I hope this means that they will print more color-specific hate.
That was always my favorite part of Magic: off-color hate like Lifebane Zombie, Witchstalker, or even Encase in Ice.
I agree, But I would like to see more global hate cards like Chill, Warmth, and Story circle. Perish, Hibernation would keep green creatures in check and gives A out against hexproof.
While I could see them printing the other color hate cards you specified Chill is just wayyy too strong, take it from someone who plays red decks like once in a blue moon. Chill is ridiculous getting one down on turn 2 just makes red slow down to a crawl and usually by the time they have enough mana to start casting spells again a second chill comes down and all of a sudden shock costs 5 mana.
The biggest problem with the card is red has no way to interact with chill besides trying to play more lands, it's similar to say Light of Day a card that basically just single handily destroyed any aggressive black deck since they had no way to interact with it.
Copter would have seen no play if lightning strike or doom blade was in the format. Reflector Mage is only good because there are no ETB creatures.
What other 2-drop would you play over Copter in a deck that played Copter, in a world where Lightning Strike and Doom Blade are legal?
Here's a hint, Copter is still more resilient to those spells than anything you would name, and has the highest upside of anything you would name, either. It's completely ridiculous to say that Copter wouldn't see play because of 2-mana spot removal. Harnessed Lightning already existed, was a strictly better Lightning Strike for the purposes of lining up against creatures, and was widely played in Kaladesh Standard, and Copter was still everywhere.
And Reflector Mage is great even against powerful ETBs on creatures. Siege Rhino was pushed completely out of the format in Oath of the Gatewatch Standard because of Reflector Mage, and Rhino was the poster boy of unnecessary, stupid good ETBs on good creatures for a year and a half. Hell, Reflector Mage was frequently used to bounce Ishkanah, Grafwidow when the two were in Standard together, and Ishkanah had an almost perfect ETB to line up against Mage. Your ETB effect would probably have to be literal Flametongue Kavu before your 4+ cmc creature lined up favorably against Reflector Mage. Making a token doesn't do it, because if the token is threatening enough to make bouncing your dude a bad proposition, they just bounce the token. Still leaves you the initial body, but then you played something like Wingmate Roc with no Raid trigger or Ishkanah with no Delirium - generally these are bad on rate without the token. Making multiple tokens doesn't do it either, bc multiple tokens can't actually be big enough to threaten Mage and his buddies (try to construct a fair 4-5 mana card that puts multiple tokens into play that are big enough to scare a mob of 2/3s), so you just bounce the token maker, run over the tokens and then still get an attack step with the board clear of those cards. Anything that doesn't affect the board is laughable.
There's no need to go overboard and make obviously false statements here. Yeah Standard's suffered mightily from the decline in quality of interactive spells, but your comments are ridiculous.
I've been out of constructed (cube only) since sometime around Shards block when they started the whole NWO thing and the powering-down of Magic (e.g. weaker burn, slower removal, weak counterspells, etc). I didn't like the decisions then and haven't played since. I've watch Wizards whiff again and again and again and I think it's because of the aforementioned paradigm shift. To see them admitting mistakes (seemingly frequently) leads me to believe these changes were, in fact, poorly planned and executed. I'm glad to see them acknowledging the problems of their near decade-long ***** fest and I'm excited to see how they remedy it.
1. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "NWO" is.
2. Many of the things you complain about haven't been problems for much of the time you haven't played. Zendikar 1, Scars, Innistrad and RtR had plenty of removal, counter, and extremely strong burn. Red Deck Wins was a staple for the better part of 4 years. So claiming a "decade" of messups is very very false.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Edit: Then again I never said anything about what NWO is, I simply mentioned it as it was a change in the world of mtg, but I see you want to be a really cool and angry magic nerd. You do you, bud!
This is flaming. Infraction issued. Please be thoughtful as to how you discuss topics with others. Thanks! -- Lugger
I remember red-white burn actually being a thing as a deck with good removal that was present as recently as RTR-Theros Block. As in, there was literally so much good burn that people built a deck out of it and it worked.
Khans is when I stopped playing standard and started seeing all the answers drastically decrease in quality. Not even leaving in Lightning Strike or a good equivalent to Hero's Downfall was what told me this.
Copter would have seen no play if lightning strike or doom blade was in the format. Reflector Mage is only good because there are no ETB creatures.
What other 2-drop would you play over Copter in a deck that played Copter, in a world where Lightning Strike and Doom Blade are legal?
Here's a hint, Copter is still more resilient to those spells than anything you would name, and has the highest upside of anything you would name, either. It's completely ridiculous to say that Copter wouldn't see play because of 2-mana spot removal. Harnessed Lightning already existed, was a strictly better Lightning Strike for the purposes of lining up against creatures, and was widely played in Kaladesh Standard, and Copter was still everywhere.
And Reflector Mage is great even against powerful ETBs on creatures. Siege Rhino was pushed completely out of the format in Oath of the Gatewatch Standard because of Reflector Mage, and Rhino was the poster boy of unnecessary, stupid good ETBs on good creatures for a year and a half. Hell, Reflector Mage was frequently used to bounce Ishkanah, Grafwidow when the two were in Standard together, and Ishkanah had an almost perfect ETB to line up against Mage. Your ETB effect would probably have to be literal Flametongue Kavu before your 4+ cmc creature lined up favorably against Reflector Mage. Making a token doesn't do it, because if the token is threatening enough to make bouncing your dude a bad proposition, they just bounce the token. Still leaves you the initial body, but then you played something like Wingmate Roc with no Raid trigger or Ishkanah with no Delirium - generally these are bad on rate without the token. Making multiple tokens doesn't do it either, bc multiple tokens can't actually be big enough to threaten Mage and his buddies (try to construct a fair 4-5 mana card that puts multiple tokens into play that are big enough to scare a mob of 2/3s), so you just bounce the token maker, run over the tokens and then still get an attack step with the board clear of those cards. Anything that doesn't affect the board is laughable.
There's no need to go overboard and make obviously false statements here. Yeah Standard's suffered mightily from the decline in quality of interactive spells, but your comments are ridiculous.
Copter is not worth the effort in standard if there was good removal. Playing on turn 2 is a tempo loss. Playing a non-ETB creature to crew it on turn 3 and it get shot immediately another tempo loss. No the card is all tempo loss. At the least mana you have paid 3 mana and 2 turns to do nothing and lose a card. Those numbers do not equal efficient. I'd pass for standard.
Rally pushed out Siege Rhino and Collective Company decks. Reflector Mage had nothing to do with it. Bouncing a creature has not been a good effect in well over 10 years because of ETB creatures. Collected Company lets RM make the cut in formats with ETB. It is not a direct result of RM alone. Every deck that plays RM in modern has a way to flash it into play.
Copter would have seen no play if lightning strike or doom blade was in the format. Reflector Mage is only good because there are no ETB creatures.
What other 2-drop would you play over Copter in a deck that played Copter, in a world where Lightning Strike and Doom Blade are legal?
Here's a hint, Copter is still more resilient to those spells than anything you would name, and has the highest upside of anything you would name, either. It's completely ridiculous to say that Copter wouldn't see play because of 2-mana spot removal. Harnessed Lightning already existed, was a strictly better Lightning Strike for the purposes of lining up against creatures, and was widely played in Kaladesh Standard, and Copter was still everywhere.
And Reflector Mage is great even against powerful ETBs on creatures. Siege Rhino was pushed completely out of the format in Oath of the Gatewatch Standard because of Reflector Mage, and Rhino was the poster boy of unnecessary, stupid good ETBs on good creatures for a year and a half. Hell, Reflector Mage was frequently used to bounce Ishkanah, Grafwidow when the two were in Standard together, and Ishkanah had an almost perfect ETB to line up against Mage. Your ETB effect would probably have to be literal Flametongue Kavu before your 4+ cmc creature lined up favorably against Reflector Mage. Making a token doesn't do it, because if the token is threatening enough to make bouncing your dude a bad proposition, they just bounce the token. Still leaves you the initial body, but then you played something like Wingmate Roc with no Raid trigger or Ishkanah with no Delirium - generally these are bad on rate without the token. Making multiple tokens doesn't do it either, bc multiple tokens can't actually be big enough to threaten Mage and his buddies (try to construct a fair 4-5 mana card that puts multiple tokens into play that are big enough to scare a mob of 2/3s), so you just bounce the token maker, run over the tokens and then still get an attack step with the board clear of those cards. Anything that doesn't affect the board is laughable.
There's no need to go overboard and make obviously false statements here. Yeah Standard's suffered mightily from the decline in quality of interactive spells, but your comments are ridiculous.
Copter is not worth the effort in standard if there was good removal. Playing on turn 2 is a tempo loss. Playing a non-ETB creature to crew it on turn 3 and it get shot immediately another tempo loss. No the card is all tempo loss. At the least mana you have paid 3 mana and 2 turns to do nothing and lose a card. Those numbers do not equal efficient. I'd pass for standard.
Rally pushed out Siege Rhino and Collective Company decks. Reflector Mage had nothing to do with it. Bouncing a creature has not been a good effect in well over 10 years because of ETB creatures. Collected Company lets RM make the cut in formats with ETB. It is not a direct result of RM alone. Every deck that plays RM in modern has a way to flash it into play.
If you pay two mana for a card and then your opponent pays two mana to answer that card, then that is by definition not tempo loss. Crewing your vehicles is also not a tempo loss if you cannot or don't want to attack or block over a turn cycle.
If anything, casting Copter was net positive tempo. If they pass the T2 with removal up, casting Copter wastes their mana for that turn. Then T3, they have to decide if they want to continue holding up removal to kill Copter or advance the board. If they hold up removal again, you can push them further by simply not crewing. They can either waste even more mana or kill your lesser target. Was that their only answer in hand for Copter? Maybe. Plenty of games I've used this technic to take the initiative away from decks. It becomes tough for them if they don't play it correctly, because those wasted turns make it harder to catch up, since I was progressing the board each turn.
They are actually going further away from color-specific hate by phasing out things like Protection from ______ and Landwalk. According to Maro's last column, both of those keywords are on their way out as part of a larger philosophy to not just randomly punish people for playing a color (or the corresponding basic land). I think that if they do swing things back towards being more answer-centric, color will not play a big part of that.
There are other posts to quote for this same response, but I'm lazy. Anyways,
There is a huge difference between a spell that hates a color and a permanent that hates a color. Protection from __, Landwalk, and the enchantment pseudo-cycles (Chill etc) were too powerful and had the potential to shut down strategies for colors that couldn't answer the hoser (how is red going to get rid of an enchantment?). That said, giving instants/sorceries color-hate should totally still be on the table even under the philosophy of Balance, especially if its modal hate, like a red spell "Deal 2 damage or Deal 4 damage if it's blue and/or white (or artifact)." The card can be balanced one way, with upside for the specific situations R+D respected it would be needed for.
They are actually going further away from color-specific hate by phasing out things like Protection from ______ and Landwalk. According to Maro's last column, both of those keywords are on their way out as part of a larger philosophy to not just randomly punish people for playing a color (or the corresponding basic land). I think that if they do swing things back towards being more answer-centric, color will not play a big part of that.
There are other posts to quote for this same response, but I'm lazy. Anyways,
There is a huge difference between a spell that hates a color and a permanent that hates a color. Protection from __, Landwalk, and the enchantment pseudo-cycles (Chill etc) were too powerful and had the potential to shut down strategies for colors that couldn't answer the hoser (how is red going to get rid of an enchantment?). That said, giving instants/sorceries color-hate should totally still be on the table even under the philosophy of Balance, especially if its modal hate, like a red spell "Deal 2 damage or Deal 4 damage if it's blue and/or white (or artifact)." The card can be balanced one way, with upside for the specific situations R+D respected it would be needed for.
I don't disagree with this, but I think that WotC's current direction says that they do. Instant/Sorcery based color-hate has been around a long time and can range in effectiveness from the potentially backbreaking (Boil, Perish, etc.) to the less-good but still very effective (Deathmark, Flashfreeze, etc.). I think that there is a happy medium there somewhere, but it remains to be seen as to whether they go down that path. My guess is that the current answer is no.
I was looking over some early mtgo match ups and I'm now more concerned about what is going to happen if they ban felidar guardian. Blue white control is very strong right now and delirium counters seems anomalous given the current card pool. If combo gets nuked and aggro never gets a foothold thanks to the copter ban standard may be in for a rough couple months.
Then again I'm sounding like desolator on YouTube so I could be wrong.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Another kind of enemy color hate I would like to see come back is cards like Massacre.
WOTC would sooner ban every single card from standard than print cards like massacre again... and for a good reason too. There's literally 0% chance of this happening so don't keep your hopes up.
Some parts of this were conscious, like pushing story cards and new card types, and some were a result of moving to two-block world and removing the core set where we traditionally put many of the answers to these kinds of cards. We learned a lot from the last three blocks on how the two-block world should work and are incorporating those ideas into future sets.
This concerns me, the fact that they claimed to have learned from it is good, but the fact that they missed something this obvious is terrible.
In my opinion, we need the following cards, renamed copies, or strictly better versions to be always in Standard:
Murder Cancel Shatter Naturalize
A white card that also gets rid of artifacts and enchantments for 2 or 3 cmc, along the lines of something like Disenchant or Solemn Offering Shock
A black instant speed spell that destroys a good chunk of target creature options in the format for 2 or less cmc such as Fatal Push or Go for the Throat.
A red X damage creature spell that can take out large enough creatures if you have the mana to overcome their toughness along the lines of Heat Ray so red has at least an option for late-game answers for large creatures in theory (and at least that efficient in terms of mana for damage, although it could be a sorcery rather than an instant)
A red creature damaging spell for 4 or less mana that deals at least 4 damage to a target creature, likely 3 or 4 cmc, but a mix of situational versions (like separate spells that target flying and non-flying for lower cmc) would be acceptable for this slot. An example could be Flame Lash.
Something less than 5 cmc that can exile non-land permanents or a rough equivalent to get around things like indestructible, if the indestructible or similar mechanics exist in the format. Could be sorcery speed. An example could be Banishing Light.
Something less than 4 cmc that can cause a sacrifice of a permanent type that has hexproof cards in the format, probably should be instant speed unless it causes multiple sacrifices without going over 3 cmc, things like Diabolic Edict if the format has hexproof creatures or Tribute to the Wild for hexproof artifacts or enchantments.
A white spell that kills attacking creature(s) of any size for 3 or less cmc, such as Celestial Flare or Rebuke.
A board wipe at least as good as Day of Judgment (in most formats) or Fumigate (in super slow ones), although the board wipe in question doesn't have to be white, it could be black or mixed color, it does have to be a full on board-wipe, not just a Languish or Anger of the Gods.
Black or white (possibly both) partial board-wipes along the lines of Languish, and at least one red one, along the lines of Anger of the Gods.
A green equivalent to a fight effect that is efficient enough to see play if needed by mono-green decks, such as Prey Upon or Savage Punch.
Above average grave hate that can hit multiple things relatively easily either in -every- color or as an artifact that is at least one cmc less than the cheapest reanimation card. White might exile from the graveyard straight up with no other effects, blue might shuffle back into the library alongside some other effect, black might exile while getting some benefit, red might exile stuff from the graveyard alongside dealing damage elsewhere, green might have some creature that can trigger a graveyard bits exiling ability that gets some benefit from it like something that eats stuff out of the graveyard. It just has to be able to be played before reanimation can come online and not be exclusive to certain decks based on color choices. It could not exist if the format lacks reanimation. Examples include something like Relic of Progenitus at the higher and easier to design end in a format with powerful reanimation.
Black discard, stuff to get all the different relevant cards, like a combination of Duress and Ostracize. Or some other way for black to deal with non-creature strategies involving artifacts and enchantments at the very least.
Something along the lines of negate, although it doesn't have to catch all non-creature spells, just all non-permanent ones that you can't answer after they enter the battlefield, such as an equivalent to negate that only countered instant or sorcery spells and is at least as mana efficient
Something white that at instant speed destroys enchantments for 2 cmc or less, such as Cursebreak.
Ways for red to deal with non-creature enchantment strategies that exist in the format, such as racing under them.
Some kind of option for non-blue colors to deal with any things like ETB or instant/sorcery based strategies that don't care about removal, such as the appropriate hate-bears, discard for black, etc.
Another kind of enemy color hate I would like to see come back is cards like Massacre.
WOTC would sooner ban every single card from standard than print cards like massacre again... and for a good reason too. There's literally 0% chance of this happening so don't keep your hopes up.
Free is too powerful. Looking at Wizards work, they could implement a mana cost reduction or alternative mana cost if the condition is met. It could be a card that can deal with something like a creature but is cheaper if it is dealing with an enemy color creature.
Hi guys, personally I don't think the lack of removal is the problem with standard. The "narrowing" of removals and the lack of card advantage utility creatures in red and green is the problem.
For example, if ancient grudge or naturalise was standard legal and reflector Mage and smuggler thopter is still unbanned, UW flyers would still be unaffected. Even with abrupt decay available it would still not change the equation. But if it was maniac vandal or reclamation sage, it would be very different. Not only do you remove their turn 2 play but have put in a creature and advance your board position. You can even destroy the clue token when the opponent is tapped out just for some value. But the fact is that wizard is pushing the vehicle sub type as a way to innovate the game. However they are pushing it way too much, so much so that you don't even have an acidic slime equivalent at 5 cmc other than release the gremlins which is played now in 4c copy cat and mardu.
They should have just printed utility creaturea at 4 cmc. Vehicles would still be played but the game will be more balance other than emrakul. For that, a generic graveyard hate would solve the problem especially since they have aetherwork marvel.
Every problem with the current standard is a direct result from having bad removal. None of these cards are spectacular in any way. Copter would have seen no play if lightning strike or doom blade was in the format. Reflector Mage is only good because there are no ETB creatures. Every creature is a vanilla with some activated cost tacked on. Emrakul would also never have been an issue if there was any kind of graveyard hate.
Look at the bans for Standard in the past. Skullclamp, JTMS, and Academy. ******* copter? Really?
That would be one very interesting "jail" talk, JTMS introduces who they all are, This is Skullclamp he was every creature decks favorite equipment but basically turned every one toughness creature in to a mini astral recall, This is Memory Jar he pushed a fast format in to a format where early game was the handshake, mid game was the dice roll and late game turn one. Over here is Arcbound Ravager he created an agro deck that could if you ran out of steam transform in to a combo one and every land produced at least 2 mana! So tell us friend what impact have you had on our world that you were cast down here for.... "Well we made an turn four copycat combo that would fold to any kind of removal and had a good mid range deck that dominated the format.
"wow have things have changed, maybe its better we are stuck down here, I am not sure how people would react if their was a type two with any of US legal again....
Also good to admit the mistake thats the first step I hope they follow through and FIX said mistake though.
Some parts of this were conscious, like pushing story cards and new card types, and some were a result of moving to two-block world and removing the core set where we traditionally put many of the answers to these kinds of cards. We learned a lot from the last three blocks on how the two-block world should work and are incorporating those ideas into future sets.
This concerns me, the fact that they claimed to have learned from it is good, but the fact that they missed something this obvious is terrible.
In my opinion, we need the following cards, renamed copies, or strictly better versions to be always in Standard:
Murder Cancel Shatter Naturalize
A white card that also gets rid of artifacts and enchantments for 2 or 3 cmc, along the lines of something like Disenchant or Solemn Offering Shock
A black instant speed spell that destroys a good chunk of target creature options in the format for 2 or less cmc such as Fatal Push or Go for the Throat.
A red X damage creature spell that can take out large enough creatures if you have the mana to overcome their toughness along the lines of Heat Ray so red has at least an option for late-game answers for large creatures in theory (and at least that efficient in terms of mana for damage, although it could be a sorcery rather than an instant)
A red creature damaging spell for 4 or less mana that deals at least 4 damage to a target creature, likely 3 or 4 cmc, but a mix of situational versions (like separate spells that target flying and non-flying for lower cmc) would be acceptable for this slot. An example could be Flame Lash.
Something less than 5 cmc that can exile non-land permanents or a rough equivalent to get around things like indestructible, if the indestructible or similar mechanics exist in the format. Could be sorcery speed. An example could be Banishing Light.
Something less than 4 cmc that can cause a sacrifice of a permanent type that has hexproof cards in the format, probably should be instant speed unless it causes multiple sacrifices without going over 3 cmc, things like Diabolic Edict if the format has hexproof creatures or Tribute to the Wild for hexproof artifacts or enchantments.
A white spell that kills attacking creature(s) of any size for 3 or less cmc, such as Celestial Flare or Rebuke.
A board wipe at least as good as Day of Judgment (in most formats) or Fumigate (in super slow ones), although the board wipe in question doesn't have to be white, it could be black or mixed color, it does have to be a full on board-wipe, not just a Languish or Anger of the Gods.
Black or white (possibly both) partial board-wipes along the lines of Languish, and at least one red one, along the lines of Anger of the Gods.
A green equivalent to a fight effect that is efficient enough to see play if needed by mono-green decks, such as Prey Upon or Savage Punch.
Above average grave hate that can hit multiple things relatively easily either in -every- color or as an artifact that is at least one cmc less than the cheapest reanimation card. White might exile from the graveyard straight up with no other effects, blue might shuffle back into the library alongside some other effect, black might exile while getting some benefit, red might exile stuff from the graveyard alongside dealing damage elsewhere, green might have some creature that can trigger a graveyard bits exiling ability that gets some benefit from it like something that eats stuff out of the graveyard. It just has to be able to be played before reanimation can come online and not be exclusive to certain decks based on color choices. It could not exist if the format lacks reanimation. Examples include something like Relic of Progenitus at the higher and easier to design end in a format with powerful reanimation.
Black discard, stuff to get all the different relevant cards, like a combination of Duress and Ostracize. Or some other way for black to deal with non-creature strategies involving artifacts and enchantments at the very least.
Something along the lines of negate, although it doesn't have to catch all non-creature spells, just all non-permanent ones that you can't answer after they enter the battlefield, such as an equivalent to negate that only countered instant or sorcery spells and is at least as mana efficient
Something white that at instant speed destroys enchantments for 2 cmc or less, such as Cursebreak.
Ways for red to deal with non-creature enchantment strategies that exist in the format, such as racing under them.
Some kind of option for non-blue colors to deal with any things like ETB or instant/sorcery based strategies that don't care about removal, such as the appropriate hate-bears, discard for black, etc.
This is what core sets were for. They assured every color could more or less do what it was supposed to do. Sure, we do have the novelty disenchant with cycling or the novelty mana leak with investigate, and that's great for limited, but the shift to reprinting for other formats really shows in nowadays standard. I don't tink core sets will be returning anytime soon and reprint slots in new sets are quite limited. The only space I can think where Wizards can do some fine tuning in this regard is welcome decks.
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The biggest problem with the card is red has no way to interact with chill besides trying to play more lands, it's similar to say Light of Day a card that basically just single handily destroyed any aggressive black deck since they had no way to interact with it.
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What other 2-drop would you play over Copter in a deck that played Copter, in a world where Lightning Strike and Doom Blade are legal?
Here's a hint, Copter is still more resilient to those spells than anything you would name, and has the highest upside of anything you would name, either. It's completely ridiculous to say that Copter wouldn't see play because of 2-mana spot removal. Harnessed Lightning already existed, was a strictly better Lightning Strike for the purposes of lining up against creatures, and was widely played in Kaladesh Standard, and Copter was still everywhere.
And Reflector Mage is great even against powerful ETBs on creatures. Siege Rhino was pushed completely out of the format in Oath of the Gatewatch Standard because of Reflector Mage, and Rhino was the poster boy of unnecessary, stupid good ETBs on good creatures for a year and a half. Hell, Reflector Mage was frequently used to bounce Ishkanah, Grafwidow when the two were in Standard together, and Ishkanah had an almost perfect ETB to line up against Mage. Your ETB effect would probably have to be literal Flametongue Kavu before your 4+ cmc creature lined up favorably against Reflector Mage. Making a token doesn't do it, because if the token is threatening enough to make bouncing your dude a bad proposition, they just bounce the token. Still leaves you the initial body, but then you played something like Wingmate Roc with no Raid trigger or Ishkanah with no Delirium - generally these are bad on rate without the token. Making multiple tokens doesn't do it either, bc multiple tokens can't actually be big enough to threaten Mage and his buddies (try to construct a fair 4-5 mana card that puts multiple tokens into play that are big enough to scare a mob of 2/3s), so you just bounce the token maker, run over the tokens and then still get an attack step with the board clear of those cards. Anything that doesn't affect the board is laughable.
There's no need to go overboard and make obviously false statements here. Yeah Standard's suffered mightily from the decline in quality of interactive spells, but your comments are ridiculous.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
1. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "NWO" is.
2. Many of the things you complain about haven't been problems for much of the time you haven't played. Zendikar 1, Scars, Innistrad and RtR had plenty of removal, counter, and extremely strong burn. Red Deck Wins was a staple for the better part of 4 years. So claiming a "decade" of messups is very very false.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Edit: Then again I never said anything about what NWO is, I simply mentioned it as it was a change in the world of mtg, but I see you want to be a really cool and angry magic nerd. You do you, bud!
This is flaming. Infraction issued. Please be thoughtful as to how you discuss topics with others. Thanks! -- Lugger
Khans is when I stopped playing standard and started seeing all the answers drastically decrease in quality. Not even leaving in Lightning Strike or a good equivalent to Hero's Downfall was what told me this.
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Copter is not worth the effort in standard if there was good removal. Playing on turn 2 is a tempo loss. Playing a non-ETB creature to crew it on turn 3 and it get shot immediately another tempo loss. No the card is all tempo loss. At the least mana you have paid 3 mana and 2 turns to do nothing and lose a card. Those numbers do not equal efficient. I'd pass for standard.
Rally pushed out Siege Rhino and Collective Company decks. Reflector Mage had nothing to do with it. Bouncing a creature has not been a good effect in well over 10 years because of ETB creatures. Collected Company lets RM make the cut in formats with ETB. It is not a direct result of RM alone. Every deck that plays RM in modern has a way to flash it into play.
If you pay two mana for a card and then your opponent pays two mana to answer that card, then that is by definition not tempo loss. Crewing your vehicles is also not a tempo loss if you cannot or don't want to attack or block over a turn cycle.
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Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
There are other posts to quote for this same response, but I'm lazy. Anyways,
There is a huge difference between a spell that hates a color and a permanent that hates a color. Protection from __, Landwalk, and the enchantment pseudo-cycles (Chill etc) were too powerful and had the potential to shut down strategies for colors that couldn't answer the hoser (how is red going to get rid of an enchantment?). That said, giving instants/sorceries color-hate should totally still be on the table even under the philosophy of Balance, especially if its modal hate, like a red spell "Deal 2 damage or Deal 4 damage if it's blue and/or white (or artifact)." The card can be balanced one way, with upside for the specific situations R+D respected it would be needed for.
I don't disagree with this, but I think that WotC's current direction says that they do. Instant/Sorcery based color-hate has been around a long time and can range in effectiveness from the potentially backbreaking (Boil, Perish, etc.) to the less-good but still very effective (Deathmark, Flashfreeze, etc.). I think that there is a happy medium there somewhere, but it remains to be seen as to whether they go down that path. My guess is that the current answer is no.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Then again I'm sounding like desolator on YouTube so I could be wrong.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
WOTC would sooner ban every single card from standard than print cards like massacre again... and for a good reason too. There's literally 0% chance of this happening so don't keep your hopes up.
Youtube Channel
This concerns me, the fact that they claimed to have learned from it is good, but the fact that they missed something this obvious is terrible.
In my opinion, we need the following cards, renamed copies, or strictly better versions to be always in Standard:
Murder
Cancel
Shatter
Naturalize
A white card that also gets rid of artifacts and enchantments for 2 or 3 cmc, along the lines of something like Disenchant or Solemn Offering
Shock
A black instant speed spell that destroys a good chunk of target creature options in the format for 2 or less cmc such as Fatal Push or Go for the Throat.
A red X damage creature spell that can take out large enough creatures if you have the mana to overcome their toughness along the lines of Heat Ray so red has at least an option for late-game answers for large creatures in theory (and at least that efficient in terms of mana for damage, although it could be a sorcery rather than an instant)
A red creature damaging spell for 4 or less mana that deals at least 4 damage to a target creature, likely 3 or 4 cmc, but a mix of situational versions (like separate spells that target flying and non-flying for lower cmc) would be acceptable for this slot. An example could be Flame Lash.
Something less than 5 cmc that can exile non-land permanents or a rough equivalent to get around things like indestructible, if the indestructible or similar mechanics exist in the format. Could be sorcery speed. An example could be Banishing Light.
Something less than 4 cmc that can cause a sacrifice of a permanent type that has hexproof cards in the format, probably should be instant speed unless it causes multiple sacrifices without going over 3 cmc, things like Diabolic Edict if the format has hexproof creatures or Tribute to the Wild for hexproof artifacts or enchantments.
A white spell that kills attacking creature(s) of any size for 3 or less cmc, such as Celestial Flare or Rebuke.
A board wipe at least as good as Day of Judgment (in most formats) or Fumigate (in super slow ones), although the board wipe in question doesn't have to be white, it could be black or mixed color, it does have to be a full on board-wipe, not just a Languish or Anger of the Gods.
Black or white (possibly both) partial board-wipes along the lines of Languish, and at least one red one, along the lines of Anger of the Gods.
A green equivalent to a fight effect that is efficient enough to see play if needed by mono-green decks, such as Prey Upon or Savage Punch.
Above average grave hate that can hit multiple things relatively easily either in -every- color or as an artifact that is at least one cmc less than the cheapest reanimation card. White might exile from the graveyard straight up with no other effects, blue might shuffle back into the library alongside some other effect, black might exile while getting some benefit, red might exile stuff from the graveyard alongside dealing damage elsewhere, green might have some creature that can trigger a graveyard bits exiling ability that gets some benefit from it like something that eats stuff out of the graveyard. It just has to be able to be played before reanimation can come online and not be exclusive to certain decks based on color choices. It could not exist if the format lacks reanimation. Examples include something like Relic of Progenitus at the higher and easier to design end in a format with powerful reanimation.
Black discard, stuff to get all the different relevant cards, like a combination of Duress and Ostracize. Or some other way for black to deal with non-creature strategies involving artifacts and enchantments at the very least.
Something along the lines of negate, although it doesn't have to catch all non-creature spells, just all non-permanent ones that you can't answer after they enter the battlefield, such as an equivalent to negate that only countered instant or sorcery spells and is at least as mana efficient
Something white that at instant speed destroys enchantments for 2 cmc or less, such as Cursebreak.
Ways for red to deal with non-creature enchantment strategies that exist in the format, such as racing under them.
Some kind of option for non-blue colors to deal with any things like ETB or instant/sorcery based strategies that don't care about removal, such as the appropriate hate-bears, discard for black, etc.
Free is too powerful. Looking at Wizards work, they could implement a mana cost reduction or alternative mana cost if the condition is met. It could be a card that can deal with something like a creature but is cheaper if it is dealing with an enemy color creature.
For example, if ancient grudge or naturalise was standard legal and reflector Mage and smuggler thopter is still unbanned, UW flyers would still be unaffected. Even with abrupt decay available it would still not change the equation. But if it was maniac vandal or reclamation sage, it would be very different. Not only do you remove their turn 2 play but have put in a creature and advance your board position. You can even destroy the clue token when the opponent is tapped out just for some value. But the fact is that wizard is pushing the vehicle sub type as a way to innovate the game. However they are pushing it way too much, so much so that you don't even have an acidic slime equivalent at 5 cmc other than release the gremlins which is played now in 4c copy cat and mardu.
They should have just printed utility creaturea at 4 cmc. Vehicles would still be played but the game will be more balance other than emrakul. For that, a generic graveyard hate would solve the problem especially since they have aetherwork marvel.
That would be one very interesting "jail" talk, JTMS introduces who they all are, This is Skullclamp he was every creature decks favorite equipment but basically turned every one toughness creature in to a mini astral recall, This is Memory Jar he pushed a fast format in to a format where early game was the handshake, mid game was the dice roll and late game turn one. Over here is Arcbound Ravager he created an agro deck that could if you ran out of steam transform in to a combo one and every land produced at least 2 mana! So tell us friend what impact have you had on our world that you were cast down here for.... "Well we made an turn four copycat combo that would fold to any kind of removal and had a good mid range deck that dominated the format.
"wow have things have changed, maybe its better we are stuck down here, I am not sure how people would react if their was a type two with any of US legal again....
Also good to admit the mistake thats the first step I hope they follow through and FIX said mistake though.
This is what core sets were for. They assured every color could more or less do what it was supposed to do. Sure, we do have the novelty disenchant with cycling or the novelty mana leak with investigate, and that's great for limited, but the shift to reprinting for other formats really shows in nowadays standard. I don't tink core sets will be returning anytime soon and reprint slots in new sets are quite limited. The only space I can think where Wizards can do some fine tuning in this regard is welcome decks.