Standard has experienced attendance fluctuations, widespread dissatisfaction and multiple recent bannings. After a long period of relative stability, rotation and block design have changed multiple times over the last few years. There has been a proliferation of threads relating to the causes, state and possible solutions. In addition, these issues have crept into less ideal discussions. This thread is intended to focus the discussions of the health of standard, bannings, possible solutions and related subjects. Ideally, this discussion will be sophisticated, respectful and constructive. You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Standard issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules. Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Rotation and block design
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Standard finance
Archetype definitions
Format/metagame health, diversity, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
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No format bashing. If you don't like Standard, that's fine, but constructively/respectfully explain why and be constructive.
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B&R Announcement Schedule:
"Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday." from here.
In theory, the list of banned cards is here. It doesn't seem to be updated yet, but it has the previously banned cards listed.
Keep certain historically iconic cards in Standard
Eliminate vehicles
Make answers more powerful or threats weaker
This OP was adapted from the similar (and IMO, excellent) Modern Thread OP. All credit for appropriated ideas and wordings belongs rightfully to ktkenshinx and any collaborators.
This thread is intended to focus and deepen discussion of the state of standard while maintaining a more orderly Standard Main. At this point, this is a proposal and invitation for feedback. If the feedback between now and 6/16/17 is generally positive, this will be the only acceptable place (edit) in the Standard Forum(/edit) to discuss these subjects relevant to standard. A poll and feedback thread will be put up to collect that feedback.
Constructive suggestions as to how to improve this thread and references to other relevant discussion will always be welcome in this thread.
Edit: With minimal strictly positive feedback and a good constructive discussion to start, this is now the official State of Standard thread.
I think this is a good idea moving forward. Albeit there are a few threads in other places like the general forums where this kind of thing may pop up and is a reasonable topic of discussion as well, such as the "What's wrong with todays magic" thread in general right now. But yeah, this exact style of thread has helped clean up the modern forum quite a bit.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Simplest answer: print stronger reactive/answer cards and/or decrease the power level of the proactive cards
I don't know why they ever moved away from this but Magic had close to a perfect balance in the past, and now it's skewed towards the proactive side. At least they now admit this and are working to fix it (we can hope)
I have also studied game theory, and as such, Frank Karsten's article was fascinating to me. Reflecting on recent sets and formats, I strongly suspect Wizards of the Coast has never, ever done an analysis of this type.
My experience with Kamigawa-Ravnica Standard was also very similar to Frank's, albeit at a much less competitive level. I have thought about this quite a lot over the years, and I strongly suspect that they haven't replicated what they did then because they don't know what they did then. I don't think they actually have a technical understanding of what Kamigawa-Ravnica was like and what gave it the characteristics that Frank was discussing.
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
I have also studied game theory, and as such, Frank Karsten's article was fascinating to me. Reflecting on recent sets and formats, I strongly suspect Wizards of the Coast has never, ever done an analysis of this type.
My experience with Kamigawa-Ravnica Standard was also very similar to Frank's, albeit at a much less competitive level. I have thought about this quite a lot over the years, and I strongly suspect that they haven't replicated what they did then because they don't know what they did then. I don't think they actually have a technical understanding of what Kamigawa-Ravnica was like and what gave it the characteristics that Frank was discussing.
The honest truth is that the last actively *good* standard I played in was RtR-THS. The format was reasonably diverse, with 4 Tier 1 decks (And yes, I consider G/R/x monsters Tier 1 as it showed up in a majority of Grand Prix top 8s and multiple Open top 8s, occasionally better represented than MBC), each of which had 1-2 popular variations that dramatically impacted the performance of the deck, and about a half a dozen Tier 2 decks that performed well in specific meta games. Equally, none of the major decks straight-up lost to each other, and instead focused a great deal on player skill. Yes, occasionally you got Thoughtseized out of the game, however more often the games were incredibly skill testing and each match up required forward thinking on how to move forward, and it varied significantly based on what you were playing against. Mono-U's game plan was markedly different if it was playing against UW control as compared to MBC or R/G, for instance. Each deck's decisions and priorities were markedly different based on what your opponent was playing, even in Game 1.
The largest fundamental issue with the format has to do with how poorly Born of the Gods fared in the format, as it actively made MBC better (By adding Bile Blight), while only adding Courser to Green (Which helped R/G decks significantly). It just didn't cause any change in the format, and it stagnated. Still, the format was overall a very healthy one.
I also feel that THS-KHK is vastly overrated as a format. While it was seemingly incredibly diverse, it also wasn't particularly engaging. Much of the time it felt as though games were on auto-pilot, and Siege Rhino largely ruined the format due to how absurd it was (Or rather, it was the nougaty center of the absurdly pushed Abzan archetype in Khans block). You could build a deck that stood a reasonable chance against the 60% or so of the field that wasn't Abzan, or you could build a deck that was good against Abzan but couldn't do well against the others, but there was very little overlap between the two concept of decks. If you tried to beat Abzan but got paired against not-Abzan, you were in for a miserable time and vice-versa. Or you could just play Abzan, and have about a 50-60% winrate against the rest of the field. And the decks that were good against Abzan could just be beaten out by running Rhinos (Which I still maintain was a poorly developed and designed card). Still, it was functional, just frustratingly annoying due to how pushed G/W/B was in THS-Khans. It was also the start of the Philosophical changes in R&D that led to the current mess, and you can see some of the impacts in THS-Khans standard because of this (Weaker removal/counter magic that is only situational, pushed keynote threats, etc). It's no small wonder that Standard more or less started to go to complete crap following THS rotating out (Which had reasonably good to strong interactive cards.
Anyway, the long of the short of it is this:
Deck diversity in and of itself isn't the only thing that matters (And people who hold it as the gospel truth are missing a huge point of what makes a format healthy); diversity of gameplay does. If all the best decks in the format are largely trying to be proactive about their gameplan, then the format isn't a good one. Reactive spells force decks to construct themselves in less-linear fashions, and consider nonlinear gameplay patterns. For a good while now, we have had decks whose sole gameplan strategy is almost entirely to commit to a linear strategy and run over the opponent before you get run over. If you have 100 Linear decks in one Format, you may have a very "diverse" format looking at just the decks, however you do not have a diverse gameplay patter. It is far healthier, and more engaging, to have 5 decks in a format with wildly different strategies that are on a spectrum of Reactive to Proactive and Nonlinear to Linear. Give me the 5 deck format over the 100 deck format any day.
Deck diversity in and of itself isn't the only thing that matters (And people who hold it as the gospel truth are missing a huge point of what makes a format healthy); diversity of gameplay does.
