A recent article from CFB stated that when it comes to beating Marvel there are really only three options:
1. Play Marvel
2. Play a deck that can win if they don't T4 Ulamog
3. Play a deck that doesn't allow Marvel to ever resolve.
But there's another category that I and many others previously thought was impossible: Outracing Marvel. Finish off your opponent before T4.
Now that sounds impossible largely because of Woodweaver's Puzzleknot. But I've thought of a strategy that I think could. I do want to say that this strategy is not very consistent as it requires
1. You being on the play
2. You playing certain cards in the right sequence
3. The Marvel player NOT playing certain cards on turns 2 and 3
The list will be a slightly changed version to Patrick Dickmann's Jund Gods list (7-2 at the Pro Tour). The biggest difference is replacing 4 Heart of Kiran with 4 Reckless Bushwackers and playing Harnessed Lightning instead of Unlicensed Disintegration.
T1: Attune with Aether
T2: Voltaic Brawler
T3: Greenbelt Rampager + Reckless Bushwacker, attack for 11
T4: Either Harnessed Lightning + another Bushwacker OR another Rampager/2-drop + another Bushwacker.
For this to work the Marvel must NOT
Play Harnessed Lightning or Censor on Turn 2
Play Whirler Virtuoso on Turn 3
From what I've seen most Marvel players do the following:
T1: Attune
T2: Puzzleknot
T3: Rogue Refiner
If they do that, this strategy should work. I think this curve is feasible in that it has fairly lax requirements from the Marvel opponent but it does have rather strict requirements from you. So while I acknowledge it would not work all the time, I also don't thin it's impractical or extremely unlikely. At the very least I think this amount of pressure would severely punish them for not hitting Ulamog or Chandra on Turn 4.
Thats my idea but I've heard of others also brewing up ideas to outrace the T4 Ulamog (i.e. Mono red burn or RG Pummeled). What do you guys think? Do you have any ideas of outracing Marvel?
They need to ban Marvel itself. Ulamog is rotating out anyway but leaving Marvel unbanned means players will find other uses for it. We already know it will be used in Hour of Devastation for Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh.
Any type of card that lets you cheat cards for free is, has been, and always will be broken. This type of design flaw is something that us consumers who pay good money to play Magic cannot and should not tolerate.
Until that happens, we're stuck with Marvel as the best deck, and I believe the best way to beat is to outrace it.
They need to ban Marvel itself. Ulamog is rotating out anyway but leaving Marvel unbanned means players will find other uses for it. We already know it will be used in Hour of Devastation for Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh.
Any type of card that lets you cheat cards for free is, has been, and always will be broken. This type of design flaw is something that us consumers who pay good money to play Magic cannot and should not tolerate.
Until that happens, we're stuck with Marvel as the best deck, and I believe the best way to beat is to outrace it.
The difference between Bolas and Ulamog is in order to make the "most efficient" deck, you have to run 4C Marvel which isn't great. Also, Bolas can be countered unlike Ulamog. People say outrace because Ulamog shooting two lands on turn 4 is an auto-game over most of the time; Bolas can be Never'd. Ulamog can't. This is a format centered around Black and Blue in combination with other colors so we have to make adjustments. Banning Ulamog is the best option. Saying not to ban Ulamog is like saying they should unban Reflector Mage and Emrakul, The Promised End because they only have a few months left.
I don't agree with that either but I didn't come here to discuss the potential banning of Ulamog or Marvel. I'm here to discuss what ideas people may have on how to outrace Marvel before turn 4. I've shared my idea, do you have one to contribute?
I think we saw at the Grand Prix when EVERYONE builds their main decks against Marvel their low percentage 'I win' on turn 4 makes for hard going. The problem is once again that deck building is completely skewed to fight this one deck which is 'the tier one deck'. Look how many hate cards were in the top 8's mainboards vs Marvel.
Zombies is pretty much gone completely because it's terrible against Marvel.
Cheating in things as a major strategy (without more hoops to jump through) is BAD for magic. They should ban Marvel because they never should have printed it. As long as it's present it will be the main deck for cheating in all high costed threats. What's the point of making cards cost more (which is a balance thing) if there's always a way to roll the dice and vomit them to the board????
Maro needs to understand this, but who will get it through?
I don't agree with that either but I didn't come here to discuss the potential banning of Ulamog or Marvel. I'm here to discuss what ideas people may have on how to outrace Marvel before turn 4. I've shared my idea, do you have one to contribute?
The way to outrace Marvel is to try to push as much damage through you can via an aggressive strategy, or pilot a control build aimed at incremental card advantage and countering Marvel and/or energy generators like Whirler Virtuoso or Rogue Refiner. I play BW Zombies and Marvel isn't my problem matchup, especially on the play.
Postgame Sideboard, there is plenty of artifact removal for each color to be honest. Remember when Cat was on the prowl and most decks had to play sideboard as "seven ways to beat Saheeli plus general meta hate"? We have to do that again. Dispossess and Transgress the Mind are easy enough; in your colors, find what you can side in against that deck. Red has By Force, Green has plenty (Heroic Intervention), White has Forsake the Worldly, Black has Dispossess and Transgress the Mind; blue has Ceremonious Rejection and countermagic.
I bring up Ulamog being banned because when Nicol Bolas hits, you will lose two cards in hand but he has no way else of interacting with the board; Ulamog is a 10/10 Indestructible deck eater that exiles on cast. Take out Ulamog and the deck becomes much beatable (trust me, I pilot Aetherworks without Ulamog).
Tell us more: What is your strategy with BW Zombies? How would each turn play out? Can you feasible win by Turn 4?
I believe Marvel should be banned entirely because leaving it unbanned just leaves too many loose ends for the next however many months until Marvel rotates out. How do we know there won't be another card just like or worse then Ulamog in the next block? I just use Nicol Bolas as an example since that's people are talking about but it could be anything. Heck, even Marvel into Elder Deep-Fiend is not a bad alternative to Ulamog; sure it's much more manageable but it'll still be annoying as hell to deal with.
Artifact removals are not enough because they still get a spin from Marvel. Even if we Dispossess Marvel, they can still win with other means, most likely by making Thopters. I think if you're trying to win by sheer aggression, do not play Dispossess; you can't afford the tempo loss.
Tell us more: What is your strategy with BW Zombies? How would each turn play out? Can you feasible win by Turn 4?
I believe Marvel should be banned entirely because leaving it unbanned just leaves too many loose ends for the next however many months until Marvel rotates out. How do we know there won't be another card just like or worse then Ulamog in the next block? I just use Nicol Bolas as an example since that's people are talking about but it could be anything. Heck, even Marvel into Elder Deep-Fiend is not a bad alternative to Ulamog; sure it's much more manageable but it'll still be annoying as hell to deal with.
Artifact removals are not enough because they still get a spin from Marvel. Even if we Dispossess Marvel, they can still win with other means, most likely by making Thopters. I think if you're trying to win by sheer aggression, do not play Dispossess; you can't afford the tempo loss.
Anguished Unmaking typically does it. If they get to 6 energy, I just aim for the Woodweaver's Puzzleknot with Anguished and anticipate that first spin. If they don't resolve a turn three creature, they will be at 6 energy with a T1 Hub > Attune, T2 Hub > Woodweaver's. I'm not saying I always win 100%, but I can win at least 70% of my Game 1s. I literally lost the last time because I was trying to play around cards that I thought people played in Marvel decks. If they ban Marvel, what is up with all of this artifact-centric removal? Unless they have a ton of scary artifacts in HOU. I know sets are made beforehand but I mean c'mon. I've went against Marvel players that didn't see a single Marvel until late in matches.
Boros humans is pretty fast right now. You do have to hit the curve tightly and not lose your pump creatures but there is the T4-6 kill potential. The only trouble is to maximize that chance you have to cut removal, AND it feels like more of a T2.5 type deck against everyone else. Decastone can get rid of a resolved Ula if you play more mid and there's plenty of ways to get rid of marvel with white.
On topic: deck ideas that outrace Marvel (T4, arguably T5). Off topic: Anything else including spoiled cards, bannings, warping of formats and alternate targets for artifact removal. Please keep it on topic or I will have to lock it and/or provide warnings. - hoser2
The first deck in this article does rock a T3 kill, but whether that's enough to make it playable for you is an open question.
On topic: deck ideas that outrace Marvel (T4, arguably T5). Off topic: Anything else including spoiled cards, bannings, warping of formats and alternate targets for artifact removal. Please keep it on topic or I will have to lock it and/or provide warnings. - hoser2
The first deck in this article does rock a T3 kill, but whether that's enough to make it playable for you is an open question.
I was telling them each color that has an answer to it. Sorry, moderator. I think the deck is below Saheeli Cat and if anyone is scared of it, take the above suggestions. If not, don't complain to us for you not wanting to side against it. We all had to adjust for Saheeli Cat whether we liked it or not. There are answers. Find them. Wizards is trying and if they weren't, it'll be banned next Wednesday.
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"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
On topic: deck ideas that outrace Marvel (T4, arguably T5). Off topic: Anything else including spoiled cards, bannings, warping of formats and alternate targets for artifact removal. Please keep it on topic or I will have to lock it and/or provide warnings. - hoser2
The first deck in this article does rock a T3 kill, but whether that's enough to make it playable for you is an open question.
I was telling them each color that has an answer to it. Sorry, moderator. I think the deck is below Saheeli Cat and if anyone is scared of it, take the above suggestions. If not, don't complain to us for you not wanting to side against it. We all had to adjust for Saheeli Cat whether we liked it or not. There are answers. Find them. Wizards is trying and if they weren't, it'll be banned next Wednesday.
Why the **** are you talking about Saheeli Cat now? I've told you multiple times in this thread that the purpose is to talk about ways to outrace Marvel only, not about potential banning, artifact removal or anything else. Why do you purposely deviate away from this topic? If you're just a troll looking to get this thread locked down, then fine; I'll start a new one. If you want to talk about banning, artifact removals, etc. we can take it to another thread. But if you actually have some strategy on racing Marvel or constructive criticisms to strategies posted on this thread, then please contribute them.
Moderator: I've pushed for AnimAr_ to stay on topic. I don't know what you intend to do now but I've done my best to stay on topic here and I can't help it if others don't want to do the same.
On topic: deck ideas that outrace Marvel (T4, arguably T5). Off topic: Anything else including spoiled cards, bannings, warping of formats and alternate targets for artifact removal. Please keep it on topic or I will have to lock it and/or provide warnings. - hoser2
The first deck in this article does rock a T3 kill, but whether that's enough to make it playable for you is an open question.
I was telling them each color that has an answer to it. Sorry, moderator. I think the deck is below Saheeli Cat and if anyone is scared of it, take the above suggestions. If not, don't complain to us for you not wanting to side against it. We all had to adjust for Saheeli Cat whether we liked it or not. There are answers. Find them. Wizards is trying and if they weren't, it'll be banned next Wednesday.
Why the **** are you talking about Saheeli Cat now? I've told you multiple times in this thread that the purpose is to talk about ways to outrace Marvel only, not about potential banning, artifact removal or anything else. Why do you purposely deviate away from this topic? If you're just a troll looking to get this thread locked down, then fine; I'll start a new one. If you want to talk about banning, artifact removals, etc. we can take it to another thread. But if you actually have some strategy on racing Marvel or constructive criticisms to strategies posted on this thread, then please contribute them.
Moderator: I've pushed for AnimAr_ to stay on topic. I don't know what you intend to do now but I've done my best to stay on topic here and I can't help it if others don't want to do the same.
I literally put a solution in each color above. I'm bringing up the parallels to Cat for people to understand. That's all. No need to get angry over nothing. We're all going to still get killed by Ulamog in FNM tonight.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
On topic: deck ideas that outrace Marvel (T4, arguably T5). Off topic: Anything else including spoiled cards, bannings, warping of formats and alternate targets for artifact removal. Please keep it on topic or I will have to lock it and/or provide warnings. - hoser2
The first deck in this article does rock a T3 kill, but whether that's enough to make it playable for you is an open question.
I was telling them each color that has an answer to it. Sorry, moderator. I think the deck is below Saheeli Cat and if anyone is scared of it, take the above suggestions. If not, don't complain to us for you not wanting to side against it. We all had to adjust for Saheeli Cat whether we liked it or not. There are answers. Find them. Wizards is trying and if they weren't, it'll be banned next Wednesday.
Why the **** are you talking about Saheeli Cat now? I've told you multiple times in this thread that the purpose is to talk about ways to outrace Marvel only, not about potential banning, artifact removal or anything else. Why do you purposely deviate away from this topic? If you're just a troll looking to get this thread locked down, then fine; I'll start a new one. If you want to talk about banning, artifact removals, etc. we can take it to another thread. But if you actually have some strategy on racing Marvel or constructive criticisms to strategies posted on this thread, then please contribute them.
Moderator: I've pushed for AnimAr_ to stay on topic. I don't know what you intend to do now but I've done my best to stay on topic here and I can't help it if others don't want to do the same.
I literally put a solution in each color above. I'm bringing up the parallels to Cat for people to understand. That's all. No need to get angry over nothing. We're all going to still get killed by Ulamog in FNM tonight.
We didn't ask for a general solution in every color. We're discussing SPECIFICALLY strategies to get enough damage in against Marvel decks to win by Turn 4-5. The reason being that if you can apply enough damage and board pressure by Turn 4, then the Marvel player will lose if they don't hit Ulamog on Turn 4. Do you have any strategy like that to share on this thread?
I don't care about Marvel's parallels to Saheeli Cat or what artifact removals to use against Marvel. This isn't the place discuss that.
On topic: deck ideas that outrace Marvel (T4, arguably T5). Off topic: Anything else including spoiled cards, bannings, warping of formats and alternate targets for artifact removal. Please keep it on topic or I will have to lock it and/or provide warnings. - hoser2
The first deck in this article does rock a T3 kill, but whether that's enough to make it playable for you is an open question.
I was telling them each color that has an answer to it. Sorry, moderator. I think the deck is below Saheeli Cat and if anyone is scared of it, take the above suggestions. If not, don't complain to us for you not wanting to side against it. We all had to adjust for Saheeli Cat whether we liked it or not. There are answers. Find them. Wizards is trying and if they weren't, it'll be banned next Wednesday.
Why the **** are you talking about Saheeli Cat now? I've told you multiple times in this thread that the purpose is to talk about ways to outrace Marvel only, not about potential banning, artifact removal or anything else. Why do you purposely deviate away from this topic? If you're just a troll looking to get this thread locked down, then fine; I'll start a new one. If you want to talk about banning, artifact removals, etc. we can take it to another thread. But if you actually have some strategy on racing Marvel or constructive criticisms to strategies posted on this thread, then please contribute them.
Moderator: I've pushed for AnimAr_ to stay on topic. I don't know what you intend to do now but I've done my best to stay on topic here and I can't help it if others don't want to do the same.
I literally put a solution in each color above. I'm bringing up the parallels to Cat for people to understand. That's all. No need to get angry over nothing. We're all going to still get killed by Ulamog in FNM tonight.
We didn't ask for a general solution in every color. We're discussing SPECIFICALLY strategies to get enough damage in against Marvel decks to win by Turn 4-5. The reason being that if you can apply enough damage and board pressure by Turn 4, then the Marvel player will lose if they don't hit Ulamog on Turn 4. Do you have any strategy like that to share on this thread?
I don't care about Marvel's parallels to Saheeli Cat or what artifact removals to use against Marvel. This isn't the place discuss that.
Aggro based strategy in Red. Spin R/W Exert tonight and see if that works. That's the only deck that can win by T4-5 and is the fastest deck. Solution.
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"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
Artifact removals are not enough because they still get a spin from Marvel. Even if we Dispossess Marvel, they can still win with other means, most likely by making Thopters. I think if you're trying to win by sheer aggression, do not play Dispossess; you can't afford the tempo loss.
Removing a Marvel after it hits is perfectly fine. They get one spin, sure, but the likelihood of them hitting Ulamog in that spin, in the most favorable situation (they didn't draw any copies), is still roughly 40%. I agree that a deck like the RG Bushwhacker deck you're theorycrafting, or a Humans aggro deck, shouldn't play Dispossess.
I think the broader problem with a strategy like this one is that you end up in a very similar metagame space to Zombies, which means that people are packing cheap interaction and sideboard sweepers which are good against you. Your matchups against the field aren't likely to be very good -- UR Control in particular is packing a very strong interactive suite against your gameplan, and BG Constrictor can keep pace with you on the ground while packing better interaction and a better postboard plan. You're giving up a lot of % against the field to take this angle against Marvel...
...and here's the kicker: look at your sample game. Your conditions included them not having any interaction besides playing a Rogue Refiner on turn 3. Harnessed Lightning alone is enough to disrupt you for a turn, which lets Marvel come down and do its thing. You aren't even any more reliable at beating Marvel than any other deck trying to 20-spot them ASAP, since you're all-in on a swarm aggro plan that has a disclaimer of "this can't kill them before Marvel spin if they have any interaction beyond t3 Rogue Refiner."
