We have a winner that isn't BG or Jeskai Saheeli, yet people are still unhappy? smh. I have no idea what kind of result you were hoping for.
How about a meta isn't dominated by ONE archetype? At this point, I'd gladly go back to BG/Jeskai Saheeli dominating Standard; that is technically 100% more diverse than what this weekend's PT results indicate.
Also does anyone else here notice that even in the days of SIEGE RHINO and COLLECTED COMPANY, there still wasn't a PT where 6 out of 8 decks were from ONE archetype?
The most ironic part is that this is all despite WoTC's recent efforts to make Standard more fun and diverse, including the recent bannings. WoTC's ever-so valiant efforts to help Standard somehow achieved the exact opposite. We can't wait to see how they're going to "save" Standard this time. How about just straight-up banning all the most played cards?
We have a winner that isn't BG or Jeskai Saheeli, yet people are still unhappy? smh. I have no idea what kind of result you were hoping for.
How about a meta isn't dominated by ONE archetype? At this point, I'd gladly go back to BG/Jeskai Saheeli dominating Standard; that is technically 100% more diverse than what this weekend's PT results indicate.
Also does anyone else here notice that even in the days of SIEGE RHINO and COLLECTED COMPANY, there still wasn't a PT where 6 out of 8 decks were from ONE archetype?
The most ironic part is that this is all despite WoTC's recent efforts to make Standard more fun and diverse, including the recent bannings. WoTC's ever-so valiant efforts to help Standard somehow achieved the exact opposite. We can't wait to see how they're going to "save" Standard this time. How about just straight-up banning all the most played cards?
it's easy to metagame for a PT, so results like this are nothing spectacular. there will continue to be dynamic after this PT. one deck will always be the best deck for any one specific weekend.
There are GREAT answers to Vehicles and Artifacts in Standard at the moment. What there are not, however, are good answers to Scrapheap Scrounger (on top of my head, only Declaration In Stone, Stasis Snare, Incendiary Flow and Natural Obsolescence can deal with it). More than any vehicles, that is the card that is pushing Mardu at the front and keeping Control down. It is incredibly cheap for what it does, and doesn't require a heavy color investment. Compare it to its previous version: Despoiler of Souls!
There are GREAT answers to Vehicles and Artifacts in Standard at the moment. What there are not, however, are good answers to Scrapheap Scrounger (on top of my head, only Declaration In Stone, Stasis Snare, Incendiary Flow and Natural Obsolescence can deal with it). More than any vehicles, that is the card that is pushing Mardu at the front and keeping Control down. It is incredibly cheap for what it does, and doesn't require a heavy color investment. Compare it to its previous version: Despoiler of Souls!
how are these not good answers? what do you want, Swords to Plowshares? Or Ban Scrapheap Scrounger? I don't get it. play a 2/4, that's how you beat the Scrounger.
There are GREAT answers to Vehicles and Artifacts in Standard at the moment. What there are not, however, are good answers to Scrapheap Scrounger (on top of my head, only Declaration In Stone, Stasis Snare, Incendiary Flow and Natural Obsolescence can deal with it). More than any vehicles, that is the card that is pushing Mardu at the front and keeping Control down. It is incredibly cheap for what it does, and doesn't require a heavy color investment. Compare it to its previous version: Despoiler of Souls!
Blue also has the counter spells that exile creatures in void shatter, spell shrivel, and horribly awry, otherwise, I agree scrounger is very good. Maybe he will be one of the next banned cards? I mean if 3/4 of the PT finals is the same deck expect it to get hit hard with the ban hammer imo, at least that is what I get out of what wizards is trying to do now?
It is kind of sad to see so little deck diversity. There was some. I am hoping to see some of the U/B control deck lists. I really thought G/R stood a decent chance. I guess no one wanted to play it.
I mean if 3/4 of the PT finals is the same deck expect it to get hit hard with the ban hammer imo, at least that is what I get out of what wizards is trying to do now?
