fattys countered or killed all the time.
Data collected from random sources instead of directly from the STANDARD COMMUNITY and PROS.
And most of the data focused on art, flavor, and extraneous trash that have nothing to do with format enjoyment and function.
My huge LGS prior to CoCo fielded 20-30 for standard every FNM plus 15-20 Modern same night.
The last 2 months have been 50-80 Modern FNM with zero standard firings.
Off day standard doesn't exist and used to fire regularly Tuesdays and Sundays.
This ban will give standard a chance to exist between now and Dominaria. If they're just BSing and don't REALLY change for that set I'm out. Can't wait any longer and waste time going to play for no fire FNMs.
They have stopped reprinting great/necessary cards in Standard to sell Modern Masters. Horrible choice and has diluted and harmed standard.
They need to completely abandon the 'new design direction' and go back to the basics of proper design filling needs of control, aggro, and midrange.
Stop saving printings for Modern Masters and print good cards in standard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Gift
Control
Merfolk
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
This is an extremely inadequate argument, and this mindset is bad for the game. The health of the format does not rest on the shoulders of the game's consumer, but rather its creators. When said creators fail to balance their premier format it hurts everyone who plays the game in many ways, one of which costing us money to stay competitive in their game after they have failed to create a stable environment and the only fix they can seem to come up with is to hit the nuke button. Look at it however you will, these bannings have hurt the game over all, and if they continue will eventually crush whatever is left of consumer confidence resulting in a negative outcome for the game. Instead of pointing the finger at players to accept Wizards' folly, perhaps you should instead want to be pressuring the company making the game you are playing to take measures to avoid the need for bans to take place in a rotating format. I'm not saying that it wasn't needed, nor do I believe it was indeed needed that isn't my point. Some of us have lost to multiple bans stretching over the last year, and it is very frustrating. I know for me, if even one of my couple modern decks gets hit next month I am probably done, I will likely find some other interest to involve myself in until wizards can straighten out their act.
Is it unfortunate they have to ban? yes.
But the difference is no one playing at all or some people feel like they can try again because the boring big bad is gone.
Honestly this set wasn't going to touch Energy or Ramred.
I tried to tell people this lol. RR has always been the problem.
LMAO at banning Lay of the Land
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Ya that's why it took up half of the meta.
Oh wait.
That was Energy.
Go read their B&R article where they posted the stats.
RR is favored against everything they list except Temur Energy and posted routine 60+% winrates outside of the energy MU. That is extremely good for Standard.
Temur had a bunch of slightly-above-50% MUs with some decks and outright sub-50% (albeit narrow like 49%) winrates against other decks.
Several decks, like Approach and Tokens, can go over the top of Temur. I won't say "easily" because Temur is quite good, but the data shows that they were at least moderately successful in this.
But those decks couldn't beat RR to save their lives. Nothing could, except Temur.
Energy got hit because it was stale and people griped. This staleness and griping went from being normal "best deck blues" to being cause for health concern because of the OTHER deck that got hit in the bans which crushed everything except Temur Energy -and- won a PT.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB