What would be really nice is if they announced instead of going to Dominaria they would just reprint Innistrad and we can just redo Inn-RTR standard for awhile.
His paragraph on Attune really does exemplify why Energy goes way over the top of everyone else. Play energy or play from behind. I'm warming to a ban because the deck will survive just fine, and Attune isn't an expensive card. It's seen plenty of reps, time to retire.
At least one of the big Dinos should have had reach. I guess the white one can eat Glorybringers...
His paragraph on Attune really does exemplify why Energy goes way over the top of everyone else. Play energy or play from behind. I'm warming to a ban because the deck will survive just fine, and Attune isn't an expensive card. It's seen plenty of reps, time to retire.
Yeah, the deck could lose it and keep right on chugging as a top tier deck, just not a deck that's a tier above all other decks. No wallets hurt. Just feelings.
The state of standard has really put me off the game and buying product in general. I used to play standard regularly but of the last six events every top 4/8 spots have been energy or RDW. Since Amonkhet I haven't bought a single booster or any sealed product in general. I've just found myself investing in Modern/EDH and just don't bother turning up to Standard events. I don't know if other people's experiences are similar, but this energy thing has been ongoing for an incredibly long time. The lack of interactability with energy pretty much kills much of a strategy and it's just a case of "win fast" or deal with their threats, empty their hand and hope they don't top deck a glorybringer/god while you find a way to whittle them down.
The state of standard has really put me off the game and buying product in general. I used to play standard regularly but of the last six events every top 4/8 spots have been energy or RDW. Since Amonkhet I haven't bought a single booster or any sealed product in general. I've just found myself investing in Modern/EDH and just don't bother turning up to Standard events. I don't know if other people's experiences are similar, but this energy thing has been ongoing for an incredibly long time. The lack of interactability with energy pretty much kills much of a strategy and it's just a case of "win fast" or deal with their threats, empty their hand and hope they don't top deck a glorybringer/god while you find a way to whittle them down.
People stopped playing when it was all CoCo.
More quit when it was cat combo.
A few more when it was all cheat your crap in turn 4 (Aetherworks BS).
Notice the 1-2 deck format is boring... quit or move to modern.
And now we have the same downward trend with boring and OP energy.
I don't know where Maro is getting his feedback but he is way behind the power curve.
High volume stores can't get Standard to fire and they tell them they're not allowed to give out the shiny packs for FNM.
No support for FNM at all with a declining game.
RIX doesn't look like it will break energy, again it'll give it another tool.
Plenty of people found Thragtusk objectionable in its time. IIRC, it nerfed Aggro pretty hard and people thought it was too easy to splash.
I don't see how someone can plausibly claim Thragtusk nerfed aggro pretty hard when Naya Blitz was one of the best decks while Thragtusk was legal. If Thragtusk "nerfed" aggro pretty hard then I'd be scared of how good aggro decks would've been if Thragtusk wasn't around.
It was a bit annoying how it seemed every non-aggro Green deck was running the card, though, especially early on. Thragtusk's prominence did fall off a bit after Gatecrash, however.
I had barely started playing Standard at the time, but when I look at the Inn-RTR standard, I find winning decks like this, this, this, this and this; with 5 drops, 24 lands and mana dorks. Is that your idea of Aggro? Because that looks like a nearly no-aggro meta to me, with midrange being called aggro by default. What am I missing?
Those decks aren't Naya Blitz. Examples of Naya Blitz are this, this, this, and this. Maybe I should've used the term "Naya Humans" to be a little more obvious the deck I was referring to.
Also, if there was anything that I felt hurt aggro, it wasn't Thragtusk, it was Bonfire of the Damned. I played aggro pretty consistently in that format, and while Thragtusk was annoying, it was beatable. There was no coming back from a topdecked Bonfire of the Damned (Brave the Elements helped but only came out towards the end of its Standard season). Someone can say that Supreme Verdict is no less of a blowout, but at least Supreme Verdict forced the opponent into playing a control strategy because it hits everyone, so even after your creatures getting destroyed you might be able to cast a few and then finish off the opponent with a few last bits of damage. Bonfire of the Damned left their creatures intact, so any offense could be thwarted by the creatures that were still there.
Bonfire of the Damned might have been one of my least favorite cards in the history of Standard, quite honestly. Ridiculously expensive on the secondary market, way too swingy, and mostly luck based. Thankfully the format as a whole was really good, but I always saw Bonfire as a major blight on it.