You definitely don't look at things from a control player perspective. Scrounger can be a 4 for 1, and in multiples invalidates the core aspect of control's game plan, that is 1 for 1 game plan. Current control decks rely on Dynavolt Tower and Torrential Gearhulk to get ahead on CA. The sweepers are ineffective against Mardu and G/B for various reasons (they're better against G/B). The answers for scrounger are exile effects like:
God damn it if they can print 2cmc 4/4 flying Vigilance creatures, with crew costs for recurring creatures than yes an adequate answer would be Swords to Plowshares. Being proactive is SO much better than being reactive that it limits the amount of deck diversity. Maybe you don't see that? If the best proactive decks are found and reactive decks can't necessary adapt than it becomes the a meta of dueling creature decks and the deck with the best creatures in the format wins.
An answer like Release the Gremlins, is narrow and BAD. You take the turn off, destroy some vehicles and the scrounger would still come back. I'm not saying it won't see play, it may have to, but the deck still plays Gideon's and a butt ton of Removal of its own. I didn't expect to see Vehicles dominate that much but have you seen the decklists? I was an utter STOMP, and I've never seen a meta like this since I got back into magic in 2014.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I mean if 3/4 of the PT finals is the same deck expect it to get hit hard with the ban hammer imo, at least that is what I get out of what wizards is trying to do now?
no.
At this point, nobody knows what Wizards intends to do. They've already made bannings that don't make much sense so suffice to say that hardly anything is safe from being axed now and going forward. But logically, banning Scrounger is overboard because, as mentioned before, there's plenty of ways to deal with it.
We have a winner that isn't BG or Jeskai Saheeli, yet people are still unhappy? smh. I have no idea what kind of result you were hoping for.
A top 8 that doesn't have 6 of the same deck would be nice.
I can see that, but there's no reason to assume that this was because wotc did poor job at balancing the format. it's more about players overlooking the strategy and underpreparing for it. first GB was too strong and needed to get nerfed, then it was jeskai, now it' Mardu. I don't trust one week's worth of results.
I'm sort of wondering if vehicles will have a foil in the next set. If not it's possible it may still persist in the coming Amonket meta as well. On the other hand, those Verdurous Gearhulks and Walking Ballista found a home even if that home is probably not going to work vs vehicles. I was worried they might have killed all piker strategies with that ballista, but the vehicles deck proved otherwise. I'm seriously wondering if they are going to ban heart of kiran, but then we are back to GB vs whatever else is on the field and I don't think vehicles is broken as much as there are unprepared players and generalized answers are far and between this season.
Actually, R/B aggro did really well despite not having a lot of people playing it. Improvise got trashed, but really the meta looks like it may have three major decks.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
An answer like Release the Gremlins, is narrow and BAD. You take the turn off, destroy some vehicles and the scrounger would still come back. I'm not saying it won't see play, it may have to, but the deck still plays Gideon's and a butt ton of Removal of its own. I didn't expect to see Vehicles dominate that much but have you seen the decklists? I was an utter STOMP, and I've never seen a meta like this since I got back into magic in 2014.
Somebody hasn't resolved this card in a midrange mirror.
Manic Vandal was more than playable during Blade era. If people are playing 4x Heart of Kiran and Skyship, I don't see how this card is "BAD". Seems rather the opposite.
If you're having trouble with Scrapheap Scrounger, play a deck that can attack back and make it's "can't block" clause bad.
We have a winner that isn't BG or Jeskai Saheeli, yet people are still unhappy? smh. I have no idea what kind of result you were hoping for.
A top 8 that doesn't have 6 of the same deck would be nice.
But how much of it is due to:
1) wotc made baad baad cards
2) meta not solved
Its easy to jump to 1) and stay there as it absolves the player (you and i and everyone) of blame.
But if it is 2), then the problem is a lack of brewing activity. The game is as much about collecting as it is about playing. Playing has"brewing/deckbuilding" and "actual gameplay" modes. Lack of diversity could well be a lack of "brewing/deckbuilding".
In this day and age where we netdeck and follow pros and have little time to test, is that so unthinkable? And even for pros, it takes time flesh out a completely new strategy, so if there are no new potential strategies to tweak (as in close to being a full fledged viable deck), likely the pros will just gravitate to the more obviously powerful cards or incumbent decks that already do well i.e. "same old same old" : again a brewing problem.
