Except mono red is still a real deck. Burn may be worse but the archetype for aggro red is definitely there.
Kinda, Mono Red is tier 3 at best at the moment but people are brewing. I don't see RDW-Burn being anything in the format but a mono red Midrange maybe doable.
I mean you say its tier 3 and I disagree. Tier 1/1.5.
Except mono red is still a real deck. Burn may be worse but the archetype for aggro red is definitely there.
Kinda, Mono Red is tier 3 at best at the moment but people are brewing. I don't see RDW-Burn being anything in the format but a mono red Midrange maybe doable.
I mean you say its tier 3 and I disagree. Tier 1/1.5.
Likely somewhere in the middle say Tier 2, I hope I'm wrong and you are right though.
Wizards kinda reminds me of metallica, the better they became as musicians, the worse there music became.
I really just want my 1 drop mana dorks back, decent 2cmc counters, reasonable discard, Land destruction (Not a whole lot...), not a bunch of under costed creatures that ruin the feeling of fun in the game. I think Planeswalkers are a huge mistake in the game, especially since wizards refuses to give players any interaction with them. There are so many issues with the direction magic is going right now, and I think it's us as players, especially us long term players.... to speak up, and tell wizards this isn't alright.
I really think Wizards needs to ensure that certain archetypes are supported during a cycle. We should never have a time where we don't have Burn, UW Control, White Weenie, Green Ramp, and Big Red. I'm sure I'm missing some classic archetypes, but I feel those really defined the game. I'm a Burn player at heart. Every time a new set that comes out without a reprint of Lightning Bolt I ask myself if LB is really so powerful that it would warp standard? Is 3 damage to creature or player/planeswalker at Instant speed as broken as Cat combo? I don't think it is. For that matter, I don't think Mana Leak or Force of Will are too strong for Standard either.
I agree that if Burn and Blue Control were both viable in Standard that cards like Felidar Guardian and Reflector Mage wouldn't need to be banned. Well, maybe Reflector Mage. He's just super annoying.
Standard has some interesting things happening, now that Cat Combo is gone, but a stronger meta would have allowed room for the decks just now emerging without resorting to bans.
Wizards kinda reminds me of metallica, the better they became as musicians, the worse there music became.
I really just want my 1 drop mana dorks back, decent 2cmc counters, reasonable discard, Land destruction (Not a whole lot...), not a bunch of under costed creatures that ruin the feeling of fun in the game. I think Planeswalkers are a huge mistake in the game, especially since wizards refuses to give players any interaction with them. There are so many issues with the direction magic is going right now, and I think it's us as players, especially us long term players.... to speak up, and tell wizards this isn't alright.
I really think Wizards needs to ensure that certain archetypes are supported during a cycle. We should never have a time where we don't have Burn, UW Control, White Weenie, Green Ramp, and Big Red. I'm sure I'm missing some classic archetypes, but I feel those really defined the game. I'm a Burn player at heart. Every time a new set that comes out without a reprint of Lightning Bolt I ask myself if LB is really so powerful that it would warp standard? Is 3 damage to creature or player/planeswalker at Instant speed as broken as Cat combo? I don't think it is. For that matter, I don't think Mana Leak or Force of Will are too strong for Standard either.
I agree that if Burn and Blue Control were both viable in Standard that cards like Felidar Guardian and Reflector Mage wouldn't need to be banned. Well, maybe Reflector Mage. He's just super annoying.
Standard has some interesting things happening, now that Cat Combo is gone, but a stronger meta would have allowed room for the decks just now emerging without resorting to bans.
I agree, The classic archetypes should always be playable in standard. The first thing I look for when spoilers are up is usable instant speed burn spells. Wizards Doesn't seem to mind printing Instant speed removal in black (Looking at you Fatal Push)but they sure have been given red the shaft lately.
I've been going back through a lot of old sets, just looking at how wizards design philosophy has changed over the years, looking back specificly at Ice Age, and Mirage. Both of them were willing to explore unique and interesting cards, while keeping staples relevant. If they printed a creature that even felt a little pushed it was immediately offset with some sort of drawback to it. There were lots of different styles of cards, that did lots of different thing. Then I went and looked at some modern designed blocks, and realized there aren't interesting cards anymore, they are so homogenized that they feel stale. When the new idea of an interesting card is put +1/+1 counters on target creature(s).
