You don't remember the early Kaladesh standard correctly. The WU Flash wasn't discovered until the Pro Tour, where all 4 decks which went 9-x were WU. The first SCG tournament had a wide range of aggro and midrange decks, mainly RW or Mardu Vehicles, BG Delirium, an Emerge deck, a few UR Fevered Visions decks. Look at the lists here, the field was relatively varied, except for the fact that there was 32 out of a potential 32 Smuggler's Copters in the top 8. There were only 2 Spirits deck in the top 64: Hoogland's jeskai (which is closer to a Control list) at 31st and a U/W aggro in 37th. Someone even told me at that time that I was "Doing it wrong" for playing WU Spirits with Smuggler's Copter .
The Pro Tour was dominated by Aetherworks Marvel decks, which performed rather poorly in general since it was all-in on the combo, while the top 2 were control decks that disappeared as quickly as they appeared in a Looter Scooter world. WU Flash? Less than 3% of the Day 2 Metagame (listed as WU Flash and WU Midrange). It's only after the Pro Tour that the metagame solidified into Delirium which preyed on WU Flash which preyed on Aetherworks marvel which preyed on Delirium, with Mardu Vehicles doing their own thing.
To have the format congeal week 2 into 2 archetypes is alarming, to say the least. Maybe the Pros will break the format, but I doubt it. After all, they mainly played a Turn 4 Combo deck last Pro Tour (Aetherworks Marvel) and are bound to do it again this time (CCLC).
You don't remember the early Kaladesh standard correctly. The WU Flash wasn't discovered until the Pro Tour, where all 4 decks which went 9-x were WU. The first SCG tournament had a wide range of aggro and midrange decks, mainly RW or Mardu Vehicles, BG Delirium, an Emerge deck, a few UR Fevered Visions decks. Look at the lists here, the field was relatively varied, except for the fact that there was 32 out of a potential 32 Smuggler's Copters in the top 8. There were only 2 Spirits deck in the top 64: Hoogland's jeskai (which is closer to a Control list) at 31st and a U/W aggro in 37th. Someone even told me at that time that I was "Doing it wrong" for playing WU Spirits with Smuggler's Copter .
The Pro Tour was dominated by Aetherworks Marvel decks, which performed rather poorly in general since it was all-in on the combo, while the top 2 were control decks that disappeared as quickly as they appeared in a Looter Scooter world. WU Flash? Less than 3% of the Day 2 Metagame (listed as WU Flash and WU Midrange). It's only after the Pro Tour that the metagame solidified into Delirium which preyed on WU Flash which preyed on Aetherworks marvel which preyed on Delirium, with Mardu Vehicles doing their own thing.
To have the format congeal week 2 into 2 archetypes is alarming, to say the least. Maybe the Pros will break the format, but I doubt it. After all, they mainly played a Turn 4 Combo deck last Pro Tour (Aetherworks Marvel) and are bound to do it again this time (CCLC).
The lack of printed hate cards which hurt people's feelings are at the center of this recent Magic problem. When we have little to no way of actually dealing with a certain card type (planeswalkers) it makes entire deck choices invalid.
In the 23 years I've been playing Magic this is one of the most poorly designed block of sets ever. It's telling when I'd prefer to play Homelands based decks than put up with vehicles or energy. My sons are newer players and they find both to be incredibly strange. So your sets are poorly made, don't appeal to new or old players, and are low in monetary return due to the way the sets are made. Why would I buy a pack of cards for the past 2 sets? This is coming from a person who bought 2 boxes of Kamigawa. Which was a wonderful set to draft and left a great Standard to play.
Here's an idea, BRING BACK THE CORE SETS! This let's you print answers that don't mess with your precious 2 set drafts.
zzzz. so you and your sons don't like or understand current block? 10/10 anecdotal evidence, would draw conclusions out of this. Also, in case you actually didn't know this, people have been begging for WOTC to make standard cheaper. this will effect the EV of booster packs and there's just no way around it.
how the **** are you going to "hate" planeswalkers out? any removal spells like Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall are inherently bad because they STILL let you take value out of the walkers in question. furthermore, saying that planeswalkers are what make the game bad is just your opinion. there is nothing inherently bad about walkers. the only reason people play saheeli now is because of the combo with guardian.
but yeah, guess what the real hate cards for PWs are? Evasive cheap aggressive threats that are resilient to removal spells. if you can't see the paradigm we're discussing here then I can't help you. there is always going to be something "broken" in standard. the only meaningful point of discussion is how high we are going to set our bar of tolerance for one or two decks' metagame dominance before WOTC should take action.
I don't hate the current situation we're in, even though I'm a bit salty that my old deck got banned out of the format as a collateral damage, as the metagame back then was very "fine". of course things have to evolve from this point, and that's usually what happens. we get our new broken powerful decks and people move on to ***** and complain about other things. of course if jeskai saheeli keeps on this trajectory then we're certainly looking at a new ban.
You are aware you agreed with me? My point wasn't about having a couple removal spells. It's about the lack of cards that efficiently attack them.
My point is that we don't have, haven't had, a Rock Paper Scissors format in forever.
Set design is obviously poor as they has to ban 3 cards. This isn't the hallmark of quality design. And when people want cheaper standard they mean decks like little kid red.
You don't have to like what I say or my opinion. One of my longtime friends is a store owner. He has removed all but 1 standard event for February. He has replaced them with Frontier and Modern events. He's done this because standard events haven't had the 8 man minimums to run while a non sanction format(Frontier) has 20-25 players per event. Modern is up in the mid 50's and a huge earner for his store. The newer players, you know the future of Magic, are all starting with Frontier as it's cheaper and there are more decks to play with.
There might be hidden decks that the pros have waiting. I'm hoping so. But in my area standard is dead and the past 2 weeks aren't bringing it back.
I can understand situations like your friend's of Standard being seemingly dead. However I also think this situation is more a matter of location. There's a plethora of reasons of Standard not being popular and issues with the format itself are just a few. From what I've seen, Standard also tends to attract more competitive people and that also turns away more casual players. I'm sure if you look around your area you can find stores where Standard is very much alive but it'll likely be one with more serious players. Also Frontier is NOT necessarily cheaper to start with nor is it a format with fewer problems than Standard. However this is all a different topic entirely so let's move this discussion elsewhere if you want to continue.
More importantly, Standard is a format comprised of only the most recent sets, so of course there's going to be a limit on diversity. So then it shouldn't come as a surprise when Standard is dominated by a few select archetypes. I think an important thing to note here is that despite two decks dominating this and the last SCG, we're not seeing one card being present in 60% of decks, like Smuggler's Copter was.
The lack of printed hate cards which hurt people's feelings are at the center of this recent Magic problem. When we have little to no way of actually dealing with a certain card type (planeswalkers) it makes entire deck choices invalid.
In the 23 years I've been playing Magic this is one of the most poorly designed block of sets ever. It's telling when I'd prefer to play Homelands based decks than put up with vehicles or energy. My sons are newer players and they find both to be incredibly strange. So your sets are poorly made, don't appeal to new or old players, and are low in monetary return due to the way the sets are made. Why would I buy a pack of cards for the past 2 sets? This is coming from a person who bought 2 boxes of Kamigawa. Which was a wonderful set to draft and left a great Standard to play.
Here's an idea, BRING BACK THE CORE SETS! This let's you print answers that don't mess with your precious 2 set drafts.
zzzz. so you and your sons don't like or understand current block? 10/10 anecdotal evidence, would draw conclusions out of this. Also, in case you actually didn't know this, people have been begging for WOTC to make standard cheaper. this will effect the EV of booster packs and there's just no way around it.
how the **** are you going to "hate" planeswalkers out? any removal spells like Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall are inherently bad because they STILL let you take value out of the walkers in question. furthermore, saying that planeswalkers are what make the game bad is just your opinion. there is nothing inherently bad about walkers. the only reason people play saheeli now is because of the combo with guardian.
but yeah, guess what the real hate cards for PWs are? Evasive cheap aggressive threats that are resilient to removal spells. if you can't see the paradigm we're discussing here then I can't help you. there is always going to be something "broken" in standard. the only meaningful point of discussion is how high we are going to set our bar of tolerance for one or two decks' metagame dominance before WOTC should take action.
I don't hate the current situation we're in, even though I'm a bit salty that my old deck got banned out of the format as a collateral damage, as the metagame back then was very "fine". of course things have to evolve from this point, and that's usually what happens. we get our new broken powerful decks and people move on to ***** and complain about other things. of course if jeskai saheeli keeps on this trajectory then we're certainly looking at a new ban.
You are aware you agreed with me? My point wasn't about having a couple removal spells. It's about the lack of cards that efficiently attack them.
My point is that we don't have, haven't had, a Rock Paper Scissors format in forever.
Set design is obviously poor as they has to ban 3 cards. This isn't the hallmark of quality design. And when people want cheaper standard they mean decks like little kid red.