If you want to beat Marvel playing fair, play BG Constrictor, period. Accept the fact that you lose about 6% of your games outright because they have turn-4 Ulamog and you have no way to beat it. Embrace the fact that you are 60-40 favored in the remaining 94% of the games of real Magic that Marvel has to play. Stop worrying about preventing their god draws and just play a really good deck that is incidentally a statistical favorite against Marvel.
R/g electrostatic pummeler can win by turn 4. If they puzzleknotted then you leave them at 3-6 and that's if you didn't have a voltaic brawler swing turn 3 and 4. If you have that then it's gg turn 4. At best that is. R/w humans or exert isn't the ONLY deck that can do it
Artifact removals are not enough because they still get a spin from Marvel. Even if we Dispossess Marvel, they can still win with other means, most likely by making Thopters. I think if you're trying to win by sheer aggression, do not play Dispossess; you can't afford the tempo loss.
Removing a Marvel after it hits is perfectly fine. They get one spin, sure, but the likelihood of them hitting Ulamog in that spin, in the most favorable situation (they didn't draw any copies), is still roughly 40%. I agree that a deck like the RG Bushwhacker deck you're theorycrafting, or a Humans aggro deck, shouldn't play Dispossess.
I think the broader problem with a strategy like this one is that you end up in a very similar metagame space to Zombies, which means that people are packing cheap interaction and sideboard sweepers which are good against you. Your matchups against the field aren't likely to be very good -- UR Control in particular is packing a very strong interactive suite against your gameplan, and BG Constrictor can keep pace with you on the ground while packing better interaction and a better postboard plan. You're giving up a lot of % against the field to take this angle against Marvel...
...and here's the kicker: look at your sample game. Your conditions included them not having any interaction besides playing a Rogue Refiner on turn 3. Harnessed Lightning alone is enough to disrupt you for a turn, which lets Marvel come down and do its thing. You aren't even any more reliable at beating Marvel than any other deck trying to 20-spot them ASAP, since you're all-in on a swarm aggro plan that has a disclaimer of "this can't kill them before Marvel spin if they have any interaction beyond t3 Rogue Refiner."
If you want to beat Marvel playing fair, play BG Constrictor, period. Accept the fact that you lose about 6% of your games outright because they have turn-4 Ulamog and you have no way to beat it. Embrace the fact that you are 60-40 favored in the remaining 94% of the games of real Magic that Marvel has to play. Stop worrying about preventing their god draws and just play a really good deck that is incidentally a statistical favorite against Marvel.
I fail to see how BG Constrictor is the best deck against Marvel. The deck's construction doesn't any make sense on how it can beat Marvel. The best start you can have is with Grim Flayer on T2, which can't attack until T3, at which point it attacks only as a 2/2. Assuming you hit delirium on T4, which is unlikely without the Delirium Enablers (Vessel of Nascency), his much power could you possibly have on the board by then? The main and likely only advantage is the mainboard Dissenter's Deliverance, but like I said before removing Marvel doesn't stop it from spinning nor does prevent them from winning via other means.
I get that if you can remove Marvel and last long enough in the mid game, BG Constrictor is great. But we're talking about outracing Marvel, and based on most BG Constrictor decks over seen in the last few GPS, none of them are made to race.
And to address your other comment: no I do not agree that UR control can take out the idea I'm theorycrafting. Yes they can sweep the board, but I'm planning to play resilient threats like Scrapheap Scrounger and the Gods. Even if they sweep, I will haveaready gotten in one attack with the Bushwacker and 2+ other creatures, and not to mention Greenbelt Rampager can survive Sweltering Suns. I agree that Zombies would be a tough match-up given thhatbthey can generate ground blockers more efficiently but I think the sheer aggression would overpower most control decks
The best start BG Constrictor can have against an uninteractive opponent actually involves Winding Constrictor into Rishkar, Peema Renegade into Nissa, Voice of Zendikar -2. If you're on the play and undisrupted, that's 16 damage before Marvel can come down, and nothing short of Ulamog can actually clean up that board state, so they have to have Marvel into Ulamog on the spot or they just die. If they find a way to fog you for a turn (Whirler Virtuoso with 3 energy leftover post-activation), you can blow up Marvel with Dissenter's Deliverance to take away their respin.