I've been going back through a lot of old sets, just looking at how wizards design philosophy has changed over the years, looking back specificly at Ice Age, and Mirage. Both of them were willing to explore unique and interesting cards, while keeping staples relevant. If they printed a creature that even felt a little pushed it was immediately offset with some sort of drawback to it. There were lots of different styles of cards, that did lots of different thing. Then I went and looked at some modern designed blocks, and realized there aren't interesting cards anymore, they are so homogenized that they feel stale. When the new idea of an interesting card is put +1/+1 counters on target creature(s).
What I miss is the random stuff that didn't fit anything it was just a card. Remember Steamflogger Boss, and Artifacts that did stuff besides pumping dudes or ramping mana, like Cursed Scroll.
I love cards that just did interesting things, they weren't forced into any theme or mechanic just to bring continuity to the rest of the set. Anybody remeber Haunting Misery?
Haunting Misery was a really cool designed card . I think the random stuff has be lost over time. I don't know why wizards stop just making cards because the could and not because it has to work in the blocks Scheme .
Yep , that is the conclusion I have reached. Maybe wizards will scale back on the planeswalkers going forward. Surely if we have figure out why standard isn't fun they have. I do get they need chase rares to get people to open packs though, maybe they can find the right balance.
I don't see anything wrong with power cards, but they need to be balanced with fun cards, and yank back on competative group play. Maybe stop publishing decklists would be a good start?
There is a great line from a movie which best explains what is not in standard.
"See, I'm a man of simple tastes. I like dynamite, and gunpowder... And gasoline! Do you know what all of these things have in common? They're cheap!"
And this is what is missing from standard. Burn is clearly the best example of one deck missing, but there are others. Burn was burn because answers were printed in Common and Uncommon and simply put, the deck was cheap $$$$. Anyone with a few dollars could put together a burn deck and head out and play Magic pretty competitively. They might not being play a top notch deck, but they had a chance if the cards fell right. Sadly that is not the case anymore.
Time and time again you read the comment that the "answers are not there." And that is completely the case. The cheap answers are not there. To win, you need rares and mythics. Gawd that sounds so wrong to say, but it has come to that. And this has had the negative effect on all players, myself being one, of why the heck would I want to spend hundreds of dollars for something that I can play for a year and then its worthless.
But you also have to be open minded and take a look at those people who want to play magic even sort of competitively but have no way of doing so because their finances will not allow it. Wizards has pushed those player away. They themselves are spending what little money they have on Modern decks because they will last.
Not sure about anyone else game shops, but where I am around, there is generally two to three modern event firing a week. Standard .. its like pulling teeth to even get 8 at an event.
Standard is ugly, I go to build a deck, and I find myself going after the same cards... Little Nissa, Snake,Drana, Kalitas, Inspector, Marvel, Ulamog, just throw them into a deck add your fatal pushes, grasp, declaration in stone, and you have a deck, it's almost prebuilt. I'm guessing it works out the same for Vehicals, and whatever, the other 90% of the cards printed arn't worth playing in ANY format. Removal is printed is so bad your just as well off saving those slots for more creatures.
Standard is ugly, I go to build a deck, and I find myself going after the same cards... Little Nissa, Snake,Drana, Kalitas, Inspector, Marvel, Ulamog, just throw them into a deck add your fatal pushes, grasp, declaration in stone, and you have a deck, it's almost prebuilt. I'm guessing it works out the same for Vehicals, and whatever, the other 90% of the cards printed arn't worth playing in ANY format. Removal is printed is so bad your just as well off saving those slots for more creatures.
I was doing the same but decided to trade in most of my viable standard stuff for modern staples. I have kept a lot of my red stuff and my play set of Gideons since they are likely to be modern staples. I haven't given up on standard but I have move my position . Maybe after rotation Mardu dies down and wizards changes there stance against instant speed burn.
Same with my LGS, Viffer. Standard is pretty dead. Most of the local action is in Modern and there's a group that plays Commander. I've been looking at the Commander format a bit more. It looks fun.