Those decks aren't Naya Blitz. Examples of Naya Blitz are this, this, this, and this. Maybe I should've used the term "Naya Humans" to be a little more obvious the deck I was referring to.
Also, if there was anything that I felt hurt aggro, it wasn't Thragtusk, it was Bonfire of the Damned. I played aggro pretty consistently in that format, and while Thragtusk was annoying, it was beatable. There was no coming back from a topdecked Bonfire of the Damned (Brave the Elements helped but only came out towards the end of its Standard season). Someone can say that Supreme Verdict is no less of a blowout, but at least Supreme Verdict forced the opponent into playing a control strategy because it hits everyone, so even after your creatures getting destroyed you might be able to cast a few and then finish off the opponent with a few last bits of damage. Bonfire of the Damned left their creatures intact, so any offense could be thwarted by the creatures that were still there.
Bonfire of the Damned might have been one of my least favorite cards in the history of Standard, quite honestly. Ridiculously expensive on the secondary market, way too swingy, and mostly luck based. Thankfully the format as a whole was really good, but I always saw Bonfire as a major blight on it.
Thanks! Yes, I agree that those are aggro decks. I want to respect your knowledge, as I was just starting competitive play at that time, and you were clearly much more involved. Further, I am not interested enough to really analyze that standard.
The mtgtop8 deck ID methodology leaves something to be desired, as that GP-winning deck is not identified as "Human," so I am not sure how often that archetype is correctly identified. Here it is listed at 3% of the metagame, so I am not sure that I would call it "one of the best decks." I also don't remember it as one of the best decks, FWIW.
When I google "thragtusk effect standard," I get articles like this, this, this and this. Just because some aggro decks were successful doesn't necessarily prove that Thragtusk didn't hurt the decks.
So, while I want to respect your experience, I am not really convinced. Can we pretend that we are arguing about relative degrees of nerfing?
Thanks! Yes, I agree that those are aggro decks. I want to respect your knowledge, as I was just starting competitive play at that time, and you were clearly much more involved. Further, I am not interested enough to really analyze that standard.
The mtgtop8 deck ID methodology leaves something to be desired, as that GP-winning deck is not identified as "Human," so I am not sure how often that archetype is correctly identified. Here it is listed at 3% of the metagame, so I am not sure that I would call it "one of the best decks." I also don't remember it as one of the best decks, FWIW.
The problem with that page is that it's the average for the full year. Naya Blitz/Humans, while a really good deck, didn't emerge until midway through the season (and also fell off a bit towards the end), so its metagame share for the full year is dramatically reduced because it wasn't around for a lot of the year. I suppose someone can claim that the fact the deck didn't emerge until later on disqualifies it as being one of the best decks, but when it did, it did it became a real pillar of the format.
The format was pretty midrange-y, I won't deny that, but I don't think aggro was particularly oppressed. There were enough aggro decks doing well that the archetype was highly viable.
When I google "thragtusk effect standard," I get articles like this, this, this and this. Just because some aggro decks were successful doesn't necessarily prove that Thragtusk didn't hurt the decks.
Well, Reid Duke's article was a speculative article before Thragtusk was ever released, so you can't really count that. The other articles were all a month or two into the format, and as I myself noted, Thragtusk had a much bigger impact on the format before Gatecrash than it did for the rest of the format. Sure, it was always around, but it was a smaller force because there were better ways to deal with it.
IMO I think Wizards is facing a very difficult decision right now. If they leave Standard as is, then there is the potential for interest to decrease further and sales of Standard product to decline even more. If they ban something, whether it be a card or cards, or all energy cards in general, then there is the very real consequence of consumer confidence plummeting even more. I've seen others say that "well you knew you were taking that risk buying into Standard", which to me is a perfect example of the problem at large. I shouldn't have to worry about cards from my deck potentially getting banned in Standard. I haven't played Standard in quite a long time, partly due to lack of any deck that really interests me, but also part because I have only so much money to spend at a time and don't want to get a deck to just see it get banned if it performs too well. Luckily it seems as though Wizards is taking steps to fix that issue, so I'll be cautiously optimistic for now.
I don't really feel that energy is a problem per se, rather the lack of any cost associated with using it. It seems as though there are two opinions in regards to Monday's announcement:
1) Don't change anything and lets see if the new set has any kind of impact (I'm of the opinion that it won't have any drastic impact).
2) Ban X card or cards, if not the entire mechanic.
I think there is a third option that Wizards could pursue that would potentially solve the issue while still letting energy be a viable strategy; errata.