But here's the catch -- even a "normal" start of Flayer into Rishkar/Nissa or Constrictor into Ballista or whatever still generates plenty of pressure that your opponent will struggle to clean up. You don't have to have the nut draw to put them in a spot where only Ulamog can get the job done. You talk about "winning via other means," but nothing in the stock Marvel decks except Ulamog can actually deal with an X/5 reliably, and Chandra (their main alt win con) has to die to take out an X/4. The deck plays a ton of ways to get its guys into that range, and once you're doing that, no amount of grimy Virtuoso beats or Chandra sweeps can actually beat what you're doing.
The data we do have backs up this idea, too: Karsten has crunched the numbers from Amsterdam and Santiago and found that BG variants as a group (includes both Delirium and Energy, but all of them are Constrictor builds) have a composite 54% winrate against Marvel, which as you'll notice is the best such number of any archetype recorded in the data set. Whether you "fail to see" it or not is irrelevant, the deck has a winning fair plan against Marvel that's also generically good in the format.
As for your sticky threats, all of them except Scrounger get hit by counterspells 1-for-1 just fine. Rampager survives Sweltering Suns but isn't that hard to handle with Harnessed Lightning until you get multiples in play. You have stuff that makes sure you don't just fold to UR Control, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that UR Control is tuned to beat a pile of smallball beaters that cost 2+ mana. It's probably more even than I made it sound but I wouldn't want to face it with this hypothetical deck.
1. Play Marvel
2. Play a deck that can win if they don't T4 Ulamog
3. Play a deck that doesn't allow Marvel to ever resolve.
But there's another category that I and many others previously thought was impossible: Outracing Marvel. Finish off your opponent before T4.
Now that sounds impossible largely because of Woodweaver's Puzzleknot. But I've thought of a strategy that I think could. I do want to say that this strategy is not very consistent as it requires
1. You being on the play
2. You playing certain cards in the right sequence
3. The Marvel player NOT playing certain cards on turns 2 and 3
The list will be a slightly changed version to Patrick Dickmann's Jund Gods list (7-2 at the Pro Tour). The biggest difference is replacing 4 Heart of Kiran with 4 Reckless Bushwackers and playing Harnessed Lightning instead of Unlicensed Disintegration.
T1: Attune with Aether
T2: Voltaic Brawler
T3: Greenbelt Rampager + Reckless Bushwacker, attack for 11
T4: Either Harnessed Lightning + another Bushwacker OR another Rampager/2-drop + another Bushwacker.
For this to work the Marvel must NOT
Play Harnessed Lightning or Censor on Turn 2
Play Whirler Virtuoso on Turn 3
From what I've seen most Marvel players do the following:
T1: Attune
T2: Puzzleknot
T3: Rogue Refiner
If they do that, this strategy should work. I think this curve is feasible in that it has fairly lax requirements from the Marvel opponent but it does have rather strict requirements from you. So while I acknowledge it would not work all the time, I also don't thin it's impractical or extremely unlikely. At the very least I think this amount of pressure would severely punish them for not hitting Ulamog or Chandra on Turn 4.
Thats my idea but I've heard of others also brewing up ideas to outrace the T4 Ulamog (i.e. Mono red burn or RG Pummeled). What do you guys think? Do you have any ideas of outracing Marvel?
Any type of card that lets you cheat cards for free is, has been, and always will be broken. This type of design flaw is something that us consumers who pay good money to play Magic cannot and should not tolerate.
Until that happens, we're stuck with Marvel as the best deck, and I believe the best way to beat is to outrace it.
The difference between Bolas and Ulamog is in order to make the "most efficient" deck, you have to run 4C Marvel which isn't great. Also, Bolas can be countered unlike Ulamog. People say outrace because Ulamog shooting two lands on turn 4 is an auto-game over most of the time; Bolas can be Never'd. Ulamog can't. This is a format centered around Black and Blue in combination with other colors so we have to make adjustments. Banning Ulamog is the best option. Saying not to ban Ulamog is like saying they should unban Reflector Mage and Emrakul, The Promised End because they only have a few months left.
Zombies is pretty much gone completely because it's terrible against Marvel.
Cheating in things as a major strategy (without more hoops to jump through) is BAD for magic. They should ban Marvel because they never should have printed it. As long as it's present it will be the main deck for cheating in all high costed threats. What's the point of making cards cost more (which is a balance thing) if there's always a way to roll the dice and vomit them to the board????
Maro needs to understand this, but who will get it through?