Same with my LGS, Viffer. Standard is pretty dead. Most of the local action is in Modern and there's a group that plays Commander. I've been looking at the Commander format a bit more. It looks fun.
Commander is fun if you like casual magic it gives you something to do while you wait for standard to straighten out. I think standard will get better after rotation.
IMaybe stop publishing decklists would be a good start?
Lol, how the hell do you think that is in any way going to be enforceable?
Barely anyone finds their decklists on Wizards to begin with, and lists published on the mothership has several clones published on anywhere from Channel Fireball to mtgGoldfish to TappedOut to this very site etc etc etc.
You won't be able to stop decklists being published and netdecking unless you plan to shut down the entire internet.
"If burn was better" we would see a even more opressive mardu. Saheeli would have even more opressive tools.
So... the problem isn't rdw being weak. The problem is there is little to no downside to play 3/4 color decks in T2.
"So let me get this straight... I get to play all the best early creatures, can transition safe to midrange (heart/gideon) with a flyer, thinking that they last until there, I can use the BEST removals of the game (push/desintegration), I will get recursive treaths and one creature/artifact that won't have to deal with sorc. speed removal? and I may get a litle "oh it's bothersoome this land must come into play tapped because I have three lands in 1 of 50 games that will matter because of 2WW gideon? Ehhh I guess it won't be a problem with new gideon..."
Why play monored when you can deal 3 damage turn two, 6 turn 3 with tool and scraphead? Why play monored if you can transition mid range WHILE having the same aggressiveness and better removals? Inventors apprentice is garbage if you compare to tool.
There is no reason. t2 turned into a warped modern. 3/4 color good stuff. That is hurting the format that should be slow. Time to go back to the colorwheel and hurt the manabase. The problem is that wizards don't wanna print things that hurt mana bases.
"If burn was better" we would see a even more opressive mardu. Saheeli would have even more opressive tools.
So... the problem isn't rdw being weak. The problem is there is little to no downside to play 3/4 color decks in T2.
"So let me get this straight... I get to play all the best early creatures, can transition safe to midrange (heart/gideon) with a flyer, thinking that they last until there, I can use the BEST removals of the game (push/desintegration), I will get recursive treaths and one creature/artifact that won't have to deal with sorc. speed removal? and I may get a litle "oh it's bothersoome this land must come into play tapped because I have three lands in 1 of 50 games that will matter because of 2WW gideon? Ehhh I guess it won't be a problem with new gideon..."
Why play monored when you can deal 3 damage turn two, 6 turn 3 with tool and scraphead? Why play monored if you can transition mid range WHILE having the same aggressiveness and better removals? Inventors apprentice is garbage if you compare to tool.
There is no reason. t2 turned into a warped modern. 3/4 color good stuff. That is hurting the format that should be slow. Time to go back to the colorwheel and hurt the manabase. The problem is that wizards don't wanna print things that hurt mana bases.
Yes, better burn spells would help power up all three decks but When RDW-burn decks are good they consistently kill turn 4 which would likely be to fast for mardu or Saheeli to keep up. When I was playing Atarka red in Khans blocks I was consistently winning on turn 3-4. I don't see red getting any better until rotation. It's not just burn that red needs it's also good Token production, like hordeling outburst and Dragon Fodder.
Exactly, The tension is what makes the game exciting. I loved standard when we had aggro decks that could kill turn 4 and control players had Wrath of God that could reset you on turn 4 .
The problem is that if the aggro player is on the play, they win before wrath comes down from the control player. And even if they're on the draw and the control player gets the on curve wrath, they're probably at 5 or fewer life. If the aggro player is smart and didn't overcommit to the turn 4 kill on the draw, they have lethal on turn 5. Control just doesn't have the ability to compete against that kind of hyper-aggro pressure. But giving them a turn 3 wrath or slowing aggro down a turn almost entirely reverses the scenario - aggro can't realistically get a kill before the control deck has the game locked down.
There has to be some measure of give and take that can't be effectively quantized with the system in place. Either aggro wins before control can reliably stabilize, or control locks the game up before aggro can reliably put 20 damage through. This is what spawned midrange in the first place, and it's the best compromise wizards can accomplish - so they force it.