Wizards has the power to errata any card, keyword, ability, etc... at any time if they deem it necessary. Perhaps something along the lines of "at the end of your turn, lose 1 life for any amount of energy above X" where X is some number they determine to be fair yet not overpowered. I'd suggest 3. Something like that would make energy more of an all-in type strategy if they wanted to go off in one turn, or a slower, incremental strategy if they wanted to build advantage over multiple turns.
Bans are something that should be used only as a last resort IMO, and while the case can and has been made for the ones in Standard thus far, I'd hate to see it become the new tool Wizards uses to diversify a format. Let's say they ban energy outright, then as others have stated there is a good chance that Ramunup Red will be the dominant deck in the format. Does that mean that Wizards then should ban something from that deck at the same time as a precaution? It's a very slippery slope to start down.
Personally, I hope cooler heads prevail and not a ban, but a different solution is reached to help with Standard. I also believe that it's time for the NWO to be done away with, but that's a different discussion for a different thread/time. I just know that as a consumer, if there is another ban in Standard, that I personally will not be looking to buy into/play Standard again until I see a good run of time with no bans to the format and will just stick to other formats till then.
Above article just up by Josh Silvestri covers the subject well. Design should listen to him since they don't listen to us.
Energy has had a long run. It's come down to being the one deck almost since it's legs and options are better than RR and it's damn mana is perfect. I feel like WotC's habit of banning TOO LATE is harmful. Cat combo could have be banned before the set was released.
Now we have a Spanky new set that looks completely limp in the face of Energy (I've been testing this is not imagination) and another 3 months of this is a big emergency. They won't be able to come up with an errata that would work unless you have to spend a mana for every energy used. The huge problem with energy is it's easy acquisition while advancing a powerful board and zero cost use. The mana has been set up way too well and no other deck can compete.
I'd love to see Merfolk, Vamps, and pirates flood in and take over but they all lack a piece to really make the top. Energy has access to all the pieces.
Can Energy players really say they haven't gotten the value out of their cards? Seems unlikely. When faced with LGS standard almost completely off the map, they have to do something, though I don't know that they will because frankly they don't seem to understand how bad they've made it... even though the pros are saying it straight to their faces.
Yeah; enough is enough. Banning a $0.50 common (Attune) that will not totally nerf the deck is the most obvious solution on Earth. Let them keep their toys. Just make it so that their mana base isn't 30x better than everyone else's.
Cycling is a real deck (IMO). If/when Energy loses a piece and tribal aggro starts to pick up in the meta after RIX comes out, I think things get healthier. I enjoy standard a lot right now, even when I have to play against Hazoret aggro or Energy every match in an FNM. All-in-all, Magic is still just as much a social game as a competitive one. For someone who doesn't want to shell out the money to play Energy, I'd say just build whatever you think is fun and get to know your LGS's scene better. Worst-case scenario is losing. Most people need to get better at doing that, anyways, based on this thread.
Wish that was the case everywhere but frankly so few people want to play standard that events don't fire. I'm not at a tiny LGS with no room or player base either. My store has capacity for 150 at pre releases and has a lot of people show up for FNM... just not for standard.
Cool you get to play, but lots of us cannot. Check out the article above from CH Fireball.
I think if Wizards had the guts, they would just have an early rotation. Push Kaladesh completely out like they had originally planned. It would instantly solve all the issues that the format currently sports and all of a sudden we have a brand new format with a ton of experimenting opened up. We all know that Amonkhet/Ixalan is underpowered and frankly, i think that's better for everyone involved. Underpowered set create a ton of good sub-set games (except for Chupacabra existing...aw well).
On the flip side, they could keep Kaladesh in and just say "all cards that create energy are banned". This means that cards that need energy to operate would be rendered pretty useless but you'd still have access to all the other stuff the block provides that isn't energy related.
Or they could just keep banning one or 2 cards and see what happens.
I think if Wizards had the guts, they would just have an early rotation.
Wotc attempted faster rotations a year or so ago to keep things fresh but had major blowback from players and shops -- mainly it's a hard sell to only have cards that were legal for such a short period of time.
2 years, apparently, is where more casual or less enfranchised players feel like they can invest into a format like standard.
Personally, I don't mind the supposed cash grab of a faster rotation cycle. I really enjoy new formats and such a rotation allows for more exploration.
I think if Wizards had the guts, they would just have an early rotation.
Wotc attempted faster rotations a year or so ago to keep things fresh but had major blowback from players and shops -- mainly it's a hard sell to only have cards that were legal for such a short period of time.