Lugger as a resident U/B/x control player, that's a card that may have to see play, despite how terribad it as to tap for it. I went 4-2 at my first PPTQ this season, and tweaked my control deck, but it's feels like it's a lost cause. The proactive decks are always so much better, and you know? That sucks. But hey, it's what players like so I'll just have to start playing tap em side ways decks (i love RDW style decks), it's boring for me, (I'm really good at limited but even that bores me, combat is combat, I prefer Shenanigans).
Is there a good control deck aside from Saheeli lurking? Maybe, but the vehicles + scrounger beat control into the dirt.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Lugger as a resident U/B/x control player, that's a card that may have to see play, despite how terribad it as to tap for it. I went 4-2 at my first PPTQ this season, and tweaked my control deck, but it's feels like it's a lost cause. The proactive decks are always so much better, and you know? That sucks. But hey, it's what players like so I'll just have to start playing tap em side ways decks (i love RDW style decks), it's boring for me, (I'm really good at limited but even that bores me, combat is combat, I prefer Shenanigans).
Is there a good control deck aside from Saheeli lurking? Maybe, but the vehicles + scrounger beat control into the dirt.
My tip is play commander on the side like I do when standard goes south. What gives me a headache this standard season is I wanted to play the two decks that actually won the PT so now they will be all but unplayable in a few weeks. People will just be gunning for them like it's duck hunting season, and the cards I'm missing for them are the most expensive components. I just happen to be missing heart of kiran, Verdurous Gearhulk, and walking ballista. My heart is weeping right now. Still got Avacyn and Torrentials, but I'm so not trading those up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Lugger as a resident U/B/x control player, that's a card that may have to see play, despite how terribad it as to tap for it. I went 4-2 at my first PPTQ this season, and tweaked my control deck, but it's feels like it's a lost cause. The proactive decks are always so much better, and you know? That sucks. But hey, it's what players like so I'll just have to start playing tap em side ways decks (i love RDW style decks), it's boring for me, (I'm really good at limited but even that bores me, combat is combat, I prefer Shenanigans).
Is there a good control deck aside from Saheeli lurking? Maybe, but the vehicles + scrounger beat control into the dirt.
I mean, usually control decks are targeting a specific deck. There weren't a ton of UB lists but I have to assume they made the mistake of targeting BG and Copycat. UBx has some tools but you have to be packing the right ones.
Vehicles are very hard to interact with from the control side of the table. You can remove the vehicle, but your still left with the creature that crews it and then you have to worry about Gideon and removal in the form of Unlicensed Disintegration.
Finding a control deck that beats a scrounger deck is very hard, and I'm not quite sure we have all the tools to do that. 1 for 1'ing that deck isn't a good idea since the scrounger comes back, it may be that control decks have to go towards Esper for more exile effects. That screws the mana base HARD, and prevents UU or BB early to starts reacting to the board. It may be that Grixis is the best option, but that still doesn't answer scrounger at the end step.
When it comes to the PT diversity? Terrible, and when it comes to break out decks? Even worse, when I say this was one of the least exciting PT's, I mean that it was the exact same match up all day. I mean ALL day. I imagine that is not what wizards intended, and I would assume for them it's a failure.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
We have a winner that isn't BG or Jeskai Saheeli, yet people are still unhappy? smh. I have no idea what kind of result you were hoping for.
A top 8 that doesn't have 6 of the same deck would be nice.
But how much of it is due to:
1) wotc made baad baad cards
2) meta not solved
Its easy to jump to 1) and stay there as it absolves the player (you and i and everyone) of blame.
But if it is 2), then the problem is a lack of brewing activity. The game is as much about collecting as it is about playing. Playing has"brewing/deckbuilding" and "actual gameplay" modes. Lack of diversity could well be a lack of "brewing/deckbuilding".
In this day and age where we netdeck and follow pros and have little time to test, is that so unthinkable? And even for pros, it takes time flesh out a completely new strategy, so if there are no new potential strategies to tweak (as in close to being a full fledged viable deck), likely the pros will just gravitate to the more obviously powerful cards or incumbent decks that already do well i.e. "same old same old" : again a brewing problem.
The thing is, when these teams of pros build and brew and test for the PT, they clearly test against the perceived top decks in the format (like Saheeli, GB, and Vehicles) plus, they'll test against other strong brews they find. If their brew (whatever it is) either can't beat up on these decks, or gets beaten up by these decks, then it's probably not a good choice to play. These pros know what they're doing and are always looking for an advantage they can gain in super secret deck building tech. It just so happens that because removal is so bad and so many cards are so obviously pushed, finding the best decks has been particularly easy the past few sets.
There's nothing wrong with brewing, but when your brew gets stomped on by several top tier decks, what's the point? If you can't beat em, join em. It's Wizards who prints the cards and creates the pool to build from. It's not our fault that they made several powerful sets with virtually no good answers.
Good news: After the bannings you can play an aggro deck in standard without shelling out for a rare 2 cmc vehicle!
Bad news: Now you get to buy a mythic 2 cmc vehicle...
My only consolation is that I doubt this was a deliberate move by WotC. I mean, if they didn't see the Copy Cat combo coming, this probably caught them by surprise as well.
I'm a little surprised nobody tried jamming the Pummeler combo deck. I thought Invigorated Rampage would give it a little boost, and Liliana is seeing a lot less play lately.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
How about a meta isn't dominated by ONE archetype? At this point, I'd gladly go back to BG/Jeskai Saheeli dominating Standard; that is technically 100% more diverse than what this weekend's PT results indicate.
Also does anyone else here notice that even in the days of SIEGE RHINO and COLLECTED COMPANY, there still wasn't a PT where 6 out of 8 decks were from ONE archetype?
The most ironic part is that this is all despite WoTC's recent efforts to make Standard more fun and diverse, including the recent bannings. WoTC's ever-so valiant efforts to help Standard somehow achieved the exact opposite. We can't wait to see how they're going to "save" Standard this time. How about just straight-up banning all the most played cards?
it's easy to metagame for a PT, so results like this are nothing spectacular. there will continue to be dynamic after this PT. one deck will always be the best deck for any one specific weekend.
Youtube Channel
*ahem*
"You called?"
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
how are these not good answers? what do you want, Swords to Plowshares? Or Ban Scrapheap Scrounger? I don't get it. play a 2/4, that's how you beat the Scrounger.
Youtube Channel
Blue also has the counter spells that exile creatures in void shatter, spell shrivel, and horribly awry, otherwise, I agree scrounger is very good. Maybe he will be one of the next banned cards? I mean if 3/4 of the PT finals is the same deck expect it to get hit hard with the ban hammer imo, at least that is what I get out of what wizards is trying to do now?
It is kind of sad to see so little deck diversity. There was some. I am hoping to see some of the U/B control deck lists. I really thought G/R stood a decent chance. I guess no one wanted to play it.
no.
Youtube Channel
Anguished Unmaking
Complete Disregard
an on the board Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
God damn it if they can print 2cmc 4/4 flying Vigilance creatures, with crew costs for recurring creatures than yes an adequate answer would be Swords to Plowshares. Being proactive is SO much better than being reactive that it limits the amount of deck diversity. Maybe you don't see that? If the best proactive decks are found and reactive decks can't necessary adapt than it becomes the a meta of dueling creature decks and the deck with the best creatures in the format wins.
An answer like Release the Gremlins, is narrow and BAD. You take the turn off, destroy some vehicles and the scrounger would still come back. I'm not saying it won't see play, it may have to, but the deck still plays Gideon's and a butt ton of Removal of its own. I didn't expect to see Vehicles dominate that much but have you seen the decklists? I was an utter STOMP, and I've never seen a meta like this since I got back into magic in 2014.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
At this point, nobody knows what Wizards intends to do. They've already made bannings that don't make much sense so suffice to say that hardly anything is safe from being axed now and going forward. But logically, banning Scrounger is overboard because, as mentioned before, there's plenty of ways to deal with it.
A top 8 that doesn't have 6 of the same deck would be nice.
I can see that, but there's no reason to assume that this was because wotc did poor job at balancing the format. it's more about players overlooking the strategy and underpreparing for it. first GB was too strong and needed to get nerfed, then it was jeskai, now it' Mardu. I don't trust one week's worth of results.