Ah my friend you are missing the point though, Agro is not ment to beat control, its combo that is ment to beat agro, and control beats combo. using your example if agro can win by turn 4, then combo should win turn 3, but control has a counter spell online turn two. The counter spell will make no difference to agro but cripples combo, Agro can't interact with the stack so loses to combos faster clock. Agro isn't hinder by most of controls game plan/cards so it can either win or push through a win. Its a RPS thing.
I'm so sick of this construct.
The real archetypes are much more complex and includes stuff like Countersliver.
And, while I do agree, I think using RPS as a standard is fine on a very basic level. As long as RPS is working properly, it keeps any one deck from running rampant in the format, it also lets players know when the format isn't healthy, when a single deck is breaking that mold, or decks are hybriding without losing something in return. pure Aggro should run faster then Aggro control, but aggro control is going to stop a key piece from that aggro deck, what we are seeing right now are Mid-range decks, that have the speed of an aggro deck, and the control elements, and none of it being hindered by the other.
Standard feels much better post-ban though. Blue Control decks are totally viable (jeskai mostly), while Mardu, hard to tell, but I hope pro tour finds a way to beat it. SCG was more of a "my deck got banned" or "I already had mardu", hence the results with 5 mardu in the top8. I'm sure there are Jeskai Control and GB slow midrange delirium variants that beat Mardu consistently.
I always buy into fastest and slowest decks at the same time, and I would like me some RDW for sure too. But Blue Control players, me included - we are back in the race.
Instant speed burn would have stopped copy cat from becoming a problem since you could burn out Saheeli as soon as it hit play. Char and Hero's Downfall would have helped the format so much. Wizards wants to print Planeswalkers but no good answers for them that's the real Problem. Planeswalkers are a cash cow for wizards that's why they are untouchable. Wizards needs to focus more on making a fun format to play in and less on ways to squeeze more money out of the players. They also need to cut back on indestructible creatures Gideon was a big mistake.
Instant speed burn would have stopped copy cat from becoming a problem since you could burn out Saheeli as soon as it hit play. Char and Hero's Downfall would have helped the format so much. Wizards wants to print Planeswalkers but no good answers for them that's the real Problem. Planeswalkers are a cash cow for wizards that's why they are untouchable. Wizards needs to focus more on making a fun format to play in and less on ways to squeeze more money out of the players. They also need to cut back on indestructible creatures Gideon was a big mistake.
I don't mind the indestructible mechanic as long as you have to work to either get out or keep it. By that I mean either get a combo out or pay a hefty mana cost or cumulative upkeep. I have never liked the concept of Planeswalkers. It just feels like unnecessary bloat.
I think a return to core color identity is healthy for the game. For example, Black excels at hand disruption, creature removal, and damage, but many of their spells come at a price to the caster, so if you play Black, you know it's a race to see who dies first. Red should be "I'm going to kill you first" and Black "I'm going to kill everyone, but first you." That's why I love cards like Death Cloud and Smallpox. I think that WotC has lost their way here. It's fine to create a story and build cards to tell that story, but they should remain focused on color identity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I mean you say its tier 3 and I disagree. Tier 1/1.5.
I really think Wizards needs to ensure that certain archetypes are supported during a cycle. We should never have a time where we don't have Burn, UW Control, White Weenie, Green Ramp, and Big Red. I'm sure I'm missing some classic archetypes, but I feel those really defined the game. I'm a Burn player at heart. Every time a new set that comes out without a reprint of Lightning Bolt I ask myself if LB is really so powerful that it would warp standard? Is 3 damage to creature or player/planeswalker at Instant speed as broken as Cat combo? I don't think it is. For that matter, I don't think Mana Leak or Force of Will are too strong for Standard either.
I agree that if Burn and Blue Control were both viable in Standard that cards like Felidar Guardian and Reflector Mage wouldn't need to be banned. Well, maybe Reflector Mage. He's just super annoying.
Standard has some interesting things happening, now that Cat Combo is gone, but a stronger meta would have allowed room for the decks just now emerging without resorting to bans.