You don't have to like what I say or my opinion. One of my longtime friends is a store owner. He has removed all but 1 standard event for February. He has replaced them with Frontier and Modern events. He's done this because standard events haven't had the 8 man minimums to run while a non sanction format(Frontier) has 20-25 players per event. Modern is up in the mid 50's and a huge earner for his store. The newer players, you know the future of Magic, are all starting with Frontier as it's cheaper and there are more decks to play with.
There might be hidden decks that the pros have waiting. I'm hoping so. But in my area standard is dead and the past 2 weeks aren't bringing it back.
I can understand situations like your friend's of Standard being seemingly dead. However I also think this situation is more a matter of location. There's a plethora of reasons of Standard not being popular and issues with the format itself are just a few. From what I've seen, Standard also tends to attract more competitive people and that also turns away more casual players. I'm sure if you look around your area you can find stores where Standard is very much alive but it'll likely be one with more serious players. Also Frontier is NOT necessarily cheaper to start with nor is it a format with fewer problems than Standard. However this is all a different topic entirely so let's move this discussion elsewhere if you want to continue.
More importantly, Standard is a format comprised of only the most recent sets, so of course there's going to be a limit on diversity. So then it shouldn't come as a surprise when Standard is dominated by a few select archetypes. I think an important thing to note here is that despite two decks dominating this and the last SCG, we're not seeing one card being present in 60% of decks, like Smuggler's Copter was.
My buddy's shop is the PPTQ size biggest in the area shop. He supplies smaller satellite stores with product. We aren't talking about a small store that recently opened either. He's had a store for close to 20 years. This is the first month he's pushed Standard out. Khans standard events fired at 60 people on average for the win a case events.
Sunday's mystery repack draft drew 49 people. The Modern win a box on Friday had 65 people. He has a hall that seats 150 people that we have filled for events.
I've been a part of every Standard. Everyone of them. This is around the same level as post 5th Dawn attendance. The bans were good but the damage is done. Kaladesh having another likely ban is not a good look. If your car had a recall it's not because they did something right. Basic economics tells you that bans severely damage consumer confidence.
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():
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
The lack of printed hate cards which hurt people's feelings are at the center of this recent Magic problem. When we have little to no way of actually dealing with a certain card type (planeswalkers) it makes entire deck choices invalid.
In the 23 years I've been playing Magic this is one of the most poorly designed block of sets ever. It's telling when I'd prefer to play Homelands based decks than put up with vehicles or energy. My sons are newer players and they find both to be incredibly strange. So your sets are poorly made, don't appeal to new or old players, and are low in monetary return due to the way the sets are made. Why would I buy a pack of cards for the past 2 sets? This is coming from a person who bought 2 boxes of Kamigawa. Which was a wonderful set to draft and left a great Standard to play.
Here's an idea, BRING BACK THE CORE SETS! This let's you print answers that don't mess with your precious 2 set drafts.
zzzz. so you and your sons don't like or understand current block? 10/10 anecdotal evidence, would draw conclusions out of this. Also, in case you actually didn't know this, people have been begging for WOTC to make standard cheaper. this will effect the EV of booster packs and there's just no way around it.
how the **** are you going to "hate" planeswalkers out? any removal spells like Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall are inherently bad because they STILL let you take value out of the walkers in question. furthermore, saying that planeswalkers are what make the game bad is just your opinion. there is nothing inherently bad about walkers. the only reason people play saheeli now is because of the combo with guardian.
but yeah, guess what the real hate cards for PWs are? Evasive cheap aggressive threats that are resilient to removal spells. if you can't see the paradigm we're discussing here then I can't help you. there is always going to be something "broken" in standard. the only meaningful point of discussion is how high we are going to set our bar of tolerance for one or two decks' metagame dominance before WOTC should take action.
I don't hate the current situation we're in, even though I'm a bit salty that my old deck got banned out of the format as a collateral damage, as the metagame back then was very "fine". of course things have to evolve from this point, and that's usually what happens. we get our new broken powerful decks and people move on to ***** and complain about other things. of course if jeskai saheeli keeps on this trajectory then we're certainly looking at a new ban.
You are aware you agreed with me? My point wasn't about having a couple removal spells. It's about the lack of cards that efficiently attack them.
My point is that we don't have, haven't had, a Rock Paper Scissors format in forever.
Set design is obviously poor as they has to ban 3 cards. This isn't the hallmark of quality design. And when people want cheaper standard they mean decks like little kid red.