That's a fair point. I'm thinking of the differences between, say, a Kamigawa-Ravnica era Hand in Hand deck (which was basically a goodstuff deck) and a Ravnica-Time Spiral era Whitemane Lion deck. Whitemane Lion was not a top-level competitive card in that era, but a deck based on that effect plays differently in different matchups - against blue it leverages flash, against aggro it leans on the card advantage from comes-into-play abilities, etc. One of the things that turned me off about some card pools was that every deck seemed to play in basically the same way.
I think this depends a lot on the designers and what sort of range of effects they manage to put in a Standard cardpool. It should even be possible occasionally to have decks that are the same color but play completely differently (like Hand in Hand versus Whitemane Lion).
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
The problems facing Standard today are exactly what knowledgable players predicted would happen when they started pushing creatures too hard and nerfing interactive spells and spells that don't directly relate to creatures. The game has become increasingly linear, answers are weak, and if you don't dedicate all of your answers to creatures then you are run over by pushed critters, but that results in non creature threats easily taking over games.
This is a result of the much maligned goal, state by Zach Hill but obviously not only his baby, of creating an optimal meta of 25% aggro, 25% midrange (creature based), 25% combo/ramp, 25% control. Creatures got pushed too far, answers severely restricted, fear of creating formats where combo can exist and therefore just choosing not to print real combo (instead focusing on ramp or cards like marvel that are about as combo as Elvish Piper) which means that when an actual combo sneaks through (or the card they pushed is too good), then there aren't reasonable answers because they didn't think to print them. And control being pushed to rely so heavily in walkers as their means of generating value and inevitability makes creatures even more important as the best way to deal with them.
Not a single one of the banned cards should have ever been banned if wizards didn't **** up their entire design philosophy. Print burn that doesn't suck and Chopper and Copy Cat aren't a problem. Print real discard and nothing banned is a problem. Print pithing needle and copy cat and vehicles and marvel aren't problems. Better removal, ***** just doom blade, and none of these cards are problems. Reflector mage isn't so good unless every deck relies on playing a ton of creatures.
Of course, making marvel etb tapped, copter crew for 2, Emrakul not be so pushed, reflector mage be a 2/2, those would have been fixes, but the overall design would be waiting for the next problem.
Basically, I feel vindicated for complaining about this 4 years ago, and many other posters should too.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm much happier with standard now that marvel is banned. Combo is oppressive without a good metagame check. No clue why they banned copter and emrakul when marvel was obviously the source of the problem all along. Now we can actually have midrange decks!
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How does Doom Blade help against Ulamog or Emrakul?
It doesn't, but those cards simply aren't a problem without Marvel, and wouldn't be a problem if there were reasonable answers to card like Marvel or it wasn't so pushed. Better counter magic, specifically something like mana leak at 2cmc, and reasonable discard, specifically duress, or reasonable answers like pithing needle, keep marvel from being broken. Those are cards that should be staple answers that are safety valves for the format. Ulamog rots in the hand without Marvel, unless you run hardcore ramp which makes for a far more linear deck that can't be ran alongside marvel. Even Emrakul isn't that terrible without being marveled out, you actually have to play out a delirium gameplan, and with any sort of reasonable grave hate, which should always be available, that's not particularly easy.
The only reason that ANY of these cards were overpowered in the format is because wizards intentionally made it so by removing the sort of cards that serve as safety valves. Emrakul, Marvel, and Copter were all pushed to show off their mechanics, with Em also being a story card, and wizards explicitly removed the cards that can answer those mechanics to let them shine. This problem was entirely self inflicted.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
How does Doom Blade help against Ulamog or Emrakul?
It doesn't, but those cards simply aren't a problem without Marvel, and wouldn't be a problem if there were reasonable answers to card like Marvel or it wasn't so pushed. Better counter magic, specifically something like mana leak at 2cmc, and reasonable discard, specifically duress, or reasonable answers like pithing needle, keep marvel from being broken. Those are cards that should be staple answers that are safety valves for the format. Ulamog rots in the hand without Marvel, unless you run hardcore ramp which makes for a far more linear deck that can't be ran alongside marvel. Even Emrakul isn't that terrible without being marveled out, you actually have to play out a delirium gameplan, and with any sort of reasonable grave hate, which should always be available, that's not particularly easy.
The only reason that ANY of these cards were overpowered in the format is because wizards intentionally made it so by removing the sort of cards that serve as safety valves. Emrakul, Marvel, and Copter were all pushed to show off their mechanics, with Em also being a story card, and wizards explicitly removed the cards that can answer those mechanics to let them shine. This problem was entirely self inflicted.
so in your opinion Mana Leak or similarly powerful counterspell should be always legal in standard?
At the most obvious level (call it level 0), this ban hoses people who play and own Marvel and all cards in the deck like Ulamog.
At level 1, the meta changes significantly. People who want to change their decks have an opportunity, people who wanted to coast will pay in their record if they don't change or pay in time if they feel compelled to adapt. For the more avid players, there is a real positive value to the meta changing.
In addition, this banning is well aimed, in my opinion. I built Marvel and won a Game Day with it, but didn't really enjoy playing it. I then turned to playing decks that could beat Marvel. Given that I don't enjoy playing counterspells, I observed and analyzed that my best strategy was to be aggressive, as allowing Marvel too many spins seemed foolish. Now all manner of midrange nonsense seems viable and I ike that. So I think this banning will create a more varied meta, with more midrange, control and even some real ramp.
At level 2, regular bannings seems lethal to hobbyist standard. For those who have the resources or pros who get paid, the cost may not be significant. But without Masterpieces, we are looking at the bulk of set value being in a few chase mythics. Think $40+ Jace, Gideon, Avacyn, Liliana, Chandra, etc. If the choice is between losing and paying exorbitant prices for a few cards, that is bad enough. When paying exorbitant prices to win leads to a significant loss of resources due to a banning, it seems much worse. For hobbyists with limited resources, this looks like a lose-lose situation. Without these players, local standard events and the incentive to buy new sets will diminish. Can the game grow and thrive without a stream of newer players entering through standard?
I think that bannings need to stop.
But how? For Wizards, learn from each of these bannings to design and test better.
There is something that Wizards could do to symbolically soften the blow of the next banning before the next banning. I have been mulling over the notion of compensation. The unfairness of having the value of our decks suddenly being ripped away is horrible. However, the logistical difficulties seem insurmountable.
Paying people based on the secondary market value seems difficult, expensive and unfair.
Redeeming cards seems awkward, as people may still want to still play with the cards in other formats and interacting with all the people who have the banned cards is expensive and logistically challenging.
Schemes that tie through LGSes could be prone to corruption and abuse.
