We did miss the interaction with Saheeli, however, and that has led to some . . . interesting decks in Standard. While we were pushing for more combo decks in Standard with Aether Revolt, this is not the kind of deck we would intentionally take a risk with. In hindsight, Felidar Guardian definitely should've said "creature or artifact." Pro Tour Aether Revolt is this weekend, and we'll be watching to see how these decks do.
Agreed. I think any further bannings in this format are going to do more harm than good. The deck is going to need to post some insane results/numbers in order to justify even talking about banning it, if you ask me.
The combo is not unbeatable by any stretch, though it is somewhat difficult to be able to effectively beat the combo AND the control game plan. That's going to be the hardest aspect of this deck to figure out when playing against it.
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States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Yeah, this is not on the level of acceptable things to leak through playtesting, especially with the number of small sets currently in Standard, and the fact that one component is a mythic rare planeswalker with a hasty token generating ability, which should already be something that causes them to keep an eye on flicker effects, since there are already combos involving hasty token generators and flicker effects in Magic. My confidence in WotC's competence has taken a major nose dive.
I think it's fun that they missed it. Magic is a game. Its not important. And the game will survive this.
While it is a blemish on the Magic, it's the kind that gives the game character much in the same way a nick in a nice piece of wood furniture can give it more appeal. It will be great to reminisce over this one day.
Yeah, this is not on the level of acceptable things to leak through playtesting, especially with the number of small sets currently in Standard, and the fact that one component is a mythic rare planeswalker with a hasty token generating ability, which should already be something that causes them to keep an eye on flicker effects, since there are already combos involving hasty token generators and flicker effects in Magic. My confidence in WotC's competence has taken a major nose dive.
Only thing I can see as to why they missed it is that the sets were developed by different people/groups.
Even with all the flicker effects in magic this combo is definitely beatable. Ramp isn't what it used to be. And there's a card that came out in eldritch moon called imprisoned in the moon. It turns a creature land or planeswalker into a colorless land. The best option against the combo would be that and then a land destruction spell. Or play a straight up destroy target permanent or a destroy target planeswalker spell. There are a few of those cards in standard right now. Imprisoned in the moon by itself isn't great but I definitely think it's one of the more overlooked control cards seeing as how much they're pushing planeswalkers currently. It's currently a .50 rare by tcgplayer prices but I could see it potentially going up after this pro tour. I could also see something similar happening to ruinous path even though it is a sorcery.
Even with all the flicker effects in magic this combo is definitely beatable. Ramp isn't what it used to be. And there's a card that came out in eldritch moon called imprisoned in the moon. It turns a creature land or planeswalker into a colorless land. The best option against the combo would be that and then a land destruction spell. Or play a straight up destroy target permanent or a destroy target planeswalker spell. There are a few of those cards in standard right now. Imprisoned in the moon by itself isn't great but I definitely think it's one of the more overlooked control cards seeing as how much they're pushing planeswalkers currently. It's currently a .50 rare by tcgplayer prices but I could see it potentially going up after this pro tour. I could also see something similar happening to ruinous path even though it is a sorcery.
Imprisoned in the moon is great for Gideon, Liliana and the slow push to ultimate planeswalkers. But vs this combo, its hot garbage. 3 reasons:
1.) Enchantment speed
2.) Saheeli plays in U, can counter your imprisoned
3.) What good Saheeli player plays her before you go infinite and with no protection in hand???
I downplayed the combo oriinally but it's very viable. The only answer you have to a exile a resolved planeswalker before 7 mana is Unmaking (white). To the Slaughter is situational. Bounce effects just delay the infinite till there turn.
The problem is the lack of planeswalker removal spells and hard burn spells at instant that could kill
Tweaking your deck to beat the combo just means you have more dead cards in your hand vs aggro decks and vice versa. First turn game losses all around for control players it seems in standard.
This is honestly sort of hilarious in a sad way. I'm not at all trying to imply that the copycat combo is some sort of unbeatable monster. Heck, it folds to Shock. But I do think it's funny that they missed something the players saw immediately.
Maybe Guardian was glossed over as a junk uncommon while they were reviewing the set, but players obviously caught onto what the junk uncommon could do.
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-Chandra Nalaar
It was 24% of the format, because everyone saw "easy infinte combo" and flocked to it. At the same time, there was a fair number of people who saw this and brewed to beat it more than to mirror it. And at the PT we saw the fruits of their labor: Zero Jeskai Copycat decks in the top8, 1 or 2 in the top 16. The deck not only folds to shock, but turn 3 saheeli rai dies to Heart of Kiran as a hard counter.
Copycat is going to be one of those decks similar to what dredge used to be in modern - It will pop up and steal an event whenever people start taking out the things that hate the deck out, then people will bring the targetted hate back in and make it unfeasible for tournament play for another month or so.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I read something that seems fairly likely. There is a non-zero chance that Felidar Guardian started as "creature or artifact" to fit with a fairly common theme of the block. However, that is significantly more font space than "permanent." So, perhaps by templating they noticed it would require smaller font and just ran back the quick change to permanent. If that was the case, it's possible that R&D was well past KLD/AER and so it would be more understandable to forget.
People also have to remember that Wizards play tests these things while they are in flux. The original [c]Skullclamp[/s] was junk and then changed late. By the time people had remembered it and realized it was junk anymore, it was too late. So, a good chance that the cat we saw simply was different than the one that Wizards played with for a while, and so the change didn't consciously register.
Of course, it's also possible that nothing changed and they just didn't see it.
