Premise: playing bad cards to beat good cards is a losing strategy
Vehicles, by almost completely eliminating Sorcery speed removal from T2 force the above premise and are at their core bad design. Vehicles (ok Heart of Kiran since that's the best vehicle and why play anything else right?) exemplify the 'pushed' mechanic and while it's early in a meta that is opened up quite a bit by the Felidar ban, still suffers from over-designed cards which can't help but dominate.
I will preclude the discussion by admitting that fatal push is awesome against Heart of Kiran however you still lose tempo because you have to wait for them to activate it. The only removal designed with vehicles in mind is Daring Demolition which is not type 2 playable and suffers from the WotC design flaw... don't counter or kill what we want you to play.
Tempo - when Heart of Kiran lands on turn 2, you now have to wait to do anything about it or you've filled your deck with cards that exclusively deal with just that leaving your entire 75 lesser than your opponent's. Ok there are a few cards to deal but the 'answers suck' line is in every single discussion and since we know it's true let's just talk pure design and how it's warping standard.
Should there be tempo cards? Sure. Should it be an entire category? Maybe... but the power level of such a card needs to be managed and it really seems like Heart of Kiran is just their next baby they don't want to get rid of. It makes any midrange deck a hybrid aggro/midrange deck. The fact that Gideon the Broken cuddles with it so perfectly is the sprinkles on the cupcake.
Casting costs are too simple and too little. Any deck can throw Heart in and make it work. The no creature/no planeswalker decks are rare... and no creature decks aren't working out these days. 2 generic mana is too easy. Hell we just had the whole 'colorless mana' block <cough lame> and that requirement was quite prohibitive. It kept cards in check. How about Thought-Knot for (4) instead of <>3? It would be in every single deck. Hmmm... vehicles...
Every creature becomes hasty... almost. I can return Scrappy or play any of the multitude of 3/2 or 3/1s (whole nother discussion there and attack every turn regardless of summoning sickness. It really feels like just one of these things might have been ok but all together and we are just broke.
Let's say Heart is banned and look at Aethersphere Harvester. I would still contend that card is broke because 1 power activation with a mechanic you cannot interact with (energy which is plentiful) is still warping. 3 cost is starting to make it less dominant but again sorcery speed removal is irrelevant since I'll just let you swing and get some life back on my turn.
I really feel the only way for vehicles to be ok is their casting costs have to be prohibitive.
My preference? Never print another vehicle ever again. Ever. Unless they change the mechanics of them. Make summoning sickness disqualify creatures from crewing. Make them cost specific mana to cast like gearhulks and cost more. Or better still... don't do that again.
I really believe that as Standard shakes out again, especially with Gideon lurking, Vehicles is going to maintain 40% of the meta and Heart is going to bleed into 60% of the viable decks, which by their numbers is too much.
I highly doubt vehicles will be printed again outside of a return to kaldesh block.
Of course they're slightly pushed, it's a new mechanic. Similar to delve, energy, infect, planeswalkers, phyrixian mana and pretty much any new addition to the game.
There is literally only 4 vehicles in the 'Mardu Vehicles' deck and only 4 walkers as well. It should just be called Mardu midrange.
I think, what you're actually arguing against is removal. In that you have a point. However, that's been said time and time again. This vehicle argument holds no water currently like it did with Smugglers Copter.
There is literally only 4 vehicles in the 'Mardu Vehicles' deck and only 4 walkers as well. It should just be called Mardu midrange.
Why play any besides the best one? The very fact that you have to crew vehicles limits the number you can play so 4 is the sweet spot. I'm not ok with midrange being as fast as aggro in a great many of their starts.
T3 4 dmg
T4 4-7 dmg
T5 11-14 dmg
While you have waited to remove via instant they just play another Gid or Heart. If the vehicle isn't in that deck Gideon isn't as much of a problem.