So what can be done? Product is sort of free to Wizards. We all have DCI numbers. Every DCI number that plays in a given format is known. Wizards could mail a certificate for product (credit for packs or an event redeemable at a LGS or online retailer) for everybody who plays in a given format whenever it bans a standard card. This would at least reward the people who played the format, even though it wouldn't target the specific people who were injured and not relate to the extent of the injury. I think Wizards showing some concern for the standard player and recognizing the injury would be helpful.
How does Doom Blade help against Ulamog or Emrakul?
It doesn't, but those cards simply aren't a problem without Marvel, and wouldn't be a problem if there were reasonable answers to card like Marvel or it wasn't so pushed. Better counter magic, specifically something like mana leak at 2cmc, and reasonable discard, specifically duress, or reasonable answers like pithing needle, keep marvel from being broken. Those are cards that should be staple answers that are safety valves for the format. Ulamog rots in the hand without Marvel, unless you run hardcore ramp which makes for a far more linear deck that can't be ran alongside marvel. Even Emrakul isn't that terrible without being marveled out, you actually have to play out a delirium gameplan, and with any sort of reasonable grave hate, which should always be available, that's not particularly easy.
The only reason that ANY of these cards were overpowered in the format is because wizards intentionally made it so by removing the sort of cards that serve as safety valves. Emrakul, Marvel, and Copter were all pushed to show off their mechanics, with Em also being a story card, and wizards explicitly removed the cards that can answer those mechanics to let them shine. This problem was entirely self inflicted.
so in your opinion Mana Leak or similarly powerful counterspell should be always legal in standard?
Yes. Especially when the creatures are getting increasingly stronger against hard removal.
How does Doom Blade help against Ulamog or Emrakul?
It doesn't, but those cards simply aren't a problem without Marvel, and wouldn't be a problem if there were reasonable answers to card like Marvel or it wasn't so pushed. Better counter magic, specifically something like mana leak at 2cmc, and reasonable discard, specifically duress, or reasonable answers like pithing needle, keep marvel from being broken. Those are cards that should be staple answers that are safety valves for the format. Ulamog rots in the hand without Marvel, unless you run hardcore ramp which makes for a far more linear deck that can't be ran alongside marvel. Even Emrakul isn't that terrible without being marveled out, you actually have to play out a delirium gameplan, and with any sort of reasonable grave hate, which should always be available, that's not particularly easy.
The only reason that ANY of these cards were overpowered in the format is because wizards intentionally made it so by removing the sort of cards that serve as safety valves. Emrakul, Marvel, and Copter were all pushed to show off their mechanics, with Em also being a story card, and wizards explicitly removed the cards that can answer those mechanics to let them shine. This problem was entirely self inflicted.
so in your opinion Mana Leak or similarly powerful counterspell should be always legal in standard?
Without a doubt, without even the shadow of a doubt. Mana Leak is the perfect power level for standard and should be a staple, or rotated with similarly powered counters at 2cmc. Asking to wait to 3 mana to be able to have an answer for must answer threats is absurd. For counters to be viable you must be able to leave mana open for them, which means you give up your earliest turns and spend the mid game casting smaller spells. Needing to hold 3 vs 2 is major, and slows down control too much so that aggro can finish it off too reliably, which makes permission too weak to police the format. This drives control decks to seek out proactive solutions, which means planeswalkers as plan A, and they become basically slower midrange decks rather than the sort of control decks capable of policing combo. Or they become light control shells running combo, like some Marvel decks.
The last time mana leak was legal, it was fine. People will cry about it, but they forget the reason UW was a boogyman was that it had accessed to hyper pushed creatures and planeswalkers. Caw blade was Jace and stone forge and swords. Geist had Geist being OP, and these were formats with better 1 mana blue cantrips than modern. Mana Leak is fine as long as it's not backing up obviously broken creatures or playing with both ponder and preordain, or both things at the same time. Those spells together would be a broken deck even with today's meager counter suite.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
How does Doom Blade help against Ulamog or Emrakul?
It doesn't, but those cards simply aren't a problem without Marvel, and wouldn't be a problem if there were reasonable answers to card like Marvel or it wasn't so pushed. Better counter magic, specifically something like mana leak at 2cmc, and reasonable discard, specifically duress, or reasonable answers like pithing needle, keep marvel from being broken. Those are cards that should be staple answers that are safety valves for the format. Ulamog rots in the hand without Marvel, unless you run hardcore ramp which makes for a far more linear deck that can't be ran alongside marvel. Even Emrakul isn't that terrible without being marveled out, you actually have to play out a delirium gameplan, and with any sort of reasonable grave hate, which should always be available, that's not particularly easy.
The only reason that ANY of these cards were overpowered in the format is because wizards intentionally made it so by removing the sort of cards that serve as safety valves. Emrakul, Marvel, and Copter were all pushed to show off their mechanics, with Em also being a story card, and wizards explicitly removed the cards that can answer those mechanics to let them shine. This problem was entirely self inflicted.
so in your opinion Mana Leak or similarly powerful counterspell should be always legal in standard?
Yes. Especially when the creatures are getting increasingly stronger against hard removal.
If every color could have its signature card always standard legal Mana Leak, Lightning Strike, etc...
I think Sam Stoddard was basically right when he said (and many users on here and elsewhere had been arguing all along) that the pendulum has swung too far away from answers. I can't help but fear that that middle ground might end up being elusive.
I remember when Rise of the Eldrazi first came out, my first thought on seeing the totem armor mechanic was that it was a good way to innovate on auras, but nobody would look at it regardless of what it said because of things like Back to Nature and Gatekeeper of Malakir. There have been a number of times recently when I was surprised they printed an obvious hoser of that type so close to a strategy that was supposed to be being encouraged. And more broadly, are we going to go back to everyone going "Well, it just dies to Doom Blade, so I'm not going to play any creature that doesn't have a sorcery stapled to it"?
But on the other hand, Standard with Rise of the Eldrazi had a diversity of deck types and play styles, so what do I know?
are we going to go back to everyone going "Well, it just dies to Doom Blade, so I'm not going to play any creature that doesn't have a sorcery stapled to it"?
It doesn't, but those cards simply aren't a problem without Marvel, and wouldn't be a problem if there were reasonable answers to card like Marvel or it wasn't so pushed. Better counter magic, specifically something like mana leak at 2cmc, and reasonable discard, specifically duress, or reasonable answers like pithing needle, keep marvel from being broken. Those are cards that should be staple answers that are safety valves for the format. Ulamog rots in the hand without Marvel, unless you run hardcore ramp which makes for a far more linear deck that can't be ran alongside marvel. Even Emrakul isn't that terrible without being marveled out, you actually have to play out a delirium gameplan, and with any sort of reasonable grave hate, which should always be available, that's not particularly easy.
The only reason that ANY of these cards were overpowered in the format is because wizards intentionally made it so by removing the sort of cards that serve as safety valves. Emrakul, Marvel, and Copter were all pushed to show off their mechanics, with Em also being a story card, and wizards explicitly removed the cards that can answer those mechanics to let them shine. This problem was entirely self inflicted.
At the most obvious level (call it level 0), this ban hoses people who play and own Marvel and all cards in the deck like Ulamog.
At level 1, the meta changes significantly. People who want to change their decks have an opportunity, people who wanted to coast will pay in their record if they don't change or pay in time if they feel compelled to adapt. For the more avid players, there is a real positive value to the meta changing.
In addition, this banning is well aimed, in my opinion. I built Marvel and won a Game Day with it, but didn't really enjoy playing it. I then turned to playing decks that could beat Marvel. Given that I don't enjoy playing counterspells, I observed and analyzed that my best strategy was to be aggressive, as allowing Marvel too many spins seemed foolish. Now all manner of midrange nonsense seems viable and I ike that. So I think this banning will create a more varied meta, with more midrange, control and even some real ramp.
At level 2, regular bannings seems lethal to hobbyist standard. For those who have the resources or pros who get paid, the cost may not be significant. But without Masterpieces, we are looking at the bulk of set value being in a few chase mythics. Think $40+ Jace, Gideon, Avacyn, Liliana, Chandra, etc. If the choice is between losing and paying exorbitant prices for a few cards, that is bad enough. When paying exorbitant prices to win leads to a significant loss of resources due to a banning, it seems much worse. For hobbyists with limited resources, this looks like a lose-lose situation. Without these players, local standard events and the incentive to buy new sets will diminish. Can the game grow and thrive without a stream of newer players entering through standard?
I think that bannings need to stop.
But how? For Wizards, learn from each of these bannings to design and test better.
There is something that Wizards could do to symbolically soften the blow of the next banning before the next banning. I have been mulling over the notion of compensation. The unfairness of having the value of our decks suddenly being ripped away is horrible. However, the logistical difficulties seem insurmountable.
Paying people based on the secondary market value seems difficult, expensive and unfair.
Redeeming cards seems awkward, as people may still want to still play with the cards in other formats and interacting with all the people who have the banned cards is expensive and logistically challenging.
Schemes that tie through LGSes could be prone to corruption and abuse.
So what can be done? Product is sort of free to Wizards. We all have DCI numbers. Every DCI number that plays in a given format is known. Wizards could mail a certificate for product (credit for packs or an event redeemable at a LGS or online retailer) for everybody who plays in a given format whenever it bans a standard card. This would at least reward the people who played the format, even though it wouldn't target the specific people who were injured and not relate to the extent of the injury. I think Wizards showing some concern for the standard player and recognizing the injury would be helpful.
Without a doubt, without even the shadow of a doubt. Mana Leak is the perfect power level for standard and should be a staple, or rotated with similarly powered counters at 2cmc. Asking to wait to 3 mana to be able to have an answer for must answer threats is absurd. For counters to be viable you must be able to leave mana open for them, which means you give up your earliest turns and spend the mid game casting smaller spells. Needing to hold 3 vs 2 is major, and slows down control too much so that aggro can finish it off too reliably, which makes permission too weak to police the format. This drives control decks to seek out proactive solutions, which means planeswalkers as plan A, and they become basically slower midrange decks rather than the sort of control decks capable of policing combo. Or they become light control shells running combo, like some Marvel decks.
The last time mana leak was legal, it was fine. People will cry about it, but they forget the reason UW was a boogyman was that it had accessed to hyper pushed creatures and planeswalkers. Caw blade was Jace and stone forge and swords. Geist had Geist being OP, and these were formats with better 1 mana blue cantrips than modern. Mana Leak is fine as long as it's not backing up obviously broken creatures or playing with both ponder and preordain, or both things at the same time. Those spells together would be a broken deck even with today's meager counter suite.
Now they make effective hate..... Like Sorcerer's Scope? Come on... with the release of Ixalon, they should unban all those standard bans, because we're finally seeing proper hate coming. Play two Scopes and you can effectively get what you need most of the time, just as it is for me in modern with pithing needle or phyrexian revoker. I'd prefer those, but this is nice with the added peek to a player's hand.
Course, I quit playing standard sometime after ugin's fate because I saw where the removal of core sets would lead. They'd no longer have a place to say where cards like blood moon, back to basics, or other good nonbasic land hate could go. They no longer would have good places to put all the pithing needles, path to exiles, ghost quarters, and the like....
Like it or not, there needs to be a balance between power and hate. Too many good things without proper hate leads to the need for standard bans.
It wasn't Copy Cat that made the deck too powerful, it was what the deck was built around with copy cat and no good answers. Printing Protection of the Hekma is a nice concept, but unplayable at 5 mana. Make it 3 mana and then we should talk.
Little things like this is why I think standard is stupid, because I still don't like Splinter Twin being banned and I never even played with the deck.
Anyways, on to another rant.... Marvel...
Another card completely unplayable outside of standard is banned. And why is it banned? Oh, wait, that's right..... No hate. And I would have expected Emrakul to be unbanned with Marvel being banned because she's completely fair in a game where she can be cast for 7-9 mana on average..........................................................................................................................
To be honest with everyone, I just wish WotC would stop constantly banning cards like they are. I haven't seen this many bans since the days of Mirrodin and even then Mirrodin had proper hate but the bans were because the cards were utterly broken like Skullclamp and Chrome Mox. Not like it is now when Stony Silence can shut down all artifacts effectively neutralizing a third of the decks in the field and pithing needle effectively targeting another percentage of the field...
*sighs*
WotC is painting themselves into a corner, where people expect a ban every time a card becomes popular. And hitting things like Top in Legacy which hurt every deck except for Miracles was BS. Miracles a problem? The new ruling about split card CMCs and a ban to counterbalance would have done the trick. Instead, they went after a card that had made other decks able to stand up to the big boys.
Banning Git Probe made Death's Shadow and Storm better and effectively killed Infect from Modern.
Banning Marvel and Cat in standard.... Eh............................... Piss off. That's all I have to say about it. People moan about decks and styles of play... They cry when WotC printed good hate. And so WotC does the opposite and not print hate. They don't print Rest In Peace, Stony Silence, etc.... And we get a broken environment. And so they have no choice but to apply the ban hammer often because they kept refusing to make people feel bad for making cards that can apply pressure to decks like Marvel and Cats. Sorry guys, you did it to yourselves. Just as Frontier, a format I like the concept of, is doomed because people who play it don't want their perfect mana base disrupted by silly concepts like blood moon or ghost quarters. Or they don't like Stony Silence or Rest in Peace....