Even with all the flicker effects in magic this combo is definitely beatable. Ramp isn't what it used to be. And there's a card that came out in eldritch moon called imprisoned in the moon. It turns a creature land or planeswalker into a colorless land. The best option against the combo would be that and then a land destruction spell. Or play a straight up destroy target permanent or a destroy target planeswalker spell. There are a few of those cards in standard right now. Imprisoned in the moon by itself isn't great but I definitely think it's one of the more overlooked control cards seeing as how much they're pushing planeswalkers currently. It's currently a .50 rare by tcgplayer prices but I could see it potentially going up after this pro tour. I could also see something similar happening to ruinous path even though it is a sorcery.
Imprisoned in the moon is great for Gideon, Liliana and the slow push to ultimate planeswalkers. But vs this combo, its hot garbage. 3 reasons:
1.) Enchantment speed
2.) Saheeli plays in U, can counter your imprisoned
3.) What good Saheeli player plays her before you go infinite and with no protection in hand???
I downplayed the combo oriinally but it's very viable. The only answer you have to a exile a resolved planeswalker before 7 mana is Unmaking (white). To the Slaughter is situational. Bounce effects just delay the infinite till there turn.
The problem is the lack of planeswalker removal spells and hard burn spells at instant that could kill
Tweaking your deck to beat the combo just means you have more dead cards in your hand vs aggro decks and vice versa. First turn game losses all around for control players it seems in standard.
4. you play Saheeli, they turn her into an island with the enchantment. You play the Cat, target the Saheeli-turned-into-an-island, flicker it and get your Saheeli back because the enchantment falls off while she's in exile.
I personally think its fine as it actually adds character to the game in new and weird ways. Besides the matter that the deck folds extremely easy to even something like a humble Shock is fine with me. Its fairly rare by the way that such a synergistic combo like this escapes R&D, half a decade could go by and everything is kept on a tight leash. People seem to forget the standard format that was Mirrodin-Kamigawa, yeah remember that one? Where instead of having multiple decks to play against like in our current standard format, you only had two real options for decks, Tooth & Nail and Ravager Affinity. Don't like those options? Too bad, they were the only good decks and if you weren't playing those two you would get stomped out.
I'm more worried about Mardu Vehicles than I am of Saheeli and her infinite cats. I can handle Cat.deck with even a budget deck because the combo is that easy to disrupt.
My major question of this combo isn't so much can it be beaten (we see the GB and Mardu are doing quite well), it's if it will open up more to the format. I personally think the combo is toxic to the meta and leaves only a few decks with the needs to beat it and the other top tier and would rather enjoy a format of not flooding spots with combo answers. Currently the meta is basically 4 shells and a lot of variants: Mardu, Jeskai Saheeli, 4 color Saheeli, and the many many GB(R) builds.
Source: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/m-files-aether-revolt-part-1-2017-02-03
So, they didn't see the interaction between these 2 cards and the Cat is definitely on a watch list.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
The combo is not unbeatable by any stretch, though it is somewhat difficult to be able to effectively beat the combo AND the control game plan. That's going to be the hardest aspect of this deck to figure out when playing against it.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Spirits
Indeed.
It's not like it took Deep Blue, 20 days and a team of pro's to figure it out.
One guy posted it 15 +/- minutes after the card was spoiled.
http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/20765
I'm sorry (not sorry) I'm done with standard and am all in on modern.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
While it is a blemish on the Magic, it's the kind that gives the game character much in the same way a nick in a nice piece of wood furniture can give it more appeal. It will be great to reminisce over this one day.
Only thing I can see as to why they missed it is that the sets were developed by different people/groups.
Imprisoned in the moon is great for Gideon, Liliana and the slow push to ultimate planeswalkers. But vs this combo, its hot garbage. 3 reasons:
1.) Enchantment speed
2.) Saheeli plays in U, can counter your imprisoned
3.) What good Saheeli player plays her before you go infinite and with no protection in hand???
I downplayed the combo oriinally but it's very viable. The only answer you have to a exile a resolved planeswalker before 7 mana is Unmaking (white). To the Slaughter is situational. Bounce effects just delay the infinite till there turn.
The problem is the lack of planeswalker removal spells and hard burn spells at instant that could kill
Tweaking your deck to beat the combo just means you have more dead cards in your hand vs aggro decks and vice versa. First turn game losses all around for control players it seems in standard.
Maybe Guardian was glossed over as a junk uncommon while they were reviewing the set, but players obviously caught onto what the junk uncommon could do.
-Chandra Nalaar
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Copycat is going to be one of those decks similar to what dredge used to be in modern - It will pop up and steal an event whenever people start taking out the things that hate the deck out, then people will bring the targetted hate back in and make it unfeasible for tournament play for another month or so.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
People also have to remember that Wizards play tests these things while they are in flux. The original [c]Skullclamp[/s] was junk and then changed late. By the time people had remembered it and realized it was junk anymore, it was too late. So, a good chance that the cat we saw simply was different than the one that Wizards played with for a while, and so the change didn't consciously register.
Of course, it's also possible that nothing changed and they just didn't see it.
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4. you play Saheeli, they turn her into an island with the enchantment. You play the Cat, target the Saheeli-turned-into-an-island, flicker it and get your Saheeli back because the enchantment falls off while she's in exile.
I'm more worried about Mardu Vehicles than I am of Saheeli and her infinite cats. I can handle Cat.deck with even a budget deck because the combo is that easy to disrupt.