The only reason it sees play is Gidion. His +1 turns him into a creature instead of the usual 0 ability. Since his creature mode has always been the most used, it's a free activation for Heart. Without that fact, Heart wouldn't be in that deck because vehicles are, intrensicly, CA negitive. Copter saw play because of the strength of looting. Heart sees play only because of Gidion.
You're arguing against removal, not any particular card. Wizards has done that same thing since Khans and pushed white while lowering the quality of removal.
Mardu is not oppressive at all anymore, there are plenty of ways to beat the deck. Nothing more needs to be banned.
I would say I have to disagree with Mardu not being oppressive. I think it's one of the most oppressive decks ever piloted. Most of the creatures avoid sweepers, effective removal. The other half are hyper pushed, and allow the deck to to do things it should not be able to do. T2 and on, your opponent is immediately forced to play a defensive game, with very little that can be done about it, whoever is running on the defensive is praying to continue to answer threats, with very little hope of being able to do so, between Giddeon, Heart, Vetran Motorist, and it's own answers and draws.
Mardu is not oppressive at all anymore, there are plenty of ways to beat the deck. Nothing more needs to be banned.
Plenty of ways seems an enormously vague statement. Between Gideon and the Heart removing their threats is harder than it should be because of subpar removal, they totally negate sorcery speed removal, and sweepers are completely ineffectual.
This discussion isn't saying 'ban Heart' or Mardu vehicles is dominant, though I did make a prediction for the meta as it resolves. I'm saying vehicles as a mechanic are broken the way they've executed them.
AetherMarvel is a broken card too, cheating out massive things on turn 4 is stupid and lines up with their design philosophy for the past year plus. Without copycat GB strategies are doing well and they ARE good against Mardu so seeing it lose some ground is expected.
Mardu is not oppressive at all anymore, there are plenty of ways to beat the deck. Nothing more needs to be banned.
Plenty of ways seems an enormously vague statement. Between Gideon and the Heart removing their threats is harder than it should be because of subpar removal, they totally negate sorcery speed removal, and sweepers are completely ineffectual.
This discussion isn't saying 'ban Heart' or Mardu vehicles is dominant, though I did make a prediction for the meta as it resolves. I'm saying vehicles as a mechanic are broken the way they've executed them.
AetherMarvel is a broken card too, cheating out massive things on turn 4 is stupid and lines up with their design philosophy for the past year plus. Without copycat GB strategies are doing well and they ARE good against Mardu so seeing it lose some ground is expected.
Well my meta has had no problem pushing out mardu as hyper aggro decks are extremely hard for mardu to beat. Dunno about your meta. Vehicles are fine IMO but they were poorly executed. Design team in general sucks though. Need to get fresh blood in there for sure.
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Vehicles, by almost completely eliminating Sorcery speed removal from T2 force the above premise and are at their core bad design. Vehicles (ok Heart of Kiran since that's the best vehicle and why play anything else right?) exemplify the 'pushed' mechanic and while it's early in a meta that is opened up quite a bit by the Felidar ban, still suffers from over-designed cards which can't help but dominate.
I will preclude the discussion by admitting that fatal push is awesome against Heart of Kiran however you still lose tempo because you have to wait for them to activate it. The only removal designed with vehicles in mind is Daring Demolition which is not type 2 playable and suffers from the WotC design flaw... don't counter or kill what we want you to play.
Tempo - when Heart of Kiran lands on turn 2, you now have to wait to do anything about it or you've filled your deck with cards that exclusively deal with just that leaving your entire 75 lesser than your opponent's. Ok there are a few cards to deal but the 'answers suck' line is in every single discussion and since we know it's true let's just talk pure design and how it's warping standard.
Should there be tempo cards? Sure. Should it be an entire category? Maybe... but the power level of such a card needs to be managed and it really seems like Heart of Kiran is just their next baby they don't want to get rid of. It makes any midrange deck a hybrid aggro/midrange deck. The fact that Gideon the Broken cuddles with it so perfectly is the sprinkles on the cupcake.