Until WotC prints the good hate to balance out the powerful abilities, I'll stay away from Standard. And yes, I like powerful cards. I love powerful combos. But even I understand that there needs to be a proper balance.
While I agree with you in general regarding the fact Standard got messed up due to lack of good answers, there are some statements you make that I don't think make much sense:
Course, I quit playing standard sometime after ugin's fate because I saw where the removal of core sets would lead. They'd no longer have a place to say where cards like blood moon, back to basics, or other good nonbasic land hate could go. They no longer would have good places to put all the pithing needles, path to exiles, ghost quarters, and the like....
Back to Basics was never printed in a core set and Blood Moon stopped after Ninth Edition, so I don't see how the removal of core sets had anything to do with that. What's really confusing, however, is your claim they no longer had places to put Pithing Needle, Path to Exile, and Ghost Quarter. None of those cards require a core set as shown by the fact they've been printed outside of them... heck, Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter were never printed in a core set!
There were problems with the removal of core sets, but the specific cards you're complaining about had nothing to do with whether there were core sets or not.
Little things like this is why I think standard is stupid, because I still don't like Splinter Twin being banned and I never even played with the deck.
Huh? Splinter Twin was never banned in Standard. Heck, ExarchTwin was a great example of how you can put a combo like that in Standard and not have it overtake the format if you have actually decent answers.
Anyways, on to another rant.... Marvel...
Another card completely unplayable outside of standard is banned. And why is it banned? Oh, wait, that's right..... No hate. And I would have expected Emrakul to be unbanned with Marvel being banned because she's completely fair in a game where she can be cast for 7-9 mana on average..........................................................................................................................
I can't tell if this final statement of yours is meant sarcastically or not. Emrakul was an issue in Standard even outside of Aetherworks Marvel decks. Of course, Emrakul wouldn't have been if there were hate cards (as you indicate), but as it was, Emrakul would've been an issue with or without Aetherworks Marvel (although, without Aetherworks Marvel, it might not have been an issue so big it was banworthy).
To be honest with everyone, I just wish WotC would stop constantly banning cards like they are. I haven't seen this many bans since the days of Mirrodin and even then Mirrodin had proper hate but the bans were because the cards were utterly broken like Skullclamp and Chrome Mox. Not like it is now when Stony Silence can shut down all artifacts effectively neutralizing a third of the decks in the field and pithing needle effectively targeting another percentage of the field...
But... Chrome Mox wasn't banned in Standard. I don't think it was ever even an issue in Standard.
*sighs*
WotC is painting themselves into a corner, where people expect a ban every time a card becomes popular. And hitting things like Top in Legacy which hurt every deck except for Miracles was BS. Miracles a problem? The new ruling about split card CMCs and a ban to counterbalance would have done the trick. Instead, they went after a card that had made other decks able to stand up to the big boys.
Sensei's Divining Top was probably the right choice, quite frankly. In addition to its issues in Miracles, it also had the problem of wasting time, so it made sense to ban that over Counterbalance.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say when it "made other decks able to stand up to the big boys." What decks? Outside of Miracles, the decks that ran Sensei's Divining Top are either perfectly fine without it (e.g. Storm) or were fringe even with Top and thus weren't able to "stand up to the big boys" to begin with. Heck, I played one of those decks.
Agreed Seth. I think, without digressing too much into SCD, that its worth discussing what Em without Marvel would have been.
Before Marvel, it was a strong finisher for BG Delirium, one of the strongest cards in a strong deck.
Does BG post Aether Revolt end up splitting between counters focused snek builds and hardcore delirium builds, or does snek just add Em and lean a bit more to delirium than it does now? Would the latter make that deck too powerful?
This is a card that, even without solid hate and working with a deck that was pushed, might still not need a ban. With hate, its definitely fine.
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I think I'm going to echo the sentiment that they need to have staple cards reprinted into standard every set and maybe define a cycle of cards that will always be in rotation at all times. Doom blade, Mana Leak, Lightning Strike, Giant Growth, and I have no idea what would be good for white. I think Giant Growth is fine in standard even though it is a one mana instant.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think I'm going to echo the sentiment that they need to have staple cards reprinted into standard every set and maybe define a cycle of cards that will always be in rotation at all times. Doom blade, Mana Leak, Lightning Strike, Giant Growth, and I have no idea what would be good for white. I think Giant Growth is fine in standard even though it is a one mana instant.
There's absolutely no question Giant Growth would be fine in Standard because it's not even that good in Standard. The card's never been a real force in Standard. Funnily enough, the one time Giant Growth would have been amazing, when Infect creatures were around, was it wasn't legal.
Beyond that, while I think cards like those should be legal constantly, I'm not necessarily a fan of always having the same ol' boring cards be legal. Mana Leak gets stale after a while. I'd like to see things varied up a bit. For example, the Sorcerous Spyglass card that's apparently in Ixalan (2-mana Pithing Needle that lets you look at your opponent's hand before choosing your card) is a way to have an effect like Pithing Needle but still offering an extra twist on it, rather than just the same Pithing Needle card year after year.
I think I'm going to echo the sentiment that they need to have staple cards reprinted into standard every set and maybe define a cycle of cards that will always be in rotation at all times. Doom blade, Mana Leak, Lightning Strike, Giant Growth, and I have no idea what would be good for white. I think Giant Growth is fine in standard even though it is a one mana instant.
There's absolutely no question Giant Growth would be fine in Standard because it's not even that good in Standard. The card's never been a real force in Standard. Funnily enough, the one time Giant Growth would have been amazing, when Infect creatures were around, was it wasn't legal.
Beyond that, while I think cards like those should be legal constantly, I'm not necessarily a fan of always having the same ol' boring cards be legal. Mana Leak gets stale after a while. I'd like to see things varied up a bit. For example, the Sorcerous Spyglass card that's apparently in Ixalan (2-mana Pithing Needle that lets you look at your opponent's hand before choosing your card) is a way to have an effect like Pithing Needle but still offering an extra twist on it, rather than just the same Pithing Needle card year after year.
Back in RtR-THS days, there was Syncopate and Dissolve, and U/W control was quite good (On the back of quality removal), without being overly oppressive at all. If they are going to ram down 3 mana hard counters, they need to be comparable to at least Dissolve, which is a perfectly fine card. And there need to be a reasonably decent counter that you can cast on turn 2. We actually do have that now in Censor, which is fairly reasonable on turn 2 and not dead late game. That said, control just doesn't have the tools to deal with the board, particularly given that they have been printing more and more resilient threats that are more aggressively costed. Fumigate looks pretty silly next to an opponent with Gideons and Vehicles, or (previously) a Marvel, or G/B's ability to get out of control without committing to the board, etc and so forth. The problem is that Control just gets run over hard by Aggro because they have no means of stabilizing the board at all, and not much of a way of getting ahead in the game in the late game. It always seems like the advantages that control gains are middling at best.
And Midrange more or less just can't exist because the Aggro decks have creatures that are just as large or larger for half the cost, and things like Marvel made tapping out on turn 4 for anything else somewhat laughable.
Right now, things that hit the board just kind of stick there. There is so few actively good removal spells, and some of them just don't cut it. Meanwhile the quality of threats is far higher than the removal that exists that nearly every threat is a must-answer threat from nearly every deck, but you just don't have the tools.
As a friend of mine puts it, nobody ever wins the game with removal. The notion that removal and other interaction pieces create worse formats is utterly bizarre to me, and I have no idea where this sort of theory-crafting came from. I remember when Stoddard was talking about hate in the format, and was explaining that Affinity standard was made worse because of all of the Artifact removal, because cool combo-esque artifact decks couldn't compete through the hate everyone was running. That's when I honestly realized Development was out of its damn mind. When you say that the problem with Affinity standard was there was too much Artifact removal, I pretty much lose all respect as you are utterly missing the woods for the trees on that one. Their entire philosophy is built around what they think is true, regardless of the fact that some of the healthiest formats and best formats existed with these tools.
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Standard has experienced attendance fluctuations, widespread dissatisfaction and multiple recent bannings. After a long period of relative stability, rotation and block design have changed multiple times over the last few years. There has been a proliferation of threads relating to the causes, state and possible solutions. In addition, these issues have crept into less ideal discussions. This thread is intended to focus the discussions of the health of standard, bannings, possible solutions and related subjects. Ideally, this discussion will be sophisticated, respectful and constructive. You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Standard issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
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The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post creative and useful thoughts.
B&R Announcement Schedule:
"Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday." from here.
In theory, the list of banned cards is here. It doesn't seem to be updated yet, but it has the previously banned cards listed.
More bannings announced on January 15, 2018 here.
From that page: "Next B&R Announcement: February 12, 2018"
Current Banned List
Relevant articles:
Current Related Standard Forum Threads:
Suggestions to improve Standard:
This OP was adapted from the similar (and IMO, excellent) Modern Thread OP. All credit for appropriated ideas and wordings belongs rightfully to ktkenshinx and any collaborators.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
At this point, this is a proposal and invitation for feedback. If the feedback between now and 6/16/17 is generally positive, this will be the only acceptable place (edit) in the Standard Forum(/edit) to discuss these subjects relevant to standard. A poll and feedback thread will be put up to collect that feedback.Constructive suggestions as to how to improve this thread and references to other relevant discussion will always be welcome in this thread.
Edit: With minimal strictly positive feedback and a good constructive discussion to start, this is now the official State of Standard thread.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't know why they ever moved away from this but Magic had close to a perfect balance in the past, and now it's skewed towards the proactive side. At least they now admit this and are working to fix it (we can hope)
My experience with Kamigawa-Ravnica Standard was also very similar to Frank's, albeit at a much less competitive level. I have thought about this quite a lot over the years, and I strongly suspect that they haven't replicated what they did then because they don't know what they did then. I don't think they actually have a technical understanding of what Kamigawa-Ravnica was like and what gave it the characteristics that Frank was discussing.
The honest truth is that the last actively *good* standard I played in was RtR-THS. The format was reasonably diverse, with 4 Tier 1 decks (And yes, I consider G/R/x monsters Tier 1 as it showed up in a majority of Grand Prix top 8s and multiple Open top 8s, occasionally better represented than MBC), each of which had 1-2 popular variations that dramatically impacted the performance of the deck, and about a half a dozen Tier 2 decks that performed well in specific meta games. Equally, none of the major decks straight-up lost to each other, and instead focused a great deal on player skill. Yes, occasionally you got Thoughtseized out of the game, however more often the games were incredibly skill testing and each match up required forward thinking on how to move forward, and it varied significantly based on what you were playing against. Mono-U's game plan was markedly different if it was playing against UW control as compared to MBC or R/G, for instance. Each deck's decisions and priorities were markedly different based on what your opponent was playing, even in Game 1.
The largest fundamental issue with the format has to do with how poorly Born of the Gods fared in the format, as it actively made MBC better (By adding Bile Blight), while only adding Courser to Green (Which helped R/G decks significantly). It just didn't cause any change in the format, and it stagnated. Still, the format was overall a very healthy one.
I also feel that THS-KHK is vastly overrated as a format. While it was seemingly incredibly diverse, it also wasn't particularly engaging. Much of the time it felt as though games were on auto-pilot, and Siege Rhino largely ruined the format due to how absurd it was (Or rather, it was the nougaty center of the absurdly pushed Abzan archetype in Khans block). You could build a deck that stood a reasonable chance against the 60% or so of the field that wasn't Abzan, or you could build a deck that was good against Abzan but couldn't do well against the others, but there was very little overlap between the two concept of decks. If you tried to beat Abzan but got paired against not-Abzan, you were in for a miserable time and vice-versa. Or you could just play Abzan, and have about a 50-60% winrate against the rest of the field. And the decks that were good against Abzan could just be beaten out by running Rhinos (Which I still maintain was a poorly developed and designed card). Still, it was functional, just frustratingly annoying due to how pushed G/W/B was in THS-Khans. It was also the start of the Philosophical changes in R&D that led to the current mess, and you can see some of the impacts in THS-Khans standard because of this (Weaker removal/counter magic that is only situational, pushed keynote threats, etc). It's no small wonder that Standard more or less started to go to complete crap following THS rotating out (Which had reasonably good to strong interactive cards.
Anyway, the long of the short of it is this:
Deck diversity in and of itself isn't the only thing that matters (And people who hold it as the gospel truth are missing a huge point of what makes a format healthy); diversity of gameplay does. If all the best decks in the format are largely trying to be proactive about their gameplan, then the format isn't a good one. Reactive spells force decks to construct themselves in less-linear fashions, and consider nonlinear gameplay patterns. For a good while now, we have had decks whose sole gameplan strategy is almost entirely to commit to a linear strategy and run over the opponent before you get run over. If you have 100 Linear decks in one Format, you may have a very "diverse" format looking at just the decks, however you do not have a diverse gameplay patter. It is far healthier, and more engaging, to have 5 decks in a format with wildly different strategies that are on a spectrum of Reactive to Proactive and Nonlinear to Linear. Give me the 5 deck format over the 100 deck format any day.
That's a fair point. I'm thinking of the differences between, say, a Kamigawa-Ravnica era Hand in Hand deck (which was basically a goodstuff deck) and a Ravnica-Time Spiral era Whitemane Lion deck. Whitemane Lion was not a top-level competitive card in that era, but a deck based on that effect plays differently in different matchups - against blue it leverages flash, against aggro it leans on the card advantage from comes-into-play abilities, etc. One of the things that turned me off about some card pools was that every deck seemed to play in basically the same way.
I think this depends a lot on the designers and what sort of range of effects they manage to put in a Standard cardpool. It should even be possible occasionally to have decks that are the same color but play completely differently (like Hand in Hand versus Whitemane Lion).
This is a result of the much maligned goal, state by Zach Hill but obviously not only his baby, of creating an optimal meta of 25% aggro, 25% midrange (creature based), 25% combo/ramp, 25% control. Creatures got pushed too far, answers severely restricted, fear of creating formats where combo can exist and therefore just choosing not to print real combo (instead focusing on ramp or cards like marvel that are about as combo as Elvish Piper) which means that when an actual combo sneaks through (or the card they pushed is too good), then there aren't reasonable answers because they didn't think to print them. And control being pushed to rely so heavily in walkers as their means of generating value and inevitability makes creatures even more important as the best way to deal with them.
Not a single one of the banned cards should have ever been banned if wizards didn't **** up their entire design philosophy. Print burn that doesn't suck and Chopper and Copy Cat aren't a problem. Print real discard and nothing banned is a problem. Print pithing needle and copy cat and vehicles and marvel aren't problems. Better removal, ***** just doom blade, and none of these cards are problems. Reflector mage isn't so good unless every deck relies on playing a ton of creatures.
Of course, making marvel etb tapped, copter crew for 2, Emrakul not be so pushed, reflector mage be a 2/2, those would have been fixes, but the overall design would be waiting for the next problem.
Basically, I feel vindicated for complaining about this 4 years ago, and many other posters should too.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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It doesn't, but those cards simply aren't a problem without Marvel, and wouldn't be a problem if there were reasonable answers to card like Marvel or it wasn't so pushed. Better counter magic, specifically something like mana leak at 2cmc, and reasonable discard, specifically duress, or reasonable answers like pithing needle, keep marvel from being broken. Those are cards that should be staple answers that are safety valves for the format. Ulamog rots in the hand without Marvel, unless you run hardcore ramp which makes for a far more linear deck that can't be ran alongside marvel. Even Emrakul isn't that terrible without being marveled out, you actually have to play out a delirium gameplan, and with any sort of reasonable grave hate, which should always be available, that's not particularly easy.
The only reason that ANY of these cards were overpowered in the format is because wizards intentionally made it so by removing the sort of cards that serve as safety valves. Emrakul, Marvel, and Copter were all pushed to show off their mechanics, with Em also being a story card, and wizards explicitly removed the cards that can answer those mechanics to let them shine. This problem was entirely self inflicted.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
so in your opinion Mana Leak or similarly powerful counterspell should be always legal in standard?
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At level 1, the meta changes significantly. People who want to change their decks have an opportunity, people who wanted to coast will pay in their record if they don't change or pay in time if they feel compelled to adapt. For the more avid players, there is a real positive value to the meta changing.
In addition, this banning is well aimed, in my opinion. I built Marvel and won a Game Day with it, but didn't really enjoy playing it. I then turned to playing decks that could beat Marvel. Given that I don't enjoy playing counterspells, I observed and analyzed that my best strategy was to be aggressive, as allowing Marvel too many spins seemed foolish. Now all manner of midrange nonsense seems viable and I ike that. So I think this banning will create a more varied meta, with more midrange, control and even some real ramp.
At level 2, regular bannings seems lethal to hobbyist standard. For those who have the resources or pros who get paid, the cost may not be significant. But without Masterpieces, we are looking at the bulk of set value being in a few chase mythics. Think $40+ Jace, Gideon, Avacyn, Liliana, Chandra, etc. If the choice is between losing and paying exorbitant prices for a few cards, that is bad enough. When paying exorbitant prices to win leads to a significant loss of resources due to a banning, it seems much worse. For hobbyists with limited resources, this looks like a lose-lose situation. Without these players, local standard events and the incentive to buy new sets will diminish. Can the game grow and thrive without a stream of newer players entering through standard?
I think that bannings need to stop.
But how? For Wizards, learn from each of these bannings to design and test better.
There is something that Wizards could do to symbolically soften the blow of the next banning before the next banning. I have been mulling over the notion of compensation. The unfairness of having the value of our decks suddenly being ripped away is horrible. However, the logistical difficulties seem insurmountable.
So what can be done? Product is sort of free to Wizards. We all have DCI numbers. Every DCI number that plays in a given format is known. Wizards could mail a certificate for product (credit for packs or an event redeemable at a LGS or online retailer) for everybody who plays in a given format whenever it bans a standard card. This would at least reward the people who played the format, even though it wouldn't target the specific people who were injured and not relate to the extent of the injury. I think Wizards showing some concern for the standard player and recognizing the injury would be helpful.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Yes. Especially when the creatures are getting increasingly stronger against hard removal.
Without a doubt, without even the shadow of a doubt. Mana Leak is the perfect power level for standard and should be a staple, or rotated with similarly powered counters at 2cmc. Asking to wait to 3 mana to be able to have an answer for must answer threats is absurd. For counters to be viable you must be able to leave mana open for them, which means you give up your earliest turns and spend the mid game casting smaller spells. Needing to hold 3 vs 2 is major, and slows down control too much so that aggro can finish it off too reliably, which makes permission too weak to police the format. This drives control decks to seek out proactive solutions, which means planeswalkers as plan A, and they become basically slower midrange decks rather than the sort of control decks capable of policing combo. Or they become light control shells running combo, like some Marvel decks.
The last time mana leak was legal, it was fine. People will cry about it, but they forget the reason UW was a boogyman was that it had accessed to hyper pushed creatures and planeswalkers. Caw blade was Jace and stone forge and swords. Geist had Geist being OP, and these were formats with better 1 mana blue cantrips than modern. Mana Leak is fine as long as it's not backing up obviously broken creatures or playing with both ponder and preordain, or both things at the same time. Those spells together would be a broken deck even with today's meager counter suite.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Mana Leak, Lightning Strike, etc...
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I remember when Rise of the Eldrazi first came out, my first thought on seeing the totem armor mechanic was that it was a good way to innovate on auras, but nobody would look at it regardless of what it said because of things like Back to Nature and Gatekeeper of Malakir. There have been a number of times recently when I was surprised they printed an obvious hoser of that type so close to a strategy that was supposed to be being encouraged. And more broadly, are we going to go back to everyone going "Well, it just dies to Doom Blade, so I'm not going to play any creature that doesn't have a sorcery stapled to it"?