The way to outrace Marvel is to try to push as much damage through you can via an aggressive strategy, or pilot a control build aimed at incremental card advantage and countering Marvel and/or energy generators like Whirler Virtuoso or Rogue Refiner. I play BW Zombies and Marvel isn't my problem matchup, especially on the play.
Postgame Sideboard, there is plenty of artifact removal for each color to be honest. Remember when Cat was on the prowl and most decks had to play sideboard as "seven ways to beat Saheeli plus general meta hate"? We have to do that again. Dispossess and Transgress the Mind are easy enough; in your colors, find what you can side in against that deck. Red has By Force, Green has plenty (Heroic Intervention), White has Forsake the Worldly, Black has Dispossess and Transgress the Mind; blue has Ceremonious Rejection and countermagic.
I bring up Ulamog being banned because when Nicol Bolas hits, you will lose two cards in hand but he has no way else of interacting with the board; Ulamog is a 10/10 Indestructible deck eater that exiles on cast. Take out Ulamog and the deck becomes much beatable (trust me, I pilot Aetherworks without Ulamog).
I believe Marvel should be banned entirely because leaving it unbanned just leaves too many loose ends for the next however many months until Marvel rotates out. How do we know there won't be another card just like or worse then Ulamog in the next block? I just use Nicol Bolas as an example since that's people are talking about but it could be anything. Heck, even Marvel into Elder Deep-Fiend is not a bad alternative to Ulamog; sure it's much more manageable but it'll still be annoying as hell to deal with.
Artifact removals are not enough because they still get a spin from Marvel. Even if we Dispossess Marvel, they can still win with other means, most likely by making Thopters. I think if you're trying to win by sheer aggression, do not play Dispossess; you can't afford the tempo loss.
Anguished Unmaking typically does it. If they get to 6 energy, I just aim for the Woodweaver's Puzzleknot with Anguished and anticipate that first spin. If they don't resolve a turn three creature, they will be at 6 energy with a T1 Hub > Attune, T2 Hub > Woodweaver's. I'm not saying I always win 100%, but I can win at least 70% of my Game 1s. I literally lost the last time because I was trying to play around cards that I thought people played in Marvel decks. If they ban Marvel, what is up with all of this artifact-centric removal? Unless they have a ton of scary artifacts in HOU. I know sets are made beforehand but I mean c'mon. I've went against Marvel players that didn't see a single Marvel until late in matches.
T2 Glory-Bound Initiate, swing for 3. No exert
17
T3 Combat Celebrant, grant haste, swing for 8 (exert both), untap Inciter and Glory bound, swing for 6 (exert Glory bound again).
3
T4 find a way to win. They're at 3.
The first deck in this article does rock a T3 kill, but whether that's enough to make it playable for you is an open question.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I was telling them each color that has an answer to it. Sorry, moderator. I think the deck is below Saheeli Cat and if anyone is scared of it, take the above suggestions. If not, don't complain to us for you not wanting to side against it. We all had to adjust for Saheeli Cat whether we liked it or not. There are answers. Find them. Wizards is trying and if they weren't, it'll be banned next Wednesday.
Why the **** are you talking about Saheeli Cat now? I've told you multiple times in this thread that the purpose is to talk about ways to outrace Marvel only, not about potential banning, artifact removal or anything else. Why do you purposely deviate away from this topic? If you're just a troll looking to get this thread locked down, then fine; I'll start a new one. If you want to talk about banning, artifact removals, etc. we can take it to another thread. But if you actually have some strategy on racing Marvel or constructive criticisms to strategies posted on this thread, then please contribute them.
Moderator: I've pushed for AnimAr_ to stay on topic. I don't know what you intend to do now but I've done my best to stay on topic here and I can't help it if others don't want to do the same.
I literally put a solution in each color above. I'm bringing up the parallels to Cat for people to understand. That's all. No need to get angry over nothing. We're all going to still get killed by Ulamog in FNM tonight.
We didn't ask for a general solution in every color. We're discussing SPECIFICALLY strategies to get enough damage in against Marvel decks to win by Turn 4-5. The reason being that if you can apply enough damage and board pressure by Turn 4, then the Marvel player will lose if they don't hit Ulamog on Turn 4. Do you have any strategy like that to share on this thread?
I don't care about Marvel's parallels to Saheeli Cat or what artifact removals to use against Marvel. This isn't the place discuss that.