Behind the eyes of truth, is a world of illustions.
Dragon Riderof a Mist Dragonn anyway with the Dragon Riders Clan.
Behind the eyes of truth, is a world of illustions.
Dragon Riderof a Mist Dragonn anyway with the Dragon Riders Clan.
Just stick to Modern or casual formats until they realize Planeswalker superiority is bad for the game's health.
Behind the eyes of truth, is a world of illustions.
Dragon Riderof a Mist Dragonn anyway with the Dragon Riders Clan.
Behind the eyes of truth, is a world of illustions.
Dragon Riderof a Mist Dragonn anyway with the Dragon Riders Clan.
"See, I'm a man of simple tastes. I like dynamite, and gunpowder... And gasoline! Do you know what all of these things have in common? They're cheap!"
And this is what is missing from standard. Burn is clearly the best example of one deck missing, but there are others. Burn was burn because answers were printed in Common and Uncommon and simply put, the deck was cheap $$$$. Anyone with a few dollars could put together a burn deck and head out and play Magic pretty competitively. They might not being play a top notch deck, but they had a chance if the cards fell right. Sadly that is not the case anymore.
Time and time again you read the comment that the "answers are not there." And that is completely the case. The cheap answers are not there. To win, you need rares and mythics. Gawd that sounds so wrong to say, but it has come to that. And this has had the negative effect on all players, myself being one, of why the heck would I want to spend hundreds of dollars for something that I can play for a year and then its worthless.
But you also have to be open minded and take a look at those people who want to play magic even sort of competitively but have no way of doing so because their finances will not allow it. Wizards has pushed those player away. They themselves are spending what little money they have on Modern decks because they will last.
Not sure about anyone else game shops, but where I am around, there is generally two to three modern event firing a week. Standard .. its like pulling teeth to even get 8 at an event.
Standard right now is just ugly.
Behind the eyes of truth, is a world of illustions.
Dragon Riderof a Mist Dragonn anyway with the Dragon Riders Clan.
Lol, how the hell do you think that is in any way going to be enforceable?
Barely anyone finds their decklists on Wizards to begin with, and lists published on the mothership has several clones published on anywhere from Channel Fireball to mtgGoldfish to TappedOut to this very site etc etc etc.
You won't be able to stop decklists being published and netdecking unless you plan to shut down the entire internet.
So... the problem isn't rdw being weak. The problem is there is little to no downside to play 3/4 color decks in T2.
"So let me get this straight... I get to play all the best early creatures, can transition safe to midrange (heart/gideon) with a flyer, thinking that they last until there, I can use the BEST removals of the game (push/desintegration), I will get recursive treaths and one creature/artifact that won't have to deal with sorc. speed removal? and I may get a litle "oh it's bothersoome this land must come into play tapped because I have three lands in 1 of 50 games that will matter because of 2WW gideon? Ehhh I guess it won't be a problem with new gideon..."
Why play monored when you can deal 3 damage turn two, 6 turn 3 with tool and scraphead? Why play monored if you can transition mid range WHILE having the same aggressiveness and better removals? Inventors apprentice is garbage if you compare to tool.
There is no reason. t2 turned into a warped modern. 3/4 color good stuff. That is hurting the format that should be slow. Time to go back to the colorwheel and hurt the manabase. The problem is that wizards don't wanna print things that hurt mana bases.
This however I agree with
RR
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I always buy into fastest and slowest decks at the same time, and I would like me some RDW for sure too. But Blue Control players, me included - we are back in the race.
I don't mind the indestructible mechanic as long as you have to work to either get out or keep it. By that I mean either get a combo out or pay a hefty mana cost or cumulative upkeep. I have never liked the concept of Planeswalkers. It just feels like unnecessary bloat.
I think a return to core color identity is healthy for the game. For example, Black excels at hand disruption, creature removal, and damage, but many of their spells come at a price to the caster, so if you play Black, you know it's a race to see who dies first. Red should be "I'm going to kill you first" and Black "I'm going to kill everyone, but first you." That's why I love cards like Death Cloud and Smallpox. I think that WotC has lost their way here. It's fine to create a story and build cards to tell that story, but they should remain focused on color identity.