But on the other hand, Standard with Rise of the Eldrazi had a diversity of deck types and play styles, so what do I know?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
THIS
THIS
WHOLEHEARTEDLY THIS
AND THIS
Course, I quit playing standard sometime after ugin's fate because I saw where the removal of core sets would lead. They'd no longer have a place to say where cards like blood moon, back to basics, or other good nonbasic land hate could go. They no longer would have good places to put all the pithing needles, path to exiles, ghost quarters, and the like....
Like it or not, there needs to be a balance between power and hate. Too many good things without proper hate leads to the need for standard bans.
It wasn't Copy Cat that made the deck too powerful, it was what the deck was built around with copy cat and no good answers. Printing Protection of the Hekma is a nice concept, but unplayable at 5 mana. Make it 3 mana and then we should talk.
Little things like this is why I think standard is stupid, because I still don't like Splinter Twin being banned and I never even played with the deck.
Anyways, on to another rant.... Marvel...
Another card completely unplayable outside of standard is banned. And why is it banned? Oh, wait, that's right..... No hate. And I would have expected Emrakul to be unbanned with Marvel being banned because she's completely fair in a game where she can be cast for 7-9 mana on average..........................................................................................................................
To be honest with everyone, I just wish WotC would stop constantly banning cards like they are. I haven't seen this many bans since the days of Mirrodin and even then Mirrodin had proper hate but the bans were because the cards were utterly broken like Skullclamp and Chrome Mox. Not like it is now when Stony Silence can shut down all artifacts effectively neutralizing a third of the decks in the field and pithing needle effectively targeting another percentage of the field...
*sighs*
WotC is painting themselves into a corner, where people expect a ban every time a card becomes popular. And hitting things like Top in Legacy which hurt every deck except for Miracles was BS. Miracles a problem? The new ruling about split card CMCs and a ban to counterbalance would have done the trick. Instead, they went after a card that had made other decks able to stand up to the big boys.
Banning Git Probe made Death's Shadow and Storm better and effectively killed Infect from Modern.
Banning Marvel and Cat in standard.... Eh............................... Piss off. That's all I have to say about it. People moan about decks and styles of play... They cry when WotC printed good hate. And so WotC does the opposite and not print hate. They don't print Rest In Peace, Stony Silence, etc.... And we get a broken environment. And so they have no choice but to apply the ban hammer often because they kept refusing to make people feel bad for making cards that can apply pressure to decks like Marvel and Cats. Sorry guys, you did it to yourselves. Just as Frontier, a format I like the concept of, is doomed because people who play it don't want their perfect mana base disrupted by silly concepts like blood moon or ghost quarters. Or they don't like Stony Silence or Rest in Peace....
Until WotC prints the good hate to balance out the powerful abilities, I'll stay away from Standard. And yes, I like powerful cards. I love powerful combos. But even I understand that there needs to be a proper balance.
Just my two credits,
Kaiyla
There were problems with the removal of core sets, but the specific cards you're complaining about had nothing to do with whether there were core sets or not.
Huh? Splinter Twin was never banned in Standard. Heck, ExarchTwin was a great example of how you can put a combo like that in Standard and not have it overtake the format if you have actually decent answers.
I can't tell if this final statement of yours is meant sarcastically or not. Emrakul was an issue in Standard even outside of Aetherworks Marvel decks. Of course, Emrakul wouldn't have been if there were hate cards (as you indicate), but as it was, Emrakul would've been an issue with or without Aetherworks Marvel (although, without Aetherworks Marvel, it might not have been an issue so big it was banworthy).
But... Chrome Mox wasn't banned in Standard. I don't think it was ever even an issue in Standard.
Sensei's Divining Top was probably the right choice, quite frankly. In addition to its issues in Miracles, it also had the problem of wasting time, so it made sense to ban that over Counterbalance.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say when it "made other decks able to stand up to the big boys." What decks? Outside of Miracles, the decks that ran Sensei's Divining Top are either perfectly fine without it (e.g. Storm) or were fringe even with Top and thus weren't able to "stand up to the big boys" to begin with. Heck, I played one of those decks.
Before Marvel, it was a strong finisher for BG Delirium, one of the strongest cards in a strong deck.
Does BG post Aether Revolt end up splitting between counters focused snek builds and hardcore delirium builds, or does snek just add Em and lean a bit more to delirium than it does now? Would the latter make that deck too powerful?
This is a card that, even without solid hate and working with a deck that was pushed, might still not need a ban. With hate, its definitely fine.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Beyond that, while I think cards like those should be legal constantly, I'm not necessarily a fan of always having the same ol' boring cards be legal. Mana Leak gets stale after a while. I'd like to see things varied up a bit. For example, the Sorcerous Spyglass card that's apparently in Ixalan (2-mana Pithing Needle that lets you look at your opponent's hand before choosing your card) is a way to have an effect like Pithing Needle but still offering an extra twist on it, rather than just the same Pithing Needle card year after year.
Back in RtR-THS days, there was Syncopate and Dissolve, and U/W control was quite good (On the back of quality removal), without being overly oppressive at all. If they are going to ram down 3 mana hard counters, they need to be comparable to at least Dissolve, which is a perfectly fine card. And there need to be a reasonably decent counter that you can cast on turn 2. We actually do have that now in Censor, which is fairly reasonable on turn 2 and not dead late game. That said, control just doesn't have the tools to deal with the board, particularly given that they have been printing more and more resilient threats that are more aggressively costed. Fumigate looks pretty silly next to an opponent with Gideons and Vehicles, or (previously) a Marvel, or G/B's ability to get out of control without committing to the board, etc and so forth. The problem is that Control just gets run over hard by Aggro because they have no means of stabilizing the board at all, and not much of a way of getting ahead in the game in the late game. It always seems like the advantages that control gains are middling at best.
And Midrange more or less just can't exist because the Aggro decks have creatures that are just as large or larger for half the cost, and things like Marvel made tapping out on turn 4 for anything else somewhat laughable.
Right now, things that hit the board just kind of stick there. There is so few actively good removal spells, and some of them just don't cut it. Meanwhile the quality of threats is far higher than the removal that exists that nearly every threat is a must-answer threat from nearly every deck, but you just don't have the tools.
As a friend of mine puts it, nobody ever wins the game with removal. The notion that removal and other interaction pieces create worse formats is utterly bizarre to me, and I have no idea where this sort of theory-crafting came from. I remember when Stoddard was talking about hate in the format, and was explaining that Affinity standard was made worse because of all of the Artifact removal, because cool combo-esque artifact decks couldn't compete through the hate everyone was running. That's when I honestly realized Development was out of its damn mind. When you say that the problem with Affinity standard was there was too much Artifact removal, I pretty much lose all respect as you are utterly missing the woods for the trees on that one. Their entire philosophy is built around what they think is true, regardless of the fact that some of the healthiest formats and best formats existed with these tools.