You don't have to like what I say or my opinion. One of my longtime friends is a store owner. He has removed all but 1 standard event for February. He has replaced them with Frontier and Modern events. He's done this because standard events haven't had the 8 man minimums to run while a non sanction format(Frontier) has 20-25 players per event. Modern is up in the mid 50's and a huge earner for his store. The newer players, you know the future of Magic, are all starting with Frontier as it's cheaper and there are more decks to play with.
There might be hidden decks that the pros have waiting. I'm hoping so. But in my area standard is dead and the past 2 weeks aren't bringing it back.
I can understand situations like your friend's of Standard being seemingly dead. However I also think this situation is more a matter of location. There's a plethora of reasons of Standard not being popular and issues with the format itself are just a few. From what I've seen, Standard also tends to attract more competitive people and that also turns away more casual players. I'm sure if you look around your area you can find stores where Standard is very much alive but it'll likely be one with more serious players. Also Frontier is NOT necessarily cheaper to start with nor is it a format with fewer problems than Standard. However this is all a different topic entirely so let's move this discussion elsewhere if you want to continue.
More importantly, Standard is a format comprised of only the most recent sets, so of course there's going to be a limit on diversity. So then it shouldn't come as a surprise when Standard is dominated by a few select archetypes. I think an important thing to note here is that despite two decks dominating this and the last SCG, we're not seeing one card being present in 60% of decks, like Smuggler's Copter was.
My buddy's shop is the PPTQ size biggest in the area shop. He supplies smaller satellite stores with product. We aren't talking about a small store that recently opened either. He's had a store for close to 20 years. This is the first month he's pushed Standard out. Khans standard events fired at 60 people on average for the win a case events.
Sunday's mystery repack draft drew 49 people. The Modern win a box on Friday had 65 people. He has a hall that seats 150 people that we have filled for events.
I've been a part of every Standard. Everyone of them. This is around the same level as post 5th Dawn attendance. The bans were good but the damage is done. Kaladesh having another likely ban is not a good look. If your car had a recall it's not because they did something right. Basic economics tells you that bans severely damage consumer confidence.
I don't think anyone is buying into standard constructed unless they are wanting to take a serious gamble on finding people to play against. The only thing people are waiting for are prices to drop on the few good cards they are after on the singles market and probably move on with their lives.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I seriously doubt we'll see more aggressive decks, since Pros tend to prefer playing Control or Combo. Unless we all missed something, I don't think an aggressive deck can thrive in a time with a plethora of 2-drop 2/3, especially when some of the have Deathtouch and/or lifelink (Winding Constrictor, Ayli, eternal Pilgrim, Gifted Aetherborn). What I expect to see is pros trying to break the most broken cards in Standard, namely Aetherworks Marvel and the CCLC.
Looks like you were wrong: PT Top 8 results are in with 6 aggro decks, all Mardu Vehicle builds.
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C Long Live Eldrazi C
Yes.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
I can understand situations like your friend's of Standard being seemingly dead. However I also think this situation is more a matter of location. There's a plethora of reasons of Standard not being popular and issues with the format itself are just a few. From what I've seen, Standard also tends to attract more competitive people and that also turns away more casual players. I'm sure if you look around your area you can find stores where Standard is very much alive but it'll likely be one with more serious players. Also Frontier is NOT necessarily cheaper to start with nor is it a format with fewer problems than Standard. However this is all a different topic entirely so let's move this discussion elsewhere if you want to continue.
More importantly, Standard is a format comprised of only the most recent sets, so of course there's going to be a limit on diversity. So then it shouldn't come as a surprise when Standard is dominated by a few select archetypes. I think an important thing to note here is that despite two decks dominating this and the last SCG, we're not seeing one card being present in 60% of decks, like Smuggler's Copter was.
My buddy's shop is the PPTQ size biggest in the area shop. He supplies smaller satellite stores with product. We aren't talking about a small store that recently opened either. He's had a store for close to 20 years. This is the first month he's pushed Standard out. Khans standard events fired at 60 people on average for the win a case events.
Sunday's mystery repack draft drew 49 people. The Modern win a box on Friday had 65 people. He has a hall that seats 150 people that we have filled for events.
I've been a part of every Standard. Everyone of them. This is around the same level as post 5th Dawn attendance. The bans were good but the damage is done. Kaladesh having another likely ban is not a good look. If your car had a recall it's not because they did something right. Basic economics tells you that bans severely damage consumer confidence.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I don't think anyone is buying into standard constructed unless they are wanting to take a serious gamble on finding people to play against. The only thing people are waiting for are prices to drop on the few good cards they are after on the singles market and probably move on with their lives.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Looks like you were wrong: PT Top 8 results are in with 6 aggro decks, all Mardu Vehicle builds.