2 years, apparently, is where more casual or less enfranchised players feel like they can invest into a format like standard.
Personally, I don't mind the supposed cash grab of a faster rotation cycle. I really enjoy new formats and such a rotation allows for more exploration.
Oh I remember that, no worries. I was actually pretty bummed out that they went back on that. I really enjoyed earlier rotation while it lasted. However, what i'm trying to say here, is that they could solve the entire Kaladesh headache in one swift blow by rotating it earlier (as an exception, not the rule).
Major cards that we would lose:
All the fast lands (which will make the mana infinitely worse and Mono red infinitely better - eternal playable)
Chandra (however, she's played in eternal formats so the value won't drop that much)
A few of the vehicles (which aren't even played now anyways)
Harnessed Lightning (red control will die)
The gearhulks (death of grixis control)
I can't think of anything else right now but it would definitely give Merfolk a shot at being actually good.
Ferocidon was completely unwarranted and is the only thing that makes red able to compete with the slew of new aggro decks that will undoubtedly go wild because of the lack of energy decks.
Anytime except for FNM.
Friday is for FNM for obvious reasons.
His paragraph on Attune really does exemplify why Energy goes way over the top of everyone else. Play energy or play from behind. I'm warming to a ban because the deck will survive just fine, and Attune isn't an expensive card. It's seen plenty of reps, time to retire.
At least one of the big Dinos should have had reach. I guess the white one can eat Glorybringers...
Yeah, the deck could lose it and keep right on chugging as a top tier deck, just not a deck that's a tier above all other decks. No wallets hurt. Just feelings.
Modern:R 8Whack R|W White Knights W
People stopped playing when it was all CoCo.
More quit when it was cat combo.
A few more when it was all cheat your crap in turn 4 (Aetherworks BS).
Notice the 1-2 deck format is boring... quit or move to modern.
And now we have the same downward trend with boring and OP energy.
I don't know where Maro is getting his feedback but he is way behind the power curve.
High volume stores can't get Standard to fire and they tell them they're not allowed to give out the shiny packs for FNM.
No support for FNM at all with a declining game.
RIX doesn't look like it will break energy, again it'll give it another tool.
Also, if there was anything that I felt hurt aggro, it wasn't Thragtusk, it was Bonfire of the Damned. I played aggro pretty consistently in that format, and while Thragtusk was annoying, it was beatable. There was no coming back from a topdecked Bonfire of the Damned (Brave the Elements helped but only came out towards the end of its Standard season). Someone can say that Supreme Verdict is no less of a blowout, but at least Supreme Verdict forced the opponent into playing a control strategy because it hits everyone, so even after your creatures getting destroyed you might be able to cast a few and then finish off the opponent with a few last bits of damage. Bonfire of the Damned left their creatures intact, so any offense could be thwarted by the creatures that were still there.
Bonfire of the Damned might have been one of my least favorite cards in the history of Standard, quite honestly. Ridiculously expensive on the secondary market, way too swingy, and mostly luck based. Thankfully the format as a whole was really good, but I always saw Bonfire as a major blight on it.
The mtgtop8 deck ID methodology leaves something to be desired, as that GP-winning deck is not identified as "Human," so I am not sure how often that archetype is correctly identified. Here it is listed at 3% of the metagame, so I am not sure that I would call it "one of the best decks." I also don't remember it as one of the best decks, FWIW.
When I google "thragtusk effect standard," I get articles like this, this, this and this. Just because some aggro decks were successful doesn't necessarily prove that Thragtusk didn't hurt the decks.
So, while I want to respect your experience, I am not really convinced. Can we pretend that we are arguing about relative degrees of nerfing?
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
They really can't just go back and build sets like that?
The knowledge is gone?
We have to continue with this utter s**t they're presenting like a prize? More like a burning sandwich bag of poop on the porch.
The format was pretty midrange-y, I won't deny that, but I don't think aggro was particularly oppressed. There were enough aggro decks doing well that the archetype was highly viable.
Well, Reid Duke's article was a speculative article before Thragtusk was ever released, so you can't really count that. The other articles were all a month or two into the format, and as I myself noted, Thragtusk had a much bigger impact on the format before Gatecrash than it did for the rest of the format. Sure, it was always around, but it was a smaller force because there were better ways to deal with it.
1 Negate
2 Attune with Aether
3 Servant of the Conduit
4 Harnessed Lightning
5 Rogue Refiner
6 Whirler Virtuoso
7 Bristling Hydra
8 Chandra's Defeat
9 Longtusk Cub
10 Fatal Push
source: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/standard
In future news, UG Merfolk looks like they can be a legit contender.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Perhaps an effort to help justify a ban on Monday?
I don't really feel that energy is a problem per se, rather the lack of any cost associated with using it. It seems as though there are two opinions in regards to Monday's announcement:
1) Don't change anything and lets see if the new set has any kind of impact (I'm of the opinion that it won't have any drastic impact).
2) Ban X card or cards, if not the entire mechanic.
I think there is a third option that Wizards could pursue that would potentially solve the issue while still letting energy be a viable strategy; errata.
Wizards has the power to errata any card, keyword, ability, etc... at any time if they deem it necessary. Perhaps something along the lines of "at the end of your turn, lose 1 life for any amount of energy above X" where X is some number they determine to be fair yet not overpowered. I'd suggest 3. Something like that would make energy more of an all-in type strategy if they wanted to go off in one turn, or a slower, incremental strategy if they wanted to build advantage over multiple turns.
Bans are something that should be used only as a last resort IMO, and while the case can and has been made for the ones in Standard thus far, I'd hate to see it become the new tool Wizards uses to diversify a format. Let's say they ban energy outright, then as others have stated there is a good chance that Ramunup Red will be the dominant deck in the format. Does that mean that Wizards then should ban something from that deck at the same time as a precaution? It's a very slippery slope to start down.
Personally, I hope cooler heads prevail and not a ban, but a different solution is reached to help with Standard. I also believe that it's time for the NWO to be done away with, but that's a different discussion for a different thread/time. I just know that as a consumer, if there is another ban in Standard, that I personally will not be looking to buy into/play Standard again until I see a good run of time with no bans to the format and will just stick to other formats till then.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.
Above article just up by Josh Silvestri covers the subject well. Design should listen to him since they don't listen to us.
Energy has had a long run. It's come down to being the one deck almost since it's legs and options are better than RR and it's damn mana is perfect. I feel like WotC's habit of banning TOO LATE is harmful. Cat combo could have be banned before the set was released.
Now we have a Spanky new set that looks completely limp in the face of Energy (I've been testing this is not imagination) and another 3 months of this is a big emergency. They won't be able to come up with an errata that would work unless you have to spend a mana for every energy used. The huge problem with energy is it's easy acquisition while advancing a powerful board and zero cost use. The mana has been set up way too well and no other deck can compete.
I'd love to see Merfolk, Vamps, and pirates flood in and take over but they all lack a piece to really make the top. Energy has access to all the pieces.
Can Energy players really say they haven't gotten the value out of their cards? Seems unlikely. When faced with LGS standard almost completely off the map, they have to do something, though I don't know that they will because frankly they don't seem to understand how bad they've made it... even though the pros are saying it straight to their faces.
UW Approach UW
EDH
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Cool you get to play, but lots of us cannot. Check out the article above from CH Fireball.
On the flip side, they could keep Kaladesh in and just say "all cards that create energy are banned". This means that cards that need energy to operate would be rendered pretty useless but you'd still have access to all the other stuff the block provides that isn't energy related.
Or they could just keep banning one or 2 cards and see what happens.
Wotc attempted faster rotations a year or so ago to keep things fresh but had major blowback from players and shops -- mainly it's a hard sell to only have cards that were legal for such a short period of time.
2 years, apparently, is where more casual or less enfranchised players feel like they can invest into a format like standard.
Personally, I don't mind the supposed cash grab of a faster rotation cycle. I really enjoy new formats and such a rotation allows for more exploration.
Oh I remember that, no worries. I was actually pretty bummed out that they went back on that. I really enjoyed earlier rotation while it lasted. However, what i'm trying to say here, is that they could solve the entire Kaladesh headache in one swift blow by rotating it earlier (as an exception, not the rule).
Major cards that we would lose:
All the fast lands (which will make the mana infinitely worse and Mono red infinitely better - eternal playable)
Chandra (however, she's played in eternal formats so the value won't drop that much)
A few of the vehicles (which aren't even played now anyways)
Harnessed Lightning (red control will die)
The gearhulks (death of grixis control)
I can't think of anything else right now but it would definitely give Merfolk a shot at being actually good.
It was a moved planned to help them sell more cards disguised as 'good for the format'.
The format was just fine for a long time without being shorter they just had to do their design job better.
Standard:
Attune with Aether is banned.
Rogue Refiner is banned.
Rampaging Ferocidon is banned.
Ramunap Ruins is banned.
Lets see what happens next!
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
C Long Live Eldrazi C