Casting costs are too simple and too little. Any deck can throw Heart in and make it work. The no creature/no planeswalker decks are rare... and no creature decks aren't working out these days. 2 generic mana is too easy. Hell we just had the whole 'colorless mana' block <cough lame> and that requirement was quite prohibitive. It kept cards in check. How about Thought-Knot for (4) instead of <>3? It would be in every single deck. Hmmm... vehicles...
Every creature becomes hasty... almost. I can return Scrappy or play any of the multitude of 3/2 or 3/1s (whole nother discussion there and attack every turn regardless of summoning sickness. It really feels like just one of these things might have been ok but all together and we are just broke.
Let's say Heart is banned and look at Aethersphere Harvester. I would still contend that card is broke because 1 power activation with a mechanic you cannot interact with (energy which is plentiful) is still warping. 3 cost is starting to make it less dominant but again sorcery speed removal is irrelevant since I'll just let you swing and get some life back on my turn.
I really feel the only way for vehicles to be ok is their casting costs have to be prohibitive.
My preference? Never print another vehicle ever again. Ever. Unless they change the mechanics of them. Make summoning sickness disqualify creatures from crewing. Make them cost specific mana to cast like gearhulks and cost more. Or better still... don't do that again.
I really believe that as Standard shakes out again, especially with Gideon lurking, Vehicles is going to maintain 40% of the meta and Heart is going to bleed into 60% of the viable decks, which by their numbers is too much.
Of course they're slightly pushed, it's a new mechanic. Similar to delve, energy, infect, planeswalkers, phyrixian mana and pretty much any new addition to the game.
There is literally only 4 vehicles in the 'Mardu Vehicles' deck and only 4 walkers as well. It should just be called Mardu midrange.
I think, what you're actually arguing against is removal. In that you have a point. However, that's been said time and time again. This vehicle argument holds no water currently like it did with Smugglers Copter.
Why play any besides the best one? The very fact that you have to crew vehicles limits the number you can play so 4 is the sweet spot. I'm not ok with midrange being as fast as aggro in a great many of their starts.
T3 4 dmg
T4 4-7 dmg
T5 11-14 dmg
While you have waited to remove via instant they just play another Gid or Heart. If the vehicle isn't in that deck Gideon isn't as much of a problem.
You're arguing against removal, not any particular card. Wizards has done that same thing since Khans and pushed white while lowering the quality of removal.
I would say I have to disagree with Mardu not being oppressive. I think it's one of the most oppressive decks ever piloted. Most of the creatures avoid sweepers, effective removal. The other half are hyper pushed, and allow the deck to to do things it should not be able to do. T2 and on, your opponent is immediately forced to play a defensive game, with very little that can be done about it, whoever is running on the defensive is praying to continue to answer threats, with very little hope of being able to do so, between Giddeon, Heart, Vetran Motorist, and it's own answers and draws.
Behind the eyes of truth, is a world of illustions.
Dragon Riderof a Mist Dragonn anyway with the Dragon Riders Clan.
Plenty of ways seems an enormously vague statement. Between Gideon and the Heart removing their threats is harder than it should be because of subpar removal, they totally negate sorcery speed removal, and sweepers are completely ineffectual.
This discussion isn't saying 'ban Heart' or Mardu vehicles is dominant, though I did make a prediction for the meta as it resolves. I'm saying vehicles as a mechanic are broken the way they've executed them.
AetherMarvel is a broken card too, cheating out massive things on turn 4 is stupid and lines up with their design philosophy for the past year plus. Without copycat GB strategies are doing well and they ARE good against Mardu so seeing it lose some ground is expected.
Well my meta has had no problem pushing out mardu as hyper aggro decks are extremely hard for mardu to beat. Dunno about your meta. Vehicles are fine IMO but they were poorly executed. Design team in general sucks though. Need to get fresh blood in there for sure.