Youtube Channel
Actually, R/B aggro did really well despite not having a lot of people playing it. Improvise got trashed, but really the meta looks like it may have three major decks.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Somebody hasn't resolved this card in a midrange mirror.
Manic Vandal was more than playable during Blade era. If people are playing 4x Heart of Kiran and Skyship, I don't see how this card is "BAD". Seems rather the opposite.
If you're having trouble with Scrapheap Scrounger, play a deck that can attack back and make it's "can't block" clause bad.
________________________________________________________________________
Why did Vehicles do well this PT? It's good vs. Saheeli and it has robust removal against BG.
A lot of people played Vehicles -- it had a high day 1 percentage and was able to prey on another high % day 1 deck. Thus, Vehicles did well.
Wotc printed good answers to Artifacts (not named Aetherworks Marvel) -- it's on players to use them.
Vehicles is more than beatable -- it just didn't have a target this PT.
But how much of it is due to:
1) wotc made baad baad cards
2) meta not solved
Its easy to jump to 1) and stay there as it absolves the player (you and i and everyone) of blame.
But if it is 2), then the problem is a lack of brewing activity. The game is as much about collecting as it is about playing. Playing has"brewing/deckbuilding" and "actual gameplay" modes. Lack of diversity could well be a lack of "brewing/deckbuilding".
In this day and age where we netdeck and follow pros and have little time to test, is that so unthinkable? And even for pros, it takes time flesh out a completely new strategy, so if there are no new potential strategies to tweak (as in close to being a full fledged viable deck), likely the pros will just gravitate to the more obviously powerful cards or incumbent decks that already do well i.e. "same old same old" : again a brewing problem.
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
"The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
—Emily Dickinson
For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Is there a good control deck aside from Saheeli lurking? Maybe, but the vehicles + scrounger beat control into the dirt.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
My tip is play commander on the side like I do when standard goes south. What gives me a headache this standard season is I wanted to play the two decks that actually won the PT so now they will be all but unplayable in a few weeks. People will just be gunning for them like it's duck hunting season, and the cards I'm missing for them are the most expensive components. I just happen to be missing heart of kiran, Verdurous Gearhulk, and walking ballista. My heart is weeping right now. Still got Avacyn and Torrentials, but I'm so not trading those up.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I mean, usually control decks are targeting a specific deck. There weren't a ton of UB lists but I have to assume they made the mistake of targeting BG and Copycat. UBx has some tools but you have to be packing the right ones.
Finding a control deck that beats a scrounger deck is very hard, and I'm not quite sure we have all the tools to do that. 1 for 1'ing that deck isn't a good idea since the scrounger comes back, it may be that control decks have to go towards Esper for more exile effects. That screws the mana base HARD, and prevents UU or BB early to starts reacting to the board. It may be that Grixis is the best option, but that still doesn't answer scrounger at the end step.
When it comes to the PT diversity? Terrible, and when it comes to break out decks? Even worse, when I say this was one of the least exciting PT's, I mean that it was the exact same match up all day. I mean ALL day. I imagine that is not what wizards intended, and I would assume for them it's a failure.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
The thing is, when these teams of pros build and brew and test for the PT, they clearly test against the perceived top decks in the format (like Saheeli, GB, and Vehicles) plus, they'll test against other strong brews they find. If their brew (whatever it is) either can't beat up on these decks, or gets beaten up by these decks, then it's probably not a good choice to play. These pros know what they're doing and are always looking for an advantage they can gain in super secret deck building tech. It just so happens that because removal is so bad and so many cards are so obviously pushed, finding the best decks has been particularly easy the past few sets.
There's nothing wrong with brewing, but when your brew gets stomped on by several top tier decks, what's the point? If you can't beat em, join em. It's Wizards who prints the cards and creates the pool to build from. It's not our fault that they made several powerful sets with virtually no good answers.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Bad news: Now you get to buy a mythic 2 cmc vehicle...
My only consolation is that I doubt this was a deliberate move by WotC. I mean, if they didn't see the Copy Cat combo coming, this probably caught them by surprise as well.
I'm a little surprised nobody tried jamming the Pummeler combo deck. I thought Invigorated Rampage would give it a little boost, and Liliana is seeing a lot less play lately.