Aggro based strategy in Red. Spin R/W Exert tonight and see if that works. That's the only deck that can win by T4-5 and is the fastest deck. Solution.
Removing a Marvel after it hits is perfectly fine. They get one spin, sure, but the likelihood of them hitting Ulamog in that spin, in the most favorable situation (they didn't draw any copies), is still roughly 40%. I agree that a deck like the RG Bushwhacker deck you're theorycrafting, or a Humans aggro deck, shouldn't play Dispossess.
I think the broader problem with a strategy like this one is that you end up in a very similar metagame space to Zombies, which means that people are packing cheap interaction and sideboard sweepers which are good against you. Your matchups against the field aren't likely to be very good -- UR Control in particular is packing a very strong interactive suite against your gameplan, and BG Constrictor can keep pace with you on the ground while packing better interaction and a better postboard plan. You're giving up a lot of % against the field to take this angle against Marvel...
...and here's the kicker: look at your sample game. Your conditions included them not having any interaction besides playing a Rogue Refiner on turn 3. Harnessed Lightning alone is enough to disrupt you for a turn, which lets Marvel come down and do its thing. You aren't even any more reliable at beating Marvel than any other deck trying to 20-spot them ASAP, since you're all-in on a swarm aggro plan that has a disclaimer of "this can't kill them before Marvel spin if they have any interaction beyond t3 Rogue Refiner."
If you want to beat Marvel playing fair, play BG Constrictor, period. Accept the fact that you lose about 6% of your games outright because they have turn-4 Ulamog and you have no way to beat it. Embrace the fact that you are 60-40 favored in the remaining 94% of the games of real Magic that Marvel has to play. Stop worrying about preventing their god draws and just play a really good deck that is incidentally a statistical favorite against Marvel.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I fail to see how BG Constrictor is the best deck against Marvel. The deck's construction doesn't any make sense on how it can beat Marvel. The best start you can have is with Grim Flayer on T2, which can't attack until T3, at which point it attacks only as a 2/2. Assuming you hit delirium on T4, which is unlikely without the Delirium Enablers (Vessel of Nascency), his much power could you possibly have on the board by then? The main and likely only advantage is the mainboard Dissenter's Deliverance, but like I said before removing Marvel doesn't stop it from spinning nor does prevent them from winning via other means.
I get that if you can remove Marvel and last long enough in the mid game, BG Constrictor is great. But we're talking about outracing Marvel, and based on most BG Constrictor decks over seen in the last few GPS, none of them are made to race.
And to address your other comment: no I do not agree that UR control can take out the idea I'm theorycrafting. Yes they can sweep the board, but I'm planning to play resilient threats like Scrapheap Scrounger and the Gods. Even if they sweep, I will haveaready gotten in one attack with the Bushwacker and 2+ other creatures, and not to mention Greenbelt Rampager can survive Sweltering Suns. I agree that Zombies would be a tough match-up given thhatbthey can generate ground blockers more efficiently but I think the sheer aggression would overpower most control decks
But here's the catch -- even a "normal" start of Flayer into Rishkar/Nissa or Constrictor into Ballista or whatever still generates plenty of pressure that your opponent will struggle to clean up. You don't have to have the nut draw to put them in a spot where only Ulamog can get the job done. You talk about "winning via other means," but nothing in the stock Marvel decks except Ulamog can actually deal with an X/5 reliably, and Chandra (their main alt win con) has to die to take out an X/4. The deck plays a ton of ways to get its guys into that range, and once you're doing that, no amount of grimy Virtuoso beats or Chandra sweeps can actually beat what you're doing.
The data we do have backs up this idea, too: Karsten has crunched the numbers from Amsterdam and Santiago and found that BG variants as a group (includes both Delirium and Energy, but all of them are Constrictor builds) have a composite 54% winrate against Marvel, which as you'll notice is the best such number of any archetype recorded in the data set. Whether you "fail to see" it or not is irrelevant, the deck has a winning fair plan against Marvel that's also generically good in the format.
As for your sticky threats, all of them except Scrounger get hit by counterspells 1-for-1 just fine. Rampager survives Sweltering Suns but isn't that hard to handle with Harnessed Lightning until you get multiples in play. You have stuff that makes sure you don't just fold to UR Control, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that UR Control is tuned to beat a pile of smallball beaters that cost 2+ mana. It's probably more even than I made it sound but I wouldn't want to face it with this hypothetical deck.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB